Fedgov vs Apple : In re Iphone "backdoor"

[Contumacious]

The government wants a backdoor - the government bureaucrats believes that they have a right to spy on us now that the fourth amendment is no longer in effect.

Really? Well, good luck finding one.

Back to the subject:
Would there be any problem with Apple voluntarily putting together a one-time software package inside Apple's own plant, using it to unlock this terrorists' phone, handing the govt all the records from the phone, and then destroying the software package so no one could ever modify it or use it on any other phone?

Apple is saying no can do.

It is THEIR software. THEIR business.


.

The government isn't doing anything to their software or their business. They are trying to investigate a crime they had nothing to do with. There is no threat to them

Why is Apple refusing to comply if it is true that encryption is not adversely affected?

Are they Jihadists?

Are they terrorists?


,

 

[Little-Acorn]

The government isn't doing anything to their software or their business. They are trying to investigate a crime they had nothing to do with. There is no threat to them

Of course not. We can trust the government to not abuse the phone-hacking software they are demanding from Apple. Can't we?

 

[Contumacious]

The government isn't doing anything to their software or their business. They are trying to investigate a crime they had nothing to do with. There is no threat to them

Of course not. We can trust the government to not abuse the phone-hacking software they are demanding from Apple. Can't we?

The three biggest lies

1- the check is in the mail
2- I won't come in your mouth
3-We can trust the government to not abuse the phone-hacking software they are demanding from Apple


.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

The FBI may charge Apple with aiding terrorists.

Somehow I doubt all of the FBI's capabilities of gathering intelligence of terrorist connections is at the mercy of one iPhone. To think Cook has managed to make the FBI ineffective and obsolete with just one device.

 

[the_human_being]

 

[Jarlaxle]

I believe the Fed govt can't force Apple to create and give them a key that will un-encrypt all Apple phones.

They can (with a warrant, which they have) compel Apple to tell them what's in that terrorists' phone.

Why doesn't Apple say something like this?

"We want to catch and defeat these terrorists as much as you do. So we'll tell you what we'll do. You hand us that terrorists' phone, and one of your technical guys can come with it to watch everything we'll do. We'll set up a sealed room that WiFi signals can't penetrate, and have no electronic connections in or out of the room.

"We'll put several high-powered computers in there, and have three of our most experienced encryption people work on this phone. Your technical guy can go with them to observe everything, and he can ask them all the questions he wants. But he cannot make any notes or recordings. If they need more software or tables or whatever, they will bring them into the room on media such as flash drives, DVD-ROMS, etc. But nothing that is brought into the room, will ever be brought out again, except the people and the terrorists' phone itself. After a few days, or maybe a week or two, they will come out and hand you complete records of EVERYTHING that is in that phone.

"And immediately after they do that, all the computers, media, and everything else in the room, will be destroyed. And we'll send you the bill for the people's time, the cost of the equipment, etc.

"Then we will be able to tell all our customers truthfully, that there is NO software or program in existence that can decrypt their Apple phone, because it was all destroyed immediately after we decrypted that one terrorists' phone. None of the people who did it (or the govt technician who watched it done) have any notes or records of what they did. They have the thoughts in their heads, of course, but they won't be able to decrypt any other phone unless they go through the entire software-development effort again.

"We are NOT giving the government ANYTHING they could possibly use to decrypt any phone, anywhere. We are giving them only the contents of that one terrorists' phone."

"And if they capture another terrorists' phone next year and get a warrant to decrypt it, we will set up the room again and go through the entire effort again, re-inventing the wheel, and then destroy the system, software, and records immediately afterward.

"That's the deal. Take it or leave it."


Any problem with this?

Yes. It is quite simple. One more time, the instant the phone is hacked, no iPhone is secure anymore! And EVERYONE realizes this! Yes, it is that simple.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

The government wants a backdoor - the government bureaucrats believes that they have a right to spy on us now that the fourth amendment is no longer in effect.

Really? Well, good luck finding one.

Back to the subject:
Would there be any problem with Apple voluntarily putting together a one-time software package inside Apple's own plant, using it to unlock this terrorists' phone, handing the govt all the records from the phone, and then destroying the software package so no one could ever modify it or use it on any other phone?

Apple is saying no can do.

It is THEIR software. THEIR business.


.

The government isn't doing anything to their software or their business. They are trying to investigate a crime they had nothing to do with. There is no threat to them

Hillary said she didn't send or receive sensitive e-mials on her server. Holder said he didn't know about Fast and Furious. Lerner said the reason she threw out her hard drive in the IRS scandal is because it crashed. DumBama said his healthcare plan would bring down premium costs and you can keep your doctor and insurance company.

