For Those Who Do Believe In God...

[Newby]

Us non believers only have a problem with a religion when the perveyors of said religion try and indoctrine the rest of us, and when they can't, try and get statutes passed that support their POV based on their religion. Keep religion out of politics (and don't be so rude as to door knock my house, and when I tell you I am not interested still pester me), and we'll be fine. Note the vast majority of atheists aren't beating down your door trying to enforce laws that encroach on your personal beliefs. It's always the religious folk that do.

Ill make a deal with you. When you keep your opinions out of politics, I'll keep mine out of politics. Until then, Im going to speak my point of view regardless whether you like it or not.

When you stop forcing your views on us and our children, then you can whine and complain about things. Until then, stop whining and let the political process work.

Do you not understand the difference between religious views which purport to be fact and cannot be proven vs. just plain political opinion?

Saying we should force everyone to do something because God wants it that way has always been a piss poor reason.

I am so tired of this argument. All libs fall back on this argument and can never, ever back it up. I even asked the thread's author to state what laws are focing anyone's beliefs down his throat, and he didn't have anything valid other than holidays and gay marriage. Your 'plain political opinion' is based on your life experiences and world views, mine are based on the same things. What difference does it make on how those world views were formed as to whether or not they are valid political opinions? It doesn't make your opinion any more valid than anyone else's opinion. This argument that conservative political thought is null and void because people who have religious beliefs also have conservative political opinion is utter crap. Why don't YOU leave my religion out of it? It's always the libs who are dragging religion into the political discussion b/c it's the only way you get around the conservative political argument. You can have conservative political point of views that have nothing to do with religion whatsoever. But, I understand why you seem to have the need to keep carrying the religious 'crutch' around with you to use to play 'victim'. If you didn't, you'd have to actually look at it from a different point of view which wouldn't be nearly as easy to refute if you didn't have religion to cloud the discussion.

 

[AllieBaba]

I love bait threads.

God knows if you really have faith and are saved. If you don't, you go to hell. Pretty simple.

And what makes my religion right is that it is right, it is of God, by God and for God. God indwells in those with faith, and in the Holy Word. But you can't see those things unless you ask to see them.

Just because you don't believe it and mock it doesn't mean it isn't true, and in the end, every person in hell will believe. But of course, it will be too late.

And the bible tells us not to waste pearls before swine. People who bait, torment and tease Christians are not worth the effort of trying to convert. You aren't interested in being converted. You simply want to humiliate and torture those who believe, and perhaps make them lose faith.

These, your answers, don't shed any light on the subjects I acked about, Allie. Maybe they make sense for you, but for me they don't.

God would know if I have faith, real faith. Well, how does one have real faith if, for someone like me, to have that faith requires a willful suspension of disbelief. I can want to say "Lord Jesus, I accept you into my heart as my one and true savior." to avoid Hell and ensure that I go to Heaven, but I wouldn't really believe. I can even try it (which I have, numerous times) and it just feels hollow and insincere and it is. I can't just choose to believe it. Its not possible considering how irrational and not reasonable religion is to someone who thinks rationally i.e. Noah's Ark, Moses and the Red Sea, and other supernatural events depicted in religious writings. So, inessence, I can't have faith in religious beliefs. And how would I know which one to put my faith if I could?

How do you know your religion is the right one. Just answering "Cause it is." doesn't answer the question. How do you know it is?

Why do you believe in Christianity? What made you choose that religion?

What is faith to you?

I didn't attack your faith in this thread, nor anyone else's. The questions are pointed, yes, but hardly are they attacks.

And if you don't want to defend your answers, then don't answer the questions. Go to some other thread and call non-believers swine there, Ms. Self-Righteous.

I have defended my answers, and provided answers to the questions. As I said before, you're not listening.

And faith involves, well, faith. Yes, you have to suspend belief and put your FAITH in something outside of yourself.

