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Neither am I- no one is trying to force a church to marry gays.
Or marry you.
The PJ Tatler Idaho City Threatens to Jail Ministers for Not Performing Gay Weddings
True or false?
False.
First of all- your statement:
I'm not trying. I'm not the one trying to force a church to marry gays
As i said- no one is trying to force a church to marry anyone.
Now about the headline you provided- Idaho City has not threatened to jail any ministers- its a lie by Conservatives.
What is the reality?
Conservative activist lawyers have sued the City to change the law which requires business people to serve customers regardless of their sexual orientation.
The 'ministers' run a commercial wedding facility and marry people for money. The City has never threatened them. The entire controversy was created by Conservatives to challenge the law.
The kind of thing they say is wrong when gay couples sue to be able to get married.
Christian Chapel Owners Were Reportedly Threatened With Jail Time and Fines For Refusing to Marry Gays and Now They 8217 re Fighting Back TheBlaze.com
Donald and Evelyn Knapp, owners of Hitching Post Wedding Chapel in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, are being represented by the Alliance Defending Freedom, a conservative legal firm, claiming that city officials told them that they are required to conduct gay marriages under a nondiscrimination ordinance.
True or false?
If you believe they are engaging in perjury, by submitting false claims in the court of law, by all means file a counter suit.
First of all- do you agree we are not speaking about a church being forced to marry anyone?
After we get past your original claim, I can destroy....I mean discuss your next one.
I couldn't care less if it's a church or not. Doesn't matter to me at all. If I bake wedding cakes, and a gay couple come in, I'm telling them no. I don't care what you think about "well that's a business", or "that's not a church". Your opinion on that doesn't matter to me in the slightest.
You are not going to force me to accommodate something that violates my religious views, whether it's a business of mine, or a church, or a hobby.
So I don't give a crap what you think it is.
False.
First of all- your statement:
I'm not trying. I'm not the one trying to force a church to marry gays
As i said- no one is trying to force a church to marry anyone.
Now about the headline you provided- Idaho City has not threatened to jail any ministers- its a lie by Conservatives.
What is the reality?
Conservative activist lawyers have sued the City to change the law which requires business people to serve customers regardless of their sexual orientation.
The 'ministers' run a commercial wedding facility and marry people for money. The City has never threatened them. The entire controversy was created by Conservatives to challenge the law.
The kind of thing they say is wrong when gay couples sue to be able to get married.
Christian Chapel Owners Were Reportedly Threatened With Jail Time and Fines For Refusing to Marry Gays and Now They 8217 re Fighting Back TheBlaze.com
Donald and Evelyn Knapp, owners of Hitching Post Wedding Chapel in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, are being represented by the Alliance Defending Freedom, a conservative legal firm, claiming that city officials told them that they are required to conduct gay marriages under a nondiscrimination ordinance.
True or false?
If you believe they are engaging in perjury, by submitting false claims in the court of law, by all means file a counter suit.
First of all- do you agree we are not speaking about a church being forced to marry anyone?
After we get past your original claim, I can destroy....I mean discuss your next one.
I couldn't care less if it's a church or not. Doesn't matter to me at all. If I bake wedding cakes, and a gay couple come in, I'm telling them no. I don't care what you think about "well that's a business", or "that's not a church". Your opinion on that doesn't matter to me in the slightest.
You are not going to force me to accommodate something that violates my religious views, whether it's a business of mine, or a church, or a hobby.
So I don't give a crap what you think it is.
Oh I thought you wanted a discussion.
Now I realize you just enjoy saying crap
The article you cited lied.
You don't care.
You complained about churches being forced to marry people- and no one is saying churches must marry people.
Just more crap from Conservatives.
False.
First of all- your statement:
I'm not trying. I'm not the one trying to force a church to marry gays
As i said- no one is trying to force a church to marry anyone.
Now about the headline you provided- Idaho City has not threatened to jail any ministers- its a lie by Conservatives.
What is the reality?
Conservative activist lawyers have sued the City to change the law which requires business people to serve customers regardless of their sexual orientation.
