CDZ Gun Control vs. Mental Health Care

[Bonzi]

People want to ban guns because that is what gets press. You can't ban knives, we use them in the kitchen. It's just something to blame bad behavior on..

 

[Sonny Clark]

You know how hard it is to get people committed or help? And even if you do, they can talk their way out of a facility, they are only there short term.

The same is true if someone is threatening your life. They have to actually try to take your life before the police can do anything, and then, many times it's too late.

We are so worried about individual rights, people are dying because of it....

People are NOT dying because of protecting rights, that's pathetic and silly. People are dying because we have crazy people living amongst us. We have people that believe they have nothing to lose by killing others. We have the depressed, the drug users, the lonely, the ones going through family issues, gang members, cults, those that have no hope for the future, and those that carry hatred in their hearts 24/7.

We're NOT mind readers. We never know when someone may go postal and take out a dozen innocent lives. We don't have the technology to know what people are thinking and feeling. We can NOT blame guns for mental disorders, depression, lost hope, excessive drug use, domestic issues that result in murder or violence, gangs, cults, and other anti-social and uncivil behavior and acts. Taking away guns will NOT solve the problem.

True, that's not even realistic. If God Herself came down ten minutes from now and declared "that's it, no more guns can be made, ever", we'd still have more than enough for every man, woman and child, literally. You can't control that.

Throwing legislation at this is just political posturing worded to look like "we're doing something". It's not. The issue is not legislative; it's cultural. What we need is value shift. Away from the mindless worship of death machines.

Speaking of death machines, I'm guessing you would also like to see all motor vehicles banned and never again produced.

Very ridiculous and silly. NO !!! ----- I would NOT want to see vehicles banned, nor would I want to see production of them stopped. What about planes, trains, ships, baseball bats, hammers, knives, rope, poisons, etc. etc. etc.. Do we ban just to be banning? There are many things that kill, many. If we were to ban everything that can kill, we'd have almost nothing left, including people.

My response was directed at the gun-banners, not you. Apologies for any misunderstanding.

No problem. It's OK.

 

[gallantwarrior]

We need both

We can't lock every person with mental problems in an institution
We can keep them away from guns

How would you keep guns out of their hands? Do you know of some magic that would keep guns out of people's hands? If so, please tell all of us the secret. Thanks.

We have in this country laws (not unlike the immigration laws) that are designed to disallow the monsters access to guns. Apparently, just like the Immigration laws, they don't seem to work.

I suppose, that just like the immigration laws that we refuse to enforce, the left uses the excuse that "gun laws are broken" and we need drastic "action" to stop this.

Notice any correlation here?

We can't stop anything, period. We can't stop illegal drugs, gangs, terrorists, illegal immigrants, guns, prostitution, illegal gambling, moonshine, etc. etc. etc. etc.. We just make laws to pacify the masses when the noise gets loud enough. In other words, grease the wheel that squeaks the loudest, and at the right time. It's all about votes, special interests, favoritism, and in some cases, greed. The government does what it thinks is best in order to keep people from rioting and conducting violence in the streets. They just want to make it appear that they have everyone's best interest at heart. It's all for show.

Observe the bolded portion of your statement. It seems to me that recently, the government, or at least some major representatives of the government, have actually been encouraging riots and violence.

That is purely speculation, nothing more. How are we to know whether that is true or not? I agree, that within the past several months, certain events have taken place that might be considered as promoted in some way by authorities, whether government or otherwise.

I meant in my statement that you are referring to, that the government does not want a mass civil uprising, and attempts to squash unrest before it gets totally out of control. I do not believe that the government wants nationwide uprising of a violent nature.

The government does not a want a mass civil uprising, true. But local outbursts of violence, directed against specific segments of society, do seem to be a directed goal of som government officials.

 

[Bonzi]

Sonny Clark hope you are having a good evening

 

[Sonny Clark]

Sonny Clark hope you are having a good evening

Thanks. I've been watching golf for hours. The U.S. Open. I'm having a fine evening. I hope that you're having one also.

 

[gallantwarrior]

You know how hard it is to get people committed or help? And even if you do, they can talk their way out of a facility, they are only there short term.

The same is true if someone is threatening your life. They have to actually try to take your life before the police can do anything, and then, many times it's too late.

We are so worried about individual rights, people are dying because of it....

I've said the same thing for years. It's difficult to get people to understand that it's not guns, it's the crazy people that use guns

We need nutbag control. Mental health is surely part of that.
Cultural change is a bigger part.

