Zone1 For Christians who believe in Darwinian evolution, question

[Meriweather]

I’d say the percentage is 0% but the percentage of people who pretend to believe it might be around 20%. There is no way any human is capable of believing such radical nonsense.

We had been discussing his thought that the great majority of people were taking the Bible literally. We were getting nowhere, and all I can figure is that he was using statistics of fundamentalists and applying them to all, while I was using statistics (that he then misquotes) of Catholics and/or all Christian sects.

He seems to have this theory that before the twentieth century, "ignorant" people took the Bible literally. From what I read, is that pre-20th Century before people started taking polls, the general consensus is that most were of the mind that the Bible gave its own clues as to when it was to be taken literally, and when not.

A great example of people not taking the Bible literally is the Jefferson Bible. It showed an example of what some were thinking in Jefferson's lifetime. When there was a push to publish it in the early 1900s, there were those who were outraged and wanted it suppressed, and those (including ministers) who wanted it printed.

While I doubt there is no one at all who takes the Bible literally, I have no doubt that some do and some have in the past. That the Jefferson Bible (Gospels accounts is more precise) was published despite protests suggests that even in early days the majority did not take every word literally.

 

[Meriweather]

Magic blood? Invisible sky daddy? Come on. Seriously? I think if every human being was honest the. We would find 0 people worldwide that believe that nonsense. The claims are absurd.

Grin. I have the feeling you were reading the Bible literally which is why you gave it up. Biblical authors were painting a picture representing something people of all ages and all times could understand. Dive through your "sky daddy" representation and the reality comes into view.

 

[Lisa558]

Once when I was around 12, lying in bed and pondering the universe, I asked G-d to give me a simple sign if He existed - and I actually specified what the sign should be. It happened within 5 seconds.

I believe.

 

[Donald H]

Strange that an athesit who does not believe in God......

Don't you mean an an atheist who does believe in the god/

would attempt to prove that what He does not believe does not exist........if BELIEF is all that is required to establish TRUTH. It takes faith and evidence to establish truth, faith alone is dead.

You might place your face in the fairy tale attempts to explain the origins of this physical reality but I do not. I refuse to accept such theories that state the UNIVERSE CREATED ITSELF FROM NOTHING.......it was caused by gravity (when gravity is something rather than nothing, as gravity is subject to quantification/measurement).

It started with gravity comes across to me as some pretty deep thinking!

Its difficult to accept but one of the most intellgent secular minds in man's histroy made such an "idiotic" conculsion. Stephen Hawking. He hated God so much........he simply could not accept the reality that He could not prove that God does not exist through logic or reason.

That's not even worth a reply.

As Christians we are required to "TEST ALL THINGS........" (1 Thess. 5:21) Christian is not blind, Christian faith is constructed upon the Word of God. "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." -- Romans 10:17 The Holy Scriptures have never been proven to be errant from the Truth by either application of History Actual or via Application of Science (not theoritical science or cosmoslogy....but through application of the scientific method, as directed by the Laws of physics._

Scriptures have been changed with the times, as science has learned more. Novel interpretations of the bibles have been invented. My opinion of course.

 

[Donald H]

You keep repeating the same ad hominem, subjective opinions ad nauseam. Simply because there has been a falling away from the truth by the world's societies does not prove that God has ever changed. I do not base my faith upon what society accepts or rejects, but upon the actual content of the Holy Scriptures in Sola Scriptrua revealtion from God.

I haven't suggested that the god has changed.

If God declared that He created everything within the time frame He has revealed...........God created as revealed. Evolution is an impossiblity of the laws of physics and the laws of logic and reason. Eample: Which came first the chicken or the egg? The chicken logically must exist before REPRODUCTON can take place.

It's not that simple. You need to see a scientific explanation for the chicken or the egg question. I think that could result in a productive discussion.

As Pasteur demonstrated all biological life can only reproduce through pre-existing life within the same species. The Holy Scriptures agree with Pasteur's evidence produced using the "scientific method" of experimentation, that must include, Observation, Reproduction and Consistency with each application.

Nothing Pasteur has said discounts Darwinian evolution.

What do the scriptures declare about BIOLOGICAL LIFE? Everything must reproduce within species, each within LIKE KIND. (Genesis 1:11-12, 21, 24-25)

The answer is a qualified yes.

God has made it clear, the gate is narrow that leads to eternal salvation through the faith established by the word of God, "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide that and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." -- Matthew 22:13-14

I've tried to answer your comments in a few words, on account of doing justice to what you've said in some cases, would require volumes. Anything you would like to pursue further with me has a 'long' answer too.

God is unchanging..........God deals in truth, He has never lied. Socieities may evolve but the truth revealed by inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God has never changed, the Holy Scriptures have remained unbroken for over 3500 years. God has remained consistent........man has not.

