Fascism

[Divine Wind]

You love to hurl insults but don't expect them back...

Incorrect, but I can see why you want to believe this. How else can you justify constantly posting ad hominems?

Not sure why you are so vested in believing unfettered capitalism never existed, but obviously you won't be dissuaded regardless of facts or links presented.

I think the Nazi party beat them to it. You seem to know their party better than they did.

Nazis have always been seen as RWers until the last decade or so. People over 50 know this to be true. As several have posted on this and similar threads, a more accurate viewpoint is that fascism was highly authoritarian with some elements of socialism, but definitely leaning right. Why the far Right seeks to label fascists as far Lefties is interesting even though it is wrong.

I've always seen Nazi's and Fascists stuck in the extreme rightwing category and Stalinists in the left. But some political theorists consider Hitler and Stalin to be their own category since they employed a mix of left and right ideologies.

Agreed, which is why a simple "Left-Right" scale is woefully insufficient. Even the L-R, Authoritarian-Libertarian scale has limits.

Stalin was a brutal dictator who used the Communist system of government to turn it into a Totalitarian Socialist state. Hitler used the Weimar Republic to turn it into a Fascist dictatorship. Both were highly authoritarian, but their states were not the same. The Commies still had the Politburo and Hitler was "Der Fuhrer" and answered to no one.

Even the US is difficult to quantify on such limited scales. Technically, we're a Federal Constitutional Republic, but we have several areas of strong authoritarianism, other areas of strong liberalism (classic type), strong capitalism but also elements of socialism.

Our nation is increasingly authoritarian. The struggle isn't between Authoritarianism vs Libertarianism as much as it is between LW authoritarianism vs. RW authoritarianism.

A more accurate method of quantifying a nation's government might be three dimensional like this:

 

[Divine Wind]

After America spent all those lives and money fighting fascism and now so many Americans don't even know what fascism might be, and worse, try to make it into a political philosophy that aids their political party.

True. Likewise, after all those years fighting Communism and Socialism, we have many Americans who want to turn the US into a socialist state. We call them "Democrats".

 

[Ravi]

I see trump as more of a Stalinist. He's already getting business to kowtow to his wishes. Though I suppose that is also a form of fascism.

 

[Divine Wind]

You love to hurl insults but don't expect them back...

Incorrect, but I can see why you want to believe this. How else can you justify constantly posting ad hominems?

Not sure why you are so vested in believing unfettered capitalism never existed, but obviously you won't be dissuaded regardless of facts or links presented.

I think the Nazi party beat them to it. You seem to know their party better than they did.

Nazis have always been seen as RWers until the last decade or so. People over 50 know this to be true. As several have posted on this and similar threads, a more accurate viewpoint is that fascism was highly authoritarian with some elements of socialism, but definitely leaning right. Why the far Right seeks to label fascists as far Lefties is interesting even though it is wrong.

I've always seen Nazi's and Fascists stuck in the extreme rightwing category and Stalinists in the left. But some political theorists consider Hitler and Stalin to be their own category since they employed a mix of left and right ideologies.

Begging the question. For like the 20th time, explain the difference between "right wing" fascism and left wing socialism with any MEANINGFUL difference.

Hint, I'm not looking for that business is free in fascism as long as they obey Hitler so he doesn't kill and replace them. That isn't free business

The Right Wing supports the elites, think Monarchy
The Left Wing supports the hoi polloi, think democracy

It's really that simple.

Both wings can become radicalized, the RW reactionary and resistant to change, the LW revolutionary and seeking immediate change.

So HIllary and George Soros are not elites?

What left wingers claim to believe in is mostly bullshit.

Agreed. More accurately, what passes for the "modern liberal" AKA Democrats, is a belief in a Liberal Elite who rule over others.

Example; they want to disarm the public "for their own good", but retain the need of armed body guards and gated homes to protect themselves "due to their position". They want to reduce the environmental "footprint" of all Americans while retaining the right to light up a huge mansion and fly around in 757s because they are the elite.

 

[Divine Wind]

I see trump as more of a Stalinist. He's already getting business to kowtow to his wishes. Though I suppose that is also a form of fascism.

Does this make you regret being such an anti-gun advocate?

 

[Divine Wind]

....There can be only TWO government types. Collectivist, and individualist. That is simple logic. The question about socialist vs fascist is merely the degree along the teeter totter you have traveled.

