Flight 93 Never Crashed In The Empty Field Outside Shanksville

[DiveCon]

Fizz I appreciate your details and your responses and trust me, I don't mind debating with you at all.
With that being said, how can it be that ID cards were found? Isn't it plausible that at least some type of human remains could be seen or are these photos too classified. I question in what location was this stuff discovered? How come we don't see any other items other than plane pieces. If it was such an atrocious impact, how did paper documents survive? I've heard some people say that the plane may of broken apart but based on that, wouldn't there be larger pieces in another area if that were the case?

Liability, your post takes the debate to a second tier as far as I'm concerned. I believe this topic should be on the comprehension of the evidence and scenario of this crash site. I don't require a second tier justification in order to make a determination on the photos in front of me. To insulate lack of empathy is a foul play.

I would be very inclined to see if any Kamikaze planes were recovered at Pearl Harbor. Does anyone have any evidence of this? Obviously, any pictures would be a crap shoot at best but...do any of our museums contain artifacts of such.

I still have an extremely hard time digesting this. In any other plane crash throughout history, we have been able to see the after wreckage in an airplane hanger. Why don't we see this now?

Okay; if Flight 93 didn't crash, what caused the hole, the wreckage, the fire...?

where is the plane, the passengers etc

 

[Fizz]

I still have an extremely hard time digesting this. In any other plane crash throughout history, we have been able to see the after wreckage in an airplane hanger. Why don't we see this now?

there is a really simple explanation for why you dont see a reconstruction in a hangar in this case. the NTSB isnt the lead investigating agency in the case and the cause of the crash is already known. usually reconstructions are done to find out what happened to the plane. it wasnt needed in this case.

95% of the plane was recovered. all the passengers and crew were identified by DNA from body parts found at the scene. (not sure about the hijackers but i think they were all identified too). the black boxes were found inside terral's empty hole.

 

[Systain]

Honestly, I have not generated my own hypothesis regarding your 2 questions. I've heard many but am not quite sure I'm ready to commit into believing them. Furthermore, I don't want to be so absurd as to brainstorm what I believed happened based on assumptions alone. I have not heard nor read all the arguments from both sides. However, I just don't see a plane wreckage. I imagine a much larger impact, with a different footprint, with a good part of the site still on fire, smoldering.

Additionally, I appreciate the work of the Pilots for 911 Truth:
80://pilotsfor911truth.org/UAL93.html

*****************
Sept 23, 2006 - We have the pdf's for UA93 FDR via NTSB. I noticed the FDR shows UA93 at 40 degrees pitch down and -5 degrees Angle of Attack at impact (FDR shows -15 as level throughout flight, -20 at impact). If that was the case, it would seem UA93 would be making a long ditch along the flight path while impacting the ground and spreading wreckage at close to a 35 degree flight path. The pictures of UAL93 impact crater shows a vertical, straight down crater (~90 degrees vertical), not a 35 degree impact creating a long ditch. Remember, the ground here is reported to be very soft.
*****************

I would also question if it's possible to deliberately nosedive a jetliner at such angle. I know a plane can stall and nosedive but can it be directly driven in the fashion as claimed. I am not knowledgeable regarding aircraft in anyway but it just seems like the thrust from the engine would cause the nose to pickup and thus, cause the plane to become directed at a different, more obtuse angle. I will research this.

 

[candycorn]

Honestly, I have not generated my own hypothesis regarding your 2 questions. I've heard many but am not quite sure I'm ready to commit into believing them. Furthermore, I don't want to be so absurd as to brainstorm what I believed happened based on assumptions alone. I have not heard nor read all the arguments from both sides. However, I just don't see a plane wreckage. I imagine a much larger impact, with a different footprint, with a good part of the site still on fire, smoldering.

Oh, okay....in nearly 1,000,000,000,000% of all of the wrecks you're imagining the pilots at the controls were trying to survive. In the case of flight 93, survival was not a priority.