The bible tells us that you don't have to believe whole heartedly, and everyone's faith is tested. It isn't easy. The bible also tells us that if we ASK God to reveal himself to him, if we ASK him to enter our hearts, the Holy Spirit will enter us and help us with understanding. But you have to ask. You don't just wake up one day and say "Glory Hallelujah, I GET it!" It's a process, that begins with asking.

I'm a Christian because as a child I asked Jesus into my heart. I'm not a perfect Christian, and it's been a long and difficult road, as nobody in my immediate family was saved, and I had no guidance other than the Bible itself for many, many years. But in my long (and I'm a cynic, jaded to the core) life I've yet to see anything to make me disbelieve or doubt the veracity of the Bible. I've experienced personal miracles, and I've never had a prayer go unanswered. Including selfish ones.

 

[Newby]

Do you not understand the difference between religious views which purport to be fact and cannot be proven vs. just plain political opinion?

Saying we should force everyone to do something because God wants it that way has always been a piss poor reason.

Oh and political opinion is provable?

If you needed a good reason for a political position, liberalism wouldnt exist.

Contrary to your opinion, religious people have every right to have their say in politics. This society belongs to religious people as well as non-religious people. You have no problem forcing your views on others, but the second someone speaks out against you, you pretend you're a victim.

This a Republic. Your voice isnt the only one that's going to be heard. And if you think you can force your view points on people, their will be bloodshed. And it will have nothing to do wih religion. it will have everything to do with the fact that your a totalitarian.

Exactly. They dismiss the conservative political point of view by continuing to insist that it is grounded in religious dogma, they use that as the excuse. Conservative thought has nothing to do with religion at all. It has to do with wanting a non-intrusive federal government that doesn't provide cradle to grave support for every person in the country. Keeping the power in the hands of the people and not the government. They always try to turn it into a religious discussion, they should learn to keep religion out of it. I think they are more obsessed with it than anyone else.

 

[Newby]

Do you not understand the difference between religious views which purport to be fact and cannot be proven vs. just plain political opinion?

Saying we should force everyone to do something because God wants it that way has always been a piss poor reason.

Oh and political opinion is provable?

If you needed a good reason for a political position, liberalism wouldnt exist.

Contrary to your opinion, religious people have every right to have their say in politics. This society belongs to religious people as well as non-religious people. You have no problem forcing your views on others, but the second someone speaks out against you, you pretend you're a victim.

This a Republic. Your voice isnt the only one that's going to be heard. And if you think you can force your view points on people, their will be bloodshed. And it will have nothing to do wih religion. it will have everything to do with the fact that your a totalitarian.

Dude, neither is provable, both are however, measurable. Political opinion, in and of itself is as varied as religious opinion. That is why we have elections... to measure it.

In November, 52.9% of Americans said they would prefer to see Obama at the helm of the nation for the next 4 years and the other 47.1% are simply stuck with the decision, if we are to be a nation of laws and not mobs. Forced, if you will, to live in a 'liberal' nation until at least the next election.

What a sad country we would would be if 52% of of the population could force the rest of us to live a Catholic lifestyle...

That is the difference between religious opinion and political opinion.

That is why some pretty smart dudes proposed the idea that the state should never establish or adopt, as official policy, any lifestyle choice in particular, but be tolerant of all lifestyle choices. At least in theory...

-Joe

How is liberalism any less of a religion than Catholicism? There are no facts in liberalism anymore than you think that there are facts in Catholicism. But since you deem that there aren't any religious beliefs associated with liberalism then it's a huge green light to force your views on the other 48%? Why don't we follow the constitution, which certainly never mentioned redistribution of wealth and controlling the population via environmentalist causes. I don't see your dogma as being any different than religious dogma.

