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You must think that 300 million guns that are already out there are going to disappear.Gang bangers don't usually go to gun stores to buy their weapons. In fact, they don't usually BUY their weapons, they steal them. After all, they ARE criminals, no?
Yes so they carry the most common guns. If those become guns with mags that hold 10 or less that is what the gang banger will typically have.
No not at all, but they all sure don't have hi cap mags either. If there was a limit in place all the hi cap mags would be hoarded by the gun nuts. Pretty soon they would be hard for criminals to get. Those in criminal hands now will eventually fall into police hands and be destroyed.
Would they be as hard to get as fully automatic Russian rifles in France, a country with stricter gun control than the United States....where the guys who got the guns...one was already a convicted criminal, and both were on the governments terrorist watch list....I'm sure they had no trouble getting standard magazines to go with their illegal, fully automatic rifles........and their rocket propelled grenade, and hand grenades...dittos for the other gunmen in France who have also killed people, but whose stories haven't been covered by the U.S. media......or the terrorist in Belium....another country with strict gun control......and another terrorist who had no problem getting military grade rifles and magazines....
Those stories show your notions are silly Brain.....France and Belgium have far stricter bans on civilian ownership of handguns, fully automatic rifles, standard magazines, rocket propelled grenades, and hand grenades.....and the criminals who wanted them had no trouble getting them.....
How do you explain that Brain.....?
And as shown by France.....if there is a desire for standard magazines...criminals will get them, when they want them.....the only people who won't get them are law abiding citizens...the ones who aren't abusing them now.....
How do you explain the mass shooter in CA not bothering to get all those things and using 10 round magazines? And if they have to illegally buy things there is a chance they are caught illegally buying and stopped before anyone dies.
Gang bangers don't usually go to gun stores to buy their weapons. In fact, they don't usually BUY their weapons, they steal them. After all, they ARE criminals, no?What you are really doing is arming mass shooters and gang bangers.
Yes so they carry the most common guns. If those become guns with mags that hold 10 or less that is what the gang banger will typically have.
even if you could ban 10 round magazines...and crimials actually complied with the law.......then they would use multiple ten round magazines or attack in groups....considering how that video showed a guy with 6 revolvers laying down fire as fast as a guy with one semi auto handgun....and revolvers only have 5 or 6 bullets.....
Your idea is just...dumb...Brain...with all due respect....
You are ignoring what has happened. Gifford and other shooters stopped at reload. Kids escaped at newtown while shooter reloaded. Fewer strays would be flying everywhere in drive buys. Nothing dumb about saving lives and I have real examples where it would have saved lives.
And I have as many or more where people were killed attacking mass shooters empty handed because you guys kept them from having guns...while your laws did nothing to stop the killers from getting guns and magazines that they wanted....Giffords...shot from a crowd....they got lucky...apparently your Long Island train example is wrong since he was out of ammo when he was rushed.....and reloaded at least once and kept killing, even in the crowded train....
Reread Masaad Ayoob's piece...he also points out that even if you rush the guy....you have to be able to physically defeat him then...all while he is drawing another gun......
The real solution...end stupid gun free killing zones....then the killers won't even show up to kill people.....problem solved, lives saved......
And if they can't keep fully automatic weapons out of the hands of 2 terrorists, both of whom were on a government anti terror watch list, in strict, gun controlled France.......why on earth do you think you could keep them out of the hands of gang bangers who bring in billions of dollars of drugs into this country every year? Just nuts.......
More....
Physical Mismatches
If you’re close enough to grab the offender as soon as he starts shooting — and actually know how to do it — you have a reasonable chance of succeeding. Unfortunately if you’re close, you’ll very likely be one of the first victims of his criminal gunfire, perhaps before you can act. There is also the matter of relative physical strength. In the Loukaitis incident, an adult male gym teacher was able to overpower a 14-year-old boy who, judging by his photos, was physically unintimidating.
In the Drega murders, Dennis Joos wasn’t a physically large or especially strong man, and was up against a rugged, muscular killer who stood over 6’ tall and weighed well over 200 pounds.
Massad Ayoob is always a great source when dealing with anti gun nuttery....
A pioneer in the concept of lone-officer response to active mass murder incidents, he’s one of the nation’s leading authorities on this sort of terrible event. When he and I were both instructing at the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association (ILEETA) conference earlier this year, I asked him how many of the mass killers he studied had been armed with multiple guns. “Well over half,” he answered.
This isn’t new. One of the worst mass murderers in American history goes back to Civil War times, “Bloody Bill” Anderson, a senior officer in Quantrill’s Raiders. The trademark of these guerrillas was carrying multiple revolvers, usually .36-caliber Navy Colts. When he was killed in a shootout with Union troops, an eyewitness to Anderson’s death said, “Bloody Bill had four revolvers buckled around him and two very large ones across the saddle.”
And when the Giffords shooter tried to reload he was stopped. Sorry but your expert is wrong because it has happened.
In Colebrook, N.H., a bitter old man named Carl Drega went on a murder rampage, assassinating two state troopers and a female judge he hated. As he left the latter murder scene, newspaper editor Dennis Joos attempted to get his rifle away from him. Drega reportedly snarled, “Mind your own f—ing business,” threw Joos to the sidewalk, and killed him with multiple gunshots. After a manhunt in which multiple lawmen were wounded, Drega was shot and killed by police.
You must think that 300 million guns that are already out there are going to disappear.Gang bangers don't usually go to gun stores to buy their weapons. In fact, they don't usually BUY their weapons, they steal them. After all, they ARE criminals, no?
Yes so they carry the most common guns. If those become guns with mags that hold 10 or less that is what the gang banger will typically have.
No not at all, but they all sure don't have hi cap mags either. If there was a limit in place all the hi cap mags would be hoarded by the gun nuts. Pretty soon they would be hard for criminals to get. Those in criminal hands now will eventually fall into police hands and be destroyed.
Brain...I will let the Master handle your idea....
Disarming Mass Murderers American Handgunner
Disarming Mass Murderers
Situation:
Some gun grabbers seek magazine capacity limits, citing the theory it’ll force mass murderers to reload sooner — allowing them to be disarmed by citizens and thus reducing potential death toll.
Lesson:
There are faster ways to stop mass murderers; disarming is a risky strategy at best. In most cases, mass murderers and spree killers carry multiple guns — and they’re not going to give them up to unarmed citizens.
When legislation is introduced to ban or criminalize so-called “high-capacity magazines,” one argument always cited by gun grabbers is it will force mass-murderers to reload sooner — creating a window of opportunity in which some heroic citizen can disarm them and stop the killing. There are, of course, several things wrong with this hypothesis. One is the unrealistic assumption someone who’s willing to commit mass murder won’t be willing to access and use an illegal magazine.
Tactically, how likely is it there will be someone close enough to jump a gunman caught at slide-lock without the rescuer already (being in such close proximity to the murderer) shot before he could even make the disarming attempt? To find the answer, we have to look deeply into the history of such incidents.
Disarms During Reloading … or Not?
Two incidents seem to be most often cited by those who demand reduced magazine capacity. One is the capture of Jared Loughner after the murder spree in Tucson in which he killed six people and wounded a dozen more, including US Representative Gabrielle Giffords. The other is the capture of Colin Ferguson, which ended the Long Island Railroad train massacre, which claimed six lives and left 19 more people wounded.
In each case, multiple people were able to overpower the killer at a point when his weapon was no longer shootable. It should be noted, however, accounts of how it happened seem to differ among the witnesses. In the case of Loughner, we know Patricia Maisch ended up holding one of his magazines. Some of Ms. Maisch’s accounts make it sound as if she ripped it from his hand, while in others, she seems to say he dropped it and she picked it up.
However, Loughner was carrying multiple magazines, and at least one witness insists he had already reloaded a fresh magazine — but had somehow jammed the Glock 19 while attempting to complete the reload. In the Long Island Railroad massacre, Ferguson reloaded at least once and sustained fire. His Ruger P89 had apparently run dry at the time he was rushed and overpowered by unarmed citizens. Accounts differ as to whether Ferguson was attempting to reload a third full magazine at this time, or had shot all his magazines empty and was trying to insert loose cartridges into one of the empty mags.
Thus, it remains possible Loughner was successfully disarmed, not because he was reloading per se, but because he had jammed his already-reloaded gun. If in fact Ferguson had run out of loaded magazines, he was de facto more “out of ammunition” than he was “reloading” at the time he was overpowered and disarmed. Details, details …
There have been successful disarms in public shootings; let’s take a look.