Apple has brought us the most technological gadgets we have today. Apple has created the most desirable products and put thousands to work in good paying jobs.

I trust Apple. I don't trust what the government says.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

They cant compel you period. What makes you think that the government should have the right to compel you to perform work for them?

A warrant has nothing to do with compulsion - it has to do with suspending your rights against searches.

Finally, where have I made any statement that Apple is protecting anything other than perhaps their own bottom line. It really is not a matter of weather or not you agree with Apple's position. It really has to do with weather or not you think the government should have the power to force you to produce a product for them or force you to serve them in whatever endeavor they may dream up for you.

If you believe in freedom then the answer is crystal clear - no the do not. If you are a totalitarian then sure, why not allow with government to come into your home and demand that you search your neighbors hose - they are the government after all.

So if I agree with the fourth amendment, I'm against freedom, got it. This message has been brought to you by the anarchists are as big a crack pots as liberals are organization.

If you guys want to hold hands and jump off a cliff together, be my guest. Sure, the warrant isn't being served on Apple, Apple just needs to do limited work within the capabilities of it's organization to help them get it.

I hope they start arresting Apple executives until they get it. And Apple is the scum of the earth for doing actions that accomplish nothing but the death of more innocent people

Nope. This is not a 4th amendment issue. I know I have already explained it and I know you want to ignore it because you have no argument whatsoever. Continue prattling on about your straw man - it shows how weak your position is.

Of course it's a fourth amendment issue. Apple is blocking government from pursuing criminals. Your strawman that government wanted them to do it for them was preposterous. Government just wanted them to provide access to the data. Everything was normal course of business for Apple. They were being accused of nothing, were putting themselves at no risk and were being asked for nothing extraordinary. There is nothing different than government seeing evidence of a crime on your property and you say sorry, you can't take it and you can't get a warrant because you know I am not the one who did anything. So it stays in my yard.

A lot of people died. Anyone who helped them could help others do the same thing. There is no reason to defend that other than being an ass. Which is what anarchists love to be. The idea that government can't step on your property and get evidence when it doesn't harm you in any way is retarded. As is that Apple can't be compelled to give access to evidence of a crime when there is ample probable cause, they just aren't the criminal, they just are blocking access to the evidence

Preposterous? That is exactly what is happening. The key to the phone does not exist. There isn't one. What the government wants is for one to be CREATED.

They are demanding apple to create it.

No different than wanting to access my house and requiring the local locksmith to come down and do it for them. If you do not see the obvious then there is little I can do. What you are calling a straw man is nothing of the sort - it is the core problem. Again, had this been any other issue I have no doubt that you would have been all over the government forcing people to do their dirty work for them. Suddenly everything changes when terrorism is involved. I am unwilling to give up freedoms or increase government powers simply because they chose another boogeyman to scare us into doing so.

This particular boogeyman is not even close to the scale that justifies such an expansion of powers.

When you keep saying I want Apple to do the government's job for them, that is a strawman, no two ways about it. It's the government's job to solve crimes and I never said Apple needs to do anything to solve the crime.

And you didn't answer the question. Same situation. There's a Manson style murder scene next door to you. Evidence is in your yard. You refuse to grant access to them to retrieve it. According to you, they can't get a warrant to get it unless they have probable cause to investigate you for the crime. But they don't think you did it, they just want the evidence.

So, they're screwed? They can't get it?

Apples and oranges. The FBI is not asking Apple if they can get into the phone. They have the phone. If they want to get into it, then go right ahead. Apple is not protesting or stopping them from that.

To correct your analogy, let's say the same thing happened, and the police get a warrant, search your property, and find a smart phone which they can't get into. Because it was on your property, the police get a court order forcing you to use your own money and find a way to get into that phone because it was technically your property.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Tim Cook: Apple Won't Create 'Backdoor' to Help FBI Access San Bernardino Shooter's iPhone

Cook concludes Apple's open letter by saying the company's opposition to the order is not an action they took lightly and that they challenge the request "with the deepest respect for democracy and a love for our country." Ultimately, Apple fears these demands would "undermine the very freedoms and liberty our government is meant to protect."


Contumacious applauds Mr. Tim Cook.

What the government is asking for will destroy Apple.

Under the old Constitution (1787-1935) Apple had rights protected by the 4 and 5th Amendments. It also had a right to Judicial Review.

That is no longer available. Mr Cook is own his own.

An Article III Judge would have demanded that the government stop meddling in the internal affairs of other nations.

