Here is what I want to know from Democrats at USMB....

[Toddsterpatriot]

No, you asserted the richest were paying more of the total fed tax,

And they absolutely are.

I hate to have to keep pointing this out... I guess it must be because we've heard it repeated so often we assume it must be true.... RICH people do not pay income taxes! They don't have to earn incomes anymore because they are RICH. Their wealth generates more wealth for them and it can do so without earning taxable income because... funny thing... people are interested in using their wealth and willing to pay them for that opportunity.

Top income earners pay income taxes. That's who the left means by "the rich" but these are certainly not rich people... oh, they may be "rich" by some people's standards but they are not really the uber-wealthy. Mostly, this category is the small business entrepreneur who is building and growing a business and trying to become wealthy. The Left wants to close that door so that NO ONE can ever become wealthy and we all have to line up for the government soup.

They don't have to earn incomes anymore because they are RICH.

Lots of rich people do earn income. The very richest have more interest, dividends and capital gains than salary income.

Their wealth generates more wealth for them and it can do so without earning taxable income because...

There are things they can do to minimize taxable income and taxes, but many still have a lot of income and pay a lot of taxes.

Again... Interest gains and capital gains are not earned income and are not effected by the earned income tax rates. Those are people using the wealth they already have to create more wealth because people are willing to pay them to use their wealth. You can jack up those tax rates here and all you will accomplish is more wealth going to other countries where it doesn't exist because they need the money. If you close up that avenue, they will simply put their money in tax-free securities and municipal bonds. You're not going to stop that because you'd devastate most major cities in America and banks would have no money to lend.

The BEST option is to stop this silly War on The Rich and encourage them to create wealth. When they do that, people spend money and people make money and taxes are generated as a result of a robust economic condition. Buildings and factories have to be constructed, people have to be hired to do that... new equipment has to be purchased, people have to make those things, sell those things, maintain those things.... it's how stuff works in the real world. This constantly droning and conspiring against "The Rich" is kind of like nailing yourself in the head with a large hammer.

Again... Interest gains and capital gains are not earned income and are not effected by the earned income tax rates.

You're half right.

Interest Income and Taxes

Most interest income is taxable as ordinary income on your federal tax return, and is therefore subject to ordinary income tax rates. There are a few exceptions, however.

Interest Income and Taxes - Fidelity

The BEST option is to stop this silly War on The Rich and encourage them to create wealth.

I agree.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

When did Republicans ever shift the tax burden to the middle-class?

I'll challenge you right here and right now:

As a middle-class working man, I can easily list several expenses that I have to pay for thanks to the Democrat party and in particular, DumBama. I want you to show me one......just one expense I had to suffer under Republican leadership.

The truth of the matter is that under Democrat control, the wealthy and middle-class get screwed, because their money is transferred to the so-called poor, or otherwise those that don't feel like working.

The Republicans (and mostly the conservatives) are all for the middle-class. If there was never an Obama, nor a Democrat led Congress, I would be doing so much better today financially.

When the rich and corporations got huge tax breaks and the debt doubles, that shifts more of the tax burden on us.

Gov Rick Snyder gave corporations tax breaks and now says he has to raise our taxes to fix the roads. Because we don't have any money he says. That's a great example

When the rich and corporations got huge tax breaks and the debt doubles, that shifts more of the tax burden on us.

When did the corporations get huge tax breaks from Bush?
After the Bush tax cuts, the rich were paying a bigger chunk, the opposite of your claim.

When the rich get richer and the middle class and below get poorer, the rich will pay more of the tax burden..... it is a progressive tax system.... if the rich are successful in acquiring more income, while the others acquire less of the pie, it's only natural for their share of the taxes paid in dollars, go up.....you earn more income, you pay more income tax in dollars, even if your tax rate does not change, and even if your tax rate goes down....

Yes, it's called penalizing success and rewarding failure. How's that working out for us so far? And if you think that's a good social system, then why don't you try doing the same with your children and see how they turn out.