Successful Disarms
In Moses Lake, Wash., 14-year-old Barry Loukaitis opened fire at the middle school he attended. Armed with a .30-30 rifle, .357 Magnum revolver, .25 auto and 78 rounds of ammunition, he killed three victims and wounded a fourth before a gym coach was able to wrestle the rifle away from him and hold him down. Note: the courageous gym teacher didn’t let the murderer keep shooting and killing until he ran empty — he got the .30-30 away from the young murderer while it was still loaded. If you’re going to attempt a disarm, this strategy would seem likely to save the most lives.
In June 2014, Aaron Ybarra, 26, opened fire at Seattle Pacific University. He killed one and injured three, and was then pepper-sprayed and overpowered by student monitor Jon Meis. According to one report, the killer’s weapon was a double-barrel shotgun, in poor repair and capable of firing only one barrel — for all practical intents and purposes, a single-shot weapon. While this in no way detracts from the courage displayed by the heroic Jon Meis, it’s not common for mass murderers to use single-shot weapons.
Another young hero to emerge from a mass murder atrocity is Jacob Ryker. Kip Kinkel, 15, murdered his parents and gained control of a Ruger 10/22 rifle, Ruger MK II .22 pistol and 9mm Glock 19. He took them to his school in Springfield, Ore., with an ample supply of ammunition and opened fire. His barrage had killed four people and wounded 25 more when one of those wounded students, young Mr. Ryker, jumped him as the killer reloaded the rifle.
However, Kinkel had armed himself with multiple weapons. During the struggle, he drew the 9mm and fired, wounding Ryker again and also another student. Then according to accounts, Ryker, now joined by six other students, was able to finally disarm him and gain physical control. By then, Kinkel had fired a total of 51 rounds, 37 of which struck human targets.
When It Goes Wrong
Getting a gun away from a killer isn’t easy. Good people have died in the attempt. In the Luby’s Cafeteria massacre in Killeen, Texas, George Hennard drove his pickup truck through the plate glass window of the restaurant and stepped out with a Ruger P89 and a Glock 17. He shot 43 people, 23 fatally. In the midst of the slaughter, Al Hupp attempted to disarm the madman.
He wasn’t successful. Hennard shot him in the chest with one of the pistols, mortally wounding him. As Hupp’s wife cradled her dying husband, Hennard shot her dead too. When police arrived and he tasted return fire, Hennard killed himself.
This atrocity occurred before the passage of shall-issue concealed carry in Texas. Suzanna Gratia-Hupp, the murdered couple’s daughter, had left her S&W .38 in her parked vehicle according to Texas law. She was certain she could have neutralized Hennard early in the encounter had her gun been within reach. Instead, she endured the horror of watching her parents murdered. Ever since, Suzanna Gratia-Hupp has been one of our most eloquent and poignant spokespersons for armed citizens and lawful concealed carry.
Perhaps the most glaringly conspicuous failure to disarm occurred during the mass murder that most tore at America’s heart: Sandy Hook. The first to die was petite school principal Dawn Hochsprung. As quintessential loser Adam Lanza blasted his way through the locked door of the school, she ran at him in what could only be construed as an attempt to disarm and restrain.
She apparently never got within touching distance before he shot her down. Later, with 20 helpless children and six brave but helpless adults dead at his hands, he blew his brains out as soon as police arrived.
In Colebrook, N.H., a bitter old man named Carl Drega went on a murder rampage, assassinating two state troopers and a female judge he hated. As he left the latter murder scene, newspaper editor Dennis Joos attempted to get his rifle away from him. Drega reportedly snarled, “Mind your own f—ing business,” threw Joos to the sidewalk, and killed him with multiple gunshots. After a manhunt in which multiple lawmen were wounded, Drega was shot and killed by police.
What about verbally convincing the gunman to just put down the gun? This strategy doesn’t have a promising history. In 2013, a 12-year-old boy came to school with a gun in Sparks, Nev. Teacher Michael Landsberry tried to “talk him down.” The boy shot and killed the teacher, and then committed suicide.
And the article continues...well worth the reading on the subject of magazine limits....
Sorry Bill but people have stopped shooters and escaped while a shooter is reloading. These are real world examples. Remember that last school shooting and how a teacher stopped the shooter?
You must think that 300 million guns that are already out there are going to disappear.Yes so they carry the most common guns. If those become guns with mags that hold 10 or less that is what the gang banger will typically have.
No not at all, but they all sure don't have hi cap mags either. If there was a limit in place all the hi cap mags would be hoarded by the gun nuts. Pretty soon they would be hard for criminals to get. Those in criminal hands now will eventually fall into police hands and be destroyed.
Would they be as hard to get as fully automatic Russian rifles in France, a country with stricter gun control than the United States....where the guys who got the guns...one was already a convicted criminal, and both were on the governments terrorist watch list....I'm sure they had no trouble getting standard magazines to go with their illegal, fully automatic rifles........and their rocket propelled grenade, and hand grenades...dittos for the other gunmen in France who have also killed people, but whose stories haven't been covered by the U.S. media......or the terrorist in Belium....another country with strict gun control......and another terrorist who had no problem getting military grade rifles and magazines....
Those stories show your notions are silly Brain.....France and Belgium have far stricter bans on civilian ownership of handguns, fully automatic rifles, standard magazines, rocket propelled grenades, and hand grenades.....and the criminals who wanted them had no trouble getting them.....
How do you explain that Brain.....?
And as shown by France.....if there is a desire for standard magazines...criminals will get them, when they want them.....the only people who won't get them are law abiding citizens...the ones who aren't abusing them now.....
How do you explain the mass shooter in CA not bothering to get all those things and using 10 round magazines? And if they have to illegally buy things there is a chance they are caught illegally buying and stopped before anyone dies.
Funny thing....he still shot people...after stabbing and bludgeoning 3 roomates, and running over more.........your magazine limit doesn't even stop mass shooters now....in strict gun controlled California.........it is a joke of an idea.....Columbine...the rifle they used....10 rounds...killed a lot of people....
Magazine limits are pointless and serve no purpose that would stop violent crime or mass shooters......
More....
Physical Mismatches
If you’re close enough to grab the offender as soon as he starts shooting — and actually know how to do it — you have a reasonable chance of succeeding. Unfortunately if you’re close, you’ll very likely be one of the first victims of his criminal gunfire, perhaps before you can act. There is also the matter of relative physical strength. In the Loukaitis incident, an adult male gym teacher was able to overpower a 14-year-old boy who, judging by his photos, was physically unintimidating.
In the Drega murders, Dennis Joos wasn’t a physically large or especially strong man, and was up against a rugged, muscular killer who stood over 6’ tall and weighed well over 200 pounds.
Massad Ayoob is always a great source when dealing with anti gun nuttery....
A pioneer in the concept of lone-officer response to active mass murder incidents, he’s one of the nation’s leading authorities on this sort of terrible event. When he and I were both instructing at the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association (ILEETA) conference earlier this year, I asked him how many of the mass killers he studied had been armed with multiple guns. “Well over half,” he answered.
This isn’t new. One of the worst mass murderers in American history goes back to Civil War times, “Bloody Bill” Anderson, a senior officer in Quantrill’s Raiders. The trademark of these guerrillas was carrying multiple revolvers, usually .36-caliber Navy Colts. When he was killed in a shootout with Union troops, an eyewitness to Anderson’s death said, “Bloody Bill had four revolvers buckled around him and two very large ones across the saddle.”
And when the Giffords shooter tried to reload he was stopped. Sorry but your expert is wrong because it has happened.
He didn't say it never happened, he pointed out that it was rarely successful and most of the time those who tried to attack the shooter empty handed were killed for their efforts.....Sandy Hook (the principal charged the killer and was shot dead ), Luby's (The father of Suzanah Hupp charged the gunman and was killed) , Fort Hood ( 3 soldiers charged the killer and all three were shot, 2 killed, one wounded and put out of the fight) and a another one Ayoob pointed out....
In Colebrook, N.H., a bitter old man named Carl Drega went on a murder rampage, assassinating two state troopers and a female judge he hated. As he left the latter murder scene, newspaper editor Dennis Joos attempted to get his rifle away from him. Drega reportedly snarled, “Mind your own f—ing business,” threw Joos to the sidewalk, and killed him with multiple gunshots. After a manhunt in which multiple lawmen were wounded, Drega was shot and killed by police.