A scumbag spineless impostor pretending to be a judge will simply comply with the FBI's request.


.For shame.

If I could help get people who assisted in someone murdering his co-workers and waging war on the American people, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

There is no freedom in being dead. You have so many better issues of government atrocities to focus on. The Constitution is there to protect the innocent, not the guilty.

Thomas Jefferson: "strict observance of the written law is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to the written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the ends to the means."

The Constitution wasn't a suicide pact

The Constitution wasn't a suicide pact

That cliche does not apply in these proceedings in any way shape or form

1) Congress has NO authority to meddle in the internal affairs of other nations, specifically, it has no authority to created "terrorists", actually avengers

2- You have no idea what happened in San Bernardino ; the incident occurred in a government building , lots of police cruises with dashcams yet they have failed or refused to share any videos with the populace - that in my book is fucked up - they are concealing something

3- the executive branch has no authority to concoct scam simply because they don't like encryption - the motherfuckers actually believe that they have authority to spy on us ; since we are now a banana republic I'm certain the government will destroy Apple -- but I'm also certain that the blackmarket will compensate by creating encryption not subject to any government's jurisdiction


.

They can't just compel you. They have to go to court and get a warrant or you have to agree to do it for them. In this case they aren't even doing it without a warrant, they have one. And with good reason. Going into a room and shooting a bunch of people is clearly "probable cause"


Apple isn't protecting anyone. No one but bad guys would be upset they helped the police investigate a mass shooting At this point everyone including the bad guys know they can tap the phone This is a case of zero benefit, they are just helping terrorists murder people and the people who help them get away with it

They cant compel you period. What makes you think that the government should have the right to compel you to perform work for them?

A warrant has nothing to do with compulsion - it has to do with suspending your rights against searches.

Finally, where have I made any statement that Apple is protecting anything other than perhaps their own bottom line. It really is not a matter of weather or not you agree with Apple's position. It really has to do with weather or not you think the government should have the power to force you to produce a product for them or force you to serve them in whatever endeavor they may dream up for you.

If you believe in freedom then the answer is crystal clear - no the do not. If you are a totalitarian then sure, why not allow with government to come into your home and demand that you search your neighbors hose - they are the government after all.

So if I agree with the fourth amendment, I'm against freedom, got it. This message has been brought to you by the anarchists are as big a crack pots as liberals are organization.

If you guys want to hold hands and jump off a cliff together, be my guest. Sure, the warrant isn't being served on Apple, Apple just needs to do limited work within the capabilities of it's organization to help them get it.

I hope they start arresting Apple executives until they get it. And Apple is the scum of the earth for doing actions that accomplish nothing but the death of more innocent people

What Apple is doing is protecting their products and customers. What the government is doing is trying to force Apple to compromise their products and customers which are the American people.

 

[Rustic]

If I could help get people who assisted in someone murdering his co-workers and waging war on the American people, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

There is no freedom in being dead. You have so many better issues of government atrocities to focus on. The Constitution is there to protect the innocent, not the guilty.

Thomas Jefferson: "strict observance of the written law is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to the written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the ends to the means."

The Constitution wasn't a suicide pact

The Constitution wasn't a suicide pact

That cliche does not apply in these proceedings in any way shape or form

1) Congress has NO authority to meddle in the internal affairs of other nations, specifically, it has no authority to created "terrorists", actually avengers

2- You have no idea what happened in San Bernardino ; the incident occurred in a government building , lots of police cruises with dashcams yet they have failed or refused to share any videos with the populace - that in my book is fucked up - they are concealing something

3- the executive branch has no authority to concoct scam simply because they don't like encryption - the motherfuckers actually believe that they have authority to spy on us ; since we are now a banana republic I'm certain the government will destroy Apple -- but I'm also certain that the blackmarket will compensate by creating encryption not subject to any government's jurisdiction


.

They can't just compel you. They have to go to court and get a warrant or you have to agree to do it for them. In this case they aren't even doing it without a warrant, they have one. And with good reason. Going into a room and shooting a bunch of people is clearly "probable cause"


Apple isn't protecting anyone. No one but bad guys would be upset they helped the police investigate a mass shooting At this point everyone including the bad guys know they can tap the phone This is a case of zero benefit, they are just helping terrorists murder people and the people who help them get away with it

They cant compel you period. What makes you think that the government should have the right to compel you to perform work for them?

A warrant has nothing to do with compulsion - it has to do with suspending your rights against searches.

