"Gun Appreciation Day" Didn't Work Out So Well,..

[M14 Shooter]

The right too keep and bear arms can't be taken away
Canadians don't have that right

But just because you have the right to own a gun doesn't make it a good idea to own a gun. In fact, statistically speaking, gun ownership increases your chances of getting shot. Incidents of people shooting criminals are relatively rare. People shoot other accidentally far more often than people shoot real criminals.

To use a gun to defend one's self, it is not necessary to discharge the weapon, and so the number of criminals actually shot in self-defense is a meaningless number when trying to determine the value of having a gun for self-defense.

But, since seem to have a firm grasp on the numbers, maybe you can tell us how many people in the US use a gun to defend themselves compares the number of people in the US who accidentally shoot themselves.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I see no logic in your remarks. What difference does the right to bear arms make?

The difference between a right specifically protected from actions against it by the government and a privilege granted by the government should be obvious.

I doubt the founding fathers had visions of urban ghettos, drive by shootings, and men coming home drunk and threatening their families when they framed the second amendment, much less mentally unstable people committing mass shootings of innocents.

They also had no visions of cable news networks, the internet and cell phones, but the protections of the constitutions still apply.

The right to bear arms is not keeping you safe, quite the contrary. You are in far more danger of being shot by a family member or a friend/neighbour over some petty dispute, than you are of being shot by a criminal.

It is impossible for you to show that this statement is sound.

But keep blathering on about Obama coming to take your guns.

The Obama has openly stated that he wishes to ban rifles, handguns and shotguns - given that, I'm not sure how anyone could honestly think that concern over the future of the right to arms is unjustified or unwarranted.

 

[Dragonlady]

But, since seem to have a firm grasp on the numbers, maybe you can tell us how many people in the US use a gun to defend themselves compares the number of people in the US who accidentally shoot themselves.

This piece says there were 15,500 accidential shooting injuries in the US in 2008, and 680 deaths from accidental shootings:

Accidental Shooting | TheSurvivorsClub.org

Justifiable homicides for the for the 11-year period from 2000 to 2010 total 326 and guns were used in more than 80% of these deaths. This averages out to about 30 per year.

Self-defense killings in US nearly doubled from 2000-2010, statistics show - NYPOST.com

Even if guns were used in 100% of the justifable homicide deaths, 30 self-defense deaths versus 680 accidental shooting deaths, doesn't sound like a very good trade-off to me.

And I haven't even talked about gun suicides.

 

[M14 Shooter]

But, since seem to have a firm grasp on the numbers, maybe you can tell us how many people in the US use a gun to defend themselves compares the number of people in the US who accidentally shoot themselves.

This piece says there were 15,500 accidential shooting injuries in the US in 2008, and 680 deaths from accidental shootings:

Accidental Shooting | TheSurvivorsClub.org

Justifiable homicides for the for the 11-year period from 2000 to 2010 total 326 and guns were used in more than 80% of these deaths. This averages out to about 30 per year.

Self-defense killings in US nearly doubled from 2000-2010, statistics show - NYPOST.com

Even if guns were used in 100% of the justifable homicide deaths, 30 self-defense deaths versus 680 accidental shooting deaths, doesn't sound like a very good trade-off to me.

And I haven't even talked about gun suicides.

Please pay particular attention to the bold:

To use a gun to defend one's self, it is not necessary to discharge the weapon, and so the number of criminals actually shot in self-defense is meaningless when trying to determine the value of having a gun for self-defense.

I'll ask you again to tell us how many people in the US use a gun to defend themselves compares the number of people in the US who accidentally shoot themselves.

Thank you.

 

[Saigon]

The right to bear arms is not keeping you safe, quite the contrary. You are in far more danger of being shot by a family member or a friend/neighbour over some petty dispute, than you are of being shot by a criminal.

It is impossible for you to show that this statement is sound.

.

Um...what?

The US has the highest gun-related homicide of any developed country, and Americans are 20 times more likely to die of fun shot wounds than people in any other developed country, and you think this point is not "sound"?!

There is plenty of research (i.e. Harvard studies) that prove exactly Dragnlady's point here.

 

[zeke]

But, since seem to have a firm grasp on the numbers, maybe you can tell us how many people in the US use a gun to defend themselves compares the number of people in the US who accidentally shoot themselves.

This piece says there were 15,500 accidential shooting injuries in the US in 2008, and 680 deaths from accidental shootings:

Accidental Shooting | TheSurvivorsClub.org

Justifiable homicides for the for the 11-year period from 2000 to 2010 total 326 and guns were used in more than 80% of these deaths. This averages out to about 30 per year.

Self-defense killings in US nearly doubled from 2000-2010, statistics show - NYPOST.com

Even if guns were used in 100% of the justifable homicide deaths, 30 self-defense deaths versus 680 accidental shooting deaths, doesn't sound like a very good trade-off to me.

