Guns. I'm just throwing my point of view out there. If I'm wrong then explain it to me.

[frigidweirdo]

You never said nothing should be done, but you ooze nothing should be done every time you reply.

Yes, people who should commit violent crimes should be locked up, however society should also do what it can to prevent people from committing violent crimes, and the US certainly doesn't do this, and states like Louisiana most definitely want to make sure such a thing doesn't happen.

There are reasons some places are more violent that others, don't you think? And a lot of this will depend on how proactive the state government is.

And government can be proactive by ensuring everyone have ample access to early, comprehensive mental health services.

Yes, that's the difference, being pro-active as opposed to the US where views like Skull Pilot's are often heard. The whole "I don't give a fuck, I only care about money, fuck those around me, I don't care" sort of attitude which, I suppose, is the sort of attitude that causes all empires to fall. Money becomes the God.

You can't be proactive for someone else.

And where did I ever say I only care about money?

But I do know that you have a pathological need to control the lives of other people whereas I do nit share that pathology

Yes, you can be proactive for someone else. Peter the Great was proactive for his whole country. That's what great leaders do, they make things better for most people.

I didn't say you did say you only cared about money. I'm basically looking at what you're writing and coming to conclusions.

Pathological need huh?

No, actually I'm a realist. Firstly that the vast majority of people will be controlled. And they can be controlled in a good way or in a bad way. You seem to be willing to let people open to be controlled by bad forces. I'm wary of controlling people, but realize it has to be done. You think you can just descend into anarchy and hey, it'll be okay because that's what libertarianism's all about. But it doesn't work. No one place has ever worked as anarchy, because people will rise up and control.


I also understand that people are thrown into their lives, and the fumble and bumble around and they make lots of mistakes which they regret later on. It's a part of life. However sometimes you get lucky, like being born into a proactive country, and sometimes you get so fucked over, like being poor in the US.

Also I understand that people want to live life with certain things, health, education, jobs, and these are important. They're often more important than freedoms. People like to have freedoms, but freedoms don't put food on the table, don't give them hope for the future.

Where's America's hope right now? It's in politicians who shout the word "hope" as loud as they can and then do nothing about it. The US is losing hope because education sucks (unless you have money), healthcare sucks (unless you have money), jobs suck (unless you have money).... and that's what people end up wanting. They become obsessed with money, money buys you the hope that you need because the govt is so fucking useless in the US that it doesn't offer what people want first and foremost.

and since people can be controlled you might as well be the one controlling them right?

No, this isn't about ME.

This is about SOCIETY. This is why we have DEMOCRACY, democracy is supposed to be the people having a say in their society, making it better for themselves, rather than having a small rich elite surrounding a monarch and getting rich off of corruption. But, the US has turned into George III's elites and poor. The elite being as corrupt as fuck, controlling the politicians, getting favor from the leaders, and the poor getting fucked over.

You have a revolution and then 250 years later it's all gone, nothing left, the democracy, the freedom from the elite, it's all gone up in smoke.... nice one.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Anything can change but it takes a choice by the individual to make that change. It cannot be forced upon them the way you would want it to be.

Yeah, right, so six year olds, living in a house with a single mother who works 60 hours a week, in a ghetto surrounded by criminals, drugs, murders are going to go out there and make those changes, right?

Yes, actually when it comes to adults there has to be desire. But the problem is, people are shaped as kids, and they're not being shaped properly, so when they come to be adults and they don't get any help and they've grown up in a shitty area, then what?

All this "only individuals can do anything" lark is rubbish. In fact if you look around the western world you'll see that it's the opposite of what happens. We're not talking about making 100% of people into a massive success, just giving people the chance to get out. But you seem to be saying that we shouldn't give them the chance, that they have to make this chance out of nothing, and break massive trends (the trends being the problems which will lead to an ever worse generation beyond.

Why not?

I grew up with a single mother who was wacko bi polar and have been taking care of myself since I was 8

And the chances are all already there for people willing to take them.

This is the "I can do it, so everyone else can". Sorry, just because it's not hot where you are, doesn't mean there isn't any global warming.

Many people can't just go out into the world and do as you have done, we know this. It's fact. We see it all the time.

Why does the US have ghettos when most other first world countries don't? Yes, they have poorer areas, but they don't have what the US has got. The simple answer is because the US is not proactive. It is a country for the rich, by the rich. The rich control everything. They're happy they don't have to pay much in taxes, they're happy that poor people are killing each other and keeping people in fear, they're happy with the way they control govt, and they tell you how to think, so you just go off and think like that.

There are plenty of reasons why other people struggle. People's brains work differently, people have mental problems (which many states deal with by locking up the people with mental problems, rather than dealing with the problems before they get there), if you have mental problems, your life is going to be much harder in the US than in many other first world countries. Then you have learning difficulties. If you're poor and have learning difficulties, you're fucked. In fact many people are born (we damn you don't have an abortion) and then they're fucked from day one through their life, destined to be in a gang dealing drugs. Wonderful.

But fuck it, who gives a fuck, you did well, so fuck all those who aren't doing well, right?

