Happy Birthday, Jefferson Davis

[KevinWestern]

The Civil War was fought because the South seceeded from the union. Had the south not seceeded but instead did not oppose the tariffs would there have been a civil war over slavery?

No.

I believe the South seceded from the Union largely in part because they felt that the institution of slavery could be abolished via the Federal Government...

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Jefferson Davis was born June 3, 1808, and he was the first and only President of the Confederate States of America. He believed in peace, free trade, and the American idea of self-government.

"All we ask is to be let alone." - Jefferson Davis

He believed in peace except for that whole Civil War thing.

He believed in free trade -- of slaves.

And he believed in the American idea of self-government, except for "those" African descendants.

Fuck his filthy memory.

A war started by Lincoln.

Yes, he practiced slavery, which really has little to do with one's position on free trade.

Yes, he believed in the America idea of self-government. Thomas Jefferson did as well, and I have heard rumors that he might have been a slaveowner as well.

I doubt you say fuck the "filthy" memory of the slave-owning colonists who seceded from the British Empire.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Kevin – at the time of the American Revolution, the abolition of slavery was not a key driving issue of the war, unfortunately. Both the British Empire and the Colonists supported slavery, so it's really a moot point. It's not hypocrisy at all.

If the British Empire supported the abolition of slaves, and that was one of the key reasons that the Colonists wanted independence, then perhaps there would be some hypocrisy present...

Surely slavery itself is the crime, and not wanting to secede to protect slavery? The fact is that the colonists practiced slavery, regardless of whether that was one of the issues that seceded from the British Empire over. Furthermore, the British offered any slave who joined them their freedom. So perhaps Britain really did have the moral high ground against the colonists?

I don't congratulate the colonists for practicing slavery. All I'm saying is that because both the Colonists and the British Empire - at that time - practiced slavery (and the fact that it was not a key driver in the decision to declare independence) I think it's a totally moot point, period. The Colonists also didn't allow women to vote, either, but again when discussing the American Revolution that is an irrelevant point because it was not what they were fighting for at the time.

And if you don't believe that slavery was a driver behind the Civil War - fine - but I do, and also believe that the North was the "side" that supported/was capable of abolishing it. Therefore I "side" with the north in this thread, and will state that I'm glad they won the battle (and not the South) because it resulted in the abrupt end to slavery.

You bring up some interesting points of information about Lincoln and his view towards abolitionism I will research on my own, however... so thank you.

I don't think it necessarily matters what they seceded over. Either the right to secession exists, or it doesn't.

I actually have no problem saying that slavery was an issue behind the south's decision to secede. Many of the states said it themselves. My position is that it's not the only issue that drove them to it.

 

[KevinWestern]

Surely slavery itself is the crime, and not wanting to secede to protect slavery? The fact is that the colonists practiced slavery, regardless of whether that was one of the issues that seceded from the British Empire over. Furthermore, the British offered any slave who joined them their freedom. So perhaps Britain really did have the moral high ground against the colonists?

I don't congratulate the colonists for practicing slavery. All I'm saying is that because both the Colonists and the British Empire - at that time - practiced slavery (and the fact that it was not a key driver in the decision to declare independence) I think it's a totally moot point, period. The Colonists also didn't allow women to vote, either, but again when discussing the American Revolution that is an irrelevant point because it was not what they were fighting for at the time.

And if you don't believe that slavery was a driver behind the Civil War - fine - but I do, and also believe that the North was the "side" that supported/was capable of abolishing it. Therefore I "side" with the north in this thread, and will state that I'm glad they won the battle (and not the South) because it resulted in the abrupt end to slavery.

You bring up some interesting points of information about Lincoln and his view towards abolitionism I will research on my own, however... so thank you.

I don't think it necessarily matters what they seceded over. Either the right to secession exists, or it doesn't.

I actually have no problem saying that slavery was an issue behind the south's decision to secede. Many of the states said it themselves. My position is that it's not the only issue that drove them to it.

If the unfair taxation was the only reason the Southern states left the Union, than I’d have no problem either (a) supporting their stance (the fight for fairness), or at least (b) approaching the Civil War from a neutral viewpoint. However, because upholding the institution of slavery was one of the core reasons the Southern States seceded, I approach the civil war with a view that the North held the higher moral ground with regards to this particular conflict.

The South didn’t want to lose their right to own slaves and left the Union as a result…. I just can’t support that stance to any degree.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

And slavery!