The 'ministers' run a commercial wedding facility and marry people for money. The City has never threatened them. The entire controversy was created by Conservatives to challenge the law.
The kind of thing they say is wrong when gay couples sue to be able to get married.
Christian Chapel Owners Were Reportedly Threatened With Jail Time and Fines For Refusing to Marry Gays and Now They 8217 re Fighting Back TheBlaze.com
Donald and Evelyn Knapp, owners of Hitching Post Wedding Chapel in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, are being represented by the Alliance Defending Freedom, a conservative legal firm, claiming that city officials told them that they are required to conduct gay marriages under a nondiscrimination ordinance.
True or false?
If you believe they are engaging in perjury, by submitting false claims in the court of law, by all means file a counter suit.
First of all- do you agree we are not speaking about a church being forced to marry anyone?
After we get past your original claim, I can destroy....I mean discuss your next one.
I couldn't care less if it's a church or not. Doesn't matter to me at all. If I bake wedding cakes, and a gay couple come in, I'm telling them no. I don't care what you think about "well that's a business", or "that's not a church". Your opinion on that doesn't matter to me in the slightest.
You are not going to force me to accommodate something that violates my religious views, whether it's a business of mine, or a church, or a hobby.
So I don't give a crap what you think it is.
Oh I thought you wanted a discussion.
Now I realize you just enjoy saying crap
The article you cited lied.
You don't care.
You complained about churches being forced to marry people- and no one is saying churches must marry people.
Just more crap from Conservatives.
No, I wanted you to tell me if the article was true, or false, and provide evidence.
Either the city officials did, or did not, tell them that they must marry gay couples. It's either true, or false. You claim they lied.
Ok. Please explain the following letter written to them from the City Attorney's office.
http://www.adfmedia.org/files/KnappCityAttorneyLetter.pdf
The letter makes it clear that if they are operating their Chapel as a for-profit business, that they are required to marry gay couples.
Was the letter from the Attorney's office a lie?
If the entire thing, every bit of evidence is a lie... then I respectfully accept your position. That's a heck of a lot of people that all lied, and only you on an internet forum have the truth.
I doubt they all lied, and only you are telling the truth.
.
False.
First of all- your statement:
I'm not trying. I'm not the one trying to force a church to marry gays
As i said- no one is trying to force a church to marry anyone.
Now about the headline you provided- Idaho City has not threatened to jail any ministers- its a lie by Conservatives.
What is the reality?
Conservative activist lawyers have sued the City to change the law which requires business people to serve customers regardless of their sexual orientation.
The 'ministers' run a commercial wedding facility and marry people for money. The City has never threatened them. The entire controversy was created by Conservatives to challenge the law.
The kind of thing they say is wrong when gay couples sue to be able to get married.
Christian Chapel Owners Were Reportedly Threatened With Jail Time and Fines For Refusing to Marry Gays and Now They 8217 re Fighting Back TheBlaze.com
Donald and Evelyn Knapp, owners of Hitching Post Wedding Chapel in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, are being represented by the Alliance Defending Freedom, a conservative legal firm, claiming that city officials told them that they are required to conduct gay marriages under a nondiscrimination ordinance.
True or false?
If you believe they are engaging in perjury, by submitting false claims in the court of law, by all means file a counter suit.
First of all- do you agree we are not speaking about a church being forced to marry anyone?
After we get past your original claim, I can destroy....I mean discuss your next one.
I couldn't care less if it's a church or not. Doesn't matter to me at all. If I bake wedding cakes, and a gay couple come in, I'm telling them no. I don't care what you think about "well that's a business", or "that's not a church". Your opinion on that doesn't matter to me in the slightest.
You are not going to force me to accommodate something that violates my religious views, whether it's a business of mine, or a church, or a hobby.
So I don't give a crap what you think it is.
Oh I thought you wanted a discussion.
Now I realize you just enjoy saying crap
The article you cited lied.
You don't care.
You complained about churches being forced to marry people- and no one is saying churches must marry people.