Finally, where have I made any statement that Apple is protecting anything other than perhaps their own bottom line. It really is not a matter of weather or not you agree with Apple's position. It really has to do with weather or not you think the government should have the power to force you to produce a product for them or force you to serve them in whatever endeavor they may dream up for you.

If you believe in freedom then the answer is crystal clear - no the do not. If you are a totalitarian then sure, why not allow with government to come into your home and demand that you search your neighbors hose - they are the government after all.

So if I agree with the fourth amendment, I'm against freedom, got it. This message has been brought to you by the anarchists are as big a crack pots as liberals are organization.

If you guys want to hold hands and jump off a cliff together, be my guest. Sure, the warrant isn't being served on Apple, Apple just needs to do limited work within the capabilities of it's organization to help them get it.

I hope they start arresting Apple executives until they get it. And Apple is the scum of the earth for doing actions that accomplish nothing but the death of more innocent people

What Apple is doing is protecting their products and customers. What the government is doing is trying to force Apple to compromise their products and customers which are the American people.

Fuck the federal government, good for Apple....

 

[FA_Q2]

You are a small government libertarian that believes the government has the right to demand labor from you to do its job for them.

I already addressed this strawman. You can't show any quote I wanted Apple to solve or investicate anything. That's government's job to investigate it. Repeating a lie doesn't make it truth. Apple just needs to provide access to he data. A capability they have in their normal course of business. They've already spent more on lawyers fighting it than it would have cost to provide it.

So you seriously believe that if a horrific mass murder were committed next door and a piece of evidence was sitting in your yard, you can tell the police they can't have it and they can't get it even with a warrant unless they have probable cause that you committed the crime because you're a third party? Seriously?

You need to read the Jefferson quote again, he wrote it for you. Anarchy is a death pact. You want the chance to show your ideology is driven by your inability to function with other people, like simply allowing the police to gather evidence in trying to solve a crime

I am not an anarchist so you are going to have to argue that idiocy with someone else.

And no, Apple does not have the the capability through their normal course of business to access the phone. That is the point. If they already had access then there would be no case - a warrant allows the government to freely search and obtain such a key. The fact that it does not exist and they want Apple to create it for them is another story altogether.

Again with this suicide pact bullshit as well. As I already pointed out, that is a misnomer. There is no suicide pact at all.

OK, so you're not an anarchist, you just want to hold hands with them and jump off the cliff.

No, I don't. I have a fundamental disagreement with anarchists in that the government exists for a reason and is a necessity.

While I believe in small government and the protection of rights - that is a far cry from the lack of any real access to your rights that an anarchy gives you.

Who's rights to you think you are fighting for exactly? Apple's right's aren't at risk, the government obviously doesn't think they had anything to do with the crime. Government has probable cause to investigate the shooters. You're protecting anyone who helped them. Other than trying to create more victims, what do you want out of this?

I am not trying to create more victims nor will I. The idea that the government itself cannot crack the phone is silly. They want the ability to easily obtain a backdoor to any technological device so they not only do not have to crack such devices but also so they can do so whenever they want with little to no investment of resources. At this time, it takes significant time and resources to do so meaning that they are very limited in the scope and number of devices they can crack at any given moment. Enshrine the ability to DEMAND a backdoor is built in then poof - they can access anything any time. This is the beginning of building the legal framework that pigeonhole companies to having that backdoor readily available. The idea that the phone itself is some key to protecting us from terrorism is also absolutely silly. There is nothing on the phone and now we are running around with our hair on fire demanding that we are in a 'suicide pact' because months later Apple is not being forced into creating a key to access phones for the government. If this really was a serious case they would have bothered to crack the phone months ago and spent the resources doing so.

They did not.

As far as rights - I have been crystal clear. I do not support the government having the ability to force anyone to search or crack or do anything so that they can investigate a third party.

 

[FA_Q2]

They cant compel you period. What makes you think that the government should have the right to compel you to perform work for them?

A warrant has nothing to do with compulsion - it has to do with suspending your rights against searches.

Finally, where have I made any statement that Apple is protecting anything other than perhaps their own bottom line. It really is not a matter of weather or not you agree with Apple's position. It really has to do with weather or not you think the government should have the power to force you to produce a product for them or force you to serve them in whatever endeavor they may dream up for you.

If you believe in freedom then the answer is crystal clear - no the do not. If you are a totalitarian then sure, why not allow with government to come into your home and demand that you search your neighbors hose - they are the government after all.

So if I agree with the fourth amendment, I'm against freedom, got it. This message has been brought to you by the anarchists are as big a crack pots as liberals are organization.