Yeah I did it so anyone can.
Unlike you I believe people can accomplish things if they choose.
You think everyone needs to be told what to do and how to live the way you think they should live

and tell me again how many trillions of dollars we have spent on welfare programs and the war on poverty?

The help is out there if people want it

And FYI the poor in this country are no worse off than the poor in any other first world industrialized country

Astonishing Numbers: America's Poor Still Live Better Than Most Of The Rest Of Humanity

Where did I say people can accomplish things? Sure they can. People can, but not everyone can. And if you're in the ghettos then the chances are people aren't going to accomplish things. This isn't what I wish, this is the REALITY of parts of the US.

Again, I ask these questions and get vague answers back. Why does the US have the highest prison population in the first world? Why does it have ghettos worse than any country in the first world? There's something wrong in the US and a lot of people have been sucked in and they can't get out, and many of the people do want to get out, but they can't. They can't because they don't have the education, or they committed crimes when they were younger, and people won't give them the chances they need to do better for themselves. Then there are the ones who have grown used to that way of life and can't change.

This isn't about what I think people can or can't do, this is about what is happening in the US right now and which you ignore every time by saying 'well, I grew up with this kind of mother and I did okay", but yu didn't grow up in a fucking ghetto.

So your goal is to have everyone succeed as you define it.

and what is happening in the US right now is that the poor are no worse off than they would be in most other industrialized countries

 

[Skull Pilot]

And government can be proactive by ensuring everyone have ample access to early, comprehensive mental health services.

Yes, that's the difference, being pro-active as opposed to the US where views like Skull Pilot's are often heard. The whole "I don't give a fuck, I only care about money, fuck those around me, I don't care" sort of attitude which, I suppose, is the sort of attitude that causes all empires to fall. Money becomes the God.

You can't be proactive for someone else.

And where did I ever say I only care about money?

But I do know that you have a pathological need to control the lives of other people whereas I do nit share that pathology

Yes, you can be proactive for someone else. Peter the Great was proactive for his whole country. That's what great leaders do, they make things better for most people.

I didn't say you did say you only cared about money. I'm basically looking at what you're writing and coming to conclusions.

Pathological need huh?

No, actually I'm a realist. Firstly that the vast majority of people will be controlled. And they can be controlled in a good way or in a bad way. You seem to be willing to let people open to be controlled by bad forces. I'm wary of controlling people, but realize it has to be done. You think you can just descend into anarchy and hey, it'll be okay because that's what libertarianism's all about. But it doesn't work. No one place has ever worked as anarchy, because people will rise up and control.


I also understand that people are thrown into their lives, and the fumble and bumble around and they make lots of mistakes which they regret later on. It's a part of life. However sometimes you get lucky, like being born into a proactive country, and sometimes you get so fucked over, like being poor in the US.

Also I understand that people want to live life with certain things, health, education, jobs, and these are important. They're often more important than freedoms. People like to have freedoms, but freedoms don't put food on the table, don't give them hope for the future.

Where's America's hope right now? It's in politicians who shout the word "hope" as loud as they can and then do nothing about it. The US is losing hope because education sucks (unless you have money), healthcare sucks (unless you have money), jobs suck (unless you have money).... and that's what people end up wanting. They become obsessed with money, money buys you the hope that you need because the govt is so fucking useless in the US that it doesn't offer what people want first and foremost.

and since people can be controlled you might as well be the one controlling them right?

No, this isn't about ME.

This is about SOCIETY. This is why we have DEMOCRACY, democracy is supposed to be the people having a say in their society, making it better for themselves, rather than having a small rich elite surrounding a monarch and getting rich off of corruption. But, the US has turned into George III's elites and poor. The elite being as corrupt as fuck, controlling the politicians, getting favor from the leaders, and the poor getting fucked over.

You have a revolution and then 250 years later it's all gone, nothing left, the democracy, the freedom from the elite, it's all gone up in smoke.... nice one.

Yeah it's all the fault of those evil rich guys

 

[forkup]

I've always viewed the gun problem similarly to the way I view the drug problem. It's an unfortunate situation that is only made more unfortunate when you make the people that want to use these things criminals for doing so. Supply and demand exists regardless of what the law has to say about it. If the consumer wants something bad enough and is willing to pay the price, somebody is willing to break the law to make money from that demand. You will never stop the movement and sale of drugs and guns. All the law can decide is who will make money off that demand. It's either going to be legitimate businesses that employ people and pay taxes, or dangerous and unregulated black market dealers. It seems to me that the only intelligent thing to do is to not make these things illegal so we can at least maintain some control. That comes with its own set of issues to overcome, but I adamantly believe that it's a clear cut greater good kind of situation.

If the consumer wants something bad enough

Here's the problem I think. Sure the consumer will pay if they want something bad enough. On the other hand doing something illegal to get what you want stops a lot of people. Unlike drugs, guns aren't addictive. Make having guns and owning guns illegal there will be less guns. Demand in your equation will lessen considering the threat of some form of punishment.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yeah, right, so six year olds, living in a house with a single mother who works 60 hours a week, in a ghetto surrounded by criminals, drugs, murders are going to go out there and make those changes, right?