Would you expect to see the same wreck on the freeway for example if

*the driver aimed at a freeway support, gunned the engine, and crashed into it head first hoping to die

versus

*the driver unable to stop the car tried to miss the freeway support head on and graze it at an angle, pulled up on the emergency break, shifted into neutral or park or reverse to slow down the plane and took any other precaution to try to survive the wreck?

 

[Liability]

I believe I summarized the Troofer imbecility once before. A shortened version:

The plane that never took off didn't get hijacked and didn't crash into the empty hole with the jet plane parts found deeply buried within it and the body parts of the passengers who didn't get on the plane that didn't take off and who therefore didn't die and their mourning relatives aren't really in mourning.

Yes indeed. The Troofers are sooooo sensitive to the pain of the families of the victims of the 9/11 atrocities.

Or is that the 9/11 non-atrocities? I keep forgetting.

it may have been shot down or otherwise exploded

It "may have been" partially vaporized by a high energy particle-beam weapon blast emitted from the phaser banks of a Romulan Bird of Prey, too.

But there's no evidence of that, either.

There is evidence that it crashed almost nose first into that field in PA, though.

 

[candycorn]

I believe I summarized the Troofer imbecility once before. A shortened version:

The plane that never took off didn't get hijacked and didn't crash into the empty hole with the jet plane parts found deeply buried within it and the body parts of the passengers who didn't get on the plane that didn't take off and who therefore didn't die and their mourning relatives aren't really in mourning.

Yes indeed. The Troofers are sooooo sensitive to the pain of the families of the victims of the 9/11 atrocities.

Or is that the 9/11 non-atrocities? I keep forgetting.

it may have been shot down or otherwise exploded

It "may have been" partially vaporized by a high energy particle-beam weapon blast emitted from the phaser banks of a Romulan Bird of Prey, too.

But there's no evidence of that, either.

There is evidence that it crashed almost nose first into that field in PA, though.

Well when the Rommers use their cloaking device there isn't going to be any evidence silly.

 

[Liability]

Fizz I appreciate your details and your responses and trust me, I don't mind debating with you at all.
With that being said, how can it be that ID cards were found? Isn't it plausible that at least some type of human remains could be seen or are these photos too classified. I question in what location was this stuff discovered? How come we don't see any other items other than plane pieces. If it was such an atrocious impact, how did paper documents survive? I've heard some people say that the plane may of broken apart but based on that, wouldn't there be larger pieces in another area if that were the case?

Liability, your post takes the debate to a second tier as far as I'm concerned. I believe this topic should be on the comprehension of the evidence and scenario of this crash site. I don't require a second tier justification in order to make a determination on the photos in front of me. To insulate lack of empathy is a foul play.

I would be very inclined to see if any Kamikaze planes were recovered at Pearl Harbor. Does anyone have any evidence of this? Obviously, any pictures would be a crap shoot at best but...do any of our museums contain artifacts of such.

I still have an extremely hard time digesting this. In any other plane crash throughout history, we have been able to see the after wreckage in an airplane hanger. Why don't we see this now?

1st tier -- second tier. Whatever. I was certainly employing the rhetorical tool of sarcasm, if that's what you're trying to say.

And the reason it's valid is because it is a tool to expose seriously flawed thnking.

There are MANY photographs of passenger plane parts (readily identifiable parts of a crashed passenger jet plane -- some with markings making it crystal clear which plane it was) already published. Simple search engines can get anyone interested these images in the blink of an eye.

So, that being the case, it is absurd to suggest that the flight that took off with a crew and passengers which never arrived at its destination DIDN'T crash. The family members of the missing crew and passengers are not crazy for mourning their loss, for those crew members and passengers were killed by the fucking terrorists that day. And THAT IS what we are actually talking about here. Human remains ALSO recovered from the crash site were later subjected to DNA analysis, in fact, and there is NO DOUBT whatsoever that the ghoulish assortment of bits of human remains came from the very same human beings who took that flight and who died in that crash.

