Expanded background checks fails in Senate

[NYcarbineer]

Kids already get around the law.
For every 100,000 Americans under the age of 21, 1.4 people were killed in drunk driving fatalities in 2011. The rate of under 21 drunk driving fatalities per 100,000 population has declined 45% over the past decade. (Source: NHTSA/FARS and US Census Bureau, 2013)

Despite declines in the number of young people involved in drunk driving fatalities, on average, more than 3 people under the age of 21 die each day in alcohol-impaired driving crashes. (Source: NHTSA/FARS, 2013)

Underage Drunk Driving Fatalities | Century Council
I think you chose the wrong example wouldn't you agree?

So if we prohibited stores from asking for proof when people buy alcohol, you think those numbers would get better?

That's the most retarded thing I've heard on this board this year.

No dumb ass your insinuation is retarded.
Just because kids under 21 drink and drive you don't create new laws to prevent it, you keep inforcing the existing laws to prevent more from doing it. Which is the way it should be.

You don't want universal background checks because you claim they don't work.

Obviously you don't want universal age checks to buy alcohol because you claim they don't work.

You are therefore an idiot.

 

[eflatminor]

Uh...hey dumbshit, the Justice Department (a Federal agency), directed private FFL dealers to sell firearms to known straw purchasers...and then neglected to trace them. The dealers did their job and ran a background check. The Feds put those firearms into the hands of criminals, not the dealers.

So, these "known straw purchasers": They had been previously convicted of straw purchase crimes?

In some cases, yes. In others, the dealers had strong suspicions that the buyers were not legit...so they called the ATF as the law requires. The ATF, planning to "track" the purchases, instructed the dealers to sell the weapons. The rest is history...a bloody one.

 

[legaleagle_45]

So no loopholes exist? lol.

Not for stores.

Is there a law which requires a private individual to check ID before transferring alcohol to another person? If there was such a law, do you think it would stop any significant amount of alcohol transfers to minors? Do you think we should pass such a law?

 

[NYcarbineer]

well it is good to know

that there is no under age consumption of alcohol happening

Every law gets broken. That is not an argument for not having any laws,

except maybe if a cartoon character like you is making the argument.

Why have laws against child molesting if people are going to molest children anyway?

Are you for child molesting?

what you are describing are not loopholes

all are crimes

So is underage drinking you idiot. You don't want stores to have to check the age of alcohol purchasers because you don't think it works.

 

[boedicca]

There's a big centralized government database that people use to do AGE CHECKS for anyone buying a drink?

Who knew?

 

[Mustang]

What loophole to kids use to get alchol that is not illegal already and thus not a hole de loop ?

He's making the point that IF there were a loophole that allowed kids to get alcohol without breaking the law (like buying it from a 3rd party for instance), then what good would the law be?

they would still be breaking the law

it is illegal for underage persons to buy or have alcohol

just as it is illegal for felons to buy or have firearms

In any transaction, there's a buyer and a seller, right?

The point of the law is to make it MORE difficult for

1. a minor to get a hold of alcohol.

2. a felon to get a firearm.

You can be pretty sure that both groups will still try to get alcohol/firearms.

The purpose of background checks (for licensed dealers) is to prevent guns from getting into the wrong hands AND for dealers to sell to felons. BOTH could be prosecuted, and dealers could lose their license.

That's why liquor stores don't sell to minors. They could be prosecuted, AND they could lose their liquor license. If that legal penalty was removed from liquor stores, they would sell as much booze to minors as they could, and nobody could do a damn thing about it. And why wouldn't they.

SO, the point is that currently, private citizens can sell weapons to felons all they want because if they don't have a legal requirement to know the buyers' legal status, they can't be prosecuted, at least not successfully.

The same would be true if alcohol resellers could legally sell alcohol to anyone. Alas, unlike a felon, you can kind of tell if a person is underage just by looking at them, and you can be pretty sure that a very youthful looking person who buys alcohol from a private person is underage. But if there was no law preventing people who are not licensed alcohol store dealers and their employees from selling alcohol to anyone they wanted to, they could not be prosecuted.