Yes, actually when it comes to adults there has to be desire. But the problem is, people are shaped as kids, and they're not being shaped properly, so when they come to be adults and they don't get any help and they've grown up in a shitty area, then what?

All this "only individuals can do anything" lark is rubbish. In fact if you look around the western world you'll see that it's the opposite of what happens. We're not talking about making 100% of people into a massive success, just giving people the chance to get out. But you seem to be saying that we shouldn't give them the chance, that they have to make this chance out of nothing, and break massive trends (the trends being the problems which will lead to an ever worse generation beyond.

Why not?

I grew up with a single mother who was wacko bi polar and have been taking care of myself since I was 8

And the chances are all already there for people willing to take them.

This is the "I can do it, so everyone else can". Sorry, just because it's not hot where you are, doesn't mean there isn't any global warming.

Many people can't just go out into the world and do as you have done, we know this. It's fact. We see it all the time.

Why does the US have ghettos when most other first world countries don't? Yes, they have poorer areas, but they don't have what the US has got. The simple answer is because the US is not proactive. It is a country for the rich, by the rich. The rich control everything. They're happy they don't have to pay much in taxes, they're happy that poor people are killing each other and keeping people in fear, they're happy with the way they control govt, and they tell you how to think, so you just go off and think like that.

There are plenty of reasons why other people struggle. People's brains work differently, people have mental problems (which many states deal with by locking up the people with mental problems, rather than dealing with the problems before they get there), if you have mental problems, your life is going to be much harder in the US than in many other first world countries. Then you have learning difficulties. If you're poor and have learning difficulties, you're fucked. In fact many people are born (we damn you don't have an abortion) and then they're fucked from day one through their life, destined to be in a gang dealing drugs. Wonderful.

But fuck it, who gives a fuck, you did well, so fuck all those who aren't doing well, right?

Yeah I did it so anyone can.
Unlike you I believe people can accomplish things if they choose.
You think everyone needs to be told what to do and how to live the way you think they should live

and tell me again how many trillions of dollars we have spent on welfare programs and the war on poverty?

The help is out there if people want it

And FYI the poor in this country are no worse off than the poor in any other first world industrialized country

Astonishing Numbers: America's Poor Still Live Better Than Most Of The Rest Of Humanity

Where did I say people can accomplish things? Sure they can. People can, but not everyone can. And if you're in the ghettos then the chances are people aren't going to accomplish things. This isn't what I wish, this is the REALITY of parts of the US.

Again, I ask these questions and get vague answers back. Why does the US have the highest prison population in the first world? Why does it have ghettos worse than any country in the first world? There's something wrong in the US and a lot of people have been sucked in and they can't get out, and many of the people do want to get out, but they can't. They can't because they don't have the education, or they committed crimes when they were younger, and people won't give them the chances they need to do better for themselves. Then there are the ones who have grown used to that way of life and can't change.

This isn't about what I think people can or can't do, this is about what is happening in the US right now and which you ignore every time by saying 'well, I grew up with this kind of mother and I did okay", but yu didn't grow up in a fucking ghetto.

So your goal is to have everyone succeed as you define it.

and what is happening in the US right now is that the poor are no worse off than they would be in most other industrialized countries

No, it's not.

You have different types of goals. One is to reduce the bad statistics and increase the good. Reduce the crime, reduce the gangs, reduce the problems, and try and improve things. There will be people who don't improve, and there will be others who do. The hope is that through successive generations things get better, not worse as is currently happening.

Another is to make society a better place for everyone, not just for the elite, but for all people. Education that works for all the people. A political system that works for all the people. Healthcare that works for all the people. So that the people are running the country, not the elite.

The US has a basement that is full of dirt, slime and rats, much worse than other first world countries. Yes, other first world countries aren't perfect either, but they're BETTER.

Hey, I've been to a lot of First World countries, 3/4 of First world Countries in Europe, and the worst city I've found in Europe for fear was Bucharest, there are cities where you see problems that you think shouldn't happen, and that these countries should be more proactive too, but compared to US cities like DC, which has large areas that are a dump. When Europeans go to US cities they have to be taught how to think in those cities. Going from Canada to the US you suddenly have to go back into careful wary mode because US cities are much more dangerous, and much more horrible places where the ghettos are spilling out into the main parts of the city.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yes, that's the difference, being pro-active as opposed to the US where views like Skull Pilot's are often heard. The whole "I don't give a fuck, I only care about money, fuck those around me, I don't care" sort of attitude which, I suppose, is the sort of attitude that causes all empires to fall. Money becomes the God.

You can't be proactive for someone else.

And where did I ever say I only care about money?

But I do know that you have a pathological need to control the lives of other people whereas I do nit share that pathology

Yes, you can be proactive for someone else. Peter the Great was proactive for his whole country. That's what great leaders do, they make things better for most people.

I didn't say you did say you only cared about money. I'm basically looking at what you're writing and coming to conclusions.

Pathological need huh?

No, actually I'm a realist. Firstly that the vast majority of people will be controlled. And they can be controlled in a good way or in a bad way. You seem to be willing to let people open to be controlled by bad forces. I'm wary of controlling people, but realize it has to be done. You think you can just descend into anarchy and hey, it'll be okay because that's what libertarianism's all about. But it doesn't work. No one place has ever worked as anarchy, because people will rise up and control.