So I would rather have armed citizens shooting these guys rather than tossing a coin and seeing if...if they can clear the distance and close with the guy actively shooting....that they can over power the guy before he shoots them anyway.....
Sorry....you want unarmed people charging active shooters....a dumb....dumb idea......
You must think that 300 million guns that are already out there are going to disappear.Yes so they carry the most common guns. If those become guns with mags that hold 10 or less that is what the gang banger will typically have.
No not at all, but they all sure don't have hi cap mags either. If there was a limit in place all the hi cap mags would be hoarded by the gun nuts. Pretty soon they would be hard for criminals to get. Those in criminal hands now will eventually fall into police hands and be destroyed.
Brain...I will let the Master handle your idea....
Disarming Mass Murderers American Handgunner
Disarming Mass Murderers
Situation:
Some gun grabbers seek magazine capacity limits, citing the theory it’ll force mass murderers to reload sooner — allowing them to be disarmed by citizens and thus reducing potential death toll.
Lesson:
There are faster ways to stop mass murderers; disarming is a risky strategy at best. In most cases, mass murderers and spree killers carry multiple guns — and they’re not going to give them up to unarmed citizens.
When legislation is introduced to ban or criminalize so-called “high-capacity magazines,” one argument always cited by gun grabbers is it will force mass-murderers to reload sooner — creating a window of opportunity in which some heroic citizen can disarm them and stop the killing. There are, of course, several things wrong with this hypothesis. One is the unrealistic assumption someone who’s willing to commit mass murder won’t be willing to access and use an illegal magazine.
Tactically, how likely is it there will be someone close enough to jump a gunman caught at slide-lock without the rescuer already (being in such close proximity to the murderer) shot before he could even make the disarming attempt? To find the answer, we have to look deeply into the history of such incidents.
Disarms During Reloading … or Not?
Two incidents seem to be most often cited by those who demand reduced magazine capacity. One is the capture of Jared Loughner after the murder spree in Tucson in which he killed six people and wounded a dozen more, including US Representative Gabrielle Giffords. The other is the capture of Colin Ferguson, which ended the Long Island Railroad train massacre, which claimed six lives and left 19 more people wounded.
In each case, multiple people were able to overpower the killer at a point when his weapon was no longer shootable. It should be noted, however, accounts of how it happened seem to differ among the witnesses. In the case of Loughner, we know Patricia Maisch ended up holding one of his magazines. Some of Ms. Maisch’s accounts make it sound as if she ripped it from his hand, while in others, she seems to say he dropped it and she picked it up.
However, Loughner was carrying multiple magazines, and at least one witness insists he had already reloaded a fresh magazine — but had somehow jammed the Glock 19 while attempting to complete the reload. In the Long Island Railroad massacre, Ferguson reloaded at least once and sustained fire. His Ruger P89 had apparently run dry at the time he was rushed and overpowered by unarmed citizens. Accounts differ as to whether Ferguson was attempting to reload a third full magazine at this time, or had shot all his magazines empty and was trying to insert loose cartridges into one of the empty mags.
Thus, it remains possible Loughner was successfully disarmed, not because he was reloading per se, but because he had jammed his already-reloaded gun. If in fact Ferguson had run out of loaded magazines, he was de facto more “out of ammunition” than he was “reloading” at the time he was overpowered and disarmed. Details, details …
There have been successful disarms in public shootings; let’s take a look.
Successful Disarms
In Moses Lake, Wash., 14-year-old Barry Loukaitis opened fire at the middle school he attended. Armed with a .30-30 rifle, .357 Magnum revolver, .25 auto and 78 rounds of ammunition, he killed three victims and wounded a fourth before a gym coach was able to wrestle the rifle away from him and hold him down. Note: the courageous gym teacher didn’t let the murderer keep shooting and killing until he ran empty — he got the .30-30 away from the young murderer while it was still loaded. If you’re going to attempt a disarm, this strategy would seem likely to save the most lives.
In June 2014, Aaron Ybarra, 26, opened fire at Seattle Pacific University. He killed one and injured three, and was then pepper-sprayed and overpowered by student monitor Jon Meis. According to one report, the killer’s weapon was a double-barrel shotgun, in poor repair and capable of firing only one barrel — for all practical intents and purposes, a single-shot weapon. While this in no way detracts from the courage displayed by the heroic Jon Meis, it’s not common for mass murderers to use single-shot weapons.
Another young hero to emerge from a mass murder atrocity is Jacob Ryker. Kip Kinkel, 15, murdered his parents and gained control of a Ruger 10/22 rifle, Ruger MK II .22 pistol and 9mm Glock 19. He took them to his school in Springfield, Ore., with an ample supply of ammunition and opened fire. His barrage had killed four people and wounded 25 more when one of those wounded students, young Mr. Ryker, jumped him as the killer reloaded the rifle.
However, Kinkel had armed himself with multiple weapons. During the struggle, he drew the 9mm and fired, wounding Ryker again and also another student. Then according to accounts, Ryker, now joined by six other students, was able to finally disarm him and gain physical control. By then, Kinkel had fired a total of 51 rounds, 37 of which struck human targets.
When It Goes Wrong
Getting a gun away from a killer isn’t easy. Good people have died in the attempt. In the Luby’s Cafeteria massacre in Killeen, Texas, George Hennard drove his pickup truck through the plate glass window of the restaurant and stepped out with a Ruger P89 and a Glock 17. He shot 43 people, 23 fatally. In the midst of the slaughter, Al Hupp attempted to disarm the madman.
He wasn’t successful. Hennard shot him in the chest with one of the pistols, mortally wounding him. As Hupp’s wife cradled her dying husband, Hennard shot her dead too. When police arrived and he tasted return fire, Hennard killed himself.
This atrocity occurred before the passage of shall-issue concealed carry in Texas. Suzanna Gratia-Hupp, the murdered couple’s daughter, had left her S&W .38 in her parked vehicle according to Texas law. She was certain she could have neutralized Hennard early in the encounter had her gun been within reach. Instead, she endured the horror of watching her parents murdered. Ever since, Suzanna Gratia-Hupp has been one of our most eloquent and poignant spokespersons for armed citizens and lawful concealed carry.
Perhaps the most glaringly conspicuous failure to disarm occurred during the mass murder that most tore at America’s heart: Sandy Hook. The first to die was petite school principal Dawn Hochsprung. As quintessential loser Adam Lanza blasted his way through the locked door of the school, she ran at him in what could only be construed as an attempt to disarm and restrain.
She apparently never got within touching distance before he shot her down. Later, with 20 helpless children and six brave but helpless adults dead at his hands, he blew his brains out as soon as police arrived.
In Colebrook, N.H., a bitter old man named Carl Drega went on a murder rampage, assassinating two state troopers and a female judge he hated. As he left the latter murder scene, newspaper editor Dennis Joos attempted to get his rifle away from him. Drega reportedly snarled, “Mind your own f—ing business,” threw Joos to the sidewalk, and killed him with multiple gunshots. After a manhunt in which multiple lawmen were wounded, Drega was shot and killed by police.
What about verbally convincing the gunman to just put down the gun? This strategy doesn’t have a promising history. In 2013, a 12-year-old boy came to school with a gun in Sparks, Nev. Teacher Michael Landsberry tried to “talk him down.” The boy shot and killed the teacher, and then committed suicide.
And the article continues...well worth the reading on the subject of magazine limits....
Sorry Bill but people have stopped shooters and escaped while a shooter is reloading. These are real world examples. Remember that last school shooting and how a teacher stopped the shooter?
Sandy Hook....he killed 26 and he still changed magazines multiple times in combat reloads and then killed himself....when good guys with guns were getting close.....
I would rather the good guys with guns force these guys to suicide before the 26 people are killed....rather than tell these people...."Yeah....count the bullets....when he stops to reload...rush him."
More....
Physical Mismatches
If you’re close enough to grab the offender as soon as he starts shooting — and actually know how to do it — you have a reasonable chance of succeeding. Unfortunately if you’re close, you’ll very likely be one of the first victims of his criminal gunfire, perhaps before you can act. There is also the matter of relative physical strength. In the Loukaitis incident, an adult male gym teacher was able to overpower a 14-year-old boy who, judging by his photos, was physically unintimidating.