If you guys want to hold hands and jump off a cliff together, be my guest. Sure, the warrant isn't being served on Apple, Apple just needs to do limited work within the capabilities of it's organization to help them get it.

I hope they start arresting Apple executives until they get it. And Apple is the scum of the earth for doing actions that accomplish nothing but the death of more innocent people

Nope. This is not a 4th amendment issue. I know I have already explained it and I know you want to ignore it because you have no argument whatsoever. Continue prattling on about your straw man - it shows how weak your position is.

Of course it's a fourth amendment issue. Apple is blocking government from pursuing criminals. Your strawman that government wanted them to do it for them was preposterous. Government just wanted them to provide access to the data. Everything was normal course of business for Apple. They were being accused of nothing, were putting themselves at no risk and were being asked for nothing extraordinary. There is nothing different than government seeing evidence of a crime on your property and you say sorry, you can't take it and you can't get a warrant because you know I am not the one who did anything. So it stays in my yard.

A lot of people died. Anyone who helped them could help others do the same thing. There is no reason to defend that other than being an ass. Which is what anarchists love to be. The idea that government can't step on your property and get evidence when it doesn't harm you in any way is retarded. As is that Apple can't be compelled to give access to evidence of a crime when there is ample probable cause, they just aren't the criminal, they just are blocking access to the evidence

Preposterous? That is exactly what is happening. The key to the phone does not exist. There isn't one. What the government wants is for one to be CREATED.

They are demanding apple to create it.

No different than wanting to access my house and requiring the local locksmith to come down and do it for them. If you do not see the obvious then there is little I can do. What you are calling a straw man is nothing of the sort - it is the core problem. Again, had this been any other issue I have no doubt that you would have been all over the government forcing people to do their dirty work for them. Suddenly everything changes when terrorism is involved. I am unwilling to give up freedoms or increase government powers simply because they chose another boogeyman to scare us into doing so.

This particular boogeyman is not even close to the scale that justifies such an expansion of powers.

When you keep saying I want Apple to do the government's job for them, that is a strawman, no two ways about it. It's the government's job to solve crimes and I never said Apple needs to do anything to solve the crime.

And you didn't answer the question. Same situation. There's a Manson style murder scene next door to you. Evidence is in your yard. You refuse to grant access to them to retrieve it. According to you, they can't get a warrant to get it unless they have probable cause to investigate you for the crime. But they don't think you did it, they just want the evidence.

So, they're screwed? They can't get it?

No. I have never stated that. they can easily aquire a warrant to search my property in the pursuit of investigating a crime. What they cannot do is come over to my house and demand that I open my neighbors house for them.

"When you keep saying I want Apple to do the government's job for them, that is a strawman, no two ways about it. It's the government's job to solve crimes and I never said Apple needs to do anything to solve the crime."
Bullshit. You want Apple to create a product in order to gain access to data that the FBI wants. It is the governments job to gain that access - they collect trillions of dollars in taxes every year to employ people. Some of which work for the FBI and are tech experts. They have access to some of the most advanced technology on the entire damn planet. They can do the job - you think Apple should be compelled to do it for them.

 

[kaz]

The government wants a backdoor - the government bureaucrats believes that they have a right to spy on us now that the fourth amendment is no longer in effect.

Really? Well, good luck finding one.

Back to the subject:
Would there be any problem with Apple voluntarily putting together a one-time software package inside Apple's own plant, using it to unlock this terrorists' phone, handing the govt all the records from the phone, and then destroying the software package so no one could ever modify it or use it on any other phone?

Why would it be one time ? At that point apple admits theyve made the key. Now law enforcement can demand it whenever they need it .

Only if they have a warrant which requires probable cause

 

[kaz]

The government wants a backdoor - the government bureaucrats believes that they have a right to spy on us now that the fourth amendment is no longer in effect.

Really? Well, good luck finding one.

Back to the subject:
Would there be any problem with Apple voluntarily putting together a one-time software package inside Apple's own plant, using it to unlock this terrorists' phone, handing the govt all the records from the phone, and then destroying the software package so no one could ever modify it or use it on any other phone?

Apple is saying no can do.

It is THEIR software. THEIR business.


.

The government isn't doing anything to their software or their business. They are trying to investigate a crime they had nothing to do with. There is no threat to them

Why is Apple refusing to comply if it is true that encryption is not adversely affected?

Are they Jihadists?

Are they terrorists?


,

It's ideology, the left is wrong on every issue, this is the left being wrong again.