I also understand that people are thrown into their lives, and the fumble and bumble around and they make lots of mistakes which they regret later on. It's a part of life. However sometimes you get lucky, like being born into a proactive country, and sometimes you get so fucked over, like being poor in the US.

Also I understand that people want to live life with certain things, health, education, jobs, and these are important. They're often more important than freedoms. People like to have freedoms, but freedoms don't put food on the table, don't give them hope for the future.

Where's America's hope right now? It's in politicians who shout the word "hope" as loud as they can and then do nothing about it. The US is losing hope because education sucks (unless you have money), healthcare sucks (unless you have money), jobs suck (unless you have money).... and that's what people end up wanting. They become obsessed with money, money buys you the hope that you need because the govt is so fucking useless in the US that it doesn't offer what people want first and foremost.

and since people can be controlled you might as well be the one controlling them right?

No, this isn't about ME.

This is about SOCIETY. This is why we have DEMOCRACY, democracy is supposed to be the people having a say in their society, making it better for themselves, rather than having a small rich elite surrounding a monarch and getting rich off of corruption. But, the US has turned into George III's elites and poor. The elite being as corrupt as fuck, controlling the politicians, getting favor from the leaders, and the poor getting fucked over.

You have a revolution and then 250 years later it's all gone, nothing left, the democracy, the freedom from the elite, it's all gone up in smoke.... nice one.

Yeah it's all the fault of those evil rich guys

There are lots of problems, one of the problems is the US lets the rich control way too much. It's a problem in other countries too, the UK also has a Rupert Murdoch problem.

But can you honestly tell me that the rich don't control most of the US?

 

[bitter clinging swiftie]

one other thing you are forgetting is that a firearm is a very simple device....any jimmyearl with some metal, a bench lathe and 12 ton press and some know how, can manufacture a pretty decent quality firarm in his garage...google "khyber pass copy"

You can make drugs in your house. You can grow piot.

true, thats why the war on drugs is a losing battle, or at least part of the reason

 

[Skull Pilot]

Why not?

I grew up with a single mother who was wacko bi polar and have been taking care of myself since I was 8

And the chances are all already there for people willing to take them.

This is the "I can do it, so everyone else can". Sorry, just because it's not hot where you are, doesn't mean there isn't any global warming.

Many people can't just go out into the world and do as you have done, we know this. It's fact. We see it all the time.

Why does the US have ghettos when most other first world countries don't? Yes, they have poorer areas, but they don't have what the US has got. The simple answer is because the US is not proactive. It is a country for the rich, by the rich. The rich control everything. They're happy they don't have to pay much in taxes, they're happy that poor people are killing each other and keeping people in fear, they're happy with the way they control govt, and they tell you how to think, so you just go off and think like that.

There are plenty of reasons why other people struggle. People's brains work differently, people have mental problems (which many states deal with by locking up the people with mental problems, rather than dealing with the problems before they get there), if you have mental problems, your life is going to be much harder in the US than in many other first world countries. Then you have learning difficulties. If you're poor and have learning difficulties, you're fucked. In fact many people are born (we damn you don't have an abortion) and then they're fucked from day one through their life, destined to be in a gang dealing drugs. Wonderful.

But fuck it, who gives a fuck, you did well, so fuck all those who aren't doing well, right?

Yeah I did it so anyone can.
Unlike you I believe people can accomplish things if they choose.
You think everyone needs to be told what to do and how to live the way you think they should live

and tell me again how many trillions of dollars we have spent on welfare programs and the war on poverty?

The help is out there if people want it

And FYI the poor in this country are no worse off than the poor in any other first world industrialized country

Astonishing Numbers: America's Poor Still Live Better Than Most Of The Rest Of Humanity

Where did I say people can accomplish things? Sure they can. People can, but not everyone can. And if you're in the ghettos then the chances are people aren't going to accomplish things. This isn't what I wish, this is the REALITY of parts of the US.

Again, I ask these questions and get vague answers back. Why does the US have the highest prison population in the first world? Why does it have ghettos worse than any country in the first world? There's something wrong in the US and a lot of people have been sucked in and they can't get out, and many of the people do want to get out, but they can't. They can't because they don't have the education, or they committed crimes when they were younger, and people won't give them the chances they need to do better for themselves. Then there are the ones who have grown used to that way of life and can't change.

This isn't about what I think people can or can't do, this is about what is happening in the US right now and which you ignore every time by saying 'well, I grew up with this kind of mother and I did okay", but yu didn't grow up in a fucking ghetto.

So your goal is to have everyone succeed as you define it.

and what is happening in the US right now is that the poor are no worse off than they would be in most other industrialized countries

No, it's not.

You have different types of goals. One is to reduce the bad statistics and increase the good. Reduce the crime, reduce the gangs, reduce the problems, and try and improve things. There will be people who don't improve, and there will be others who do. The hope is that through successive generations things get better, not worse as is currently happening.

Another is to make society a better place for everyone, not just for the elite, but for all people. Education that works for all the people. A political system that works for all the people. Healthcare that works for all the people. So that the people are running the country, not the elite.