Again......if something changes or evovles it was never a FACT, never a Truth, or never a Law.

 

[Canon Shooter]

Does that mean that you believe that God had absolutely no hand in the propagation of millions of species of plant, fungus, and animal life on Earth?

Did God just watch it all unfold for billions of years, and then when humans evolved, decide that they are so sinful that he must take human form to suffer and die for those sins?

 

[Clyde 154]

I haven't suggested that the god has changed.

It's not that simple. You need to see a scientific explanation for the chicken or the egg question. I think that could result in a productive discussion.

Nothing Pasteur has said discounts Darwinian evolution.

The answer is a qualified yes.

I've tried to answer your comments in a few words, on account of doing justice to what you've said in some cases, would require volumes. Anything you would like to pursue further with me has a 'long' answer too.

Short and simple. You are not a Christian if you accepet the ideologies of man over the revelations of God found in the N.T. canon. Its an "oximoronic" statement. You can't support the "theory" of evolution.....i.e., Darwinism and be a Christian based upon the Conditions established by Christ Jesus within the N.T. covenant.

"Why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord', and not do what I tell you?" -- Luke 6:46

God, the God of creation speaks today through Christ Jesus, "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers (ancestors) by the prophets, but in these last days He (God) has spoken to us by His Son (Jesus)..........." -- Hebrews 1:1

Jesus denied evolution in the creation narrative found in Genesis........Jesus and those He directly instructed (the Apostles) declared that God created man and woman in the beginning of creation, not billions or trillions of years after creation, as previsouly documented by Book, Chapter and Verse.

 

[Donald H]

Short and simple. You are not a Christian if you accepet the ideologies of man over the revelations of God found in the N.T. canon.

I don't debate that point, but I don't agree with the way you frame your comment. I don't see my position as having to do with ideologies.

Its an "oximoron" statement. You can't support the "theory" of evolution.....i.e., Darwinism and be a Christian by the Conditions established by Christ Jesus.

I agree, be he Christ, Jesus or Jesus Christ.

Your argument has to be with Meriweather and some other Christians who believe in Darwinian evolution and creation together. Is that problematic in your opinion? If so then you should ask Meriweather for an explanation on how his belief system is justified.

 

[Seymour Flops]

We had been discussing his thought that the great majority of people were taking the Bible literally. We were getting nowhere, and all I can figure is that he was using statistics of fundamentalists and applying them to all, while I was using statistics (that he then misquotes) of Catholics and/or all Christian sects.

He seems to have this theory that before the twentieth century, "ignorant" people took the Bible literally. From what I read, is that pre-20th Century before people started taking polls, the general consensus is that most were of the mind that the Bible gave its own clues as to when it was to be taken literally, and when not.

A great example of people not taking the Bible literally is the Jefferson Bible. It showed an example of what some were thinking in Jefferson's lifetime. When there was a push to publish it in the early 1900s, there were those who were outraged and wanted it suppressed, and those (including ministers) who wanted it printed.

While I doubt there is no one at all who takes the Bible literally, I have no doubt that some do and some have in the past. That the Jefferson Bible (Gospels accounts is more precise) was published despite protests suggests that even in early days the majority did not take every word literally.

Wow, I had never heard of the Jefferson Bible.

Using his clippings, the aging third president created a New Testament of his own—one that most Christians would hardly recognize. This Bible was focused only on Jesus, but none of his mystical works. It didn’t include major scenes like the resurrection or ascension to heaven, or miracles like turning water into wine or walking on water. Instead, Jefferson’s Bible focused on Jesus as a man of morals, a teacher whose truths were expressed without the help of miracles or the supernatural powers of God.

Made for his private use and kept secret for decades, Jefferson’s 84-page Bible was the work of a man who spent much of his life grappling with, and doubting, religion.

I'll get a copy. Thanks for letting me know something knew.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Once when I was around 12, lying in bed and pondering the universe, I asked G-d to give me a simple sign if He existed - and I actually specified what the sign should be. It happened within 5 seconds.

I believe.

I'll bite . . . what was the sign?

 

[Meriweather]

Made for his private use and kept secret for decades, Jefferson’s 84-page Bible was the work of a man who spent much of his life grappling with, and doubting, religion.

I'll get a copy. Thanks for letting me know something knew.

Perhaps knowing about doubts and struggles with religion comes with a Catholic school education? Doubts are a part of faith, and some (perhaps most?) of our great Saints had doubts and serious disagreements with each other and the people of their times. So did some of our great Christian leaders.

It is a guess, but I very much doubt Abraham Lincoln took everything in the Bible as literal.

 

[Ivan88]

The word God comes from the Babylonian idol of good luck.

