Freedom vs Healthcare

[JoeB131]

How did it ever come to this?
Democrats want to get insurance for people that don't have it...
And their solution?
Get everyone that did have insurance thrown off it....

And we have our Libs here saying this is a good thing???

Here's the thing.

"Everybody" isn't getting thrown off.

Let's run those numbers, Bob.

Pre- ACA, we had 110 million on Employer Plans, 30 million on Union Plans, and 10 million who privately negotiated with insurers. We had an additional 100 million on various government programs (Medicare, MedicAid, Schip, etc.) although there was a lot of overlap. Government employees had private plans, there was payments to insurance companies through Medicare Part C (the biggest Corporate Welfare Ripoff ever) and SCHIP. Not to mention, most insurance is only propped up through generous tax breaks...

We also, amazingly, still had 46 million uninsured. But the lesser talked about thing is that of that 150 million uninsured, 25 million were considered to be "underinsured". I.E.- their insurance was completely inadequate to handle any kind of medical crisis more serious than a hangnail.

Okay. Now here's where it gets complex. Realizing that some of the worst of the worst of the private plans were so bad that they didn't even meet the legal definition of insurance as laid out by the ACA, the insurance companies kept selling them knowing they'd be illegal in 2014. But instead of developing policies that did comply, they did what they could to undermine the law.

So right now, you have maybe as many as 5 million policies that were so bad they had to be cancelled. But most of those folks can and will find better policies that will comply. A few of them will pay more, but frankly, they should.

Now, two more points. Two ways this problem could have been avoided. 1) Pass a MediCare Buy in for people over 55. That would have gotten the harder to insure people into a program they could afford. 2) Pass a public option for people to buy into that normally big insurance wouldn't touch.

Big Insurance fought tooth and nail against that because they didn't want the competition.

 

[Wacky Quacky]

How did it ever come to this?
Democrats want to get insurance for people that don't have it...
And their solution?
Get everyone that did have insurance thrown off it....

And we have our Libs here saying this is a good thing???

Here's the thing.

"Everybody" isn't getting thrown off.

Let's run those numbers, Bob.

Pre- ACA, we had 110 million on Employer Plans, 30 million on Union Plans, and 10 million who privately negotiated with insurers. We had an additional 100 million on various government programs (Medicare, MedicAid, Schip, etc.) although there was a lot of overlap. Government employees had private plans, there was payments to insurance companies through Medicare Part C (the biggest Corporate Welfare Ripoff ever) and SCHIP. Not to mention, most insurance is only propped up through generous tax breaks...

We also, amazingly, still had 46 million uninsured. But the lesser talked about thing is that of that 150 million uninsured, 25 million were considered to be "underinsured". I.E.- their insurance was completely inadequate to handle any kind of medical crisis more serious than a hangnail.

Okay. Now here's where it gets complex. Realizing that some of the worst of the worst of the private plans were so bad that they didn't even meet the legal definition of insurance as laid out by the ACA, the insurance companies kept selling them knowing they'd be illegal in 2014. But instead of developing policies that did comply, they did what they could to undermine the law.

So right now, you have maybe as many as 5 million policies that were so bad they had to be cancelled. But most of those folks can and will find better policies that will comply. A few of them will pay more, but frankly, they should.

Now, two more points. Two ways this problem could have been avoided. 1) Pass a MediCare Buy in for people over 55. That would have gotten the harder to insure people into a program they could afford. 2) Pass a public option for people to buy into that normally big insurance wouldn't touch.

Big Insurance fought tooth and nail against that because they didn't want the competition.

Considered under insured by whom?

 

[Seawytch]

The Veteran's Administration is pure Socialism. Doctors are hired by the government, as is everyone else.

And it usually ranks among the highest for customer satisfaction. How odd considering it's that "government run" healthcare the righties have been frothing about. Kinda like the Medicare that Seniors want you to keep your government hands off of...

 

[Seawytch]

How did it ever come to this?
Democrats want to get insurance for people that don't have it...
And their solution?
Get everyone that did have insurance thrown off it....

And we have our Libs here saying this is a good thing???

Here's the thing.

"Everybody" isn't getting thrown off.

Let's run those numbers, Bob.