No one is going to not buy Apple products because they help the police investigate a brutal terrorist attack. Everyone now knows they could help police so there's no facade they can't do it. There is no benefit to them to not assist in getting the data

 

[kaz]

The government isn't doing anything to their software or their business. They are trying to investigate a crime they had nothing to do with. There is no threat to them

Of course not. We can trust the government to not abuse the phone-hacking software they are demanding from Apple. Can't we?

If that's what government wanted out of this, they wouldn't be doing the public display, they'd be quietly blackmailing Apple behind the scenes.

And who said Apple has to give the government the code rather than just the data?

 

[kaz]

So if I agree with the fourth amendment, I'm against freedom, got it. This message has been brought to you by the anarchists are as big a crack pots as liberals are organization.

If you guys want to hold hands and jump off a cliff together, be my guest. Sure, the warrant isn't being served on Apple, Apple just needs to do limited work within the capabilities of it's organization to help them get it.

I hope they start arresting Apple executives until they get it. And Apple is the scum of the earth for doing actions that accomplish nothing but the death of more innocent people

Nope. This is not a 4th amendment issue. I know I have already explained it and I know you want to ignore it because you have no argument whatsoever. Continue prattling on about your straw man - it shows how weak your position is.

Of course it's a fourth amendment issue. Apple is blocking government from pursuing criminals. Your strawman that government wanted them to do it for them was preposterous. Government just wanted them to provide access to the data. Everything was normal course of business for Apple. They were being accused of nothing, were putting themselves at no risk and were being asked for nothing extraordinary. There is nothing different than government seeing evidence of a crime on your property and you say sorry, you can't take it and you can't get a warrant because you know I am not the one who did anything. So it stays in my yard.

A lot of people died. Anyone who helped them could help others do the same thing. There is no reason to defend that other than being an ass. Which is what anarchists love to be. The idea that government can't step on your property and get evidence when it doesn't harm you in any way is retarded. As is that Apple can't be compelled to give access to evidence of a crime when there is ample probable cause, they just aren't the criminal, they just are blocking access to the evidence

Preposterous? That is exactly what is happening. The key to the phone does not exist. There isn't one. What the government wants is for one to be CREATED.

They are demanding apple to create it.

No different than wanting to access my house and requiring the local locksmith to come down and do it for them. If you do not see the obvious then there is little I can do. What you are calling a straw man is nothing of the sort - it is the core problem. Again, had this been any other issue I have no doubt that you would have been all over the government forcing people to do their dirty work for them. Suddenly everything changes when terrorism is involved. I am unwilling to give up freedoms or increase government powers simply because they chose another boogeyman to scare us into doing so.

This particular boogeyman is not even close to the scale that justifies such an expansion of powers.

When you keep saying I want Apple to do the government's job for them, that is a strawman, no two ways about it. It's the government's job to solve crimes and I never said Apple needs to do anything to solve the crime.

And you didn't answer the question. Same situation. There's a Manson style murder scene next door to you. Evidence is in your yard. You refuse to grant access to them to retrieve it. According to you, they can't get a warrant to get it unless they have probable cause to investigate you for the crime. But they don't think you did it, they just want the evidence.

So, they're screwed? They can't get it?

Apples and oranges. The FBI is not asking Apple if they can get into the phone. They have the phone. If they want to get into it, then go right ahead. Apple is not protesting or stopping them from that.

To correct your analogy, let's say the same thing happened, and the police get a warrant, search your property, and find a smart phone which they can't get into. Because it was on your property, the police get a court order forcing you to use your own money and find a way to get into that phone because it was technically your property.

Fair enough on the discussion, but that wasn't my point. My point was specifically to FA_Q2 on his contention that citizens cannot be served a warrant or compelled to cooperate with gathering evidence as a third party. Either he stands by that even in a ridiculously absurd case showing that he's just ideology driven or he agrees they can take the evidence and then the question is where he draws the line.

I have a clear line. With no risk and no material cost, citizens should help police investigate crimes. Apple is clearly 100% above suspicion in this. No one thinks Apple had anything to do with it. This isn't a back door to do anything to Apple. And the cost to them would not dent the smallest digit in their annual report.

FA_Q2 not so much. Based on his declared standard, the police cannot go on your property without a warrant and they cannot serve a warrant to a third party or in any way "compel" them to reply.

So, next door eight people got shot. There's a gun lying in clear view in your yard. You refuse to grant access to them to get the gun. Just asking him to confirm that's his standard, the one he said is his standard. The police cannot get the gun

 

[kaz]

If I could help get people who assisted in someone murdering his co-workers and waging war on the American people, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

There is no freedom in being dead. You have so many better issues of government atrocities to focus on. The Constitution is there to protect the innocent, not the guilty.

