Frank Serpico: Incidents like Eric Garner's death drive wedge between police and society

[FA_Q2]

He was busted for selling loose cigarettes, not "untaxed" cigarettes.

(patiently)

OK, if that's the case....

If there is no threat to your well-being, then why is this law on the books in the first place?

The police's job is to enforce ALL laws. They don't get to pick and choose which ones they don't have to enforce. (This should be pointed out to Obama sometime.) Any time the legislature makes a law, they are OKing use of force to enforce it. That should only be done when use of force is proper for the "offense" in question.

Garner wasn't busted because there was any threat to anybody's well-being.

According to you, he was busted for selling one or two cigarettes at a time instead of twenty at a time.

Is that a proper law? One that puts citizens at risk, and authorizes police to use force (that might become excessive) simply so that Eric Garner will sell the number of cigarettes the big-govt liberals think he should sell?

Do I think the law is "proper"? No.

Does it have anything to do with "big government liberals"? No.

Loosey laws, and all other sin laws come from big-government social conservatives, not "liberals".

What's funny is they are in this thread defending it and trying to say at the same time it only exists because liberals want it. What liberal is here defending it?

Answer: Crickets

If I buy packages of hot dogs from the supermarket and set up my wagon on a corner and sell them singly to people, am I breaking the law?

Yes, you are.

You have to be licensed to sell anything as a business.

 

[Freewill]

Second question. Why not? He continued his illegal activity when given 33 previous chances to stop it without arrest. Do you think a 34th citation would have stopped him if the first 33 didn't?

How do you bring down a guy the size of Garner with only one cop? Also, he didn't die from a choke hold but a heartattack...

I'm asking you if choking a guy to death is a proportionate response to selling cigs?

the man died but he wasn't choked to death at least get that much right.

11 Facts about the Garner case: 11 Facts About the Eric Garner Case the Media Won t Tell You

1. There is no doubt that Garner was resisting an arrest for illegally selling untaxed cigarettes. Former New York City Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik put it succinctly: "You cannot resist arrest. If Eric Garner did not resist arrest, the outcome of this case would have been very different," he told Newsmax. "He wouldn't be dead today.

"Regardless of what the arrest was for, the officers don't have the ability to say, 'Well, this is a minor arrest, so we're just going to ignore you.'"

2. The video of the July 17 incident clearly shows Garner, an African-American, swatting away the arms of a white officer seeking to take him into custody, telling him: "Don't touch me!"

3. Garner, 43, had history of more than 30 arrests dating back to 1980, on charges including assault and grand larceny.

4. At the time of his death, Garner was out on bail after being charged with illegally selling cigarettes, driving without a license, marijuana possession and false impersonation.

5. The chokehold that Patrolman Daniel Pantaleo put on Garner was reported to have contributed to his death. But Garner, who was 6-foot-3 and weighed 350 pounds, suffered from a number of health problems, including heart disease, severe asthma, diabetes, obesity, and sleep apnea. Pantaleo's attorney and police union officials argued that Garner's poor health was the main cause of his death.

6. Garner did not die at the scene of the confrontation. He suffered cardiac arrest in the ambulance taking him to the hospital and was pronounced dead about an hour later.

7. Much has been made of the fact that the use of chokeholds by police is prohibited in New York City. But officers reportedly still use them. Between 2009 and mid-2014, the Civilian Complaint Review Board received 1,128 chokehold allegations.

Patrick Lynch, president of the New York City Patrolmen's Benevolent Association, said: "It was clear that the officer's intention was to do nothing more than take Mr. Garner into custody as instructed, and that he used the takedown technique that he learned in the academy when Mr. Garner refused."

8. The grand jury began hearing the case on Sept. 29 and did not reach a decision until Wednesday, so there is much testimony that was presented that has not been made public.

9. The 23-member grand jury included nine non-white jurors.

10. In order to find Officer Pantaleo criminally negligent, the grand jury would have had to determine that he knew there was a "substantial risk" that Garner would have died due to the takedown.

11. Less than a month after Garner's death, Ramsey Orta, who shot the much-viewed videotape of the encounter, was indicted on weapons charges. Police alleged that Orta had slipped a .25-caliber handgun into a teenage accomplice's waistband outside a New York hotel.

 

[Freewill]

From the article linked in the OP:

This is the use of excessive force for no apparent reason on a guy who is selling loosie cigarettes; what is the threat to your well-being?