And in all of the evidence there is not a single solitary fragment of credible evidence that the plane was "shot down." And there is no evidence to support the irresponsible contention that it "may have been" somehow otherwise "exploded."

 

[candycorn]

Fizz I appreciate your details and your responses and trust me, I don't mind debating with you at all.
With that being said, how can it be that ID cards were found? Isn't it plausible that at least some type of human remains could be seen or are these photos too classified. I question in what location was this stuff discovered? How come we don't see any other items other than plane pieces. If it was such an atrocious impact, how did paper documents survive? I've heard some people say that the plane may of broken apart but based on that, wouldn't there be larger pieces in another area if that were the case?

Liability, your post takes the debate to a second tier as far as I'm concerned. I believe this topic should be on the comprehension of the evidence and scenario of this crash site. I don't require a second tier justification in order to make a determination on the photos in front of me. To insulate lack of empathy is a foul play.

I would be very inclined to see if any Kamikaze planes were recovered at Pearl Harbor. Does anyone have any evidence of this? Obviously, any pictures would be a crap shoot at best but...do any of our museums contain artifacts of such.

I still have an extremely hard time digesting this. In any other plane crash throughout history, we have been able to see the after wreckage in an airplane hanger. Why don't we see this now?

1st tier -- second tier. Whatever. I was certainly employing the rhetorical tool of sarcasm, if that's what you're trying to say.

And the reason it's valid is because it is a tool to expose seriously flawed thnking.

There are MANY photographs of passenger plane parts (readily identifiable parts of a crashed passenger jet plane -- some with markings making it crystal clear which plane it was) already published. Simple search engines can get anyone interested these images in the blink of an eye.

So, that being the case, it is absurd to suggest that the flight that took off with a crew and passengers which never arrived at its destination DID crash. The family members of the missing crew and passengers are not crazy for mourning their loss, for those crew members and passeners were killed by the fucking terrorists that day. And THAT IS what we are actually talking about here. Human remains ALSO recovered from the crash site were later subjected to DNA analysis, in fact, and there is NO DOUBT whatsoever that the ghoulish assortment of bits of human remains came from the very same human beings who took that flight and who died in that crash.

And in all of the evidence there is not a single solitary fragment of credible evidence that the plane was "shot down." And there is no evidence to support the irresponsible contention that it "may have been" somehow otherwise "exploded."

Good post and 100% correct.

 

[eots]

the spread of the debris field.. the lack of any major parts..bodies ..etc is evidence that supports flt 93 was shot down

 

[eots]

Col. George Nelson, MBA, U.S. Air Force (ret) – Former U.S. Air Force aircraft accident investigator and airplane parts authority. Graduate, U.S. Air Force War College. 34-year Air Force career.

Licensed commercial pilot. Licensed airframe and powerplant mechanic.
Essay: "In all my years of direct and indirect participation, I never witnessed nor even heard of an aircraft loss, where the wreckage was accessible, that prevented investigators from finding enough hard evidence to positively identify the make, model, and specific registration number of the aircraft -- and in most cases the precise cause of the accident. ...

The government alleges that four wide-body airliners crashed on the morning of September 11 2001, resulting in the deaths of more than 3,000 human beings, yet not one piece of hard aircraft evidence has been produced in an attempt to positively identify any of the four aircraft. On the contrary, it seems only that all potential evidence was deliberately kept hidden from public view. …

With all the evidence readily available at the Pentagon crash site, any unbiased rational investigator could only conclude that a Boeing 757 did not fly into the Pentagon as alleged. Similarly, with all the evidence available at the Pennsylvania crash site, it was most doubtful that a passenger airliner caused the obvious hole in the ground and certainly not the Boeing 757 as alleged. …

As painful and heartbreaking as was the loss of innocent lives and the lingering health problems of thousands more, a most troublesome and nightmarish probability remains that so many Americans appear to be involved in the most heinous conspiracy in our country's history." Physics911, by Scientific Panel Investigating Nine-Eleven, 9/11/2001