People are NOT dying because of protecting rights, that's pathetic and silly. People are dying because we have crazy people living amongst us. We have people that believe they have nothing to lose by killing others. We have the depressed, the drug users, the lonely, the ones going through family issues, gang members, cults, those that have no hope for the future, and those that carry hatred in their hearts 24/7.

We're NOT mind readers. We never know when someone may go postal and take out a dozen innocent lives. We don't have the technology to know what people are thinking and feeling. We can NOT blame guns for mental disorders, depression, lost hope, excessive drug use, domestic issues that result in murder or violence, gangs, cults, and other anti-social and uncivil behavior and acts. Taking away guns will NOT solve the problem.

True, that's not even realistic. If God Herself came down ten minutes from now and declared "that's it, no more guns can be made, ever", we'd still have more than enough for every man, woman and child, literally. You can't control that.

Throwing legislation at this is just political posturing worded to look like "we're doing something". It's not. The issue is not legislative; it's cultural. What we need is value shift. Away from the mindless worship of death machines.

Speaking of death machines, I'm guessing you would also like to see all motor vehicles banned and never again produced.

Complete non sequitur.

Motor vehicles are transportation machines. Just as blenders are food-making machines or air conditioners are cooling machines. You can be hit by a car, have your arm gnarled in a blender or be hit on the head by an air conditioner falling out a window, but none of those actions would be consistent with what the machine is designed for.

I disagree. Many more die from legally owned and operated motor vehicles than legally owned and operated firearms annually. So why not an such dangerous and lethal Death machines?

 

[Bonzi]

Sonny Clark hope you are having a good evening

Thanks. I've been watching golf for hours. The U.S. Open. I'm having a fine evening. I hope that you're having one also.

Yeah we have had it on also. Are you cheering for anyone? We like Dustin Johnson & Jordan Speith. My favorites are actually Jason Duffner and Sergio Garcia but they are not in contention... so will root for Dustin Johnson (Finau was on Big Break that's kinda interesting...)

 

[gallantwarrior]

People are NOT dying because of protecting rights, that's pathetic and silly. People are dying because we have crazy people living amongst us. We have people that believe they have nothing to lose by killing others. We have the depressed, the drug users, the lonely, the ones going through family issues, gang members, cults, those that have no hope for the future, and those that carry hatred in their hearts 24/7.

We're NOT mind readers. We never know when someone may go postal and take out a dozen innocent lives. We don't have the technology to know what people are thinking and feeling. We can NOT blame guns for mental disorders, depression, lost hope, excessive drug use, domestic issues that result in murder or violence, gangs, cults, and other anti-social and uncivil behavior and acts. Taking away guns will NOT solve the problem.

True, that's not even realistic. If God Herself came down ten minutes from now and declared "that's it, no more guns can be made, ever", we'd still have more than enough for every man, woman and child, literally. You can't control that.

Throwing legislation at this is just political posturing worded to look like "we're doing something". It's not. The issue is not legislative; it's cultural. What we need is value shift. Away from the mindless worship of death machines.

Speaking of death machines, I'm guessing you would also like to see all motor vehicles banned and never again produced.

Very ridiculous and silly. NO !!! ----- I would NOT want to see vehicles banned, nor would I want to see production of them stopped. What about planes, trains, ships, baseball bats, hammers, knives, rope, poisons, etc. etc. etc.. Do we ban just to be banning? There are many things that kill, many. If we were to ban everything that can kill, we'd have almost nothing left, including people.

My response was directed at the gun-banners, not you. Apologies for any misunderstanding.

No problem. It's OK.

Pax. I do believe we agree.

 

[Bonzi]

Can't compare cars and guns - cars are made to drive. guns kill (usually) .... I'm all for gun ownership, that being said, but it's a poor comparison.

 

[gallantwarrior]

People are NOT dying because of protecting rights, that's pathetic and silly. People are dying because we have crazy people living amongst us. We have people that believe they have nothing to lose by killing others. We have the depressed, the drug users, the lonely, the ones going through family issues, gang members, cults, those that have no hope for the future, and those that carry hatred in their hearts 24/7.

We're NOT mind readers. We never know when someone may go postal and take out a dozen innocent lives. We don't have the technology to know what people are thinking and feeling. We can NOT blame guns for mental disorders, depression, lost hope, excessive drug use, domestic issues that result in murder or violence, gangs, cults, and other anti-social and uncivil behavior and acts. Taking away guns will NOT solve the problem.