The US has a basement that is full of dirt, slime and rats, much worse than other first world countries. Yes, other first world countries aren't perfect either, but they're BETTER.

Hey, I've been to a lot of First World countries, 3/4 of First world Countries in Europe, and the worst city I've found in Europe for fear was Bucharest, there are cities where you see problems that you think shouldn't happen, and that these countries should be more proactive too, but compared to US cities like DC, which has large areas that are a dump. When Europeans go to US cities they have to be taught how to think in those cities. Going from Canada to the US you suddenly have to go back into careful wary mode because US cities are much more dangerous, and much more horrible places where the ghettos are spilling out into the main parts of the city.

Sorry but no it's not much worse than other countries.

Just because you've been somewhere doesn't mean you know all the ins and outs of their welfare system or the actual situation of their poor.

and our problems are small areas mostly urban in much larger states it's just that some of our states are larger than many European countries

and in case you haven't noticed our crime rates are steadily decreasing while violent crime in Europe is increasing

 

[Skull Pilot]

You can't be proactive for someone else.

And where did I ever say I only care about money?

But I do know that you have a pathological need to control the lives of other people whereas I do nit share that pathology

Yes, you can be proactive for someone else. Peter the Great was proactive for his whole country. That's what great leaders do, they make things better for most people.

I didn't say you did say you only cared about money. I'm basically looking at what you're writing and coming to conclusions.

Pathological need huh?

No, actually I'm a realist. Firstly that the vast majority of people will be controlled. And they can be controlled in a good way or in a bad way. You seem to be willing to let people open to be controlled by bad forces. I'm wary of controlling people, but realize it has to be done. You think you can just descend into anarchy and hey, it'll be okay because that's what libertarianism's all about. But it doesn't work. No one place has ever worked as anarchy, because people will rise up and control.


I also understand that people are thrown into their lives, and the fumble and bumble around and they make lots of mistakes which they regret later on. It's a part of life. However sometimes you get lucky, like being born into a proactive country, and sometimes you get so fucked over, like being poor in the US.

Also I understand that people want to live life with certain things, health, education, jobs, and these are important. They're often more important than freedoms. People like to have freedoms, but freedoms don't put food on the table, don't give them hope for the future.

Where's America's hope right now? It's in politicians who shout the word "hope" as loud as they can and then do nothing about it. The US is losing hope because education sucks (unless you have money), healthcare sucks (unless you have money), jobs suck (unless you have money).... and that's what people end up wanting. They become obsessed with money, money buys you the hope that you need because the govt is so fucking useless in the US that it doesn't offer what people want first and foremost.

and since people can be controlled you might as well be the one controlling them right?

No, this isn't about ME.

This is about SOCIETY. This is why we have DEMOCRACY, democracy is supposed to be the people having a say in their society, making it better for themselves, rather than having a small rich elite surrounding a monarch and getting rich off of corruption. But, the US has turned into George III's elites and poor. The elite being as corrupt as fuck, controlling the politicians, getting favor from the leaders, and the poor getting fucked over.

You have a revolution and then 250 years later it's all gone, nothing left, the democracy, the freedom from the elite, it's all gone up in smoke.... nice one.

Yeah it's all the fault of those evil rich guys

There are lots of problems, one of the problems is the US lets the rich control way too much. It's a problem in other countries too, the UK also has a Rupert Murdoch problem.

But can you honestly tell me that the rich don't control most of the US?

And you actually think that it's ever been different?

But in reality what any rich person does or doesn't do has very little effect on the average person's life.

 

[frigidweirdo]

This is the "I can do it, so everyone else can". Sorry, just because it's not hot where you are, doesn't mean there isn't any global warming.

Many people can't just go out into the world and do as you have done, we know this. It's fact. We see it all the time.

Why does the US have ghettos when most other first world countries don't? Yes, they have poorer areas, but they don't have what the US has got. The simple answer is because the US is not proactive. It is a country for the rich, by the rich. The rich control everything. They're happy they don't have to pay much in taxes, they're happy that poor people are killing each other and keeping people in fear, they're happy with the way they control govt, and they tell you how to think, so you just go off and think like that.

There are plenty of reasons why other people struggle. People's brains work differently, people have mental problems (which many states deal with by locking up the people with mental problems, rather than dealing with the problems before they get there), if you have mental problems, your life is going to be much harder in the US than in many other first world countries. Then you have learning difficulties. If you're poor and have learning difficulties, you're fucked. In fact many people are born (we damn you don't have an abortion) and then they're fucked from day one through their life, destined to be in a gang dealing drugs. Wonderful.

But fuck it, who gives a fuck, you did well, so fuck all those who aren't doing well, right?

Yeah I did it so anyone can.
Unlike you I believe people can accomplish things if they choose.
You think everyone needs to be told what to do and how to live the way you think they should live

and tell me again how many trillions of dollars we have spent on welfare programs and the war on poverty?

The help is out there if people want it

And FYI the poor in this country are no worse off than the poor in any other first world industrialized country

Astonishing Numbers: America's Poor Still Live Better Than Most Of The Rest Of Humanity

Where did I say people can accomplish things? Sure they can. People can, but not everyone can. And if you're in the ghettos then the chances are people aren't going to accomplish things. This isn't what I wish, this is the REALITY of parts of the US.