Lt. Col. Jeff Latas, U.S. Air Force (ret) – Former combat fighter pilot. Aerospace engineer. Currently Captain at a major airline. Combat experience includes Desert Storm and four tours of duty in Northern and Southern Watch. Aircraft flown: McDonnell Douglas F-15E Strike Eagle and General Dynamics F-111 Aardvark fighter/bomber. Former President, U.S. Air Force Accident Investigation Board. Also served as Pentagon Weapons Requirement Officer and as a member of the Pentagon's Quadrennial Defense Review. Awarded Distinguish Flying Cross for Heroism, four Air Medals, four Meritorious Service Medals, and nine Aerial Achievement Medals. 20-year Air Force career.
Audio interview with Rob Balsamo 6/25/07: Regarding the 9/11 Commission's account of the impact of Flight 77 at the Pentagon and discrepancies with the actual Flight Data Recorder information:

"After I did my own analysis of it, it's obvious that there's discrepancies between the two stories; between the 9/11 Commission and the flight data recorder information. And I think that's where we really need to focus a lot of our attention to get the help that we need in order to put pressure on government agencies to actually do a real investigation of 9/11. And not just from a security standpoint, but from even an aviation standpoint, like any accident investigation would actually help the aviators out by finding reasons for things happening. ...

The things that really got my attention were the amount of descent rate that you had to have at the end of the flight, of Flight 77, that would have made it practically impossible to hit the light poles. [Editor's note: Destruction of the light poles near the Pentagon by Flight 77 was stated in the 9/11 Commission Report.] Essentially it would have been too high at that point to the point of impact where the main body of the airplane was hitting between the first and second floor of the Pentagon. ...

You know, I'd ride my bike to the Pentagon. So, you know I'm a little bit familiar with that area. [Editor's note: Lt. Col. Latas served as a Weapons Requirement Officer at the Pentagon.] But, you know, that kind of descent rate it would have been impossible essentially for the results that we see physically from what the flight data recorder was recording. Like I say, that's an area that I think deserves explanation. ...

The ground track [the path of the airplane] is off from the 9/11 Commission. There are several things that can be brought up but it's been a while since I've seen the film and looked at the flight data recorder. And I can't think of all the discrepancies I saw, but there are several there. [The film he refers to is Pandora's Black Box, Chapter 2, Flight of American 77.] ...

And I think that we Americans need to demand further investigation just to clarify the discrepancies that you've [Pilots for 9/11 Truth] found. And I think that we need to be getting on the phone with our Congressmen and women and letting them know that we don't accept the excuses that we're hearing now, that we want true investigators to do a true investigation." Google Videos


Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report

 

[Liability]

the spread of the debris field.. the lack of any major parts..bodies ..etc is evidence that supports flt 93 was shot down

No. They aren't evidence of any such thing. And you can't back up your abusrd speculation, either.

A plane crashing like that will essentially explode on impact. Debris flying outward is hardly unexpected. It is also not unreasonable to believe that the craft was starting to break up prior to the crash.

A significant percentage of the mass of the bodies WAS recovered (somewhere just below 10%)(and the rest was consumed in the fire and crash), just in sickening bits and pieces, mostly from within the area in and around the crater made by the impact (but also including areas nearby -- because of the explosive force of impact).

Human remains recovered in Somerset - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review
Debunking the 9/11 Myths: Special Report - Popular Mechanics

 

[eots]

I value the opinion of these military experts over yours


Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report

 

[Liability]

I value the opinion of these military experts over yours


Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report

You "value" dogshit if it can be interpreted to support your absurd fucked-up preconceived ignorant scumbag Troofer paranoid delusions, ya filthy jerkoff.

 

[eots]

the spread of the debris field.. the lack of any major parts..bodies ..etc is evidence that supports flt 93 was shot down

No. They aren't evidence of any such thing. And you can't back up your abusrd speculation, either.

A plane crashing like that will essentially explode on impact. Debris flying outward is hardly unexpected. It is also not unreasonable to believe that the craft was starting to break up prior to the crash.