While that is certainly a legitimate way of viewing it, reality isn't so black and white.

Example, if we were Individualist, this means we have no need of public functions like police, firemen and the dept. of transportation to build and maintain roads. If we were completely collectivist, we'd be living the horror of a world as shown in THX-1138. What we need, and have to some extent, is a mix, the lines of which are subject to dispute.

 

[Divine Wind]

So when Hitler killed a socialist who was speaking against him, you actually believe the issue was that he was a socialist, not that he was speaking against him. Go ahead, say it, say that's what you believe. That would be stupid that's funny...

The point being is that Hitler was a fascist, not a socialist. Fascism isn't anymore socialism than North Korea is a Democratic Republic. I'm sorry you cannot seem to comprehend this point.

I've been fascinated over the past few years when the far Right meme that Hitler was a socialist surfaced. Anyone know who said it first? Was it Beck? He's pretty fucked up and it sounds like something he'd say. Rush?

I think it first surfaced with one Goldberg's book - Liberal Fascism. He tried to make a case that fascists and Hitler were all leftwing The idea that it is leftwing is new revisionism. It's kind of like the current attempt to claim Islam is not a religion.

No ma'am. The revisionism occurred back sixty and more years ago when the fabians convinced the world that you could have left wing socialism, and right wing socialism. The common denominator being socialism. We are merely trying to set the record straight. There can be only TWO government types. Collectivist, and individualist. That is simple logic. The question about socialist vs fascist is merely the degree along the teeter totter you have traveled.

I think we are bound to disagree on this one....as, I see it squarely on the right side of the teeter with the fascists themselves even stating they were right wing

Except for that "socialism" part in the very name of their Party. Just sayin....

Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

People's Republic of China.

Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.


None of those are/were Republics by any stretch of the imagination. A name means nothing, but actions mean everything.

 

[westwall]

....There can be only TWO government types. Collectivist, and individualist. That is simple logic. The question about socialist vs fascist is merely the degree along the teeter totter you have traveled.

While that is certainly a legitimate way of viewing it, reality isn't so black and white.

Example, if we were Individualist, this means we have no need of public functions like police, firemen and the dept. of transportation to build and maintain roads. If we were completely collectivist, we'd be living the horror of a world as shown in THX-1138. What we need, and have to some extent, is a mix, the lines of which are subject to dispute.

Ahhhh but it is grasshopper. Government is a teeter totter. On the far right you have anarchy, the ultimate form of individualist government in that the individual IS the government. On the far left you have totalitarian rule, via religious theocracy, atheistic dictatorship, or emperor. Whichever government type you are talking about they are all AUTHORITARIAN. All of the "isms" are merely points along that teeter totter.

 

[Divine Wind]

Ahhhh but it is grasshopper. Government is a teeter totter. On the far right you have anarchy, the ultimate form of individualist government in that the individual IS the government. On the far left you have totalitarian rule, via religious theocracy, atheistic dictatorship, or emperor. Whichever government type you are talking about they are all AUTHORITARIAN. All of the "isms" are merely points along that teeter totter.

Unfortunately, young one, you forget that even teeter-totters have a intermediate positions including a position of balance.

 

[kaz]

You love to hurl insults but don't expect them back...

Incorrect, but I can see why you want to believe this. How else can you justify constantly posting ad hominems?

Not sure why you are so vested in believing unfettered capitalism never existed, but obviously you won't be dissuaded regardless of facts or links presented.

I think the Nazi party beat them to it. You seem to know their party better than they did.

Nazis have always been seen as RWers until the last decade or so. People over 50 know this to be true. As several have posted on this and similar threads, a more accurate viewpoint is that fascism was highly authoritarian with some elements of socialism, but definitely leaning right. Why the far Right seeks to label fascists as far Lefties is interesting even though it is wrong.

I've always seen Nazi's and Fascists stuck in the extreme rightwing category and Stalinists in the left. But some political theorists consider Hitler and Stalin to be their own category since they employed a mix of left and right ideologies.

Begging the question. For like the 20th time, explain the difference between "right wing" fascism and left wing socialism with any MEANINGFUL difference.

Hint, I'm not looking for that business is free in fascism as long as they obey Hitler so he doesn't kill and replace them. That isn't free business

The Right Wing supports the elites, think Monarchy
The Left Wing supports the hoi polloi, think democracy

It's really that simple.