In the Drega murders, Dennis Joos wasn’t a physically large or especially strong man, and was up against a rugged, muscular killer who stood over 6’ tall and weighed well over 200 pounds.
Massad Ayoob is always a great source when dealing with anti gun nuttery....
A pioneer in the concept of lone-officer response to active mass murder incidents, he’s one of the nation’s leading authorities on this sort of terrible event. When he and I were both instructing at the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association (ILEETA) conference earlier this year, I asked him how many of the mass killers he studied had been armed with multiple guns. “Well over half,” he answered.
This isn’t new. One of the worst mass murderers in American history goes back to Civil War times, “Bloody Bill” Anderson, a senior officer in Quantrill’s Raiders. The trademark of these guerrillas was carrying multiple revolvers, usually .36-caliber Navy Colts. When he was killed in a shootout with Union troops, an eyewitness to Anderson’s death said, “Bloody Bill had four revolvers buckled around him and two very large ones across the saddle.”
And when the Giffords shooter tried to reload he was stopped. Sorry but your expert is wrong because it has happened.
He didn't say it never happened, he pointed out that it was rarely successful and most of the time those who tried to attack the shooter empty handed were killed for their efforts.....Sandy Hook (the principal charged the killer and was shot dead ), Luby's (The father of Suzanah Hupp charged the gunman and was killed) , Fort Hood ( 3 soldiers charged the killer and all three were shot, 2 killed, one wounded and put out of the fight) and a another one Ayoob pointed out....
In Colebrook, N.H., a bitter old man named Carl Drega went on a murder rampage, assassinating two state troopers and a female judge he hated. As he left the latter murder scene, newspaper editor Dennis Joos attempted to get his rifle away from him. Drega reportedly snarled, “Mind your own f—ing business,” threw Joos to the sidewalk, and killed him with multiple gunshots. After a manhunt in which multiple lawmen were wounded, Drega was shot and killed by police.
So I would rather have armed citizens shooting these guys rather than tossing a coin and seeing if...if they can clear the distance and close with the guy actively shooting....that they can over power the guy before he shoots them anyway.....
Sorry....you want unarmed people charging active shooters....a dumb....dumb idea......
So again the people at the giffords shooting shouldn't have stopped him? That is what you are saying. You wanted more dead people?
You must think that 300 million guns that are already out there are going to disappear.
No not at all, but they all sure don't have hi cap mags either. If there was a limit in place all the hi cap mags would be hoarded by the gun nuts. Pretty soon they would be hard for criminals to get. Those in criminal hands now will eventually fall into police hands and be destroyed.
Brain...I will let the Master handle your idea....
Disarming Mass Murderers American Handgunner
Disarming Mass Murderers
Situation:
Some gun grabbers seek magazine capacity limits, citing the theory it’ll force mass murderers to reload sooner — allowing them to be disarmed by citizens and thus reducing potential death toll.
Lesson:
There are faster ways to stop mass murderers; disarming is a risky strategy at best. In most cases, mass murderers and spree killers carry multiple guns — and they’re not going to give them up to unarmed citizens.
When legislation is introduced to ban or criminalize so-called “high-capacity magazines,” one argument always cited by gun grabbers is it will force mass-murderers to reload sooner — creating a window of opportunity in which some heroic citizen can disarm them and stop the killing. There are, of course, several things wrong with this hypothesis. One is the unrealistic assumption someone who’s willing to commit mass murder won’t be willing to access and use an illegal magazine.
Tactically, how likely is it there will be someone close enough to jump a gunman caught at slide-lock without the rescuer already (being in such close proximity to the murderer) shot before he could even make the disarming attempt? To find the answer, we have to look deeply into the history of such incidents.
Disarms During Reloading … or Not?
Two incidents seem to be most often cited by those who demand reduced magazine capacity. One is the capture of Jared Loughner after the murder spree in Tucson in which he killed six people and wounded a dozen more, including US Representative Gabrielle Giffords. The other is the capture of Colin Ferguson, which ended the Long Island Railroad train massacre, which claimed six lives and left 19 more people wounded.
In each case, multiple people were able to overpower the killer at a point when his weapon was no longer shootable. It should be noted, however, accounts of how it happened seem to differ among the witnesses. In the case of Loughner, we know Patricia Maisch ended up holding one of his magazines. Some of Ms. Maisch’s accounts make it sound as if she ripped it from his hand, while in others, she seems to say he dropped it and she picked it up.
However, Loughner was carrying multiple magazines, and at least one witness insists he had already reloaded a fresh magazine — but had somehow jammed the Glock 19 while attempting to complete the reload. In the Long Island Railroad massacre, Ferguson reloaded at least once and sustained fire. His Ruger P89 had apparently run dry at the time he was rushed and overpowered by unarmed citizens. Accounts differ as to whether Ferguson was attempting to reload a third full magazine at this time, or had shot all his magazines empty and was trying to insert loose cartridges into one of the empty mags.
Thus, it remains possible Loughner was successfully disarmed, not because he was reloading per se, but because he had jammed his already-reloaded gun. If in fact Ferguson had run out of loaded magazines, he was de facto more “out of ammunition” than he was “reloading” at the time he was overpowered and disarmed. Details, details …
There have been successful disarms in public shootings; let’s take a look.
Successful Disarms
In Moses Lake, Wash., 14-year-old Barry Loukaitis opened fire at the middle school he attended. Armed with a .30-30 rifle, .357 Magnum revolver, .25 auto and 78 rounds of ammunition, he killed three victims and wounded a fourth before a gym coach was able to wrestle the rifle away from him and hold him down. Note: the courageous gym teacher didn’t let the murderer keep shooting and killing until he ran empty — he got the .30-30 away from the young murderer while it was still loaded. If you’re going to attempt a disarm, this strategy would seem likely to save the most lives.
In June 2014, Aaron Ybarra, 26, opened fire at Seattle Pacific University. He killed one and injured three, and was then pepper-sprayed and overpowered by student monitor Jon Meis. According to one report, the killer’s weapon was a double-barrel shotgun, in poor repair and capable of firing only one barrel — for all practical intents and purposes, a single-shot weapon. While this in no way detracts from the courage displayed by the heroic Jon Meis, it’s not common for mass murderers to use single-shot weapons.
Another young hero to emerge from a mass murder atrocity is Jacob Ryker. Kip Kinkel, 15, murdered his parents and gained control of a Ruger 10/22 rifle, Ruger MK II .22 pistol and 9mm Glock 19. He took them to his school in Springfield, Ore., with an ample supply of ammunition and opened fire. His barrage had killed four people and wounded 25 more when one of those wounded students, young Mr. Ryker, jumped him as the killer reloaded the rifle.
However, Kinkel had armed himself with multiple weapons. During the struggle, he drew the 9mm and fired, wounding Ryker again and also another student. Then according to accounts, Ryker, now joined by six other students, was able to finally disarm him and gain physical control. By then, Kinkel had fired a total of 51 rounds, 37 of which struck human targets.
When It Goes Wrong
Getting a gun away from a killer isn’t easy. Good people have died in the attempt. In the Luby’s Cafeteria massacre in Killeen, Texas, George Hennard drove his pickup truck through the plate glass window of the restaurant and stepped out with a Ruger P89 and a Glock 17. He shot 43 people, 23 fatally. In the midst of the slaughter, Al Hupp attempted to disarm the madman.
He wasn’t successful. Hennard shot him in the chest with one of the pistols, mortally wounding him. As Hupp’s wife cradled her dying husband, Hennard shot her dead too. When police arrived and he tasted return fire, Hennard killed himself.
This atrocity occurred before the passage of shall-issue concealed carry in Texas. Suzanna Gratia-Hupp, the murdered couple’s daughter, had left her S&W .38 in her parked vehicle according to Texas law. She was certain she could have neutralized Hennard early in the encounter had her gun been within reach. Instead, she endured the horror of watching her parents murdered. Ever since, Suzanna Gratia-Hupp has been one of our most eloquent and poignant spokespersons for armed citizens and lawful concealed carry.
Perhaps the most glaringly conspicuous failure to disarm occurred during the mass murder that most tore at America’s heart: Sandy Hook. The first to die was petite school principal Dawn Hochsprung. As quintessential loser Adam Lanza blasted his way through the locked door of the school, she ran at him in what could only be construed as an attempt to disarm and restrain.
She apparently never got within touching distance before he shot her down. Later, with 20 helpless children and six brave but helpless adults dead at his hands, he blew his brains out as soon as police arrived.