Just more crap from Conservatives.
No, I wanted you to tell me if the article was true, or false, and provide evidence.
Either the city officials did, or did not, tell them that they must marry gay couples. It's either true, or false. You claim they lied.
Ok. Please explain the following letter written to them from the City Attorney's office.
http://www.adfmedia.org/files/KnappCityAttorneyLetter.pdf
The letter makes it clear that if they are operating their Chapel as a for-profit business, that they are required to marry gay couples.
Was the letter from the Attorney's office a lie?
If the entire thing, every bit of evidence is a lie... then I respectfully accept your position. That's a heck of a lot of people that all lied, and only you on an internet forum have the truth.
I doubt they all lied, and only you are telling the truth.
As for 'more crap from conservatives'... oh no.... no no no. I'm far far worse than that. I'm a true Bible believing Christian. Conservatism is a political ideological belief system that encompasses dozens of topics, all of which I'd be more than willing to debate and discuss with you.
This.... is about true faith. It's not an abstract ideal for me. It's true worship of G-d in Heaven.
No, I'm not here to discuss my beliefs, or my religious views. I'm not here to debate practice of my faith, or the merits thereof.
No, I'm just here to TELL YOU what my faith is, and that I am going to practice it, with or without it being legal, or your approval.
I won't give my life for 'conservatism', but I most certainly will give my life for my faith. Allow me to make that crystal clear, in no uncertain or ambiguous terms. I will DIE over this issue. If you fine me, I won't pay the fine. If you fail me, I'll go gladly, but I won't follow your rules on this. When I get out of jail, I'll go right back to practicing my faith.
I will operate my church, run my business, and provide my services, to whomever I please, and refuse when it violates my faith. If you send me to prison for 20 years, when I get out, I'll resume my business, and still deny gay marriage, and there is nothing you will do to prevent it. I'll go back to prison for another 20 years, or the rest of my life. But I'm not going to follow this evil immoral law, no matter what.
And that.... is all there is to it.
False.
First of all- your statement:
I'm not trying. I'm not the one trying to force a church to marry gays
As i said- no one is trying to force a church to marry anyone.
Now about the headline you provided- Idaho City has not threatened to jail any ministers- its a lie by Conservatives.
What is the reality?
Conservative activist lawyers have sued the City to change the law which requires business people to serve customers regardless of their sexual orientation.
The 'ministers' run a commercial wedding facility and marry people for money. The City has never threatened them. The entire controversy was created by Conservatives to challenge the law.
The kind of thing they say is wrong when gay couples sue to be able to get married.
Christian Chapel Owners Were Reportedly Threatened With Jail Time and Fines For Refusing to Marry Gays and Now They 8217 re Fighting Back TheBlaze.com
Donald and Evelyn Knapp, owners of Hitching Post Wedding Chapel in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, are being represented by the Alliance Defending Freedom, a conservative legal firm, claiming that city officials told them that they are required to conduct gay marriages under a nondiscrimination ordinance.
True or false?
If you believe they are engaging in perjury, by submitting false claims in the court of law, by all means file a counter suit.
First of all- do you agree we are not speaking about a church being forced to marry anyone?
After we get past your original claim, I can destroy....I mean discuss your next one.
I couldn't care less if it's a church or not. Doesn't matter to me at all. If I bake wedding cakes, and a gay couple come in, I'm telling them no. I don't care what you think about "well that's a business", or "that's not a church". Your opinion on that doesn't matter to me in the slightest.
You are not going to force me to accommodate something that violates my religious views, whether it's a business of mine, or a church, or a hobby.
So I don't give a crap what you think it is.
Oh I thought you wanted a discussion.
Now I realize you just enjoy saying crap
The article you cited lied.
You don't care.
You complained about churches being forced to marry people- and no one is saying churches must marry people.
Just more crap from Conservatives.
No, I wanted you to tell me if the article was true, or false, and provide evidence.
Either the city officials did, or did not, tell them that they must marry gay couples. It's either true, or false. You claim they lied.