The truth is that we have more stringent laws for selling beer to minors than we have for selling guns to grown men. And that's kind of crazy when you think about it.

 

[jon_berzerk]

exactly

no firearms dealers (stores) can sell a firearm

without doing a background check

and filling out the proper paperwork

the only exemption to that was

operation fast n furious

when ATF stepped in and told certain dealers

to allow the sales to go through

which resulted in thousands of firearms

to fall into criminal hands

to date

at least 2 Americans

and over three hundred Mexican citizens

are dead because of this program

That statement

Is

Altogether

Untrue.

no it is exactly true

and the justice department has stopped

the program when the sanitizing light

was shined upon it

the sad part is

only a very small percent of these firearms has been recaptured

this program will have deadly results for years to come

 

[bigrebnc1775]

So if we prohibited stores from asking for proof when people buy alcohol, you think those numbers would get better?

That's the most retarded thing I've heard on this board this year.

No dumb ass your insinuation is retarded.
Just because kids under 21 drink and drive you don't create new laws to prevent it, you keep inforcing the existing laws to prevent more from doing it. Which is the way it should be.

You don't want universal background checks because you claim they don't work.

Obviously you don't want universal age checks to buy alcohol because you claim they don't work.

You are therefore an idiot.

Dumb ass do they create new laws to stop under age drinking?
Why create a new law for registration when we already have registration laws on the books?

 

[boedicca]

He's making the point that IF there were a loophole that allowed kids to get alcohol without breaking the law (like buying it from a 3rd party for instance), then what good would the law be?

they would still be breaking the law

it is illegal for underage persons to buy or have alcohol

just as it is illegal for felons to buy or have firearms

In any transaction, there's a buyer and a seller, right?

The point of the law is to make it MORE difficult for

1. a minor to get a hold of alcohol.

2. a felon to get a firearm.

You can be pretty sure that both groups will still try to get alcohol/firearms.

The purpose of background checks (for licensed dealers) is to prevent guns from getting into the wrong hands AND for dealers to sell to felons. BOTH could be prosecuted, and dealers could lose their license.

That's why liquor stores don't sell to minors. They could be prosecuted, AND they could lose their liquor license. If that legal penalty was removed from liquor stores, they would sell as much booze to minors as they could, and nobody could do a damn thing about it. And why wouldn't they.

SO, the point is that currently, private citizens can sell weapons to felons all they want because if they don't have a legal requirement to know the buyers' legal status, they can't be prosecuted, at least not successfully.

The same would be true if alcohol resellers could legally sell alcohol to anyone. Alas, unlike a felon, you can kind of tell if a person is underage just by looking at them, and you can be pretty sure that a very youthful looking person who buys alcohol from a private person is underage. But if there was no law preventing people who are not licensed alcohol store dealers and their employees from selling alcohol to anyone they wanted to, they could not be prosecuted.

The truth is that we have more stringent laws for selling beer to minors than we have for selling guns to grown men. And that's kind of crazy when you think about it.

We already have background check requirements for guns, bub.

 

[eflatminor]

There's a big centralized government database that people use to do AGE CHECKS for anyone buying a drink?

Who knew?

Thanks for exposing their ignorance.

 

[jon_berzerk]

So no loopholes exist? lol.

Not for stores.

Is there a law which requires a private individual to check ID before transferring alcohol to another person? If there was such a law, do you think it would stop any significant amount of alcohol transfers to minors? Do you think we should pass such a law?

last i heard it was a crime

for an adult to transfer alcohol to a minor

 

[bigrebnc1775]

So no loopholes exist? lol.

No loophole exists.

So a private seller who is not currently required to do a background check is not a loophole where a felon could buy a weapon? lolol

1. It's a crime to sell a firearm to someone who isn't allowed to have one
2. Most private sales are made between friends you already know their back ground and no need for a piece of paper from the government.