In Colebrook, N.H., a bitter old man named Carl Drega went on a murder rampage, assassinating two state troopers and a female judge he hated. As he left the latter murder scene, newspaper editor Dennis Joos attempted to get his rifle away from him. Drega reportedly snarled, “Mind your own f—ing business,” threw Joos to the sidewalk, and killed him with multiple gunshots. After a manhunt in which multiple lawmen were wounded, Drega was shot and killed by police.
What about verbally convincing the gunman to just put down the gun? This strategy doesn’t have a promising history. In 2013, a 12-year-old boy came to school with a gun in Sparks, Nev. Teacher Michael Landsberry tried to “talk him down.” The boy shot and killed the teacher, and then committed suicide.
And the article continues...well worth the reading on the subject of magazine limits....
Sorry Bill but people have stopped shooters and escaped while a shooter is reloading. These are real world examples. Remember that last school shooting and how a teacher stopped the shooter?
Sandy Hook....he killed 26 and he still changed magazines multiple times in combat reloads and then killed himself....when good guys with guns were getting close.....
I would rather the good guys with guns force these guys to suicide before the 26 people are killed....rather than tell these people...."Yeah....count the bullets....when he stops to reload...rush him."
Don't be an idiot, nobody is counting bullets. You think anyone counted bullets before rushing the giffords shooter? You think people running away from a shooter are counting bullets? That is dumb. Once the shooting starts people either run or rush the shooter. Either way they have a better chance if the shooter has to reload early and often.
You must think that 300 million guns that are already out there are going to disappear.
No not at all, but they all sure don't have hi cap mags either. If there was a limit in place all the hi cap mags would be hoarded by the gun nuts. Pretty soon they would be hard for criminals to get. Those in criminal hands now will eventually fall into police hands and be destroyed.
Would they be as hard to get as fully automatic Russian rifles in France, a country with stricter gun control than the United States....where the guys who got the guns...one was already a convicted criminal, and both were on the governments terrorist watch list....I'm sure they had no trouble getting standard magazines to go with their illegal, fully automatic rifles........and their rocket propelled grenade, and hand grenades...dittos for the other gunmen in France who have also killed people, but whose stories haven't been covered by the U.S. media......or the terrorist in Belium....another country with strict gun control......and another terrorist who had no problem getting military grade rifles and magazines....
Those stories show your notions are silly Brain.....France and Belgium have far stricter bans on civilian ownership of handguns, fully automatic rifles, standard magazines, rocket propelled grenades, and hand grenades.....and the criminals who wanted them had no trouble getting them.....
How do you explain that Brain.....?
And as shown by France.....if there is a desire for standard magazines...criminals will get them, when they want them.....the only people who won't get them are law abiding citizens...the ones who aren't abusing them now.....
How do you explain the mass shooter in CA not bothering to get all those things and using 10 round magazines? And if they have to illegally buy things there is a chance they are caught illegally buying and stopped before anyone dies.
Funny thing....he still shot people...after stabbing and bludgeoning 3 roomates, and running over more.........your magazine limit doesn't even stop mass shooters now....in strict gun controlled California.........it is a joke of an idea.....Columbine...the rifle they used....10 rounds...killed a lot of people....
Magazine limits are pointless and serve no purpose that would stop violent crime or mass shooters......
Obviously a magazine limit is to lower the number of dead bill, it won't stop a shooting. Don't be silly.
I have given you several real world examples where it would have saved lives. Sad you think saving lives is pointless. You can't give a single example where a defender needed a hi cap magazine. Now defenders having them that is pointless.
More....
Physical Mismatches
If you’re close enough to grab the offender as soon as he starts shooting — and actually know how to do it — you have a reasonable chance of succeeding. Unfortunately if you’re close, you’ll very likely be one of the first victims of his criminal gunfire, perhaps before you can act. There is also the matter of relative physical strength. In the Loukaitis incident, an adult male gym teacher was able to overpower a 14-year-old boy who, judging by his photos, was physically unintimidating.
In the Drega murders, Dennis Joos wasn’t a physically large or especially strong man, and was up against a rugged, muscular killer who stood over 6’ tall and weighed well over 200 pounds.
Massad Ayoob is always a great source when dealing with anti gun nuttery....
A pioneer in the concept of lone-officer response to active mass murder incidents, he’s one of the nation’s leading authorities on this sort of terrible event. When he and I were both instructing at the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association (ILEETA) conference earlier this year, I asked him how many of the mass killers he studied had been armed with multiple guns. “Well over half,” he answered.
This isn’t new. One of the worst mass murderers in American history goes back to Civil War times, “Bloody Bill” Anderson, a senior officer in Quantrill’s Raiders. The trademark of these guerrillas was carrying multiple revolvers, usually .36-caliber Navy Colts. When he was killed in a shootout with Union troops, an eyewitness to Anderson’s death said, “Bloody Bill had four revolvers buckled around him and two very large ones across the saddle.”
And when the Giffords shooter tried to reload he was stopped. Sorry but your expert is wrong because it has happened.
He didn't say it never happened, he pointed out that it was rarely successful and most of the time those who tried to attack the shooter empty handed were killed for their efforts.....Sandy Hook (the principal charged the killer and was shot dead ), Luby's (The father of Suzanah Hupp charged the gunman and was killed) , Fort Hood ( 3 soldiers charged the killer and all three were shot, 2 killed, one wounded and put out of the fight) and a another one Ayoob pointed out....
In Colebrook, N.H., a bitter old man named Carl Drega went on a murder rampage, assassinating two state troopers and a female judge he hated. As he left the latter murder scene, newspaper editor Dennis Joos attempted to get his rifle away from him. Drega reportedly snarled, “Mind your own f—ing business,” threw Joos to the sidewalk, and killed him with multiple gunshots. After a manhunt in which multiple lawmen were wounded, Drega was shot and killed by police.
So I would rather have armed citizens shooting these guys rather than tossing a coin and seeing if...if they can clear the distance and close with the guy actively shooting....that they can over power the guy before he shoots them anyway.....
Sorry....you want unarmed people charging active shooters....a dumb....dumb idea......
So again the people at the giffords shooting shouldn't have stopped him? That is what you are saying. You wanted more dead people?
Yes Brain...that is exactly what I am saying, they should have simply laid down and let him kill them....
Brain.......they need to end gun free zones.....so it is more likely that people will be armed when these guys attack.......attacking an active shooter with just your bare hands is the insanity of a last desperate attempt to stop him.....you are the one who will create laws that allow those situations...not me....
Hey, I have an idea. Let's arm everyone with canned goods. Then when a psycho opens fire, we can all throw our tomato sauce at 'em. Yeah! And corn. And green beans.
No not at all, but they all sure don't have hi cap mags either. If there was a limit in place all the hi cap mags would be hoarded by the gun nuts. Pretty soon they would be hard for criminals to get. Those in criminal hands now will eventually fall into police hands and be destroyed.
Would they be as hard to get as fully automatic Russian rifles in France, a country with stricter gun control than the United States....where the guys who got the guns...one was already a convicted criminal, and both were on the governments terrorist watch list....I'm sure they had no trouble getting standard magazines to go with their illegal, fully automatic rifles........and their rocket propelled grenade, and hand grenades...dittos for the other gunmen in France who have also killed people, but whose stories haven't been covered by the U.S. media......or the terrorist in Belium....another country with strict gun control......and another terrorist who had no problem getting military grade rifles and magazines....
Those stories show your notions are silly Brain.....France and Belgium have far stricter bans on civilian ownership of handguns, fully automatic rifles, standard magazines, rocket propelled grenades, and hand grenades.....and the criminals who wanted them had no trouble getting them.....
How do you explain that Brain.....?
And as shown by France.....if there is a desire for standard magazines...criminals will get them, when they want them.....the only people who won't get them are law abiding citizens...the ones who aren't abusing them now.....
How do you explain the mass shooter in CA not bothering to get all those things and using 10 round magazines? And if they have to illegally buy things there is a chance they are caught illegally buying and stopped before anyone dies.
Funny thing....he still shot people...after stabbing and bludgeoning 3 roomates, and running over more.........your magazine limit doesn't even stop mass shooters now....in strict gun controlled California.........it is a joke of an idea.....Columbine...the rifle they used....10 rounds...killed a lot of people....
Magazine limits are pointless and serve no purpose that would stop violent crime or mass shooters......