 

[AllieBaba]

I can't believe that this thread is still going. Sheila, I have had the exact same experience and I've attended Catholic churches, Lutheran churches, and non denominational christian churches, and I've never once heard a sermon about gays or homosexuals, ever. I keep telling people such as CMM that they are regurgitating a lie and a false stereo type because of what they have been told on liberal blogs or thru liberal propaganda in the media. There may be a small percentage of radical christian churches that do so, but the mainstream christian churches in this country do not even discuss the topic. As I pointed out earlier, my sister's church, which happens to be a Lutheran church (in a small town) has as members two lesbian couples who have adopted children. But, they'll just keep trying to perpetuate the stereo type whether they believe it to be true or not because it fits in with their neat little world view and gives them a reason to belittle what they apparently aren't able to understand.

You know what? I'm not lying! I really experienced this woman preaching against homosexuality! And guess what? It wasn't liberal media who made me think Christians hate gays, it was Christians! Ever been to a gay rights protest? The Christians who arrive to protest the protesters invariably quote Leviticus. Ever been to a protest to quell any campaign for gay rights? The Christian protesters carry signs telling us the homosexuality is a sin. How is that liberal media? And what about Focus on the Family and its campaigns against homosexuality? And the Mormon church funding the Prop. 8 campaign? How about Dr. Dobbs messages that God is punishing the US for allowing homosexuals to be homosexuals here? The liberal media doesn't tell me that Christians hate gays, Christians tell me that.

So tell me... Are you a Christians? Should the government recognize same-sex marriages or should same-sex marriage be different than state sanctioned marriage between opposite genders? Why should only a man and a woman be married? Because your Bible says so, that's why.

Sheesh.

You have never been told by a Christian that we hate gays. You're a liar.

 

[AllieBaba]

Just came from volunteering at a church to give out lunches to the homeless. They were talking about a well attended funeral last weekend at the church for a young girl who died in a head on collision, she was going the wrong way on the freeway having taken the off ramp to get on instead of the on ramp.

Most of these people attending this funeral were young. Most of them had never been to a church or a funeral before. They were loud, they were rude, a funeral that should have taken and hour to an hour and a 1/2 (not including the reception afterward) took 2 and 1/2 hours.

I'm so sorry that you think a prayer to Jesus in some way "harms" you child, but I think not teaching him how to act appropriately in church or at a funeral harms him AND society.

Oh, and BTW, you will notice that everyone in favor of abortion has ALREADY BEEN BORN!!!! Kind of selfish, don't ya think?

I'm sorry, but this story just points to a lot of problems society has, and many due to only one specific religion being so forceful.

Problem 1: Death should never be a time of sadness, no more than someone moving to another country pre-internet times. This goes into so many topics, so to simplify this, no matter what your belief they are better off now.

Problem 2: Manners regarding "other religions" was never something that the forceful religious zealots emulate ... EVER. I wear a pentacle and an ankh ... I get some harassment just for those from these zealots (always christian, go figure) and gods forbid I go in to volunteer wearing them and telling people the teachings on Imhotep and Cleopatra (a heraldess of unity) no matter where the poor are getting help from. To demand others extend those common courtesies we have rarely received is hypocritical at best. But that's not even the biggest problem with it, it will take decades without any religious influences from the forceful zealots of any ideology for our society to once again care about each other.

Problem 3: A church to most non-organized religions is NOT a building, it's a glen or field, or some other place actually created by the gods, not some human made construct lacking a soul and life (using dead materials or stone negates the life of the building automatically). Yet many people have no respect for the churches we view as sacred (to me it's anyplace where death is prevalent), how can a human made building EVER expect to be thought of as "holy"?

It's holy because it is a place built for the sole purpose of celebrating God. That's what makes it holy. It has no other purpose than to provide shelter to those who are seeking and praising God.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

You have never been told by a Christian that we hate gays. You're a liar.

Okay...

Whatever you say Allie...

 

[Newby]

Psalm 5:5 The arrogant cannot stand in your presence;
you hate all who do wrong. 6 You destroy those who tell lies;
bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors.

I still say that this concept, combined with our history, while it may not be proof that the God of The Bible is a fantasy of man, it is evidence that there are inconsistencies in His Word versus His actions.