Pre- ACA, we had 110 million on Employer Plans, 30 million on Union Plans, and 10 million who privately negotiated with insurers. We had an additional 100 million on various government programs (Medicare, MedicAid, Schip, etc.) although there was a lot of overlap. Government employees had private plans, there was payments to insurance companies through Medicare Part C (the biggest Corporate Welfare Ripoff ever) and SCHIP. Not to mention, most insurance is only propped up through generous tax breaks...

We also, amazingly, still had 46 million uninsured. But the lesser talked about thing is that of that 150 million uninsured, 25 million were considered to be "underinsured". I.E.- their insurance was completely inadequate to handle any kind of medical crisis more serious than a hangnail.

Okay. Now here's where it gets complex. Realizing that some of the worst of the worst of the private plans were so bad that they didn't even meet the legal definition of insurance as laid out by the ACA, the insurance companies kept selling them knowing they'd be illegal in 2014. But instead of developing policies that did comply, they did what they could to undermine the law.

So right now, you have maybe as many as 5 million policies that were so bad they had to be cancelled. But most of those folks can and will find better policies that will comply. A few of them will pay more, but frankly, they should.

Now, two more points. Two ways this problem could have been avoided. 1) Pass a MediCare Buy in for people over 55. That would have gotten the harder to insure people into a program they could afford. 2) Pass a public option for people to buy into that normally big insurance wouldn't touch.

Big Insurance fought tooth and nail against that because they didn't want the competition.

Considered under insured by whom?

Anyone with a brain that looks at their policy.

I swear, it's like we don't remember the years long debate that went on before the ACA became law. Story after story of people losing their crap ass insurance when they got sick and then being unable to get insurance because of a pre-existing condition.

 

[Darkwind]

F__ your "freedom". I want single payer, and I know we'll eventually get it. Healthcare services for all, paid for by taxes.

fuck your single payer. I'll take freedom each and every moment of My life. Go cower somewhere else.

 

[Darkwind]

Here's the thing.

"Everybody" isn't getting thrown off.

Let's run those numbers, Bob.

Pre- ACA, we had 110 million on Employer Plans, 30 million on Union Plans, and 10 million who privately negotiated with insurers. We had an additional 100 million on various government programs (Medicare, MedicAid, Schip, etc.) although there was a lot of overlap. Government employees had private plans, there was payments to insurance companies through Medicare Part C (the biggest Corporate Welfare Ripoff ever) and SCHIP. Not to mention, most insurance is only propped up through generous tax breaks...

We also, amazingly, still had 46 million uninsured. But the lesser talked about thing is that of that 150 million uninsured, 25 million were considered to be "underinsured". I.E.- their insurance was completely inadequate to handle any kind of medical crisis more serious than a hangnail.

Okay. Now here's where it gets complex. Realizing that some of the worst of the worst of the private plans were so bad that they didn't even meet the legal definition of insurance as laid out by the ACA, the insurance companies kept selling them knowing they'd be illegal in 2014. But instead of developing policies that did comply, they did what they could to undermine the law.

So right now, you have maybe as many as 5 million policies that were so bad they had to be cancelled. But most of those folks can and will find better policies that will comply. A few of them will pay more, but frankly, they should.

Now, two more points. Two ways this problem could have been avoided. 1) Pass a MediCare Buy in for people over 55. That would have gotten the harder to insure people into a program they could afford. 2) Pass a public option for people to buy into that normally big insurance wouldn't touch.

Big Insurance fought tooth and nail against that because they didn't want the competition.

Considered under insured by whom?

Anyone with a brain that looks at their policy.

I swear, it's like we don't remember the years long debate that went on before the ACA became law. Story after story of people losing their crap ass insurance when they got sick and then being unable to get insurance because of a pre-existing condition.

I remember those debates. Everything we said would happen has come to pass. We've shown the lies of those who wanted national healthcare for the lies they were. We now have what is quickly approaching a national emergency and all you can do is pretend that you know better for people than they know for themselves.

The policies they had were the policies they wanted, and it was based upon their own particular situation.

Now comes along the imbeciles who think they know what is best for everyone and do maximum harm in their hubris.

You lost those debates and you don't even know it. How pathetic.