Both wings can become radicalized, the RW reactionary and resistant to change, the LW revolutionary and seeking immediate change.

Democrats ARE the elites. You're just a shill

 

[kaz]

The point being is that Hitler was a fascist, not a socialist. Fascism isn't anymore socialism than North Korea is a Democratic Republic. I'm sorry you cannot seem to comprehend this point.

I've been fascinated over the past few years when the far Right meme that Hitler was a socialist surfaced. Anyone know who said it first? Was it Beck? He's pretty fucked up and it sounds like something he'd say. Rush?

I think it first surfaced with one Goldberg's book - Liberal Fascism. He tried to make a case that fascists and Hitler were all leftwing The idea that it is leftwing is new revisionism. It's kind of like the current attempt to claim Islam is not a religion.

No ma'am. The revisionism occurred back sixty and more years ago when the fabians convinced the world that you could have left wing socialism, and right wing socialism. The common denominator being socialism. We are merely trying to set the record straight. There can be only TWO government types. Collectivist, and individualist. That is simple logic. The question about socialist vs fascist is merely the degree along the teeter totter you have traveled.

I think we are bound to disagree on this one....as, I see it squarely on the right side of the teeter with the fascists themselves even stating they were right wing

What fascists did that?

Mussolini
"Granted that the XIXth century was the century of socialism, liberalism, democracy, this does not mean that the XXth century must also be the century of socialism, liberalism, democracy. Political doctrines pass; nations remain. We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the " right ", a Fascist century."

If you ever wonder if Fascism is rightwing or not - you can read it for yourself in Mussolini's Doctrine of Fascism. Statism in and of itself does not make the ideology leftwing.

No, but government control over the economy is leftwing socialism, and Mussolini and Hitler were both socialists.

Note the only one claiming fascists are right wing in your post is ... you ... You still have zero from the fascists

 

[kaz]

Note the pattern Coyote of your ignoring the question I actually asked you

?

I backed it up in the posts following your question. If you disagreed with my answer, that is not my problem.

Bullshit, you never answered once my question, which is where Hitler was against SOCIALISM You keep arguing he killed socialists. You seriously don't understand the difference?

Explain how the blacks in Chicago who kill blacks aren't black. That he kills socialists doesn't prove shit.

And you keep ignoring my question to name any real differences between Fascist Germany and Communist Russia completely

Bullshit is right. I brought up multiple points.

You repeatedly presented quotes that didn't say what you said they said and then kept repeating that you provided it as if you had.

I've asked you this at least 20 times and you ran away every time, "name any real differences between Fascist Germany and Communist Russia."

If you actually answered it, man up to a post #

Post #451, 505, 738, for a start. I'm not going to look any further but multiple times I outlined the differences. Just because YOU don't think they are differences doesn't mean I haven't answered your question. But, just to make it absolutely clear - I have now posted yet another post.

Three would work if they answered the question. Here's the problem:

451: You said fascism is "survival of the fittest, strict social order, authoritarian leadership. You're saying Communist Russia isn't that? You can't be serious

505: Now you're arguing that authoritarian governments don't control the economy? WTF? You think the Nazis didn't control the economy? Name any authoritarian government that doesn't fascist or not. Authoritarian governments are all socialist left. Think about the term "authoritarian." How can that not cover the economy?

738: All that says is Hitler killed socialists. Again, blacks kill blacks in Chicago. Tell me how that makes them not black. That he killed the socialist ... who opposed him ... is your dumbest argument. Seriously, you think he killed them because they were socialists, not because they opposed him?

 

[westwall]

Ahhhh but it is grasshopper. Government is a teeter totter. On the far right you have anarchy, the ultimate form of individualist government in that the individual IS the government. On the far left you have totalitarian rule, via religious theocracy, atheistic dictatorship, or emperor. Whichever government type you are talking about they are all AUTHORITARIAN. All of the "isms" are merely points along that teeter totter.

Unfortunately, young one, you forget that even teeter-totters have a intermediate positions including a position of balance.

And that is fallacy the Fabian socialists have gotten you to believe. You tell me, what is the difference, to the individual, between a "left wing" authoritarian government, and a "right wing" authoritarian government?

 

[Divine Wind]

And that is fallacy the Fabian socialists have gotten you to believe. You tell me, what is the difference, to the individual, between a "left wing" authoritarian government, and a "right wing" authoritarian government?

How is recognizing that the world isn't only black and white a fallacy?