Again, I ask these questions and get vague answers back. Why does the US have the highest prison population in the first world? Why does it have ghettos worse than any country in the first world? There's something wrong in the US and a lot of people have been sucked in and they can't get out, and many of the people do want to get out, but they can't. They can't because they don't have the education, or they committed crimes when they were younger, and people won't give them the chances they need to do better for themselves. Then there are the ones who have grown used to that way of life and can't change.

This isn't about what I think people can or can't do, this is about what is happening in the US right now and which you ignore every time by saying 'well, I grew up with this kind of mother and I did okay", but yu didn't grow up in a fucking ghetto.

So your goal is to have everyone succeed as you define it.

and what is happening in the US right now is that the poor are no worse off than they would be in most other industrialized countries

No, it's not.

You have different types of goals. One is to reduce the bad statistics and increase the good. Reduce the crime, reduce the gangs, reduce the problems, and try and improve things. There will be people who don't improve, and there will be others who do. The hope is that through successive generations things get better, not worse as is currently happening.

Another is to make society a better place for everyone, not just for the elite, but for all people. Education that works for all the people. A political system that works for all the people. Healthcare that works for all the people. So that the people are running the country, not the elite.

The US has a basement that is full of dirt, slime and rats, much worse than other first world countries. Yes, other first world countries aren't perfect either, but they're BETTER.

Hey, I've been to a lot of First World countries, 3/4 of First world Countries in Europe, and the worst city I've found in Europe for fear was Bucharest, there are cities where you see problems that you think shouldn't happen, and that these countries should be more proactive too, but compared to US cities like DC, which has large areas that are a dump. When Europeans go to US cities they have to be taught how to think in those cities. Going from Canada to the US you suddenly have to go back into careful wary mode because US cities are much more dangerous, and much more horrible places where the ghettos are spilling out into the main parts of the city.

Sorry but no it's not much worse than other countries.

Just because you've been somewhere doesn't mean you know all the ins and outs of their welfare system or the actual situation of their poor.

and our problems are small areas mostly urban in much larger states it's just that some of our states are larger than many European countries

and in case you haven't noticed our crime rates are steadily decreasing while violent crime in Europe is increasing

Sorry, but it is. And this is based on experience.

I don't know your experiences outside of the US, but I'm going to guess they aren't that extensive.

No, just going somewhere doesn't make you an expert of their systems. However I've lived in 5 European countries. I lived in one of the most foreign of German cities where Russians (who were considered ethnic Germans and given German passports even when they couldn't speak German, yet Turks who were third or fourth generation couldn't get them) would hang out drinking vodka from the government purse because they couldn't or wouldn't get jobs.

Yes, some states are larger in size than European states, but no state is anywhere near the size of France, Germany or the UK. The UK is 4/5ths the size of Idaho, and yet has a population that is massively bigger. Can you imagine 65 million people in Idaho?

And yes, a lot of the US's problems are concentrated in larger cities. However there are only like 2 or 3 cities in the US over the size of 250,000 that have murder rates lower than the murder rates of most western European countries.

Violent crime goes up and down in Europe, nothing really special

Here's the UK.

The line at the top shows violent crime going down.
Police recorded crime has gone up recently, but that's to be expected. It's curious that violent crime seems to go down during recessions, it's when you come out of recessions and people go out more, spend more, etc that crime levels increase.

US violent crime dropped from 500 per 100,000 in 2000 to 400 in 2010 and started rising in 2015 from the statistics that I have, which would be in line with what is happening in the UK. I don't see the US having violent crime dropping and Europe's rising.

Sure, if you mess around with the statistics you can probably make them say that, but it would be dishonest. If you understand the statistics you'd see that it's difficult to say what you're trying to make them say.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yes, you can be proactive for someone else. Peter the Great was proactive for his whole country. That's what great leaders do, they make things better for most people.

I didn't say you did say you only cared about money. I'm basically looking at what you're writing and coming to conclusions.

Pathological need huh?

No, actually I'm a realist. Firstly that the vast majority of people will be controlled. And they can be controlled in a good way or in a bad way. You seem to be willing to let people open to be controlled by bad forces. I'm wary of controlling people, but realize it has to be done. You think you can just descend into anarchy and hey, it'll be okay because that's what libertarianism's all about. But it doesn't work. No one place has ever worked as anarchy, because people will rise up and control.


I also understand that people are thrown into their lives, and the fumble and bumble around and they make lots of mistakes which they regret later on. It's a part of life. However sometimes you get lucky, like being born into a proactive country, and sometimes you get so fucked over, like being poor in the US.

Also I understand that people want to live life with certain things, health, education, jobs, and these are important. They're often more important than freedoms. People like to have freedoms, but freedoms don't put food on the table, don't give them hope for the future.

Where's America's hope right now? It's in politicians who shout the word "hope" as loud as they can and then do nothing about it. The US is losing hope because education sucks (unless you have money), healthcare sucks (unless you have money), jobs suck (unless you have money).... and that's what people end up wanting. They become obsessed with money, money buys you the hope that you need because the govt is so fucking useless in the US that it doesn't offer what people want first and foremost.

and since people can be controlled you might as well be the one controlling them right?