Ray, even if we had a flat rate income tax, if the rich became richer, with more income, they would pay more in 'dollars'' in income tax.....

Would that be ''punishing them"?

of course not.

And if the middle class man earned more in income, with the same flat rate tax, he too would pay more in ''dollars'' in income tax.

And visa/versa, if the rich man earned less income, he would pay less in tax dollars, same with the middle class guy.

Going back to what Todd was saying....about the rich paying a higher share of the tax dollars paid....with no tax rates changed, he is paying more in tax dollars because he earned more, while the guy from the middle was earning less income, therefore paying less in tax dollars.

This is WHY the richer people are paying more of the total tax dollars collected, and the middle class guy or less are paying less of the total share of taxes, i.e. because they are earning less of the total income.

It's a good position to be in....the rich guy's....he is earning more income/money each year, while all the rest of the citizens on average, are earning less in income.


Who gives a flying hoot if the rich guy is paying a larger share of the taxes collected, and the rest have less of a share of the taxes collected, when your share as the rich guy is larger because you are earning in income, boo coos more than you previously did?

You in plural, as the rich guys, are doing well, while the others are doing crappy!!!

That's all it means when someone mentions and uses the cliche or term of, ''The rich are paying a larger share of the taxes collected....''

It only means the rich guys are doing good and are getting paid more, while others are not.

So you think it's okay to steal from the rich simply because they created more wealth than others? If that's so, why stop at money alone?

If you have ten beautiful bushes in your front yard, would it not be fair for government to come along and take four of your bushes and give them to your neighbor down the street who has no bushes at all?

If you have four cars in your family, shouldn't the government come along and take two of those cars to give to a family that has no cars and relies on public transportation?

How many television sets in your home today? I bet too many. Government needs to take one or two of your sets and give them to those people that have no television.

Now if you think that would be ridiculous, you would be correct. But why is it that doing the same thing with money not so ridiculous?

And no, if we had a flat tax where all paid the same percentage, that wouldn't be too unfair at all. What is unfair is the fact the top 10% of wage earners in this country pay 70% of all federal income taxes while 47% pay no income tax at all. Yet, when we talk about wanting more "free" things like college, we consider that very same top 10% and not the 47%.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

What's so great about someone that isn't the parent of a kid being forced to pay the taxes that funds what the kid's own parents won't do?

Well, I'd call it INVESTING. Frankly, I want the kids who are going to be making or fixing the things I use to have the skills to do it properly.

Me too, that's why they should go to school, pay for their education, and then get jobs doing such things.

 

[Boss]

No, you asserted the richest were paying more of the total fed tax,

And they absolutely are.

I hate to have to keep pointing this out... I guess it must be because we've heard it repeated so often we assume it must be true.... RICH people do not pay income taxes! They don't have to earn incomes anymore because they are RICH. Their wealth generates more wealth for them and it can do so without earning taxable income because... funny thing... people are interested in using their wealth and willing to pay them for that opportunity.

Top income earners pay income taxes. That's who the left means by "the rich" but these are certainly not rich people... oh, they may be "rich" by some people's standards but they are not really the uber-wealthy. Mostly, this category is the small business entrepreneur who is building and growing a business and trying to become wealthy. The Left wants to close that door so that NO ONE can ever become wealthy and we all have to line up for the government soup.

They don't have to earn incomes anymore because they are RICH.

Lots of rich people do earn income. The very richest have more interest, dividends and capital gains than salary income.

Their wealth generates more wealth for them and it can do so without earning taxable income because...

There are things they can do to minimize taxable income and taxes, but many still have a lot of income and pay a lot of taxes.

Again... Interest gains and capital gains are not earned income and are not effected by the earned income tax rates. Those are people using the wealth they already have to create more wealth because people are willing to pay them to use their wealth. You can jack up those tax rates here and all you will accomplish is more wealth going to other countries where it doesn't exist because they need the money. If you close up that avenue, they will simply put their money in tax-free securities and municipal bonds. You're not going to stop that because you'd devastate most major cities in America and banks would have no money to lend.