 

[JoeB131]

[

Considered under insured by whom?

Any reasonable standard.

But let's go with a good source, Kaiser Health.

The 'Underinsurance' Problem Explained - Kaiser Health News

Health experts say that the number of people who are underinsured is rising rapidly, and that the problem is increasingly affecting the middle class, as well as people with lower incomes. An estimated 25 million Americans between the ages of 19 and 64 were underinsured in 2007 — a 60 percent increase since 2003, according to a study in the journal Health Affairs.

Individuals were considered underinsured if they spent more than 10 percent of their incomes on out-of-pocket medical expenses (5 percent if they were low-income) or more than 5 percent on deductibles. Low-income adults were at the highest risk of being underinsured.

The increase in the underinsured is partly due to the fact that as health care and insurance costs have gone up, employers have bought policies with higher deductibles and co-payments and asking their workers to pay a greater share of the premiums.

 

[Seawytch]

So if a single payer healthcare system "erodes our freedoms", what has the US military done? Isn't paying for a standing army "eroding our freedoms"?

 

[NYcarbineer]

I'm just curious, who doesn't buy health insurance for their children, for no other reason than to prove how free they are?

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

F__ your "freedom".

At least you admit you're a fascist. Most Nazis are too embarrassed.

I want single payer, and I know we'll eventually get it. Healthcare services for all, paid for by taxes.

What you propose, fat ass, is unconstitutional.

No, it's not. Medicare is constitutional, so Medicare Part E (for everyone) would be legal, and popular, just like Medicare is.

Neither of which is a nationalization of the health care industry, stupid.

 

[Black_Label]

Koch bros and "big oil" are good for society.

 

[Wacky Quacky]

Here's the thing.

"Everybody" isn't getting thrown off.

Let's run those numbers, Bob.

Pre- ACA, we had 110 million on Employer Plans, 30 million on Union Plans, and 10 million who privately negotiated with insurers. We had an additional 100 million on various government programs (Medicare, MedicAid, Schip, etc.) although there was a lot of overlap. Government employees had private plans, there was payments to insurance companies through Medicare Part C (the biggest Corporate Welfare Ripoff ever) and SCHIP. Not to mention, most insurance is only propped up through generous tax breaks...

We also, amazingly, still had 46 million uninsured. But the lesser talked about thing is that of that 150 million uninsured, 25 million were considered to be "underinsured". I.E.- their insurance was completely inadequate to handle any kind of medical crisis more serious than a hangnail.

Okay. Now here's where it gets complex. Realizing that some of the worst of the worst of the private plans were so bad that they didn't even meet the legal definition of insurance as laid out by the ACA, the insurance companies kept selling them knowing they'd be illegal in 2014. But instead of developing policies that did comply, they did what they could to undermine the law.

So right now, you have maybe as many as 5 million policies that were so bad they had to be cancelled. But most of those folks can and will find better policies that will comply. A few of them will pay more, but frankly, they should.

Now, two more points. Two ways this problem could have been avoided. 1) Pass a MediCare Buy in for people over 55. That would have gotten the harder to insure people into a program they could afford. 2) Pass a public option for people to buy into that normally big insurance wouldn't touch.

Big Insurance fought tooth and nail against that because they didn't want the competition.

Considered under insured by whom?

Anyone with a brain that looks at their policy.

I swear, it's like we don't remember the years long debate that went on before the ACA became law. Story after story of people losing their crap ass insurance when they got sick and then being unable to get insurance because of a pre-existing condition.

You're talking about crooked insurance companies, not bad plans. Apples and oranges.

 

[Wacky Quacky]

[

Considered under insured by whom?

Any reasonable standard.

But let's go with a good source, Kaiser Health.

The 'Underinsurance' Problem Explained - Kaiser Health News

Health experts say that the number of people who are underinsured is rising rapidly, and that the problem is increasingly affecting the middle class, as well as people with lower incomes. An estimated 25 million Americans between the ages of 19 and 64 were underinsured in 2007 — a 60 percent increase since 2003, according to a study in the journal Health Affairs.

Individuals were considered underinsured if they spent more than 10 percent of their incomes on out-of-pocket medical expenses (5 percent if they were low-income) or more than 5 percent on deductibles. Low-income adults were at the highest risk of being underinsured.