Obviously a magazine limit is to lower the number of dead bill, it won't stop a shooting. Don't be silly.
I have given you several real world examples where it would have saved lives. Sad you think saving lives is pointless. You can't give a single example where a defender needed a hi cap magazine. Now defenders having them that is pointless.
I have given you more of where it didn't save lives....and cost the unarmed chargers their lives.....
More....
Physical Mismatches
If you’re close enough to grab the offender as soon as he starts shooting — and actually know how to do it — you have a reasonable chance of succeeding. Unfortunately if you’re close, you’ll very likely be one of the first victims of his criminal gunfire, perhaps before you can act. There is also the matter of relative physical strength. In the Loukaitis incident, an adult male gym teacher was able to overpower a 14-year-old boy who, judging by his photos, was physically unintimidating.
In the Drega murders, Dennis Joos wasn’t a physically large or especially strong man, and was up against a rugged, muscular killer who stood over 6’ tall and weighed well over 200 pounds.
Massad Ayoob is always a great source when dealing with anti gun nuttery....
A pioneer in the concept of lone-officer response to active mass murder incidents, he’s one of the nation’s leading authorities on this sort of terrible event. When he and I were both instructing at the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association (ILEETA) conference earlier this year, I asked him how many of the mass killers he studied had been armed with multiple guns. “Well over half,” he answered.
This isn’t new. One of the worst mass murderers in American history goes back to Civil War times, “Bloody Bill” Anderson, a senior officer in Quantrill’s Raiders. The trademark of these guerrillas was carrying multiple revolvers, usually .36-caliber Navy Colts. When he was killed in a shootout with Union troops, an eyewitness to Anderson’s death said, “Bloody Bill had four revolvers buckled around him and two very large ones across the saddle.”
And when the Giffords shooter tried to reload he was stopped. Sorry but your expert is wrong because it has happened.
He didn't say it never happened, he pointed out that it was rarely successful and most of the time those who tried to attack the shooter empty handed were killed for their efforts.....Sandy Hook (the principal charged the killer and was shot dead ), Luby's (The father of Suzanah Hupp charged the gunman and was killed) , Fort Hood ( 3 soldiers charged the killer and all three were shot, 2 killed, one wounded and put out of the fight) and a another one Ayoob pointed out....
In Colebrook, N.H., a bitter old man named Carl Drega went on a murder rampage, assassinating two state troopers and a female judge he hated. As he left the latter murder scene, newspaper editor Dennis Joos attempted to get his rifle away from him. Drega reportedly snarled, “Mind your own f—ing business,” threw Joos to the sidewalk, and killed him with multiple gunshots. After a manhunt in which multiple lawmen were wounded, Drega was shot and killed by police.
So I would rather have armed citizens shooting these guys rather than tossing a coin and seeing if...if they can clear the distance and close with the guy actively shooting....that they can over power the guy before he shoots them anyway.....
Sorry....you want unarmed people charging active shooters....a dumb....dumb idea......
So again the people at the giffords shooting shouldn't have stopped him? That is what you are saying. You wanted more dead people?
Yes Brain...that is exactly what I am saying, they should have simply laid down and let him kill them....
Brain.......they need to end gun free zones.....so it is more likely that people will be armed when these guys attack.......attacking an active shooter with just your bare hands is the insanity of a last desperate attempt to stop him.....you are the one who will create laws that allow those situations...not me....
I've told you several times I am on the fence with gun free zones. You might be right, but even if they do in most situations there won't be somebody with a gun there regardless. The giffords shooting wasn't a gun free zone. Most people choose not to carry guns. So this is often the only option and if the shooter has to reload early and often it will save lives. I've given several real examples where it would. There is not negative to restricting mag capacity. You can't name a single account where anyone needed on for defense.
No not at all, but they all sure don't have hi cap mags either. If there was a limit in place all the hi cap mags would be hoarded by the gun nuts. Pretty soon they would be hard for criminals to get. Those in criminal hands now will eventually fall into police hands and be destroyed.
Brain...I will let the Master handle your idea....
Disarming Mass Murderers American Handgunner
Disarming Mass Murderers
Situation:
Some gun grabbers seek magazine capacity limits, citing the theory it’ll force mass murderers to reload sooner — allowing them to be disarmed by citizens and thus reducing potential death toll.
Lesson:
There are faster ways to stop mass murderers; disarming is a risky strategy at best. In most cases, mass murderers and spree killers carry multiple guns — and they’re not going to give them up to unarmed citizens.
When legislation is introduced to ban or criminalize so-called “high-capacity magazines,” one argument always cited by gun grabbers is it will force mass-murderers to reload sooner — creating a window of opportunity in which some heroic citizen can disarm them and stop the killing. There are, of course, several things wrong with this hypothesis. One is the unrealistic assumption someone who’s willing to commit mass murder won’t be willing to access and use an illegal magazine.
Tactically, how likely is it there will be someone close enough to jump a gunman caught at slide-lock without the rescuer already (being in such close proximity to the murderer) shot before he could even make the disarming attempt? To find the answer, we have to look deeply into the history of such incidents.
Disarms During Reloading … or Not?
Two incidents seem to be most often cited by those who demand reduced magazine capacity. One is the capture of Jared Loughner after the murder spree in Tucson in which he killed six people and wounded a dozen more, including US Representative Gabrielle Giffords. The other is the capture of Colin Ferguson, which ended the Long Island Railroad train massacre, which claimed six lives and left 19 more people wounded.
In each case, multiple people were able to overpower the killer at a point when his weapon was no longer shootable. It should be noted, however, accounts of how it happened seem to differ among the witnesses. In the case of Loughner, we know Patricia Maisch ended up holding one of his magazines. Some of Ms. Maisch’s accounts make it sound as if she ripped it from his hand, while in others, she seems to say he dropped it and she picked it up.
However, Loughner was carrying multiple magazines, and at least one witness insists he had already reloaded a fresh magazine — but had somehow jammed the Glock 19 while attempting to complete the reload. In the Long Island Railroad massacre, Ferguson reloaded at least once and sustained fire. His Ruger P89 had apparently run dry at the time he was rushed and overpowered by unarmed citizens. Accounts differ as to whether Ferguson was attempting to reload a third full magazine at this time, or had shot all his magazines empty and was trying to insert loose cartridges into one of the empty mags.
Thus, it remains possible Loughner was successfully disarmed, not because he was reloading per se, but because he had jammed his already-reloaded gun. If in fact Ferguson had run out of loaded magazines, he was de facto more “out of ammunition” than he was “reloading” at the time he was overpowered and disarmed. Details, details …
There have been successful disarms in public shootings; let’s take a look.
Successful Disarms
In Moses Lake, Wash., 14-year-old Barry Loukaitis opened fire at the middle school he attended. Armed with a .30-30 rifle, .357 Magnum revolver, .25 auto and 78 rounds of ammunition, he killed three victims and wounded a fourth before a gym coach was able to wrestle the rifle away from him and hold him down. Note: the courageous gym teacher didn’t let the murderer keep shooting and killing until he ran empty — he got the .30-30 away from the young murderer while it was still loaded. If you’re going to attempt a disarm, this strategy would seem likely to save the most lives.
In June 2014, Aaron Ybarra, 26, opened fire at Seattle Pacific University. He killed one and injured three, and was then pepper-sprayed and overpowered by student monitor Jon Meis. According to one report, the killer’s weapon was a double-barrel shotgun, in poor repair and capable of firing only one barrel — for all practical intents and purposes, a single-shot weapon. While this in no way detracts from the courage displayed by the heroic Jon Meis, it’s not common for mass murderers to use single-shot weapons.
Another young hero to emerge from a mass murder atrocity is Jacob Ryker. Kip Kinkel, 15, murdered his parents and gained control of a Ruger 10/22 rifle, Ruger MK II .22 pistol and 9mm Glock 19. He took them to his school in Springfield, Ore., with an ample supply of ammunition and opened fire. His barrage had killed four people and wounded 25 more when one of those wounded students, young Mr. Ryker, jumped him as the killer reloaded the rifle.
However, Kinkel had armed himself with multiple weapons. During the struggle, he drew the 9mm and fired, wounding Ryker again and also another student. Then according to accounts, Ryker, now joined by six other students, was able to finally disarm him and gain physical control. By then, Kinkel had fired a total of 51 rounds, 37 of which struck human targets.