The BEST option is to stop this silly War on The Rich and encourage them to create wealth. When they do that, people spend money and people make money and taxes are generated as a result of a robust economic condition. Buildings and factories have to be constructed, people have to be hired to do that... new equipment has to be purchased, people have to make those things, sell those things, maintain those things.... it's how stuff works in the real world. This constantly droning and conspiring against "The Rich" is kind of like nailing yourself in the head with a large hammer.

Again... Interest gains and capital gains are not earned income and are not effected by the earned income tax rates.

You're half right.

Interest Income and Taxes

Most interest income is taxable as ordinary income on your federal tax return, and is therefore subject to ordinary income tax rates. There are a few exceptions, however.

Interest Income and Taxes - Fidelity

The BEST option is to stop this silly War on The Rich and encourage them to create wealth.

I agree.

Most uber-wealthy people don't have simple interest income either. Their money is invested. The amount of actual "income tax" paid by the uber-wealthy is minuscule.

What the Left wants to do is find ways to tax their investments. The problem is, when you do that it's going to have a dramatic effect in areas you're not going to like... and it still won't generate tax revenue. The Rich are simply not going to pay taxes. They will always be two or three steps ahead of whatever brainless liberal plans are implemented and they will continue to avoid excessive taxation. Now... they WILL pay a small amount of tax and they don't seem to mind doing that. But just to work yourself into this idiotic jealous liberal frenzy to "stick it to the rich" is futile. It won't ever work.

 

[Boss]

Yeah, I've heard that song before. It's bullshit. Time we started smacking down these assholes.

It's not bullshit, it's happening... are you not paying attention? You've been trying for the last decade to lay the smack down on these assholes and now most of our manufacturing jobs are in China.

 

[Boss]

Ah... So you are a FASCIST now?

naw, that's your boy Trump.

I mean I know you are soooo worried about rich factory owners, but frankly, they need to man up and do their part.

No... that's YOU with your Gestapo Government policies digging into people's personal lives to ruin them and making life difficult for them if they don't tow your party line. That's what Mussolini and Hitler did. You're a Little Hitler. Here, we have Constitutional rights, due process rights, the right to privacy and the right to be secure in our property. You're not going to change all of that.

 

[JoeB131]

So you think it's okay to steal from the rich simply because they created more wealth than others? If that's so, why stop at money alone?

No, I think it's okay to tax the rich because they've made their money exploiting the people who did the actual work.

Now, if you wanted to support true wealth equality in distribution, we could probably do without a lot of taxation on the rich because we wouldn't need to subsidize the workers at McDonalds or Walmart who are on food stamps or Section 8 housing.

 

[JoeB131]

No... that's YOU with your Gestapo Government policies digging into people's personal lives to ruin them and making life difficult for them if they don't tow your party line. That's what Mussolini and Hitler did. You're a Little Hitler. Here, we have Constitutional rights, due process rights, the right to privacy and the right to be secure in our property. You're not going to change all of that.

No right to privacy involved here, guy. Businesses are public entities. You move your factory to China, everyone should know who you are.

And if some average Americans kick out the teeth of these assholes, I'm totally good with that.

 

[JoeB131]

It's not bullshit, it's happening... are you not paying attention? You've been trying for the last decade to lay the smack down on these assholes and now most of our manufacturing jobs are in China.

NO, we haven't. We've done the exact oppossite of smacking them down. We've given them FUCKING TAX BREAKS to move their factories. We've lowered tarrifs so they can get their slave-labor goods. Heck, we even moved Steve Jobs to the front of the "Get a transplant organ before a poor kid gets it" line.

I WISH we were smacking down the assholes.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

So you think it's okay to steal from the rich simply because they created more wealth than others? If that's so, why stop at money alone?