Ok. Please explain the following letter written to them from the City Attorney's office.
http://www.adfmedia.org/files/KnappCityAttorneyLetter.pdf
The letter makes it clear that if they are operating their Chapel as a for-profit business, that they are required to marry gay couples.
Was the letter from the Attorney's office a lie?
If the entire thing, every bit of evidence is a lie... then I respectfully accept your position. That's a heck of a lot of people that all lied, and only you on an internet forum have the truth.
I doubt they all lied, and only you are telling the truth.
As for 'more crap from conservatives'... oh no.... no no no. I'm far far worse than that. I'm a true Bible believing Christian. Conservatism is a political ideological belief system that encompasses dozens of topics, all of which I'd be more than willing to debate and discuss with you.
This.... is about true faith. It's not an abstract ideal for me. It's true worship of G-d in Heaven.
No, I'm not here to discuss my beliefs, or my religious views. I'm not here to debate practice of my faith, or the merits thereof.
No, I'm just here to TELL YOU what my faith is, and that I am going to practice it, with or without it being legal, or your approval.
I won't give my life for 'conservatism', but I most certainly will give my life for my faith. Allow me to make that crystal clear, in no uncertain or ambiguous terms. I will DIE over this issue. If you fine me, I won't pay the fine. If you fail me, I'll go gladly, but I won't follow your rules on this. When I get out of jail, I'll go right back to practicing my faith.
I will operate my church, run my business, and provide my services, to whomever I please, and refuse when it violates my faith. If you send me to prison for 20 years, when I get out, I'll resume my business, and still deny gay marriage, and there is nothing you will do to prevent it. I'll go back to prison for another 20 years, or the rest of my life. But I'm not going to follow this evil immoral law, no matter what.
And that.... is all there is to it.
Did you just say that the Hobby Lobby ruling gave special rights to SOME businesses?
So are you admitting that you just lied about having a gun permit?
i used "my" instead of "a".
If you search back in my posts on guns I have repeatedly stated I do not own a firearm. A typo is not a lie.
This is the first and only time you have posted that to my knowledge.
What is a lie on your part is your "dedication to the constitution as written". Where have you advocated that slavery should still be in force, blacks should still be counted as 3/5 ths of a person in the census and only white men allowed to vote?
Amendments ARE the constitution as written, it is the proper method for changing the document. and anything added via amendment is part of the document. you are confusing "as written" with "original intent"
I suggest a civics class for you, you need a refresher.
Ironic!
Where in the Constitution "as written" does it stipulate that there should be no background checks for gun ownership? Where does it stipulate that gays should be denied their equality under the law? Where is it "written" that you must have a state issued ID in order to vote?
As long as a background check doesn't infringe on someone wanting to buy a firearm, it is not an issue. We have plenty of background checks already that the NRA is just fine with.
Where does it say that marriage licenses have to be granted to everyone, regardless of restrictions listed by the state legislatures?
The constitution allows States to determine voter eligibility, restricted by the amendments that pertain to voting rights.
Civics lesson given, you can thank me later.
They are running a business, not a religion.
Hence they fall under business law and must not discriminate.
I disagree. They're a church that performs weddings. I don't see how they must be forced to perform gay weddings, when it directly violates freedom of religion.
Not according to the City.
Additionally, city officials say the chapel is a for-profit business meaning the owners must comply with local non-discrimination ordinances.
In 2013, the city passed an ordinance prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation. That ordinance applied to housing, employment and “public accommodation” and exempted religious entities. But city attorney Warren Wilson said in May the Hitching Post would likely be required to follow the ordinance.
Idaho ministers face arrest jail for refusing to perform same-sex weddings - Spokane Conservative Examiner.com
If they were a religious entity they would have been exempted but since they are running a for profit business they have violated the law.
I don't care what the city says. I don't care what you say. We're not going to perform gay marriage.... Period. Jail us. Attack us. Smear us. Whatever you want.
We have a right to run business. We have a right to our religion and beliefs. You don't have a say in the matter.