A very good question.

And it begs an even more obvious question: If there is no threat to your well-being, then why is this law on the books in the first place?

Garner was busted, not for selling cigarettes (there is a store on the same block that sells them all the time, and nobody is upset about that), but for selling them without paying the taxes on them.

In other words, Garner wasn't busted because there was any threat to anybody's well-being. He was busted because government wasn't getting the money it wanted. And police used excessive force (if that was what it was) in furtherance of government getting more money, not to protect anyone.

Is that a proper law? One that puts citizens at risk, and authorizes police to use force (that might become excessive) simply so that government can get more money?

I know that you guys love trying to make this about taxes, but that's not the issue at all.

Selling "loosies" is illegal, and always has been.

It has always been illegal because of taxes, why else?

I would have said something similar in the beginning of the thread but thedoctorisin has THOROUGHLY debunked that concept.

It is likely just another control method - cigarettes are regulated far more than many other products because of the entire 'the state has to protect you from yourself' mantra. Like others have stated, likely something to do with saving the kids.

It is an asinine and stupid law. I don't think that a single person in here actually disagrees with that sentiment. I have to wonder why, then, the thread has devolved into a silly explanation about tax law when such law has nothing whatsoever to do with the point of the thread.

If you think that the government taxes things for any other reason then to collect money then you need your koolade taxed higher. (joke)

I can remember being young and my Father driving a Greyhound bus. It was relatively big business bring in un-taxed black market cigarettes and booze. If a person didn't have the tax stamp on their cigarette packs they were going to pay big time and at that time everyone smoked. The government does what it does, tax a vice or something else people want. As cigarette use dropped taxes went up to make up the difference.

Never the less, selling cigarettes as was Garner was doing is in violation of the law regardless of the reasoning.

You can do a lot of things in the world but mess in a government's income will get you in trouble faster then anything else you might do, ask Capone.

 

[ClosedCaption]

Second question. Why not? He continued his illegal activity when given 33 previous chances to stop it without arrest. Do you think a 34th citation would have stopped him if the first 33 didn't?

How do you bring down a guy the size of Garner with only one cop? Also, he didn't die from a choke hold but a heartattack...

I'm asking you if choking a guy to death is a proportionate response to selling cigs?

the man died but he wasn't choked to death at least get that much right.

11 Facts about the Garner case: 11 Facts About the Eric Garner Case the Media Won t Tell You

1. There is no doubt that Garner was resisting an arrest for illegally selling untaxed cigarettes. Former New York City Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik put it succinctly: "You cannot resist arrest. If Eric Garner did not resist arrest, the outcome of this case would have been very different," he told Newsmax. "He wouldn't be dead today.

"Regardless of what the arrest was for, the officers don't have the ability to say, 'Well, this is a minor arrest, so we're just going to ignore you.'"

Lets stop here. Since this is a fact the media "wont tell you" where did that quote come from? The media? Ok play pretend and lets say they arent the media

Tell me when and at what point did you hear anyone tell Garner he was under arrest? What time stamp was that?

 

[ClosedCaption]

Garner, 43, had history of more than 30 arrests dating back to 1980, on charges including assault and grand larceny.

He also had a history of nose picking but that has nothing to do with what they did to him. Unless you are using this as a justification for tackling someone for the awful crime of selling cigs

 

[ClosedCaption]

Much has been made of the fact that the use of chokeholds by police is prohibited in New York City. But officers reportedly still use them. Between 2009 and mid-2014, the Civilian Complaint Review Board received 1,128 chokehold allegations.

What the fuck? Its illegal but officers still use it so its ok! If an officer does it its fine.

Plenty of people still sell cigs! WTH?!? So its cool huh? This is the most backwards shit ever

 

[Freewill]

Second question. Why not? He continued his illegal activity when given 33 previous chances to stop it without arrest. Do you think a 34th citation would have stopped him if the first 33 didn't?

How do you bring down a guy the size of Garner with only one cop? Also, he didn't die from a choke hold but a heartattack...

I'm asking you if choking a guy to death is a proportionate response to selling cigs?

the man died but he wasn't choked to death at least get that much right.

11 Facts about the Garner case: 11 Facts About the Eric Garner Case the Media Won t Tell You

1. There is no doubt that Garner was resisting an arrest for illegally selling untaxed cigarettes. Former New York City Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik put it succinctly: "You cannot resist arrest. If Eric Garner did not resist arrest, the outcome of this case would have been very different," he told Newsmax. "He wouldn't be dead today.