No, I think it's okay to tax the rich because they've made their money exploiting the people who did the actual work.

Now, if you wanted to support true wealth equality in distribution, we could probably do without a lot of taxation on the rich because we wouldn't need to subsidize the workers at McDonalds or Walmart who are on food stamps or Section 8 housing.

they've made their money exploiting the people who did the actual work.

I'd love it if you shared your definition of exploit.

 

[Boss]

No, I think it's okay to tax the rich because they've made their money exploiting the people who did the actual work.

What makes you think that you know the circumstances behind everyone's wealth acquisition? Has no one ever taught you that people are all individuals and that we don't fit into neat little stereotype boxes you create or were you raised by a bunch of bigots?

I've made this point to you before and we can test your theory... Go out in your yard with a shovel... start digging a hole.... dig hard! Dig as hard as you've ever dug before... put some muscle into it... do it all day long and into the night... dig until you are totally exhausted and can't dig anymore.... Let's see how much wealth your labor generates? Surely, if labor creates wealth, there will be all sorts of monetary rewards raining down on you!

You see, moron... Creating wealth is about MORE than labor. It does not matter how great you are at assembling cars if there is no one to market them, to sell them, to buy them, etc. Like you digging the hole... it makes you NO money unless you've struck a deal with someone who is willing to pay you to dig a hole. Therefore, these people you claim are being "exploited who did all the work" didn't do all the work. They did some of the work and they were paid for their services. They did so voluntarily because they struck a deal with someone willing to pay for their labor.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

It's not bullshit, it's happening... are you not paying attention? You've been trying for the last decade to lay the smack down on these assholes and now most of our manufacturing jobs are in China.

NO, we haven't. We've done the exact oppossite of smacking them down. We've given them FUCKING TAX BREAKS to move their factories. We've lowered tarrifs so they can get their slave-labor goods. Heck, we even moved Steve Jobs to the front of the "Get a transplant organ before a poor kid gets it" line.

I WISH we were smacking down the assholes.

We've given them FUCKING TAX BREAKS to move their factories.

Do you have the section of the tax code that gives that break?

 

[Boss]

It's not bullshit, it's happening... are you not paying attention? You've been trying for the last decade to lay the smack down on these assholes and now most of our manufacturing jobs are in China.

NO, we haven't. We've done the exact oppossite of smacking them down. We've given them FUCKING TAX BREAKS to move their factories. We've lowered tarrifs so they can get their slave-labor goods. Heck, we even moved Steve Jobs to the front of the "Get a transplant organ before a poor kid gets it" line.

I WISH we were smacking down the assholes.

Well we've done it with YOUR congress who YOU keep re-electing over and over... implementing YOUR policies... following YOUR game plan. Maybe it has something to do with all those corporations donating huge campaign contributions to the candidates you're gaga over? You think Hillary, who is in the pocket of Wall Street, is going to lay the smack down on them? Dream on, moron!

 

[Boss]

No... that's YOU with your Gestapo Government policies digging into people's personal lives to ruin them and making life difficult for them if they don't tow your party line. That's what Mussolini and Hitler did. You're a Little Hitler. Here, we have Constitutional rights, due process rights, the right to privacy and the right to be secure in our property. You're not going to change all of that.

No right to privacy involved here, guy. Businesses are public entities. You move your factory to China, everyone should know who you are.

And if some average Americans kick out the teeth of these assholes, I'm totally good with that.

Well then someone would be sued for defamation of character and invasion of privacy and someone would be arrested for assault and battery. You're a real wacko today, moron. What the hell makes you think that the owner of a factory doesn't have Constitutional protection?

And by the way... Thanks to your boyfriend Bill Clinton, we have NAFTA and GATT which make it perfectly LEGAL to move your company elsewhere. YOUR policies did this.

 

[JoeB131]

they've made their money exploiting the people who did the actual work.

I'd love it if you shared your definition of exploit.