No, this isn't about ME.

This is about SOCIETY. This is why we have DEMOCRACY, democracy is supposed to be the people having a say in their society, making it better for themselves, rather than having a small rich elite surrounding a monarch and getting rich off of corruption. But, the US has turned into George III's elites and poor. The elite being as corrupt as fuck, controlling the politicians, getting favor from the leaders, and the poor getting fucked over.

You have a revolution and then 250 years later it's all gone, nothing left, the democracy, the freedom from the elite, it's all gone up in smoke.... nice one.

Yeah it's all the fault of those evil rich guys

There are lots of problems, one of the problems is the US lets the rich control way too much. It's a problem in other countries too, the UK also has a Rupert Murdoch problem.

But can you honestly tell me that the rich don't control most of the US?

And you actually think that it's ever been different?

But in reality what any rich person does or doesn't do has very little effect on the average person's life.

Oh, I know it's been different. Way back when before the working classes had the vote, it was very different. Things have changed in the last 100 years massively. The US, however, hasn't changed as much as some other countries. The US is still clinging to the past, other countries have moved forwards.

 

[skookerasbil]

You are wrong.

Number one, there is no "gun problem", so it's a waste to compare it to drugs.

Yeah there's no "gun problem". We don't have James Holmses and Jared Loughners and Adam Lanzas at all. These are all staged in New Mexico.

What a self-delusional asshole. We are a gun-OBSESSED nation. We're a culture of violence and death and with it paramiliary cops. It's on every TV, in every movie theater (sometimes even live) and in every other medium. But we have "no gun problem". What a dipshit.

You do have a point that it's not comparable to drugs. Nobody takes a bag of coke into a movie theater and overdoses a bunch of strangers. So there's that.

No, there is not a "gun problem". There is a "violence problem" though.

That's what I just posted. We are a culture of murder and death and our instrument of choice happens to be guns. That's undeniable. If we were a sword culture that worshiped murder and death, then we'd have a "sword problem". Same thing.

To expand the same thought, it's also a masculinity problem. Without Googling into history name me five mass shooters who were female. Hell, name even one.

By that I mean that there is a growing trend of "numbness" towards violence, a "disassociation" from what one is doing, and how it affects, and effects others. (If you are unclear about the difference between affect, and effect, please look them up, it's important).

Again, you're echoing the same thing I noted. Exactly right --- if this 'numbness' were not in place it would be far more difficult to walk into a shopping mall and start picking off random targets. I have no need to "look it up", it's exactly what I've been pointing out since literally the day I joined this site, and before; that this isn't a legislative issue, it's a spiritualistic one. A direct result of our social values.

--- Which I illustrated in pointing out media glorification of violence. That was the whole point of that citation.

Hmmm...........this guy may have something here. Maybe we should ban nails and glass.

 

[Vandalshandle]

I've always viewed the gun problem similarly to the way I view the drug problem. It's an unfortunate situation that is only made more unfortunate when you make the people that want to use these things criminals for doing so. Supply and demand exists regardless of what the law has to say about it. If the consumer wants something bad enough and is willing to pay the price, somebody is willing to break the law to make money from that demand. You will never stop the movement and sale of drugs and guns. All the law can decide is who will make money off that demand. It's either going to be legitimate businesses that employ people and pay taxes, or dangerous and unregulated black market dealers. It seems to me that the only intelligent thing to do is to not make these things illegal so we can at least maintain some control. That comes with its own set of issues to overcome, but I adamantly believe that it's a clear cut greater good kind of situation.

By your logic, we might as well legalize grenades and land mines to the general public.

 

[skookerasbil]

https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/21760-harvard-gun-control-study-destroys-gun-control-agenda

 

[yiostheoy]

I've always viewed the gun problem similarly to the way I view the drug problem. It's an unfortunate situation that is only made more unfortunate when you make the people that want to use these things criminals for doing so. Supply and demand exists regardless of what the law has to say about it. If the consumer wants something bad enough and is willing to pay the price, somebody is willing to break the law to make money from that demand. You will never stop the movement and sale of drugs and guns. All the law can decide is who will make money off that demand. It's either going to be legitimate businesses that employ people and pay taxes, or dangerous and unregulated black market dealers. It seems to me that the only intelligent thing to do is to not make these things illegal so we can at least maintain some control. That comes with its own set of issues to overcome, but I adamantly believe that it's a clear cut greater good kind of situation.

By your logic, we might as well legalize grenades and land mines to the general public.

The SCUTUS gets around that problem by calling these "destructive devices" which are NOT covered by the 2nd Amendment.

Same with sawed off shotguns.

 

[skookerasbil]

and since people can be controlled you might as well be the one controlling them right?

No, this isn't about ME.

This is about SOCIETY. This is why we have DEMOCRACY, democracy is supposed to be the people having a say in their society, making it better for themselves, rather than having a small rich elite surrounding a monarch and getting rich off of corruption. But, the US has turned into George III's elites and poor. The elite being as corrupt as fuck, controlling the politicians, getting favor from the leaders, and the poor getting fucked over.