"Regardless of what the arrest was for, the officers don't have the ability to say, 'Well, this is a minor arrest, so we're just going to ignore you.'"

Lets stop here. Since this is a fact the media "wont tell you" where did that quote come from? The media? Ok play pretend and lets say they arent the media

Tell me when and at what point did you hear anyone tell Garner he was under arrest? What time stamp was that?

Really, all am saying is he didn't die of the choke hold. I was trying to correct the poster who said he was strangled to death, which he was not.

Are you trying to get him off on a technicality? If so too late.

 

[Freewill]

Much has been made of the fact that the use of chokeholds by police is prohibited in New York City. But officers reportedly still use them. Between 2009 and mid-2014, the Civilian Complaint Review Board received 1,128 chokehold allegations.

What the fuck? Its illegal but officers still use it so its ok! If an officer does it its fine.

Plenty of people still sell cigs! WTH?!? So its cool huh? This is the most backwards shit ever

Choke hold didn't kill him.

 

[Freewill]

I saw my first black man wearing a hoodie with "I can't breathe" printed on the hoodie. Sorry folks but I stereotyped and evaluated my risk. Since he was with a white woman and was laughing an joking I evaluated the risk at very low. Prior to Garner I doubt I would have given him much of a thought.

 

[ClosedCaption]

Second question. Why not? He continued his illegal activity when given 33 previous chances to stop it without arrest. Do you think a 34th citation would have stopped him if the first 33 didn't?

I'm asking you if choking a guy to death is a proportionate response to selling cigs?

the man died but he wasn't choked to death at least get that much right.

11 Facts about the Garner case: 11 Facts About the Eric Garner Case the Media Won t Tell You

1. There is no doubt that Garner was resisting an arrest for illegally selling untaxed cigarettes. Former New York City Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik put it succinctly: "You cannot resist arrest. If Eric Garner did not resist arrest, the outcome of this case would have been very different," he told Newsmax. "He wouldn't be dead today.

"Regardless of what the arrest was for, the officers don't have the ability to say, 'Well, this is a minor arrest, so we're just going to ignore you.'"

Lets stop here. Since this is a fact the media "wont tell you" where did that quote come from? The media? Ok play pretend and lets say they arent the media

Tell me when and at what point did you hear anyone tell Garner he was under arrest? What time stamp was that?

Really, all am saying is he didn't die of the choke hold. I was trying to correct the poster who said he was strangled to death, which he was not.

Are you trying to get him off on a technicality? If so too late.

There is no getting off idiot. The truth is important and if he was never put in the choke hold then piled onto by all those officers he would be breathing.

 

[ClosedCaption]

I saw my first black man wearing a hoodie with "I can't breathe" printed on the hoodie. Sorry folks but I stereotyped and evaluated my risk. Since he was with a white woman and was laughing an joking I evaluated the risk at very low. Prior to Garner I doubt I would have given him much of a thought.

Why you thought he was going to peer pressure you to smoke a cigarette?

 

[depotoo]

Let's take it back one step at a time further.
If he hadn't resisted arrest he would still be breathing.
If he hadn't been selling loosies, which he was already out on bail for doing, he would still be breathing.

Second question. Why not? He continued his illegal activity when given 33 previous chances to stop it without arrest. Do you think a 34th citation would have stopped him if the first 33 didn't?

I'm asking you if choking a guy to death is a proportionate response to selling cigs?

the man died but he wasn't choked to death at least get that much right.

11 Facts about the Garner case: 11 Facts About the Eric Garner Case the Media Won t Tell You

1. There is no doubt that Garner was resisting an arrest for illegally selling untaxed cigarettes. Former New York City Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik put it succinctly: "You cannot resist arrest. If Eric Garner did not resist arrest, the outcome of this case would have been very different," he told Newsmax. "He wouldn't be dead today.

"Regardless of what the arrest was for, the officers don't have the ability to say, 'Well, this is a minor arrest, so we're just going to ignore you.'"

Lets stop here. Since this is a fact the media "wont tell you" where did that quote come from? The media? Ok play pretend and lets say they arent the media

Tell me when and at what point did you hear anyone tell Garner he was under arrest? What time stamp was that?