Who are these "Fabian socialists" you claim I've been taught my beliefs?

 

[Divine Wind]

No, but government control over the economy is leftwing socialism, and Mussolini and Hitler were both socialists. ...

Yet they both advocated racial superiority, saw homosexuality as a perversion and were strong proponents of the death penalty. Meaning they were conservative.

See how that works? If you want to claim something is true, you need to eat the whole enchilada.

 

[westwall]

And that is fallacy the Fabian socialists have gotten you to believe. You tell me, what is the difference, to the individual, between a "left wing" authoritarian government, and a "right wing" authoritarian government?

How is recognizing that the world isn't only black and white a fallacy?

Who are these "Fabian socialists" you claim I've been taught my beliefs?

Answer the question. What is the difference between a "right wing" authoritarian State and a "left wing" authoritarian State?

 

[Divine Wind]

And that is fallacy the Fabian socialists have gotten you to believe. You tell me, what is the difference, to the individual, between a "left wing" authoritarian government, and a "right wing" authoritarian government?

How is recognizing that the world isn't only black and white a fallacy?

Who are these "Fabian socialists" you claim I've been taught my beliefs?

Answer the question. What is the difference between a "right wing" authoritarian State and a "left wing" authoritarian State?

Scroll up, I already mentioned their methods of governing. Let's also toss in their domestic goals. Here is some light reading: What is the difference between Hitler and Stalin?

Spoiler: Difference between Hitler and Stalin

According to Jennifer Rosenberg of About.com, Hitler's aim with the Nazi party in control was to create pan-Germanism, where he would unite Germans living in different countries and expand Germany. Even though Hitler is also known for his purges, which sometimes included political enemies, he focused primarily on the Jews. The majority of men, women and children killed in his camps were Jews.

Stalin was a leader in the Communist party. After he took over, he went on to create collective farms and to industrialize the Soviet Union. Despite industrializing the nation, Stalin's legacy is most known for his paranoid purges of anti-communists. He imprisoned millions of people in camps and prisons that he believed were trying to undermine him.

Hitler and Stalin were briefly allies when Stalin signed a nonaggression pact with Hitler. However, Hitler betrayed Stalin and began to blitz and invade the Soviet Union. Despite great loss of life, the Soviet Union pushed back the Germans and aided in their defeat.

A final difference between the two men was their deaths. Hitler committed suicide with his wife Eva Braun when it was apparent Germany would be defeated. According to Biography.com, Stalin died of natural causes in 1953, right before beginning another purge.

Why do you claim stuff then run from answering backing it up?

 

[westwall]

And that is fallacy the Fabian socialists have gotten you to believe. You tell me, what is the difference, to the individual, between a "left wing" authoritarian government, and a "right wing" authoritarian government?

How is recognizing that the world isn't only black and white a fallacy?

Who are these "Fabian socialists" you claim I've been taught my beliefs?

Answer the question. What is the difference between a "right wing" authoritarian State and a "left wing" authoritarian State?

Scroll up, I already mentioned their methods of governing. Let's also toss in their domestic goals. Here is some light reading: What is the difference between Hitler and Stalin?

Spoiler: Difference between Hitler and Stalin

According to Jennifer Rosenberg of About.com, Hitler's aim with the Nazi party in control was to create pan-Germanism, where he would unite Germans living in different countries and expand Germany. Even though Hitler is also known for his purges, which sometimes included political enemies, he focused primarily on the Jews. The majority of men, women and children killed in his camps were Jews.

Stalin was a leader in the Communist party. After he took over, he went on to create collective farms and to industrialize the Soviet Union. Despite industrializing the nation, Stalin's legacy is most known for his paranoid purges of anti-communists. He imprisoned millions of people in camps and prisons that he believed were trying to undermine him.

Hitler and Stalin were briefly allies when Stalin signed a nonaggression pact with Hitler. However, Hitler betrayed Stalin and began to blitz and invade the Soviet Union. Despite great loss of life, the Soviet Union pushed back the Germans and aided in their defeat.

A final difference between the two men was their deaths. Hitler committed suicide with his wife Eva Braun when it was apparent Germany would be defeated. According to Biography.com, Stalin died of natural causes in 1953, right before beginning another purge.

Why do you claim stuff then run from answering backing it up?

You haven't answered the question yet. What is the difference, to the INDIVIDUAL,, between the two "different" authoritarian systems?