The increase in the underinsured is partly due to the fact that as health care and insurance costs have gone up, employers have bought policies with higher deductibles and co-payments and asking their workers to pay a greater share of the premiums.

And under the ACA people on the exchange will have a deductible that is 26% higher on average. That means they will be spending more out of pocket. I guess the plans on the exchange are "crap" plans then. We should drop all of them, and force them to buy something more expensive.

 

[Jughead]

How did it ever come to this?
Democrats want to get insurance for people that don't have it...
And their solution?
Get everyone that did have insurance thrown off it....

And we have our Libs here saying this is a good thing???

I empathize with your post.

Folks who are self employed like business owners generally need to search for their health plans themselves, unlike those who work for a company where the company usually provides the plan. Those who have private insurance are more likely to lose their insurance vs those with the company plan. Business owners generally tend to side with the GOP as the GOP is more business friendly what with the various tax initiatives. Thus, I'd bet that the vast majority of those who lost their health plans were GOP supporters.

Many of the folks who did not have insurance were likely not able to afford it. Under Obama, from 2008 till 2012, welfare recipients increased 71% (from 26 million to 46 million). Most of these recipients will no doubt vote Democrat.

 

[Hoosier4Liberty]

Koch bros and "big oil" are good for society.

You do know that coal, oil, and natural gas all help power the computer you're using now, right? (likely coal and/or NG for electricity, and oil to produce many of the computer parts). Energy powers our world, and oil/natural gas/coal are the cheapest way to do so. Those companies produce a great benefit to society. They're the people that make sure we don't live a Stone Age lifestyle.

 

[Flopper]

How did it ever come to this?
Democrats want to get insurance for people that don't have it...
And their solution?
Get everyone that did have insurance thrown off it....

And we have our Libs here saying this is a good thing???

Here's the thing.

"Everybody" isn't getting thrown off.

Let's run those numbers, Bob.

Pre- ACA, we had 110 million on Employer Plans, 30 million on Union Plans, and 10 million who privately negotiated with insurers. We had an additional 100 million on various government programs (Medicare, MedicAid, Schip, etc.) although there was a lot of overlap. Government employees had private plans, there was payments to insurance companies through Medicare Part C (the biggest Corporate Welfare Ripoff ever) and SCHIP. Not to mention, most insurance is only propped up through generous tax breaks...

We also, amazingly, still had 46 million uninsured. But the lesser talked about thing is that of that 150 million uninsured, 25 million were considered to be "underinsured". I.E.- their insurance was completely inadequate to handle any kind of medical crisis more serious than a hangnail.

Okay. Now here's where it gets complex. Realizing that some of the worst of the worst of the private plans were so bad that they didn't even meet the legal definition of insurance as laid out by the ACA, the insurance companies kept selling them knowing they'd be illegal in 2014. But instead of developing policies that did comply, they did what they could to undermine the law.

So right now, you have maybe as many as 5 million policies that were so bad they had to be cancelled. But most of those folks can and will find better policies that will comply. A few of them will pay more, but frankly, they should.

Now, two more points. Two ways this problem could have been avoided. 1) Pass a MediCare Buy in for people over 55. That would have gotten the harder to insure people into a program they could afford. 2) Pass a public option for people to buy into that normally big insurance wouldn't touch.

Big Insurance fought tooth and nail against that because they didn't want the competition.

There you go trying to use facts and logic on right wing nuts.
The fact is everybody that get's a cancellation letter will have insurance in 2014, if they want it. They will be able to renew the current plan or purchase a plan that meets the requirements of the law either through the exchanges or their insurance broker.

 

[Xarm]

why don't we just insure people period. As in no need to pay because the governments got it covered?

 

[Political Junky]

Koch bros and "big oil" are good for society.

You do know that coal, oil, and natural gas all help power the computer you're using now, right? (likely coal and/or NG for electricity, and oil to produce many of the computer parts). Energy powers our world, and oil/natural gas/coal are the cheapest way to do so. Those companies produce a great benefit to society. They're the people that make sure we don't live a Stone Age lifestyle.

Why is it that the Right is against finding newer sources of energy? The ones you mention are from the 19th century.