A significant percentage of the mass of the bodies WAS recovered (somewhere just below 10%)(and the rest was consumed in the fire and crash), just in sickening bits and pieces, mostly from within the area in and around the crater made by the impact (but also including areas nearby -- because of the explosive force of impact).Human remains recovered in Somerset - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review
Debunking the 9/11 Myths: Special Report - Popular Mechanics

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsQteN5JYMo]YouTube - NBC Flight 93 vast debris field[/ame]

 

[Fizz]

I value the opinion of these military experts over yours


Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report

why do you only value the opinions of patriots questioning the 9/11 commission report instead of valuing the opinions of ALL patriots?

 

[Liability]

the spread of the debris field.. the lack of any major parts..bodies ..etc is evidence that supports flt 93 was shot down

No. They aren't evidence of any such thing. And you can't back up your abusrd speculation, either.

A plane crashing like that will essentially explode on impact. Debris flying outward is hardly unexpected. It is also not unreasonable to believe that the craft was starting to break up prior to the crash.

A significant percentage of the mass of the bodies WAS recovered (somewhere just below 10%)(and the rest was consumed in the fire and crash), just in sickening bits and pieces, mostly from within the area in and around the crater made by the impact (but also including areas nearby -- because of the explosive force of impact).Human remains recovered in Somerset - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review
Debunking the 9/11 Myths: Special Report - Popular Mechanics

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsQteN5JYMo]YouTube - NBC Flight 93 vast debris field[/ame]

And?

We already know the debris field was spread out. That uncontested factoid does nothing to support your moronic scumbag Troofer baseless claim that it "may have been" shot down or that it "may have been" otherwise exploded.

 

[eots]

I value the opinion of these military experts over yours


Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report

why do you only value the opinions of patriots questioning the 9/11 commission report instead of valuing the opinions of ALL patriots?

why do you pretend that those that don't openly question support the official story.. can you provide statements from another Former President, U.S. Air Force Accident Investigation Board that states he has examined the crash evidence and supports the crash investigations of 9/11 to be accurate and correct ?

 

[Systain]

There's no way that you can claim they've positively identified the terrorists through DNA matches, that's utter nonsense. Furthermore, there has since been many speculations over the accuracy of those implicated. Even if they've obtained DNA from the bodies, they would need something to match it up with and not everyone is in a DNA database. I'm sure those related to said terrorists wouldn't be so forthcoming as to provide DNA samples.

The scattered debris stretched for miles. This is not flawed thinking...I do not take personal attacks lightly. Where are you getting your percentages from and where go you see evidence of these gruesome findings? Plus, show me the luggage in which those otherwise pristine ID/driver's license cards were found. How can it be so difficult to find large pieces of titanium intact but paper documents seemed to have made it through the vaporizing effects of the crash?

Also, cite some proof for me. You claim it's easy to see but I thought I was looking at the same pictures as you. I don't see much of anything...surely not 95% of a plane.

Are you going to comment on the crash angle and the reports from the 9/11 Truth Pilots or are you just going to continue to pick apart my questioning as it appears easier? If honored pilots are coming out about this, don't they at least have the right for people to listen. Are you so absurd as to say their thinking is flawed?

 

[Fizz]

I value the opinion of these military experts over yours


Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report

why do you only value the opinions of patriots questioning the 9/11 commission report instead of valuing the opinions of ALL patriots?

why do you pretend that those that don't openly question support the official story.. can you provide statements from another Former President, U.S. Air Force Accident Investigation Board that states he has examined the crash evidence and supports the crash investigations of 9/11 to be accurate and correct ?

and how many of the people on that website agree that 9/11 was an inside job and explosives were used to bring down the world trade center and all the other wacky shit you twoofers claim?

they want a new investigation. i have no problem with that. trying to show all these people as supporting shit like "there was no crash in PA or it was shot down" is fucked up. its not what they are saying at all.

 

[eots]

So you can not provide any such statements is your answer