 

[eflatminor]

Not for stores.

Is there a law which requires a private individual to check ID before transferring alcohol to another person? If there was such a law, do you think it would stop any significant amount of alcohol transfers to minors? Do you think we should pass such a law?

last i heard it was a crime

for an adult to transfer alcohol to a minor

True...but since it hasn't stopped kids from drinking beer, the Left's tact would be to ban bottle caps.

 

[boedicca]

last i heard it was a crime

for an adult to transfer alcohol to a minor

True...but since it hasn't stopped kids from drinking beer, the Left's tact would be to ban bottle caps.

Perhaps Congress can add a bottle cap ban amendment to the bill to outlaw pressure cookers!

 

[Mustang]

No loophole exists.

So a private seller who is not currently required to do a background check is not a loophole where a felon could buy a weapon? lolol

1. It's a crime to sell a firearm to someone who isn't allowed to have one
2. Most private sales are made between friends you already know their back ground and no need for a piece of paper from the government.

And how do you know that exactly? Frankly, I doubt that's true. In MY city, there are gun 'shows' several times a year. They are heavily advertised, and they are jam packed with private sellers who don't know anyone there.

 

[Vast LWC]

In some cases, yes. In others, the dealers had strong suspicions that the buyers were not legit...so they called the ATF as the law requires. The ATF, planning to "track" the purchases, instructed the dealers to sell the weapons. The rest is history...a bloody one.

That is simply not true.

Fast and Furious was investigating Straw Purchasers.

There were no sales involved from gun shops directly to convicted criminals.

The ATF instructed dealers to sell to people the dealers thought "suspicious", but not one was a convicted criminal.

 

[jon_berzerk]

True...but since it hasn't stopped kids from drinking beer, the Left's tact would be to ban bottle caps.

Perhaps Congress can add a bottle cap ban amendment to the bill to outlaw pressure cookers!

not all bottle caps only the large high capacity bottle caps

 

[eflatminor]

So a private seller who is not currently required to do a background check is not a loophole where a felon could buy a weapon? lolol

1. It's a crime to sell a firearm to someone who isn't allowed to have one
2. Most private sales are made between friends you already know their back ground and no need for a piece of paper from the government.

And how do you know that exactly? Frankly, I doubt that's true. In MY city, there are gun 'shows' several times a year. They are heavily advertised, and they are jam packed with private sellers who don't know anyone there.

We know this because according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, only .7% of convicts bought their firearms at gun shows.

Further, according to the BATF, most crime guns are either bought off the street from illegal sources through family members or friends...neither of which would be effected in any way by another law requiring a background check.

So...that's how we know.

 

[eflatminor]

In some cases, yes. In others, the dealers had strong suspicions that the buyers were not legit...so they called the ATF as the law requires. The ATF, planning to "track" the purchases, instructed the dealers to sell the weapons. The rest is history...a bloody one.

That is simply not true.

Fast and Furious was investigating Straw Purchasers.

There were no sales involved from gun shops directly to convicted criminals.

The ATF instructed dealers to sell to people the dealers thought "suspicious", but not one was a convicted criminal.

I would agree with you, but you're wrong.

 

[Vast LWC]

no it is exactly true

and the justice department has stopped

the program when the sanitizing light

was shined upon it

the sad part is

only a very small percent of these firearms has been recaptured

this program will have deadly results for years to come

No, it really is not true.

The gun shops involved in F&F had to go through the same process in selling to the straw purchasers as any other gun dealer would.

The only difference was that, in F&F, the investigators told them to sell even in cases where the shop owners suspected that the buyers were "straw buyers".

In the vast majority of cases, dealers would have no way of knowing who is a "straw buyer" or not.

And straw buyers are free to resell the weapons to whoever they want, because without a mandatory background check, there's no way to prove that the straw buyer knows the criminal history of the buyer in the resale.