Thomas Jefferson: "strict observance of the written law is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to the written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the ends to the means."

The Constitution wasn't a suicide pact

The Constitution wasn't a suicide pact

That cliche does not apply in these proceedings in any way shape or form

1) Congress has NO authority to meddle in the internal affairs of other nations, specifically, it has no authority to created "terrorists", actually avengers

2- You have no idea what happened in San Bernardino ; the incident occurred in a government building , lots of police cruises with dashcams yet they have failed or refused to share any videos with the populace - that in my book is fucked up - they are concealing something

3- the executive branch has no authority to concoct scam simply because they don't like encryption - the motherfuckers actually believe that they have authority to spy on us ; since we are now a banana republic I'm certain the government will destroy Apple -- but I'm also certain that the blackmarket will compensate by creating encryption not subject to any government's jurisdiction


.

They can't just compel you. They have to go to court and get a warrant or you have to agree to do it for them. In this case they aren't even doing it without a warrant, they have one. And with good reason. Going into a room and shooting a bunch of people is clearly "probable cause"


Apple isn't protecting anyone. No one but bad guys would be upset they helped the police investigate a mass shooting At this point everyone including the bad guys know they can tap the phone This is a case of zero benefit, they are just helping terrorists murder people and the people who help them get away with it

They cant compel you period. What makes you think that the government should have the right to compel you to perform work for them?

A warrant has nothing to do with compulsion - it has to do with suspending your rights against searches.

Finally, where have I made any statement that Apple is protecting anything other than perhaps their own bottom line. It really is not a matter of weather or not you agree with Apple's position. It really has to do with weather or not you think the government should have the power to force you to produce a product for them or force you to serve them in whatever endeavor they may dream up for you.

If you believe in freedom then the answer is crystal clear - no the do not. If you are a totalitarian then sure, why not allow with government to come into your home and demand that you search your neighbors hose - they are the government after all.

So if I agree with the fourth amendment, I'm against freedom, got it. This message has been brought to you by the anarchists are as big a crack pots as liberals are organization.

If you guys want to hold hands and jump off a cliff together, be my guest. Sure, the warrant isn't being served on Apple, Apple just needs to do limited work within the capabilities of it's organization to help them get it.

I hope they start arresting Apple executives until they get it. And Apple is the scum of the earth for doing actions that accomplish nothing but the death of more innocent people

What Apple is doing is protecting their products and customers. What the government is doing is trying to force Apple to compromise their products and customers which are the American people.

protecting them from what? getting killed by terrorists? Or if they are terrorists getting caught?

I'd grant your point if Apple's contention was they cannot decrypt the data. Then that would be a point to a lot of people that want to transmit all sorts of sensitive information.

But now we all know Apple can decrypt So seriously, who is protected by them not going ahead and doing it? You're not going to buy their phones becasue they helped the San Bernardino investigation determine if anyone else is involved? If you have sensitive information you don't want to be transmitted, the horse is out of the barn. you know they can and now it's just a matter of process if they do it or not

 

[kaz]

The Constitution wasn't a suicide pact

That cliche does not apply in these proceedings in any way shape or form

1) Congress has NO authority to meddle in the internal affairs of other nations, specifically, it has no authority to created "terrorists", actually avengers

2- You have no idea what happened in San Bernardino ; the incident occurred in a government building , lots of police cruises with dashcams yet they have failed or refused to share any videos with the populace - that in my book is fucked up - they are concealing something

3- the executive branch has no authority to concoct scam simply because they don't like encryption - the motherfuckers actually believe that they have authority to spy on us ; since we are now a banana republic I'm certain the government will destroy Apple -- but I'm also certain that the blackmarket will compensate by creating encryption not subject to any government's jurisdiction


.

They can't just compel you. They have to go to court and get a warrant or you have to agree to do it for them. In this case they aren't even doing it without a warrant, they have one. And with good reason. Going into a room and shooting a bunch of people is clearly "probable cause"


Apple isn't protecting anyone. No one but bad guys would be upset they helped the police investigate a mass shooting At this point everyone including the bad guys know they can tap the phone This is a case of zero benefit, they are just helping terrorists murder people and the people who help them get away with it

They cant compel you period. What makes you think that the government should have the right to compel you to perform work for them?

A warrant has nothing to do with compulsion - it has to do with suspending your rights against searches.

Finally, where have I made any statement that Apple is protecting anything other than perhaps their own bottom line. It really is not a matter of weather or not you agree with Apple's position. It really has to do with weather or not you think the government should have the power to force you to produce a product for them or force you to serve them in whatever endeavor they may dream up for you.