 

[Divine Wind]

And that is fallacy the Fabian socialists have gotten you to believe. You tell me, what is the difference, to the individual, between a "left wing" authoritarian government, and a "right wing" authoritarian government?

How is recognizing that the world isn't only black and white a fallacy?

Who are these "Fabian socialists" you claim I've been taught my beliefs?

Answer the question. What is the difference between a "right wing" authoritarian State and a "left wing" authoritarian State?

Scroll up, I already mentioned their methods of governing. Let's also toss in their domestic goals. Here is some light reading: What is the difference between Hitler and Stalin?

Spoiler: Difference between Hitler and Stalin

According to Jennifer Rosenberg of About.com, Hitler's aim with the Nazi party in control was to create pan-Germanism, where he would unite Germans living in different countries and expand Germany. Even though Hitler is also known for his purges, which sometimes included political enemies, he focused primarily on the Jews. The majority of men, women and children killed in his camps were Jews.

Stalin was a leader in the Communist party. After he took over, he went on to create collective farms and to industrialize the Soviet Union. Despite industrializing the nation, Stalin's legacy is most known for his paranoid purges of anti-communists. He imprisoned millions of people in camps and prisons that he believed were trying to undermine him.

Hitler and Stalin were briefly allies when Stalin signed a nonaggression pact with Hitler. However, Hitler betrayed Stalin and began to blitz and invade the Soviet Union. Despite great loss of life, the Soviet Union pushed back the Germans and aided in their defeat.

A final difference between the two men was their deaths. Hitler committed suicide with his wife Eva Braun when it was apparent Germany would be defeated. According to Biography.com, Stalin died of natural causes in 1953, right before beginning another purge.

Why do you claim stuff then run from answering backing it up?

You haven't answered the question yet. What is the difference, to the INDIVIDUAL,, between the two "different" authoritarian systems?

It depends on who that individual was. An good Aryan, a Jew, Gypsy, homosexual or simply a "counter-revolutionary". Name me the individual and we can discuss this more accurately. Again, why are you dodging my questions even though I'm doing my best to answer yours?

 

[westwall]

And that is fallacy the Fabian socialists have gotten you to believe. You tell me, what is the difference, to the individual, between a "left wing" authoritarian government, and a "right wing" authoritarian government?

How is recognizing that the world isn't only black and white a fallacy?

Who are these "Fabian socialists" you claim I've been taught my beliefs?

Answer the question. What is the difference between a "right wing" authoritarian State and a "left wing" authoritarian State?

Scroll up, I already mentioned their methods of governing. Let's also toss in their domestic goals. Here is some light reading: What is the difference between Hitler and Stalin?

Spoiler: Difference between Hitler and Stalin

According to Jennifer Rosenberg of About.com, Hitler's aim with the Nazi party in control was to create pan-Germanism, where he would unite Germans living in different countries and expand Germany. Even though Hitler is also known for his purges, which sometimes included political enemies, he focused primarily on the Jews. The majority of men, women and children killed in his camps were Jews.

Stalin was a leader in the Communist party. After he took over, he went on to create collective farms and to industrialize the Soviet Union. Despite industrializing the nation, Stalin's legacy is most known for his paranoid purges of anti-communists. He imprisoned millions of people in camps and prisons that he believed were trying to undermine him.

Hitler and Stalin were briefly allies when Stalin signed a nonaggression pact with Hitler. However, Hitler betrayed Stalin and began to blitz and invade the Soviet Union. Despite great loss of life, the Soviet Union pushed back the Germans and aided in their defeat.

A final difference between the two men was their deaths. Hitler committed suicide with his wife Eva Braun when it was apparent Germany would be defeated. According to Biography.com, Stalin died of natural causes in 1953, right before beginning another purge.

Why do you claim stuff then run from answering backing it up?

You haven't answered the question yet. What is the difference, to the INDIVIDUAL,, between the two "different" authoritarian systems?

It depends on who that individual was. An good Aryan, a Jew, Gypsy, homosexual or simply a "counter-revolutionary". Name me the individual and we can discuss this more accurately. Again, why are you dodging my questions even though I'm doing my best to answer yours?

So, depending who the ruling elite decides they don't like it is all equally bad. Is that what you're saying? The Soviets hated Jews every bit as much as the Germans did, so let's talk about them. What was the difference to a Jew between Soviet Russia, and Nazi Germany?