When It Goes Wrong
Getting a gun away from a killer isn’t easy. Good people have died in the attempt. In the Luby’s Cafeteria massacre in Killeen, Texas, George Hennard drove his pickup truck through the plate glass window of the restaurant and stepped out with a Ruger P89 and a Glock 17. He shot 43 people, 23 fatally. In the midst of the slaughter, Al Hupp attempted to disarm the madman.
He wasn’t successful. Hennard shot him in the chest with one of the pistols, mortally wounding him. As Hupp’s wife cradled her dying husband, Hennard shot her dead too. When police arrived and he tasted return fire, Hennard killed himself.
This atrocity occurred before the passage of shall-issue concealed carry in Texas. Suzanna Gratia-Hupp, the murdered couple’s daughter, had left her S&W .38 in her parked vehicle according to Texas law. She was certain she could have neutralized Hennard early in the encounter had her gun been within reach. Instead, she endured the horror of watching her parents murdered. Ever since, Suzanna Gratia-Hupp has been one of our most eloquent and poignant spokespersons for armed citizens and lawful concealed carry.
Perhaps the most glaringly conspicuous failure to disarm occurred during the mass murder that most tore at America’s heart: Sandy Hook. The first to die was petite school principal Dawn Hochsprung. As quintessential loser Adam Lanza blasted his way through the locked door of the school, she ran at him in what could only be construed as an attempt to disarm and restrain.
She apparently never got within touching distance before he shot her down. Later, with 20 helpless children and six brave but helpless adults dead at his hands, he blew his brains out as soon as police arrived.
In Colebrook, N.H., a bitter old man named Carl Drega went on a murder rampage, assassinating two state troopers and a female judge he hated. As he left the latter murder scene, newspaper editor Dennis Joos attempted to get his rifle away from him. Drega reportedly snarled, “Mind your own f—ing business,” threw Joos to the sidewalk, and killed him with multiple gunshots. After a manhunt in which multiple lawmen were wounded, Drega was shot and killed by police.
What about verbally convincing the gunman to just put down the gun? This strategy doesn’t have a promising history. In 2013, a 12-year-old boy came to school with a gun in Sparks, Nev. Teacher Michael Landsberry tried to “talk him down.” The boy shot and killed the teacher, and then committed suicide.
And the article continues...well worth the reading on the subject of magazine limits....
Sorry Bill but people have stopped shooters and escaped while a shooter is reloading. These are real world examples. Remember that last school shooting and how a teacher stopped the shooter?
Sandy Hook....he killed 26 and he still changed magazines multiple times in combat reloads and then killed himself....when good guys with guns were getting close.....
I would rather the good guys with guns force these guys to suicide before the 26 people are killed....rather than tell these people...."Yeah....count the bullets....when he stops to reload...rush him."
Don't be an idiot, nobody is counting bullets. You think anyone counted bullets before rushing the giffords shooter? You think people running away from a shooter are counting bullets? That is dumb. Once the shooting starts people either run or rush the shooter. Either way they have a better chance if the shooter has to reload early and often.
And in almost all cases except for the few lucky ones....they are killed as they try.....since the shooter has all the advantages.....and as the victims realize he has to change a magazine desperate seconds are already gone...and he is shooting again....just like the Long Island shooter....who ran out of ammo after changing magazines on a packed train....and then they disarmed him.....when his gun was empty.....
Would they be as hard to get as fully automatic Russian rifles in France, a country with stricter gun control than the United States....where the guys who got the guns...one was already a convicted criminal, and both were on the governments terrorist watch list....I'm sure they had no trouble getting standard magazines to go with their illegal, fully automatic rifles........and their rocket propelled grenade, and hand grenades...dittos for the other gunmen in France who have also killed people, but whose stories haven't been covered by the U.S. media......or the terrorist in Belium....another country with strict gun control......and another terrorist who had no problem getting military grade rifles and magazines....
Those stories show your notions are silly Brain.....France and Belgium have far stricter bans on civilian ownership of handguns, fully automatic rifles, standard magazines, rocket propelled grenades, and hand grenades.....and the criminals who wanted them had no trouble getting them.....
How do you explain that Brain.....?
And as shown by France.....if there is a desire for standard magazines...criminals will get them, when they want them.....the only people who won't get them are law abiding citizens...the ones who aren't abusing them now.....
How do you explain the mass shooter in CA not bothering to get all those things and using 10 round magazines? And if they have to illegally buy things there is a chance they are caught illegally buying and stopped before anyone dies.
Funny thing....he still shot people...after stabbing and bludgeoning 3 roomates, and running over more.........your magazine limit doesn't even stop mass shooters now....in strict gun controlled California.........it is a joke of an idea.....Columbine...the rifle they used....10 rounds...killed a lot of people....
Magazine limits are pointless and serve no purpose that would stop violent crime or mass shooters......
Obviously a magazine limit is to lower the number of dead bill, it won't stop a shooting. Don't be silly.
I have given you several real world examples where it would have saved lives. Sad you think saving lives is pointless. You can't give a single example where a defender needed a hi cap magazine. Now defenders having them that is pointless.
I have given you more of where it didn't save lives....and cost the unarmed chargers their lives.....
Yes in your examples the unarmed charger was either dead from charging or dead if they ran. Had the shooter at newtown had to reload more often just maybe it would have been successful. But since people like you insure the killer is very well armed it wasn't. I give you examples where they lived.
And when the Giffords shooter tried to reload he was stopped. Sorry but your expert is wrong because it has happened.
He didn't say it never happened, he pointed out that it was rarely successful and most of the time those who tried to attack the shooter empty handed were killed for their efforts.....Sandy Hook (the principal charged the killer and was shot dead ), Luby's (The father of Suzanah Hupp charged the gunman and was killed) , Fort Hood ( 3 soldiers charged the killer and all three were shot, 2 killed, one wounded and put out of the fight) and a another one Ayoob pointed out....
In Colebrook, N.H., a bitter old man named Carl Drega went on a murder rampage, assassinating two state troopers and a female judge he hated. As he left the latter murder scene, newspaper editor Dennis Joos attempted to get his rifle away from him. Drega reportedly snarled, “Mind your own f—ing business,” threw Joos to the sidewalk, and killed him with multiple gunshots. After a manhunt in which multiple lawmen were wounded, Drega was shot and killed by police.
So I would rather have armed citizens shooting these guys rather than tossing a coin and seeing if...if they can clear the distance and close with the guy actively shooting....that they can over power the guy before he shoots them anyway.....
Sorry....you want unarmed people charging active shooters....a dumb....dumb idea......
So again the people at the giffords shooting shouldn't have stopped him? That is what you are saying. You wanted more dead people?
Yes Brain...that is exactly what I am saying, they should have simply laid down and let him kill them....
Brain.......they need to end gun free zones.....so it is more likely that people will be armed when these guys attack.......attacking an active shooter with just your bare hands is the insanity of a last desperate attempt to stop him.....you are the one who will create laws that allow those situations...not me....
I've told you several times I am on the fence with gun free zones. You might be right, but even if they do in most situations there won't be somebody with a gun there regardless. The giffords shooting wasn't a gun free zone. Most people choose not to carry guns. So this is often the only option and if the shooter has to reload early and often it will save lives. I've given several real examples where it would. There is not negative to restricting mag capacity. You can't name a single account where anyone needed on for defense.
You benefit from the fact that in most crime reports, which we don't have access to, they don't list the exact number of shots fired......one day...that will be changed.....
And until you can show that you can predict how many bullets will be needed by each person who will be attacked on that day........I will go by what the professionals say....better to have more ammo and not need it than to run dry.....
Brain...I will let the Master handle your idea....
Disarming Mass Murderers American Handgunner
Disarming Mass Murderers
Situation:
Some gun grabbers seek magazine capacity limits, citing the theory it’ll force mass murderers to reload sooner — allowing them to be disarmed by citizens and thus reducing potential death toll.
Lesson:
There are faster ways to stop mass murderers; disarming is a risky strategy at best. In most cases, mass murderers and spree killers carry multiple guns — and they’re not going to give them up to unarmed citizens.
When legislation is introduced to ban or criminalize so-called “high-capacity magazines,” one argument always cited by gun grabbers is it will force mass-murderers to reload sooner — creating a window of opportunity in which some heroic citizen can disarm them and stop the killing. There are, of course, several things wrong with this hypothesis. One is the unrealistic assumption someone who’s willing to commit mass murder won’t be willing to access and use an illegal magazine.