And I haven't even talked about gun suicides.

Please pay particular attention to the bold:

To use a gun to defend one's self, it is not necessary to discharge the weapon, and so the number of criminals actually shot in self-defense is a meaningless number when trying to determine the value of having a gun for self-defense.

I'll ask you again to tell us how many people in the US use a gun to defend themselves compares the number of people in the US who accidentally shoot themselves.

Thank you.

Hey hey, you must have those stats right at your fingertips. Maybe you can pull out that old bullshit Keller study. You know the one that says 6849 time a DAY that weapons are used to stop crimes. Is that the one you are wanting to use? Then prove 6849 a day. 2.5 million a year. Sure dude sure.


And you think pulling your gun without the intent to use it is a crime deterrent? Sounds to me like that idea will just get you shot by whoever it is you are trying to intimidate.

My BIL tried that not to long ago. Flashed his gun in its shoulder holster. Scared the people he was trying to intimidate so bad, they went in and got their Uzi. He got in his truck and left the scene quickly. Without getting shot, thank god.

 

[zeke]

Hey m14, how many kids get killed accidentally by guns in the parents house. Or another parents house where the kid was a visitor. Pull that number out of your "stats". Should be an interesting one.

 

[M14 Shooter]

This piece says there were 15,500 accidential shooting injuries in the US in 2008, and 680 deaths from accidental shootings:

Accidental Shooting | TheSurvivorsClub.org

Justifiable homicides for the for the 11-year period from 2000 to 2010 total 326 and guns were used in more than 80% of these deaths. This averages out to about 30 per year.

Self-defense killings in US nearly doubled from 2000-2010, statistics show - NYPOST.com

Even if guns were used in 100% of the justifable homicide deaths, 30 self-defense deaths versus 680 accidental shooting deaths, doesn't sound like a very good trade-off to me.

And I haven't even talked about gun suicides.

Please pay particular attention to the bold:

To use a gun to defend one's self, it is not necessary to discharge the weapon, and so the number of criminals actually shot in self-defense is a meaningless number when trying to determine the value of having a gun for self-defense.

I'll ask you again to tell us how many people in the US use a gun to defend themselves compares the number of people in the US who accidentally shoot themselves.

Thank you.

Hey hey, you must have those stats right at your fingertips..

I see that you cannot provide the information I asked for.
Thank you for wasting everyones time with your unresponsive response.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Hey m14, how many kids get killed accidentally by guns in the parents house. Or another parents house where the kid was a visitor. Pull that number out of your "stats". Should be an interesting one.

Ssssshhhhh....
Adults are trying to have an adult conversation.

 

[OODA_Loop]

The right to bear arms is not keeping you safe, quite the contrary. You are in far more danger of being shot by a family member or a friend/neighbour over some petty dispute, than you are of being shot by a criminal.

It is impossible for you to show that this statement is sound.

.

Um...what?

The US has the highest gun-related homicide of any developed country, and Americans are 20 times more likely to die of fun shot wounds than people in any other developed country, and you think this point is not "sound"?!

There is plenty of research (i.e. Harvard studies) that prove exactly Dragnlady's point here.

Estimated 400,000,000 guns in private ownership.

8,583 homicides in 2011.

 

[OODA_Loop]

Hey m14, how many kids get killed accidentally by guns in the parents house. Or another parents house where the kid was a visitor. Pull that number out of your "stats". Should be an interesting one.

Not the gun's fault.

Parents fault.

 

[Saigon]

Hey m14, how many kids get killed accidentally by guns in the parents house. Or another parents house where the kid was a visitor. Pull that number out of your "stats". Should be an interesting one.

Not the gun's fault.

Parents fault.

Would it happen in homes without a gun?

So actually the gun is clearly a causative factor, isn't it?

 

[M14 Shooter]

Hey m14, how many kids get killed accidentally by guns in the parents house. Or another parents house where the kid was a visitor. Pull that number out of your "stats". Should be an interesting one.

Not the gun's fault.
Parents fault.

Either way, its irrelevant to the conversation I'm having.

 

[OODA_Loop]

Hey m14, how many kids get killed accidentally by guns in the parents house. Or another parents house where the kid was a visitor. Pull that number out of your "stats". Should be an interesting one.

Not the gun's fault.

Parents fault.

Would it happen in homes without a gun?

So actually the gun is clearly a causative factor, isn't it?

No. It is an inanimate object.

It takes willful thought to put it into motion or the irresponsibility of its owner to allow it to fall into the wrong hands.

 

[Dragonlady]

I see that you cannot provide the information I asked for.
Thank you for wasting everyones time with your unresponsive response.