-Joe

Not sure where you got that, but I did not post it. I've never posted any quotes from the Bible on here.

 

[AllieBaba]

You have never been told by a Christian that we hate gays. You're a liar.

Okay...

Whatever you say Allie...

Don't mention it.

 

[Newby]

How many normal church services have you attended in your life? Everything you've talked about as far as experiencing interactions with Christians is in relation to gay protests and gay activities. One would think that you could deduce from that fact that you have only been exposed to those christians radical enough to even show up to any kind of a gay activity. Most would not even bother or care or even think that would be in any way the right thing to do based on their religious beliefs. I have never known in my entire life anyone that has attended any kind of a gay activity to protest it, and I would guess that would be the experience that 90 to 95 percent of all the other chritians in this country have had as well. So, to keep perpetuating your stereo type based on only these experiences is a lie. You have not experienced mainstream christian life, yet you expound on it like you're some kind of an expert. Those who scream the loudest, get the most attention, and the liberal media just loves to show those such as Dobbs as being the representative of the average american christian. The liberal media wants that to be the face of american christianity evne though it is not, which is why that is all they ever show. Keep buying into it tho, it's apparent that's all you want to believe.

I've already stated several times in this thread that I have no problem with legal civil unions between gay couples as long as churches are not forced by government to perform any religious ceremony should they choose not too.

I've been to many church services. Until I was 13 I went to church every Sunday. After the age of 13 I went to church sporadically. I've been to Nazarene services, Catholic church for a year, Methodist services, non-denominational services, Kiwanis, Lutheran, Baptist, and Unitarian. Not all of the services were full of fear, fire, and brimstone, and only the Methodist church ever preached anything about homosexuality. But, from my experience, most Christians believe what I learned in these Churches: The Bible is true and if you don't believe that Christ is your savior, you go to Hell. Sorry if you think that is a stereotype because I can only express my experiences. I haven't lived the American Christian mainstream lifestyle because I'm not a Christian. So, if I've only been exposed to the fundamentalists, the extremists, and the most evangelical. Well, sorry, but that is how your religion is being represented and not just in the media. But tell me, do most Christians accept homosexuality or do most think its a sin? I never wrote anything as though I was an expert, though you seem to be an expert on liberals and love to spout about your liberal stereotypes.

If churches aren't forced to perform ceremonies that go against their church doctrine then why can't we just call it marriage? Why do Christians get to trademark that word? If Christians don't have a problem with gay marriage, then why do they vote against it?

You said that your entire family was agnostic, that your parents never attended church, so how was it that they allowed you to attend up until the age of 13?

It's being represented that way by the likes of you that haven't a clue as to what you're talking about.

Why isn't a civil legal union acceptable? Why can't there be a compromise if people feel that the word marriage is sacred? They would be getting what they state it is all about, would they not? Equal protection under the law? Why isn't that good enough?

 

[AllieBaba]

Er...I was allowed to attend church as a child, and my parents never did. They would never have dreamed of not "allowing" me to.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

You said that your entire family was agnostic, that your parents never attended church, so how was it that they allowed you to attend up until the age of 13?

It's being represented that way by the likes of you that haven't a clue as to what you're talking about.

Why isn't a civil legal union acceptable? Why can't there be a compromise if people feel that the word marriage is sacred? They would be getting what they state it is all about, would they not? Equal protection under the law? Why isn't that good enough?

My parents divorced when I was 3. My mother wanted to instill a religious sense in her children. My father is an atheist. My mother's family are Nazarenes, my step-father is Catholic. My father's family is atheist. I was raised by my mother.

I don't represent Christians. Christians do. Try another illogical connection.

Religious people feel the word marriage is sacred. Since we live in a nation founded on the separation of church and state, because the word marriage is sacred to some doesn't mean the government should hold that word sacred. Laws shouldn't be based on religious doctrine.