Yes, the Confederacy practiced slavery, as did the Union. Neither side has the moral high ground on that issue.

Are you serious?! The union, led by Abraham Lincoln and 350,000 dead union soldiers don't have the moral high ground on the issue of slavery? I realize that not everyone in the north was a saint that went off to war to end the suffering of the black man but that is what it was all about and I think the USA can most assuredly claim the moral high ground over the traitors from the CSA.

Ever read the emancipation proclamation? Who did Lincoln free?

One more thing Lincoln wanted to make slavery Constitutional

Lincoln's slavery forever amendment read as follows:

"No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State. (See U.S. House of Representatives, 106th Congress, 2nd Session, The Constitution of the United States of America: Unratified Amendments, Doc. No. 106-214).

The Lincoln Cult's Latest Cover-Up by Thomas DiLorenzo

Lincoln was a racist

The Great Emancipator Abraham Lincoln and the Issue of Race

 

[NLT]

Jefferson Davis was born June 3, 1808, and he was the first and only President of the Confederate States of America. He believed in peace, free trade, and the American idea of self-government.

"All we ask is to be let alone." - Jefferson Davis

He believed in peace except for that whole Civil War thing.

He believed in free trade -- of slaves.

And he believed in the American idea of self-government, except for "those" African descendants.

Fuck his filthy memory.

A war started by Lincoln.

Yes, he practiced slavery, which really has little to do with one's position on free trade.

Yes, he believed in the America idea of self-government. Thomas Jefferson did as well, and I have heard rumors that he might have been a slaveowner as well.

I doubt you say fuck the "filthy" memory of the slave-owning colonists who seceded from the British Empire.

Lincoln was a cadet at the citadel in charleston and fired on Ft Sumter?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

He believed in peace except for that whole Civil War thing.

He believed in free trade -- of slaves.

And he believed in the American idea of self-government, except for "those" African descendants.

Fuck his filthy memory.

A war started by Lincoln.

Yes, he practiced slavery, which really has little to do with one's position on free trade.

Yes, he believed in the America idea of self-government. Thomas Jefferson did as well, and I have heard rumors that he might have been a slaveowner as well.

I doubt you say fuck the "filthy" memory of the slave-owning colonists who seceded from the British Empire.

Lincoln was a cadet at the citadel in charleston and fired on Ft Sumter?

Lincoln sent reinforcements to Sumter

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

He believed in peace except for that whole Civil War thing.

He believed in free trade -- of slaves.

And he believed in the American idea of self-government, except for "those" African descendants.

Fuck his filthy memory.

A war started by Lincoln.

Yes, he practiced slavery, which really has little to do with one's position on free trade.

Yes, he believed in the America idea of self-government. Thomas Jefferson did as well, and I have heard rumors that he might have been a slaveowner as well.

I doubt you say fuck the "filthy" memory of the slave-owning colonists who seceded from the British Empire.

Lincoln was a cadet at the citadel in charleston and fired on Ft Sumter?

I've already explained in this thread how it was Lincoln who started the war. You are, of course, free to disagree with my reasoning.

 

[Unkotare]

... Then he also had the power to do it in the border states, as Commander-in-Chief.

Only in those states in open rebellion against the Union during a time of war. Come on, you must know this.

If that were the case then by what right did he exercise his "power" as "Commander-in-Chief" to suspend habeas corpus in the north, imprison hundreds of northern citizens, shut down opposition newspapers, and deport a northern Democratic Congressman from Ohio?

Trying to change the subject proves you realize you were wrong.

 

[NLT]

Jefferson Davis was born June 3, 1808, and he was the first and only President of the Confederate States of America. He believed in peace, free trade, and the American idea of self-government.

"All we ask is to be let alone." - Jefferson Davis

 

[Sallow]

No answer?

I'll help you:



Oh, wait, that didn't help you. It just proved my point.

Sorry! My bad!

That absolutely does not give states rights to leave the Union..

And there are several clauses that keep them from doing so as well..





You really should read this thing before you start your bullshit.

No, you should. There's absolutely nothing there that forbids a state from seceding. In fact, many of the Founders and Framers predicted that it would eventually happen.

Maybe I posted to much for you to absorb in one chunk..because you obviously didn't read it.

I will break it down for you..

Section 10 - Powers prohibited of States

This is a Prohibition set by the constitution on the powers of the state.