Really, all am saying is he didn't die of the choke hold. I was trying to correct the poster who said he was strangled to death, which he was not.

Are you trying to get him off on a technicality? If so too late.

There is no getting off idiot. The truth is important and if he was never put in the choke hold then piled onto by all those officers he would be breathing.

 

[Pogo]

That's because I understand how cigarette taxes and sales taxes work. It's not complicated.

The law against the sale of "loosies" is part of the sin laws surrounding cigarettes - probably to keep them out of the hands of kids.

Loosey laws existed back when cigarette taxes were almost nothing.

Nope. People give cigs to minors every day and they don't get arrested.

Give vs Sell.

Gift vs. Commerce

Actually, it's illegal to give minors cigarettes, too.

If asked for a cigarette by a stranger on the street, I am under no obligation to verify age. If I sell (commerce), I am.

That is flat out incorrect. You are certainly required to verify age and if the child lies to you and presents a fake ID, you are STILL liable. Same goes for alcohol and sex.

Where do you get the idea that you can claim ignorance of age in any situation with a substance that is controlled for minors?

He's a smoker. Gets a lot of denial exercise.

 

[ClosedCaption]

Let's take it back one step at a time further.
If he hadn't resisted arrest he would still be breathing.
If he hadn't been selling loosies, which he was already out on bail for doing, he would still be breathing.

Lets go back to biology class. Which part of the body requires you not to sell cigs to breathe?

None of it because selling anything has nothing to do with your ability to breathe

 

[ScienceRocks]

Second question. Why not? He continued his illegal activity when given 33 previous chances to stop it without arrest. Do you think a 34th citation would have stopped him if the first 33 didn't?

I'm asking you if choking a guy to death is a proportionate response to selling cigs?

the man died but he wasn't choked to death at least get that much right.

11 Facts about the Garner case: 11 Facts About the Eric Garner Case the Media Won t Tell You

1. There is no doubt that Garner was resisting an arrest for illegally selling untaxed cigarettes. Former New York City Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik put it succinctly: "You cannot resist arrest. If Eric Garner did not resist arrest, the outcome of this case would have been very different," he told Newsmax. "He wouldn't be dead today.

"Regardless of what the arrest was for, the officers don't have the ability to say, 'Well, this is a minor arrest, so we're just going to ignore you.'"

Lets stop here. Since this is a fact the media "wont tell you" where did that quote come from? The media? Ok play pretend and lets say they arent the media

Tell me when and at what point did you hear anyone tell Garner he was under arrest? What time stamp was that?

Really, all am saying is he didn't die of the choke hold. I was trying to correct the poster who said he was strangled to death, which he was not.

Are you trying to get him off on a technicality? If so too late.

There is no getting off idiot. The truth is important and if he was never put in the choke hold then piled onto by all those officers he would be breathing.

It may of caused the chain reaction that caused it, but it probably wouldn't of happened to a healthier man. The cops probably should of just allowed Garner to sell the cigs.

 

[depotoo]

Which has nothing to do with actual events of this tragedy like your previous post and my 2 did.

Let's take it back one step at a time further.
If he hadn't resisted arrest he would still be breathing.
If he hadn't been selling loosies, which he was already out on bail for doing, he would still be breathing.

Lets go back to biology class. Which part of the body requires you not to sell cigs to breathe?

None of it because selling anything has nothing to do with your ability to breathe

 

[Care4all]

Let's take it back one step at a time further.
If he hadn't resisted arrest he would still be breathing.
If he hadn't been selling loosies, which he was already out on bail for doing, he would still be breathing.

I'm asking you if choking a guy to death is a proportionate response to selling cigs?

the man died but he wasn't choked to death at least get that much right.

11 Facts about the Garner case: 11 Facts About the Eric Garner Case the Media Won t Tell You

1. There is no doubt that Garner was resisting an arrest for illegally selling untaxed cigarettes. Former New York City Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik put it succinctly: "You cannot resist arrest. If Eric Garner did not resist arrest, the outcome of this case would have been very different," he told Newsmax. "He wouldn't be dead today.

"Regardless of what the arrest was for, the officers don't have the ability to say, 'Well, this is a minor arrest, so we're just going to ignore you.'"

Lets stop here. Since this is a fact the media "wont tell you" where did that quote come from? The media? Ok play pretend and lets say they arent the media

Tell me when and at what point did you hear anyone tell Garner he was under arrest? What time stamp was that?