Tactically, how likely is it there will be someone close enough to jump a gunman caught at slide-lock without the rescuer already (being in such close proximity to the murderer) shot before he could even make the disarming attempt? To find the answer, we have to look deeply into the history of such incidents.
Disarms During Reloading … or Not?
Two incidents seem to be most often cited by those who demand reduced magazine capacity. One is the capture of Jared Loughner after the murder spree in Tucson in which he killed six people and wounded a dozen more, including US Representative Gabrielle Giffords. The other is the capture of Colin Ferguson, which ended the Long Island Railroad train massacre, which claimed six lives and left 19 more people wounded.
In each case, multiple people were able to overpower the killer at a point when his weapon was no longer shootable. It should be noted, however, accounts of how it happened seem to differ among the witnesses. In the case of Loughner, we know Patricia Maisch ended up holding one of his magazines. Some of Ms. Maisch’s accounts make it sound as if she ripped it from his hand, while in others, she seems to say he dropped it and she picked it up.
However, Loughner was carrying multiple magazines, and at least one witness insists he had already reloaded a fresh magazine — but had somehow jammed the Glock 19 while attempting to complete the reload. In the Long Island Railroad massacre, Ferguson reloaded at least once and sustained fire. His Ruger P89 had apparently run dry at the time he was rushed and overpowered by unarmed citizens. Accounts differ as to whether Ferguson was attempting to reload a third full magazine at this time, or had shot all his magazines empty and was trying to insert loose cartridges into one of the empty mags.
Thus, it remains possible Loughner was successfully disarmed, not because he was reloading per se, but because he had jammed his already-reloaded gun. If in fact Ferguson had run out of loaded magazines, he was de facto more “out of ammunition” than he was “reloading” at the time he was overpowered and disarmed. Details, details …
There have been successful disarms in public shootings; let’s take a look.
Successful Disarms
In Moses Lake, Wash., 14-year-old Barry Loukaitis opened fire at the middle school he attended. Armed with a .30-30 rifle, .357 Magnum revolver, .25 auto and 78 rounds of ammunition, he killed three victims and wounded a fourth before a gym coach was able to wrestle the rifle away from him and hold him down. Note: the courageous gym teacher didn’t let the murderer keep shooting and killing until he ran empty — he got the .30-30 away from the young murderer while it was still loaded. If you’re going to attempt a disarm, this strategy would seem likely to save the most lives.
In June 2014, Aaron Ybarra, 26, opened fire at Seattle Pacific University. He killed one and injured three, and was then pepper-sprayed and overpowered by student monitor Jon Meis. According to one report, the killer’s weapon was a double-barrel shotgun, in poor repair and capable of firing only one barrel — for all practical intents and purposes, a single-shot weapon. While this in no way detracts from the courage displayed by the heroic Jon Meis, it’s not common for mass murderers to use single-shot weapons.
Another young hero to emerge from a mass murder atrocity is Jacob Ryker. Kip Kinkel, 15, murdered his parents and gained control of a Ruger 10/22 rifle, Ruger MK II .22 pistol and 9mm Glock 19. He took them to his school in Springfield, Ore., with an ample supply of ammunition and opened fire. His barrage had killed four people and wounded 25 more when one of those wounded students, young Mr. Ryker, jumped him as the killer reloaded the rifle.
However, Kinkel had armed himself with multiple weapons. During the struggle, he drew the 9mm and fired, wounding Ryker again and also another student. Then according to accounts, Ryker, now joined by six other students, was able to finally disarm him and gain physical control. By then, Kinkel had fired a total of 51 rounds, 37 of which struck human targets.
When It Goes Wrong
Getting a gun away from a killer isn’t easy. Good people have died in the attempt. In the Luby’s Cafeteria massacre in Killeen, Texas, George Hennard drove his pickup truck through the plate glass window of the restaurant and stepped out with a Ruger P89 and a Glock 17. He shot 43 people, 23 fatally. In the midst of the slaughter, Al Hupp attempted to disarm the madman.
He wasn’t successful. Hennard shot him in the chest with one of the pistols, mortally wounding him. As Hupp’s wife cradled her dying husband, Hennard shot her dead too. When police arrived and he tasted return fire, Hennard killed himself.
This atrocity occurred before the passage of shall-issue concealed carry in Texas. Suzanna Gratia-Hupp, the murdered couple’s daughter, had left her S&W .38 in her parked vehicle according to Texas law. She was certain she could have neutralized Hennard early in the encounter had her gun been within reach. Instead, she endured the horror of watching her parents murdered. Ever since, Suzanna Gratia-Hupp has been one of our most eloquent and poignant spokespersons for armed citizens and lawful concealed carry.
Perhaps the most glaringly conspicuous failure to disarm occurred during the mass murder that most tore at America’s heart: Sandy Hook. The first to die was petite school principal Dawn Hochsprung. As quintessential loser Adam Lanza blasted his way through the locked door of the school, she ran at him in what could only be construed as an attempt to disarm and restrain.
She apparently never got within touching distance before he shot her down. Later, with 20 helpless children and six brave but helpless adults dead at his hands, he blew his brains out as soon as police arrived.
In Colebrook, N.H., a bitter old man named Carl Drega went on a murder rampage, assassinating two state troopers and a female judge he hated. As he left the latter murder scene, newspaper editor Dennis Joos attempted to get his rifle away from him. Drega reportedly snarled, “Mind your own f—ing business,” threw Joos to the sidewalk, and killed him with multiple gunshots. After a manhunt in which multiple lawmen were wounded, Drega was shot and killed by police.
What about verbally convincing the gunman to just put down the gun? This strategy doesn’t have a promising history. In 2013, a 12-year-old boy came to school with a gun in Sparks, Nev. Teacher Michael Landsberry tried to “talk him down.” The boy shot and killed the teacher, and then committed suicide.
And the article continues...well worth the reading on the subject of magazine limits....
Sorry Bill but people have stopped shooters and escaped while a shooter is reloading. These are real world examples. Remember that last school shooting and how a teacher stopped the shooter?
Sandy Hook....he killed 26 and he still changed magazines multiple times in combat reloads and then killed himself....when good guys with guns were getting close.....
I would rather the good guys with guns force these guys to suicide before the 26 people are killed....rather than tell these people...."Yeah....count the bullets....when he stops to reload...rush him."
Don't be an idiot, nobody is counting bullets. You think anyone counted bullets before rushing the giffords shooter? You think people running away from a shooter are counting bullets? That is dumb. Once the shooting starts people either run or rush the shooter. Either way they have a better chance if the shooter has to reload early and often.
And in almost all cases except for the few lucky ones....they are killed as they try.....since the shooter has all the advantages.....and as the victims realize he has to change a magazine desperate seconds are already gone...and he is shooting again....just like the Long Island shooter....who ran out of ammo after changing magazines on a packed train....and then they disarmed him.....when his gun was empty.....
He was disarmed when he tried to reload again. Those lucky ones saved lives. Do you not value lives? Limit mag capacity and there will be more lucky ones. Why don't you want that?
Sorry Bill but people have stopped shooters and escaped while a shooter is reloading. These are real world examples. Remember that last school shooting and how a teacher stopped the shooter?
Sandy Hook....he killed 26 and he still changed magazines multiple times in combat reloads and then killed himself....when good guys with guns were getting close.....
I would rather the good guys with guns force these guys to suicide before the 26 people are killed....rather than tell these people...."Yeah....count the bullets....when he stops to reload...rush him."
Don't be an idiot, nobody is counting bullets. You think anyone counted bullets before rushing the giffords shooter? You think people running away from a shooter are counting bullets? That is dumb. Once the shooting starts people either run or rush the shooter. Either way they have a better chance if the shooter has to reload early and often.
And in almost all cases except for the few lucky ones....they are killed as they try.....since the shooter has all the advantages.....and as the victims realize he has to change a magazine desperate seconds are already gone...and he is shooting again....just like the Long Island shooter....who ran out of ammo after changing magazines on a packed train....and then they disarmed him.....when his gun was empty.....
He was disarmed when he tried to reload again. Those lucky ones saved lives. Do you not value lives? Limit mag capacity and there will be more lucky ones. Why don't you want that?
Apparently the Long Island shooter was just out of bullets....he wasn't reloading...I'll take Ayoob's expert opinion over yours.....