I agree that we should all get government sanctioned civil unions and religious ceremonies can be called marriages, but why do Christians get to have a word be what they want it to be? If Christians don't care about homosexuality, as you say, then why do they vote against same-sex marriages? Equal protection under the law would mean all consenting adults could marry one another despite gender. Its religion that imposes the opposite gender standard on marriage.

 

[LOki]

Your certainty, in your belief, that your God is irrefutably real, is entiely in your own head--it's all about you. Rather arrogant to demand that that which you imagine to be real is real, because you believe it real. There is really no better example of arrogance than the ". . . because I say it is so" that is ultimately the only validation faith requires.

Except, of course, for the existence of your God.

You keep coming back to this "demand" word and your definition of what is a demand. Let's look at that.

–verb (used with object)
1. to ask for with proper authority; claim as a right: He demanded payment of the debt.
2. to ask for peremptorily or urgently: He demanded sanctuary. She demanded that we let her in.
3. to call for or require as just, proper, or necessary: This task demands patience. Justice demands objectivity.
4. Law.
a. to lay formal legal claim to.
b. to summon, as to court.

To be clear, I'm not asking for or calling for anything. You seem to be saying that if one person believes something it also means that they are asking or calling for others to believe it as well, as in your comment 'Rather arrogant to demand that that which you imagine to be real is real, because you believe it real", something I have never said, or even thought.

I simply set out what I believe, and others can either agree or disagree as they see fit. If you view this as a demand, then clearly your determination to validate your own argument is getting in the way of a reasonable discussion.

Well stated. His arrogance is getting in the way is how I would have stated it.

So proud of your certainties whose validity is based solely on your belief they are valid. Arrogant dumbfucks, both of you.

 

[Newby]

Coming from a pompous windbag such as yourself, I'll take that as a compliment.

 

[Newby]

Er...I was allowed to attend church as a child, and my parents never did. They would never have dreamed of not "allowing" me to.

My remarks were made as a direct response to what Colorado man had said, which is who I had quoted whenever I responded. I was not talking to you.

 

[Newby]

You said that your entire family was agnostic, that your parents never attended church, so how was it that they allowed you to attend up until the age of 13?

It's being represented that way by the likes of you that haven't a clue as to what you're talking about.

Why isn't a civil legal union acceptable? Why can't there be a compromise if people feel that the word marriage is sacred? They would be getting what they state it is all about, would they not? Equal protection under the law? Why isn't that good enough?

My parents divorced when I was 3. My mother wanted to instill a religious sense in her children. My father is an atheist. My mother's family are Nazarenes, my step-father is Catholic. My father's family is atheist. I was raised by my mother.

I don't represent Christians. Christians do. Try another illogical connection.

Religious people feel the word marriage is sacred. Since we live in a nation founded on the separation of church and state, because the word marriage is sacred to some doesn't mean the government should hold that word sacred. Laws shouldn't be based on religious doctrine.

I agree that we should all get government sanctioned civil unions and religious ceremonies can be called marriages, but why do Christians get to have a word be what they want it to be? If Christians don't care about homosexuality, as you say, then why do they vote against same-sex marriages? Equal protection under the law would mean all consenting adults could marry one another despite gender. Its religion that imposes the opposite gender standard on marriage.

My point, which you missed, is why that would even be an issue if what they were truly were after was legal protection whenever entering into a relationship as you say? It shouldn't matter what it's called. It seems like nothing is ever good enough, there's no willingness to compromise and take the feelings of others into consideration at all on their part either. They expect it, but they're not willing to give it. This has nothing to do with religion. Many in society see the word marriage as between a man and a woman, regardless of their religious background. The church would be kept totally separate from it and could perform or not perform religious ceremonies as they see fit. Homosexual couples would get their legal status and be protected under the law and the definition of marriage would remain the same.

If that is not acceptable, then there is more of an agenda to this than you are willing to admit.