Your labor produces a certain value. You don't see that value, but someone else who didn't do it does.

That's exploitation.

Thanks. Happy to have cleared that up for you.

 

[JoeB131]

Well we've done it with YOUR congress who YOU keep re-electing over and over... implementing YOUR policies... following YOUR game plan. Maybe it has something to do with all those corporations donating huge campaign contributions to the candidates you're gaga over? You think Hillary, who is in the pocket of Wall Street, is going to lay the smack down on them? Dream on, moron!

I think Hillary will do more than any Republican will do. You know what, I seem to remember when her Husband was President, I could send a resume out and have a better paying job in a week. that's what I remember.

 

[JoeB131]

Well then someone would be sued for defamation of character and invasion of privacy and someone would be arrested for assault and battery. You're a real wacko today, moron. What the hell makes you think that the owner of a factory doesn't have Constitutional protection?

And by the way... Thanks to your boyfriend Bill Clinton, we have NAFTA and GATT which make it perfectly LEGAL to move your company elsewhere. YOUR policies did this.

Fuck factory owners who betray our country. I'm all for hanging these "economic Rosenbergs".

Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should.

Again, you are blaming the rape victim for a short dress.

 

[JoeB131]

What makes you think that you know the circumstances behind everyone's wealth acquisition? Has no one ever taught you that people are all individuals and that we don't fit into neat little stereotype boxes you create or were you raised by a bunch of bigots?

I'm willing to do a case by case examination. I don't think your side would come out very good under those circumstances, though.

I've made this point to you before and we can test your theory... Go out in your yard with a shovel... start digging a hole.... dig hard! Dig as hard as you've ever dug before... put some muscle into it... do it all day long and into the night... dig until you are totally exhausted and can't dig anymore.... Let's see how much wealth your labor generates? Surely, if labor creates wealth, there will be all sorts of monetary rewards raining down on you!

Actually, I ignored that example because it was retarded, and I didn't want to embarrass you. clearly, no one is going to pay me to dig a hole unless you needed a hole dug there.

Now, here's the thing. It's probably fairly easy to assess the value added to an enterprise. the thing is, the 1% is not providing 43% of the value. They are just collecting 43% of the wealth. That's kind of fucked up. The only reason why you don't have people demanding change is most people aren't aware of it.

Here's a graph. The first bar shows how wealth is ACTUALLY distributed. The second bar shows how people THINK it's distributed. Their third is what people think would be reasonably fair. Please note, people have no problem with the fact the rich will have more. They just don't think they should have as much as they have.

 

[JoeB131]

You see, moron... Creating wealth is about MORE than labor. It does not matter how great you are at assembling cars if there is no one to market them, to sell them, to buy them, etc. Like you digging the hole... it makes you NO money unless you've struck a deal with someone who is willing to pay you to dig a hole. Therefore, these people you claim are being "exploited who did all the work" didn't do all the work. They did some of the work and they were paid for their services. They did so voluntarily because they struck a deal with someone willing to pay for their labor.

Okay, let's look at that example. Cars are probably not a great example, because automakers are unionized and get a reasonable fair share.

But let's look at the value of a car. The guy who sold it to me probably didn't spend more than an hour or two getting me to buy the car. The guys who built it spent dozens of manhours putting it together. Seems to me that they had a lot more to do with getting that car onto the lot for me to buy it.

So what did the 1%er do? oh, that's right, he bought some stock in Ford because their stock was performing well that weak.

The capitalist is a parasite who has convinced you he's a vital organ.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

they've made their money exploiting the people who did the actual work.

I'd love it if you shared your definition of exploit.

Your labor produces a certain value. You don't see that value, but someone else who didn't do it does.

That's exploitation.

Thanks. Happy to have cleared that up for you.

Your labor produces a certain value. You don't see that value, but someone else who didn't do it does.

What is the certain value?
Do you mean value added?
Can you give an example of what you mean?