If you believe in freedom then the answer is crystal clear - no the do not. If you are a totalitarian then sure, why not allow with government to come into your home and demand that you search your neighbors hose - they are the government after all.

So if I agree with the fourth amendment, I'm against freedom, got it. This message has been brought to you by the anarchists are as big a crack pots as liberals are organization.

If you guys want to hold hands and jump off a cliff together, be my guest. Sure, the warrant isn't being served on Apple, Apple just needs to do limited work within the capabilities of it's organization to help them get it.

I hope they start arresting Apple executives until they get it. And Apple is the scum of the earth for doing actions that accomplish nothing but the death of more innocent people

What Apple is doing is protecting their products and customers. What the government is doing is trying to force Apple to compromise their products and customers which are the American people.

Fuck the federal government, good for Apple....

good for ISIS. I may not want to fight a war with them unless they threaten us, but helping them get away with attacks isn't my bag either

 

[kaz]

You are a small government libertarian that believes the government has the right to demand labor from you to do its job for them.

I already addressed this strawman. You can't show any quote I wanted Apple to solve or investicate anything. That's government's job to investigate it. Repeating a lie doesn't make it truth. Apple just needs to provide access to he data. A capability they have in their normal course of business. They've already spent more on lawyers fighting it than it would have cost to provide it.

So you seriously believe that if a horrific mass murder were committed next door and a piece of evidence was sitting in your yard, you can tell the police they can't have it and they can't get it even with a warrant unless they have probable cause that you committed the crime because you're a third party? Seriously?

You need to read the Jefferson quote again, he wrote it for you. Anarchy is a death pact. You want the chance to show your ideology is driven by your inability to function with other people, like simply allowing the police to gather evidence in trying to solve a crime

I am not an anarchist so you are going to have to argue that idiocy with someone else.

And no, Apple does not have the the capability through their normal course of business to access the phone. That is the point. If they already had access then there would be no case - a warrant allows the government to freely search and obtain such a key. The fact that it does not exist and they want Apple to create it for them is another story altogether.

Again with this suicide pact bullshit as well. As I already pointed out, that is a misnomer. There is no suicide pact at all.

OK, so you're not an anarchist, you just want to hold hands with them and jump off the cliff.

No, I don't. I have a fundamental disagreement with anarchists in that the government exists for a reason and is a necessity.

While I believe in small government and the protection of rights - that is a far cry from the lack of any real access to your rights that an anarchy gives you.

Who's rights to you think you are fighting for exactly? Apple's right's aren't at risk, the government obviously doesn't think they had anything to do with the crime. Government has probable cause to investigate the shooters. You're protecting anyone who helped them. Other than trying to create more victims, what do you want out of this?

I am not trying to create more victims nor will I. The idea that the government itself cannot crack the phone is silly. They want the ability to easily obtain a backdoor to any technological device so they not only do not have to crack such devices but also so they can do so whenever they want with little to no investment of resources. At this time, it takes significant time and resources to do so meaning that they are very limited in the scope and number of devices they can crack at any given moment. Enshrine the ability to DEMAND a backdoor is built in then poof - they can access anything any time. This is the beginning of building the legal framework that pigeonhole companies to having that backdoor readily available. The idea that the phone itself is some key to protecting us from terrorism is also absolutely silly. There is nothing on the phone and now we are running around with our hair on fire demanding that we are in a 'suicide pact' because months later Apple is not being forced into creating a key to access phones for the government. If this really was a serious case they would have bothered to crack the phone months ago and spent the resources doing so.

They did not.

As far as rights - I have been crystal clear. I do not support the government having the ability to force anyone to search or crack or do anything so that they can investigate a third party.

The police are a government function even a small government libertarian supports. They are not there to protect us, they sure don't do that. But they are there to solve crimes. It is the reasonable responsibility of citizens to cooperate in data gathering when there is no risk or material cost to themselves to do so.

Sure, the left think we are subjugated to society and that is ridiculous. But so is ignoring that society exsists. If Apple were remotely a suspect, then sure, get a warrant and show probable cause against them. But here is no risk or material cost to Apple. They should help bring to justice anyone who helped murder all those people in San Bernardino.

I'm sure you can find a cave to live in if that's what you want

 

[Valerie]

If you were a stock holder in Apple, I bet you would think entirely differently.

i've made money off Apple stock over the years... doesn't change a thing about how i view this situation.

other than if i had been currently holding it, i would have sold it that day...