 

[LOki]

Coming from a pompous windbag such as yourself, I'll take that as a compliment.

Nothing pompous on this end--pompous is the one who insists he's been complimented because he believes he's been complimented; it's all about him.

 

[Newby]

Coming from a pompous windbag such as yourself, I'll take that as a compliment.

Nothing pompous on this end--pompous is the one who insists he's been complimented because he believes he's been complimented; it's all about him.

Ah, I see... well, if this comment was about someone else and not I, then please forgive my arrogance.

So proud of your certainties whose validity is based solely on your belief they are valid. Arrogant dumbfucks, both of you. __________________

P.S. You're also sexist...

 

[tigerbob]

I can't believe that this thread is still going. Sheila, I have had the exact same experience and I've attended Catholic churches, Lutheran churches, and non denominational christian churches, and I've never once heard a sermon about gays or homosexuals, ever. I keep telling people such as CMM that they are regurgitating a lie and a false stereo type because of what they have been told on liberal blogs or thru liberal propaganda in the media. There may be a small percentage of radical christian churches that do so, but the mainstream christian churches in this country do not even discuss the topic. As I pointed out earlier, my sister's church, which happens to be a Lutheran church (in a small town) has as members two lesbian couples who have adopted children. But, they'll just keep trying to perpetuate the stereo type whether they believe it to be true or not because it fits in with their neat little world view and gives them a reason to belittle what they apparently aren't able to understand.

You know what? I'm not lying! I really experienced this woman preaching against homosexuality! And guess what? It wasn't liberal media who made me think Christians hate gays, it was Christians! Ever been to a gay rights protest? The Christians who arrive to protest the protesters invariably quote Leviticus. Ever been to a protest to quell any campaign for gay rights? The Christian protesters carry signs telling us the homosexuality is a sin. How is that liberal media? And what about Focus on the Family and its campaigns against homosexuality? And the Mormon church funding the Prop. 8 campaign? How about Dr. Dobbs messages that God is punishing the US for allowing homosexuals to be homosexuals here? The liberal media doesn't tell me that Christians hate gays, Christians tell me that.

So tell me... Are you a Christians? Should the government recognize same-sex marriages or should same-sex marriage be different than state sanctioned marriage between opposite genders? Why should only a man and a woman be married? Because your Bible says so, that's why.

Sheesh.

You have never been told by a Christian that we hate gays. You're a liar.

Whether that's true or not, many so called Christians use biblical references to justify their condemnation of homosexuality, whether that condemnation is based on sexual preferences, lifestyle choices or what are often referred to as family values.

 

[Newby]

You know what? I'm not lying! I really experienced this woman preaching against homosexuality! And guess what? It wasn't liberal media who made me think Christians hate gays, it was Christians! Ever been to a gay rights protest? The Christians who arrive to protest the protesters invariably quote Leviticus. Ever been to a protest to quell any campaign for gay rights? The Christian protesters carry signs telling us the homosexuality is a sin. How is that liberal media? And what about Focus on the Family and its campaigns against homosexuality? And the Mormon church funding the Prop. 8 campaign? How about Dr. Dobbs messages that God is punishing the US for allowing homosexuals to be homosexuals here? The liberal media doesn't tell me that Christians hate gays, Christians tell me that.

So tell me... Are you a Christians? Should the government recognize same-sex marriages or should same-sex marriage be different than state sanctioned marriage between opposite genders? Why should only a man and a woman be married? Because your Bible says so, that's why.

Sheesh.

You have never been told by a Christian that we hate gays. You're a liar.

Whether that's true or not, many so called Christians use biblical references to justify their condemnation of homosexuality, whether that condemnation is based on sexual preferences, lifestyle choices or what are often referred to as family values.

Define 'many' christians, and how you can make that statement when there is no way for you to have even had conversaion at all, let alone conversation regarding gays with 'many' christians as compared to the whole. Where do you get the 'many' from? A poll? A website? What is the actual number?