True, that's not even realistic. If God Herself came down ten minutes from now and declared "that's it, no more guns can be made, ever", we'd still have more than enough for every man, woman and child, literally. You can't control that.

Throwing legislation at this is just political posturing worded to look like "we're doing something". It's not. The issue is not legislative; it's cultural. What we need is value shift. Away from the mindless worship of death machines.

Speaking of death machines, I'm guessing you would also like to see all motor vehicles banned and never again produced.

Very ridiculous and silly. NO !!! ----- I would NOT want to see vehicles banned, nor would I want to see production of them stopped. What about planes, trains, ships, baseball bats, hammers, knives, rope, poisons, etc. etc. etc.. Do we ban just to be banning? There are many things that kill, many. If we were to ban everything that can kill, we'd have almost nothing left, including people.

Then why the call to ban firearms?

I'm NOT calling for a ban on firearms. I would never ban firearms. I like my guns. I see no reason to ban firearms.

No, you certainly are not. But Pogo seems to be determined to call for disarming everyone in order to prevent some from using firearms for murders they might just as easily use knives, bats, or some other device for.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

We don't need gun control in the US.

We need better mental health care.

Agree or not?

False dilemma fallacy, both are necessary and proper.

 

[Bonzi]

Pogo oh well...

 

[gallantwarrior]

Can't compare cars and guns - cars are made to drive. guns kill (usually) .... I'm all for gun ownership, that being said, but it's a poor comparison.

Considering inanimate objects used to cause harm to others. I view my firearms as tools, and perhaps recreational devices. Calling for banning of firearms because some bad actors use them to harm others is as nonsensical as calling for the banning of motor vehicles.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

You know how hard it is to get people committed or help? And even if you do, they can talk their way out of a facility, they are only there short term.

The same is true if someone is threatening your life. They have to actually try to take your life before the police can do anything, and then, many times it's too late.

We are so worried about individual rights, people are dying because of it....

I've said the same thing for years. It's difficult to get people to understand that it's not guns, it's the crazy people that use guns

We need nutbag control. Mental health is surely part of that.
Cultural change is a bigger part.

Disagree.

Comprehensive mental health screening of school-age children and teens can detect mental illness at the onset, making treatment more effective.

The mental health component is to detect, treat, and prevent, not 'lock away adult crazy people.'

 

[my2¢]

I disagree mental health care would help and instead take stance that gun control laws need to be extended to better deal with mental health. Under our laws only those the court deem mentally unfit or have been committed to a mental institution are restricted from legally purchasing guns. It was well known that Jared Loughner was mentally unstable, he had been kicked out of college and rejected by the Army due to such but our gun control laws allowed his legal purchase of a gun. It is pitiful that his rights weren't restricted prior to congresswoman Giffords' appearance in a Tucson Safeway parking lot.

 

[Christophera]

You know how hard it is to get people committed or help? And even if you do, they can talk their way out of a facility, they are only there short term.

The same is true if someone is threatening your life. They have to actually try to take your life before the police can do anything, and then, many times it's too late.

We are so worried about individual rights, people are dying because of it....

What you say is true, but mostly because psychology is NOT sure of itself unless it's so obvious, a psychologist is not needed to make the diagnosis.

The basic problem is that psychology is ONLY treating the conscious mind and it WILL evade exactly as you describe. I've investigated this non feasance and it is definitely caused by church control over state who issues the license to the psychologist. Such control is an inherent part of academia.

Here is a letter from the director of the county mental health department which is a defacto approval of a method to reach the unconscious mind and learn from it then influence it WITH the conscious mind mostly disabled. A very temporary event.

Unconscious intents can be determined and intervened in with great efficiency BEFORE any extreme behaviors are actually acted out.

Mentally ill people who have a capacity for extreme violence do not want to be the way they are. If there were viable escapes from the inner torments, they would use them and be grateful for the opportunity to find true relief without destroying others or themselves.

I've said the same thing for years. It's difficult to get people to understand that it's not guns, it's the crazy people that use guns

True, but getting to the part of the crazy that is ready to kill is not something psychology can do until the influence of church and governmental maintenance of secrecy abusing unconscious minds is ended.

We need nutbag control. Mental health is surely part of that.
Cultural change is a bigger part.

Yes, but through development of true mental care our sick society can actually heal to the point where it can invest in actual culture.

Culture is about needs and much of America does not know the difference between the two. This is medias doing.