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money;

This part of the clause prohibits (Remember that word?) states from entering into any groupings of states outside what the Constitution defines as the "United" States. Conferation should have been a good clue as to why FORMING A CONFEDERATION OF STATES was prohibited.

They also can't coin money..or do lots of other things.

Like form their own government on US territory..

It's in English..so I don't get why you didn't understand it.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Only in those states in open rebellion against the Union during a time of war. Come on, you must know this.

If that were the case then by what right did he exercise his "power" as "Commander-in-Chief" to suspend habeas corpus in the north, imprison hundreds of northern citizens, shut down opposition newspapers, and deport a northern Democratic Congressman from Ohio?

Trying to change the subject proves you realize you were wrong.

I didn't change the subject.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

That absolutely does not give states rights to leave the Union..

And there are several clauses that keep them from doing so as well..





You really should read this thing before you start your bullshit.

No, you should. There's absolutely nothing there that forbids a state from seceding. In fact, many of the Founders and Framers predicted that it would eventually happen.

Maybe I posted to much for you to absorb in one chunk..because you obviously didn't read it.

I will break it down for you..

Section 10 - Powers prohibited of States

This is a Prohibition set by the constitution on the powers of the state.

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money;

This part of the clause prohibits (Remember that word?) states from entering into any groupings of states outside what the Constitution defines as the "United" States. Conferation should have been a good clue as to why FORMING A CONFEDERATION OF STATES was prohibited.

They also can't coin money..or do lots of other things.

Like form their own government on US territory..

It's in English..so I don't get why you didn't understand it.

They couldn't form a confederation while still a part of the Union, but once they seceded, which is not prohibited in the Constitution, they were no longer part of the Union and the Constitution no longer applied.

 

[JWBooth]

You might note that there were 5 Union states that all had chattel slavery throughout the war: Maryland, Delaware, West Virginia, Kentucky, and Missouri. The Federal capitol in Washington City had slavery when the war began, but abolished it in 1862...and appropriated $600,000 to repatriate their slaves back to Africa. Adjusted for inflation, that's about $60,000,000 in today's money.

Practically every officer in the Union army had servants. Grant was a slave owner through his wife, Julia Dent Grant. When Richmond fell, Julia was the only person allowed to be escorted through the streets of Richmond by her slaves and it was said that she openly flaunted it. The Grants did not emancipate their slaves until the ratification of the 13th Amendment in December 1865.

Early in the war, Grant gave a newspaper interview in which he said, "If I thought this war was to abolish slavery, I would resign my commission and offer my sword to the other side." Some Progressive historians try to claim that his enemies made that up, but that's false. It is a documented quote.

Union Gen. J.G. Foster was quite noted for his harem filled with "sable beauty".

The North was so desperate to keep their Southern tariff money coming in that they offered the Corwin Amendment, which would have allowed the slave states to keep their slaves and promised that the Federal government would never bother slavery again if they would just return to the Union. It was not ratified only because the representatives of the Southern states were no longer present in Congress to vote on it. The Corwin Amendment was not sunsetted and technically remains open for ratification to this day, although it's been pretty much superseded by the 13th Amendment. The Corwin Amendment was supported by...Abraham Lincoln!

Some of the most ardent Unionists in loyalist East Tennessee were the largest slaveholders in that region. When Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation, he exempted certain areas of Louisiana because one of his close friends owned a big sugar cane plantation there.

What made slavery such an issue was the fact that when an emancipation amendment to the Constitution was proposed, there had never been a constitutional amendment or provision that had ever granted the government the power to take away anyone's private property. If that power was granted, the concern was over further abuse of it and one only has to look at the problems that we have today over eminent domain.

If the Federal government was given the power to seize private property, where would it end? To see what the people of that time were thinking and what they were concerned about, you only have to look as far as the 14th Amendment.

The 14 Amendment granted citizenship to the former slaves. Nothing wrong with that and certainly the right thing to do. Right? Except that the way it was written, it created the problems that we have today with "anchor babies" and illegal immigration.

The people of that time knew something that we have forgotten today: laws can have unintended consequences, so you need to be very careful when you pass them.

Sorry, but your argument falls flat in the face of facts. There is revisionist history, but it's neither Southerners nor conservatives who revised it. All of these things were well known until the Progressive movement emerged in the early 20th century and started rewriting it, and the people who lived during the war and knew these facts gradually died off, allowing it to be forgotten.