There are no accurate figures available for how many times people use guns to defend themselves. Estimates range from 100,000 times per year to 2.5 million. Neither figure is considered to be accurate because flaws in the data collection methodolgy.

But I suspect you knew all of this before you even asked the question.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I see that you cannot provide the information I asked for.
Thank you for wasting everyones time with your unresponsive response.

There are no accurate figures available for how many times people use guns to defend themselves. Estimates range from 100,000 times per year to 2.5 million. Neither figure is considered to be accurate because flaws in the data collection methodolgy.

Because it is not necessary to discharge the weapon to use it in self-defense, number of criminals actually shot in self-defense compared to the mumer of people that accidentally is a meaningless standard by which determine the value of having a gun for self-defense.

And so, your claims...

Incidents of people shooting criminals are relatively rare. People shoot other accidentally far more often than people shoot real criminals.

...are meaningless.

So, you can imply that it is not a good idea to own a gun, but, in terms of accidental shootings v defensive uses, you cannot show this to actually be the case -- unless, of couse, you can show how many times guns are used defensvely.

 

[Dragonlady]

So, you can imply that it is not a good idea to own a gun, but, in terms of accidental shootings v defensive uses, you cannot show this to actually be the case -- unless, of couse, you can show how many times guns are used defensvely.

But the reverse is also true. You have no idea if the cost in accidental deaths, injuries or suicides is worth the price of that self defense.

Since we really have no idea of how often guns are used in self-defense, you have no idea yourself whether your belief that guns make people safer is true. Most of the problems with these surveys is that the questions seldom ask whether there really was a burlar lurking outside, or the neighbour's cat knocked over a garbage can. They just ask if you have drawn a gun for self-defense. So if you take the gun outside to investigate, that's a yes, even if there never was any danger to begin with.

However, looking at the overal gun crime and death rates in the US compares to every other first world nation on earth and the overwhelming conclusion is that the cost of unrestricted gun ownership, is not worth the price. Americans have the highest rates of overall crime and gun crime in the first world.

 

[M14 Shooter]

So, you can imply that it is not a good idea to own a gun, but, in terms of accidental shootings v defensive uses, you cannot show this to actually be the case -- unless, of couse, you can show how many times guns are used defensvely.

But the reverse is also true. You have no idea if the cost in accidental deaths, injuries or suicides is worth the price of that self defense.

I have made no claims.
You have. We're discussiing that claim.
You have no honest choice but to admit that, in terms of defensive uses v accidental shootings, the metric you initially chose, you cannot support your claim.

 

[Dragonlady]

You have no honest choice but to admit that, in terms of defensive uses v accidental shootings, the metric you initially chose, you cannot support your claim.

Ah, but neither can you support your claim that my information is false. On the other hand I did find a very interesting study which conducted in depth surveys of people who had used guns for self defense, sent the gun owners reports of the events to criminal judges and had the judge provide an opinion as to whether this was a valid, legal claim of self defence and they found that:

Even after excluding many reported firearm victimizations, far more survey respondents report having been threatened or intimidated with a gun than having used a gun to protect themselves. A majority of the reported self defense gun uses were rated as probably illegal by a majority of judges. This was so even under the assumption that the respondent had a permit to own and carry the gun, and that the respondent had described the event honestly

The study concluded that:

Guns are used to threaten and intimidate far more often than they are used in self defense. Most self reported self defense gun uses may well be illegal and against the interests of society.

Gun use in the United States: results from two national surveys -- Hemenway et al. 6 (4): 263 -- Injury Prevention

Here are links to three Harvard studies:

Harvard School of Public Health » Harvard Injury Control Research Center » Accidents

1. Across states, more guns = more unintentional firearm deaths

2. Across states, unsafe gun storage = more unintentional firearm deaths

3. Youth killed in gun accidents are shot by other youth

No. 2 would seem to be a no-brainer and a waste of research monies.

If unrestricted private gun ownership makes people safer and reduces crime, why does the US have more murders and violent crime than any other nations which restrict gun control. If guns keep people safe, why is the US the most crime ridden first world nation on earth?

 

[M14 Shooter]

You have no honest choice but to admit that, in terms of defensive uses v accidental shootings, the metric you initially chose, you cannot support your claim.

Ah, but neither can you support your claim that my information is false.

I did not say that your claim was false, I said you could not support it with the metric you chose.
I did not say that the information you used to support your claims was false, I explained how it is not a competent metric.

However true your supporting information may be, the support of your claim is based on criminal deaths by defensive gunfire, which is not a true measure of the number of defensive gun uses.

So, again:
You have no honest choice but to admit that, in terms of defensive uses v accidental shootings, the metric you initially chose - justifiable homicides v accidental deaths - you cannot support your claim.

And so, until you come up with the number of times guns are useed for self-defense, and then gauge that number against a relevant standard, you cannot support your claim at all.