To control that, we will need a lawful and peaceful revolution.

CDZ - A Lawful And Peaceful Revolution US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

 

[Pogo]

True, that's not even realistic. If God Herself came down ten minutes from now and declared "that's it, no more guns can be made, ever", we'd still have more than enough for every man, woman and child, literally. You can't control that.

Throwing legislation at this is just political posturing worded to look like "we're doing something". It's not. The issue is not legislative; it's cultural. What we need is value shift. Away from the mindless worship of death machines.

Speaking of death machines, I'm guessing you would also like to see all motor vehicles banned and never again produced.

Very ridiculous and silly. NO !!! ----- I would NOT want to see vehicles banned, nor would I want to see production of them stopped. What about planes, trains, ships, baseball bats, hammers, knives, rope, poisons, etc. etc. etc.. Do we ban just to be banning? There are many things that kill, many. If we were to ban everything that can kill, we'd have almost nothing left, including people.

Then why the call to ban firearms?

I'm NOT calling for a ban on firearms. I would never ban firearms. I like my guns. I see no reason to ban firearms.

No, you certainly are not. But Pogo seems to be determined to call for disarming everyone in order to prevent some from using firearms for murders they might just as easily use knives, bats, or some other device for.

Huh?

When or where have I ever called for disarming anyone GW? Are you confusing me with someone else?

I've never made an argument like that here or anywhere else. I've goine out of my way to make the point that that approach is facile, unworkable and would be ineffective anyway.

 

[gallantwarrior]

Speaking of death machines, I'm guessing you would also like to see all motor vehicles banned and never again produced.

Very ridiculous and silly. NO !!! ----- I would NOT want to see vehicles banned, nor would I want to see production of them stopped. What about planes, trains, ships, baseball bats, hammers, knives, rope, poisons, etc. etc. etc.. Do we ban just to be banning? There are many things that kill, many. If we were to ban everything that can kill, we'd have almost nothing left, including people.

Then why the call to ban firearms?

I'm NOT calling for a ban on firearms. I would never ban firearms. I like my guns. I see no reason to ban firearms.

No, you certainly are not. But Pogo seems to be determined to call for disarming everyone in order to prevent some from using firearms for murders they might just as easily use knives, bats, or some other device for.

Huh?

When or where have I ever called for disarming anyone GW? Are you confusing me with someone else?

I've never made an argument like that here or anywhere else. I've goine out of my way to make the point that that approach is facile, unworkable and would be ineffective anyway.

If I've confused you with someone else, apologies.

 

[Pogo]

Very ridiculous and silly. NO !!! ----- I would NOT want to see vehicles banned, nor would I want to see production of them stopped. What about planes, trains, ships, baseball bats, hammers, knives, rope, poisons, etc. etc. etc.. Do we ban just to be banning? There are many things that kill, many. If we were to ban everything that can kill, we'd have almost nothing left, including people.

Then why the call to ban firearms?

I'm NOT calling for a ban on firearms. I would never ban firearms. I like my guns. I see no reason to ban firearms.

No, you certainly are not. But Pogo seems to be determined to call for disarming everyone in order to prevent some from using firearms for murders they might just as easily use knives, bats, or some other device for.

Huh?

When or where have I ever called for disarming anyone GW? Are you confusing me with someone else?

I've never made an argument like that here or anywhere else. I've gone out of my way to make the point that that approach is facile, unworkable and would be ineffective anyway.

If I've confused you with someone else, apologies.

I've articulated it in this very thread, as well as every other one I've posted in - this was the hot driving issue of the moment when I joined this site -- right after the Bob Costat/Jovan Belcher commentary and right before the Newtown and Webster shootings. It was what drove me here to make the points on gun violence, which I see as vitally important.

Two and a half years of not being listened to. Fuck.

This is why I'm losing interest in this board-- you can make any number of points, illustrations, documentations, link images, videos, books, quotes.... and nobody's listening. Just talking.

 

[RandallFlagg]

We don't need gun control in the US.

We need better mental health care.

Agree or not?

We need both

We can't lock every person with mental problems in an institution
We can keep them away from guns

How would you keep guns out of their hands? Do you know of some magic that would keep guns out of people's hands? If so, please tell all of us the secret. Thanks.

Those suffering from depression, bipolar, schizo, on psychiatric medications, wife beaters

No guns for you

No kidding? That has been the "law" for the last 30 years. If the ACLU could keep their meddling hands out of it - it might work.