Truth

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Jefferson Davis was born June 3, 1808, and he was the first and only President of the Confederate States of America. He believed in peace, free trade, and the American idea of self-government.

"All we ask is to be let alone." - Jefferson Davis

Criminals get pardoned.

 

[Katzndogz]

I don't congratulate the colonists for practicing slavery. All I'm saying is that because both the Colonists and the British Empire - at that time - practiced slavery (and the fact that it was not a key driver in the decision to declare independence) I think it's a totally moot point, period. The Colonists also didn't allow women to vote, either, but again when discussing the American Revolution that is an irrelevant point because it was not what they were fighting for at the time.

And if you don't believe that slavery was a driver behind the Civil War - fine - but I do, and also believe that the North was the "side" that supported/was capable of abolishing it. Therefore I "side" with the north in this thread, and will state that I'm glad they won the battle (and not the South) because it resulted in the abrupt end to slavery.

You bring up some interesting points of information about Lincoln and his view towards abolitionism I will research on my own, however... so thank you.

I don't think it necessarily matters what they seceded over. Either the right to secession exists, or it doesn't.

I actually have no problem saying that slavery was an issue behind the south's decision to secede. Many of the states said it themselves. My position is that it's not the only issue that drove them to it.

If the unfair taxation was the only reason the Southern states left the Union, than I’d have no problem either (a) supporting their stance (the fight for fairness), or at least (b) approaching the Civil War from a neutral viewpoint. However, because upholding the institution of slavery was one of the core reasons the Southern States seceded, I approach the civil war with a view that the North held the higher moral ground with regards to this particular conflict.

The South didn’t want to lose their right to own slaves and left the Union as a result…. I just can’t support that stance to any degree.

Endling slavery didn't become a reason until the civil war had already been going on for some time. The Emancipation Proclimation wasn't given until the third year of the civil war and that only prohibited slavery in secessionist states. Lincoln ended slavery as a punishment to the states for seceeding.

There is what you know and that is driven by what you want to know instead of what actually happened. Trying to educate someone convinced that the civil war was fought over slavery is as hard as trying to convince someone from Stormfront that Jews didn't cause WWII.

If we just taught real and factual American history none of this would be necessary.

 

[Liability]

Jefferson Davis was born June 3, 1808, and he was the first and only President of the Confederate States of America. He believed in peace, free trade, and the American idea of self-government.

"All we ask is to be let alone." - Jefferson Davis

He believed in peace except for that whole Civil War thing.

He believed in free trade -- of slaves.

And he believed in the American idea of self-government, except for "those" African descendants.

Fuck his filthy memory.

A war started by Lincoln.

Yes, he practiced slavery, which really has little to do with one's position on free trade.

Yes, he believed in the America idea of self-government. Thomas Jefferson did as well, and I have heard rumors that he might have been a slaveowner as well.

I doubt you say fuck the "filthy" memory of the slave-owning colonists who seceded from the British Empire.

Because LINCOLN fired on Ft. Sumter.

Of course.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Jefferson Davis was born June 3, 1808, and he was the first and only President of the Confederate States of America. He believed in peace, free trade, and the American idea of self-government.

"All we ask is to be let alone." - Jefferson Davis

Criminals get pardoned.

Jefferson Davis was never pardoned in his lifetime because refused to ask for a pardon. He was pardoned by Pres. Jimmy Carter.

List of people pardoned or granted clemency by the President of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

He believed in peace except for that whole Civil War thing.

He believed in free trade -- of slaves.

And he believed in the American idea of self-government, except for "those" African descendants.

Fuck his filthy memory.

A war started by Lincoln.

Yes, he practiced slavery, which really has little to do with one's position on free trade.

Yes, he believed in the America idea of self-government. Thomas Jefferson did as well, and I have heard rumors that he might have been a slaveowner as well.

I doubt you say fuck the "filthy" memory of the slave-owning colonists who seceded from the British Empire.

Because LINCOLN fired on Ft. Sumter.

Of course.

What is the differences between the Confederacy and al qaeda, seeing that both declared war on the United States?

 

[slackjawed]

This thread stands as evidence that our public schools are failing to educate our children.

Revisionist history as well as judging the actions of people in history using the lense of modern times is not educating.

In fact, that is really close to brainwashing, if it hasn't crossed that line.......