Really, all am saying is he didn't die of the choke hold. I was trying to correct the poster who said he was strangled to death, which he was not.

Are you trying to get him off on a technicality? If so too late.

There is no getting off idiot. The truth is important and if he was never put in the choke hold then piled onto by all those officers he would be breathing.

Did the cop tell him he was under arrest when he tried to grab him?

And I don't know this, are police required to tell the person standing in front of them that they are under arrest, before they grab him to put him under arrest.....????

and I am not talking about a perp with a gun or knife, but a regular ole citizen on the street that they are going to arrest, like me...would they have to tell me that they are arresting me?

I truly don't know how that works???

 

[depotoo]

“Get away [garbled] … for what? Every time you see me, you want to mess with me. I’m tired of it. It stops today. Why would you…? "

Since we don't have video from first approach we can't know for sure. I would assume, though, since he had previously been arrested for the same and was out on bail on the charge, and his comments and reaction , he was told. He knew what was happening, why else say for what and don't mess with me again.

Let's take it back one step at a time further.
If he hadn't resisted arrest he would still be breathing.
If he hadn't been selling loosies, which he was already out on bail for doing, he would still be breathing.

the man died but he wasn't choked to death at least get that much right.

11 Facts about the Garner case: 11 Facts About the Eric Garner Case the Media Won t Tell You

1. There is no doubt that Garner was resisting an arrest for illegally selling untaxed cigarettes. Former New York City Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik put it succinctly: "You cannot resist arrest. If Eric Garner did not resist arrest, the outcome of this case would have been very different," he told Newsmax. "He wouldn't be dead today.

"Regardless of what the arrest was for, the officers don't have the ability to say, 'Well, this is a minor arrest, so we're just going to ignore you.'"

Lets stop here. Since this is a fact the media "wont tell you" where did that quote come from? The media? Ok play pretend and lets say they arent the media

Tell me when and at what point did you hear anyone tell Garner he was under arrest? What time stamp was that?

Really, all am saying is he didn't die of the choke hold. I was trying to correct the poster who said he was strangled to death, which he was not.

Are you trying to get him off on a technicality? If so too late.

There is no getting off idiot. The truth is important and if he was never put in the choke hold then piled onto by all those officers he would be breathing.

Did the cop tell him he was under arrest when he tried to grab him?

And I don't know this, are police required to tell the person standing in front of them that they are under arrest, before they grab him to put him under arrest.....????

and I am not talking about a perp with a gun or knife, but a regular ole citizen on the street that they are going to arrest, like me...would they have to tell me that they are arresting me?

I truly don't know how that works???

 

[ClosedCaption]

Maybe because they were...I dont know, messing with him.

This arrest by telekenisis game has to end either we are going by the video or not.

 

[Care4all]

“Get away [garbled] … for what? Every time you see me, you want to mess with me. I’m tired of it. It stops today. Why would you…? "

Since we don't have video from first approach we can't know for sure. I would assume, though, since he had previously been arrested for the same and was out on bail on the charge, and his comments and reaction , he was told. He knew what was happening, why else say for what and don't mess with me again.

Let's take it back one step at a time further.
If he hadn't resisted arrest he would still be breathing.
If he hadn't been selling loosies, which he was already out on bail for doing, he would still be breathing.

Lets stop here. Since this is a fact the media "wont tell you" where did that quote come from? The media? Ok play pretend and lets say they arent the media

Tell me when and at what point did you hear anyone tell Garner he was under arrest? What time stamp was that?

Really, all am saying is he didn't die of the choke hold. I was trying to correct the poster who said he was strangled to death, which he was not.

Are you trying to get him off on a technicality? If so too late.

There is no getting off idiot. The truth is important and if he was never put in the choke hold then piled onto by all those officers he would be breathing.

Did the cop tell him he was under arrest when he tried to grab him?

And I don't know this, are police required to tell the person standing in front of them that they are under arrest, before they grab him to put him under arrest.....????

and I am not talking about a perp with a gun or knife, but a regular ole citizen on the street that they are going to arrest, like me...would they have to tell me that they are arresting me?

I truly don't know how that works???

so, I would have to be told I was under arrest before a peace officer tried to arrest me for something before they put the hand cuffs on me?

Is that how the law works? Seriously, I would like to know our rights as citizens!

and yes, it does seem like with Garner's comment that he could have been told he was under arrest? But we don't know for certain.