 

[Meriweather]

The word God comes from the Babylonian idol of good luck.

The word either comes from God; or, the word comes from the Babylonian idol of good luck. Which is it?

 

[Ivan88]

You can look it up in Strong's Aramaic dictionary as word #1408 Fortune, Babylonian diety, troop 8- 9. It comes from word #1464 to attack, invade, overcome. It is also the name of one of the sons of Yacob/israel.

If one wishes to go with the Germanic, Gott, it also comes from that Babylonian idol for good luck. Some folks want to use the Gad pronunciation. God or Gad it is the same thing, only a little twist of pronunciation seeming to make a difference., because there was no vowel written between the G and the D.

 

[Clyde 154]

I don't debate that point, but I don't agree with the way you frame your comment. I don't see my position as having to do with ideologies.

I agree, be he Christ, Jesus or Jesus Christ.

Your argument has to be with Meriweather and some other Christians who believe in Darwinian evolution and creation together. Is that problematic in your opinion? If so then you should ask Meriweather for an explanation on how his belief system is justified.

You cannot believe in evolution and creation as being compatible with the one church documented in the N.T. (Eph. 4:5)

The creaton account that Jesus Christ accepted as truth does not involve evolution that requires billions of years.......Jesus clearly stated that God created man and woman.........IN THE BEGINNING OF CREATION (Matt. 19:4-6) not billions of years removed, the Apostle states that Adam was "formed" first, then Eve was formed from a rib from Adam. (1 Tim. 2:13) Thus, both cannot be true...its either or. Either you accept the word of Christ or you accept the ideologies (a promoted idea) of man.

Why? The church doctrine that is located in the N.T. scriptures has a mandate to worship in Spirit and Truth. (John 4:24)

Who then are we to believe? God (incarnate) or man?

 

[zaangalewa]

Does that mean that you believe that God had absolutely no hand in the propagation of millions of species of plant, fungus, and animal life on Earth?

I believe god created everything - also evolution.

Did God just watch it all unfold for billions of years, and then when humans evolved, decide that they are so sinful that he must take human form to suffer and die for those sins?

I do not know what the creator god is doing or not doing whenver, wherever he is this doing or not doing what he is doing or not doing and how long he rests when he rests in his timelessness. But I am sure he made everything in the best of all possible ways - what all mankind is absolutelly not able to say about us ourselves. And I am furthermore convinced if something would exist "without god" it would not exist at all - it never had existed, is now not existing and never will exist. Everything depends on god.

In memoriam Benedict XVI

 

[buttercup]

You cannot believe in evolution and creation as being compatible with the one church documented in the N.T. (Eph. 4:5)

The creaton account that Jesus Christ accepted as truth does not involve evolution that requires billions of years.......Jesus clearly stated that God created man and woman.........IN THE BEGINNING OF CREATION (Matt. 19:4-6) not billions of years removed, the Apostle states that Adam was "formed" first, then Eve was formed from a rib from Adam. (1 Tim. 2:13) Thus, both cannot be true...its either or. Either you accept the word of Christ or you accept the ideologies (a promoted idea) of man.

Why? The church doctrine that is located in the N.T. scriptures has a mandate to worship in Spirit and Truth. (John 4:24)

Who then are we to believe? God (incarnate) or man?

He wasn't arguing that. He said that you should be arguing with Merriweather or others here who believe in both God and evolution. They are the ones you should be directing your words to.

PS: he doesn't claim to be a Christian, he's an atheist.

 

[zaangalewa]

By the way: The German sentence "Du weißt den Weg für mich" means "You know the way for me". And the same spoken German words "Du weist den Weg für mich" mean also "You show me the way". So this sentence in this song - inspired from Dietrich Bonhoefer - means the same time "You know the way for me" and "You show me the way".

 

[ding]

Does that mean that you believe that God had absolutely no hand in the propagation of millions of species of plant, fungus, and animal life on Earth?

Did God just watch it all unfold for billions of years, and then when humans evolved, decide that they are so sinful that he must take human form to suffer and die for those sins?

Creation is the act by which God gives reality to the universe. God does not supply energy, as a match does to an explosive, he supplies reality. God supplies this reality equally to every part of the universe — all events at all times and places.

 

[ding]

I’d say the percentage is 0% but the percentage of people who pretend to believe it might be around 20%. There is no way any human is capable of believing such radical nonsense.

Magic blood? Invisible sky daddy? Come on. Seriously? I think if every human being was honest the. We would find 0 people worldwide that believe that nonsense. The claims are absurd.

I wouldn't believe in God either if I based my belief of God's existence on your intellectually devoid interpretation of the Bible. Good thing we have what God created to study the indirect evidence of God. Something you have apparently never done.