You have a revolution and then 250 years later it's all gone, nothing left, the democracy, the freedom from the elite, it's all gone up in smoke.... nice one.

Yeah it's all the fault of those evil rich guys

There are lots of problems, one of the problems is the US lets the rich control way too much. It's a problem in other countries too, the UK also has a Rupert Murdoch problem.

But can you honestly tell me that the rich don't control most of the US?

And you actually think that it's ever been different?

But in reality what any rich person does or doesn't do has very little effect on the average person's life.

Oh, I know it's been different. Way back when before the working classes had the vote, it was very different. Things have changed in the last 100 years massively. The US, however, hasn't changed as much as some other countries. The US is still clinging to the past, other countries have moved forwards.

s0n........whistling past the graveyard!! Gun grabbing has never been more unpopular in this country. Oh......and there is zero % chance of the USA going the UK route on guns.

 

[frigidweirdo]

No, this isn't about ME.

This is about SOCIETY. This is why we have DEMOCRACY, democracy is supposed to be the people having a say in their society, making it better for themselves, rather than having a small rich elite surrounding a monarch and getting rich off of corruption. But, the US has turned into George III's elites and poor. The elite being as corrupt as fuck, controlling the politicians, getting favor from the leaders, and the poor getting fucked over.

You have a revolution and then 250 years later it's all gone, nothing left, the democracy, the freedom from the elite, it's all gone up in smoke.... nice one.

Yeah it's all the fault of those evil rich guys

There are lots of problems, one of the problems is the US lets the rich control way too much. It's a problem in other countries too, the UK also has a Rupert Murdoch problem.

But can you honestly tell me that the rich don't control most of the US?

And you actually think that it's ever been different?

But in reality what any rich person does or doesn't do has very little effect on the average person's life.

Oh, I know it's been different. Way back when before the working classes had the vote, it was very different. Things have changed in the last 100 years massively. The US, however, hasn't changed as much as some other countries. The US is still clinging to the past, other countries have moved forwards.

s0n........whistling past the graveyard!! Gun grabbing has never been more unpopular in this country. Oh......and there is zero % chance of the USA going the UK route on guns.

I'm sorry, what does this have to do with what I said?

 

[JBond]

Excuse the hell out of me. I voted for the republican party, sorry kids. I have seen the flip side of this, and guns people scare the holy hell out of me. And thugs with guns scare me even more, and this pro gun stuff just feeds into those bad actors in the shadows, the people you fear the most. If we just got rid off the damned things, most of you wouldn't be so damned paranoid about protecting yourselves, either.

I will stick with the Constitution over your irrational fear. I am curious how you would attempt to defend your self or a loved one if a group of thugs broke into your home. I am not paranoid, I am prepared. A couple of home invasions has taught me the value of preparation.

 

[JBond]

and since people can be controlled you might as well be the one controlling them right?

No, this isn't about ME.

This is about SOCIETY. This is why we have DEMOCRACY, democracy is supposed to be the people having a say in their society, making it better for themselves, rather than having a small rich elite surrounding a monarch and getting rich off of corruption. But, the US has turned into George III's elites and poor. The elite being as corrupt as fuck, controlling the politicians, getting favor from the leaders, and the poor getting fucked over.

You have a revolution and then 250 years later it's all gone, nothing left, the democracy, the freedom from the elite, it's all gone up in smoke.... nice one.

Yeah it's all the fault of those evil rich guys

There are lots of problems, one of the problems is the US lets the rich control way too much. It's a problem in other countries too, the UK also has a Rupert Murdoch problem.

But can you honestly tell me that the rich don't control most of the US?

And you actually think that it's ever been different?

But in reality what any rich person does or doesn't do has very little effect on the average person's life.

Oh, I know it's been different. Way back when before the working classes had the vote, it was very different. Things have changed in the last 100 years massively. The US, however, hasn't changed as much as some other countries. The US is still clinging to the past, other countries have moved forwards.

How is the US clinging to the past? What are they clinging too? Or are you simply stealing an arrogant Obama line of crap?

 

[bitter clinging swiftie]

I've always viewed the gun problem similarly to the way I view the drug problem. It's an unfortunate situation that is only made more unfortunate when you make the people that want to use these things criminals for doing so. Supply and demand exists regardless of what the law has to say about it. If the consumer wants something bad enough and is willing to pay the price, somebody is willing to break the law to make money from that demand. You will never stop the movement and sale of drugs and guns. All the law can decide is who will make money off that demand. It's either going to be legitimate businesses that employ people and pay taxes, or dangerous and unregulated black market dealers. It seems to me that the only intelligent thing to do is to not make these things illegal so we can at least maintain some control. That comes with its own set of issues to overcome, but I adamantly believe that it's a clear cut greater good kind of situation.

By your logic, we might as well legalize grenades and land mines to the general public.

The SCUTUS gets around that problem by calling these "destructive devices" which are NOT covered by the 2nd Amendment.

Same with sawed off shotguns.

the sawed off shotgun thing is a result of the 1939 US vs Miller ruling....they said that a sawed off has no militia use and therefore could be banned