We're not doing it. Period. You'll have to jail millions of Christians across this country. We're not going away, and we're not going to follow your laws. Sucks to be you.
Good for you.
I want you to know- I will never force you to "gay marry"- I will never force you to marry anyone you don't want to marry.
On a more serious note- no one is going to force you to marry anyone if you are a minister marrying in a church.
If you are a business in most states, you can discriminate against homosexuals to your Christian hearts content.
But if you run a business in states where the law says that you can't discriminate against people for sexual orientation, then it is as illegal to refuse to serve homosexuals as it is to refuse to do business with Jews or Blacks.
Don't care. We're not going to marry gays. Period. No matter what the state says, or doesn't say. Illegal or not, we're not going to do it. Too bad.
Well bully for you.
I will never force you to marry a gay.
Ever.
Of course you won't. You couldn't even if you tried.
And you couldn't force me to marry anyone even if you tried.
I'm not trying. I'm not the one trying to force a church to marry gays.
I'm not the one trying to force a church to marry gays
Scientology is a church which sells it services like a business sells knick-knacks, yet Scientologists believe that they are part of a religion.
They are running a business, not a religion.
Hence they fall under business law and must not discriminate.
I disagree. They're a church that performs weddings. I don't see how they must be forced to perform gay weddings, when it directly violates freedom of religion.
Not according to the City.
Additionally, city officials say the chapel is a for-profit business meaning the owners must comply with local non-discrimination ordinances.
In 2013, the city passed an ordinance prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation. That ordinance applied to housing, employment and “public accommodation” and exempted religious entities. But city attorney Warren Wilson said in May the Hitching Post would likely be required to follow the ordinance.
Idaho ministers face arrest jail for refusing to perform same-sex weddings - Spokane Conservative Examiner.com
If they were a religious entity they would have been exempted but since they are running a for profit business they have violated the law.
I don't care what the city says. I don't care what you say. We're not going to perform gay marriage.... Period. Jail us. Attack us. Smear us. Whatever you want.
We have a right to run business. We have a right to our religion and beliefs. You don't have a say in the matter.
We're not doing it. Period. You'll have to jail millions of Christians across this country. We're not going away, and we're not going to follow your laws. Sucks to be you.
It's not a "church" Androw. It's a wedding chapel which is a business that marries people. IF gay marriage is legal there, then they are using discriminatory business practices which is illegal.
Don't care. I said that the first time, and I'll say it every time here after.
Church, business, hobby. It's mine. My hobby... my business.. my church. Not yours. You don't have a right to tell me what to do with it.
"well that law says..."
Don't care.
"but it's not a church..."
Don't care.
"but discrimination...."
I DO NOT CARE.
I have a religious view, and it's not up for debate. That's what freedom of religion means. I can believe the moon is full of hamsters, and Obama is an alien hamster controlling the government, if I so desire to have a such a view.
We are not going to do gay marriage, those of use who believe in the Biblical Christian faith. We not doing it. PERIOD.
Not doing it. PERIOD. Not up for debate, I don't care about your reasons. Not happening.
Christian Chapel Owners Were Reportedly Threatened With Jail Time and Fines For Refusing to Marry Gays and Now They 8217 re Fighting Back TheBlaze.com
Donald and Evelyn Knapp, owners of Hitching Post Wedding Chapel in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, are being represented by the Alliance Defending Freedom, a conservative legal firm, claiming that city officials told them that they are required to conduct gay marriages under a nondiscrimination ordinance.
True or false?
If you believe they are engaging in perjury, by submitting false claims in the court of law, by all means file a counter suit.
First of all- do you agree we are not speaking about a church being forced to marry anyone?
After we get past your original claim, I can destroy....I mean discuss your next one.
I couldn't care less if it's a church or not. Doesn't matter to me at all. If I bake wedding cakes, and a gay couple come in, I'm telling them no. I don't care what you think about "well that's a business", or "that's not a church". Your opinion on that doesn't matter to me in the slightest.
You are not going to force me to accommodate something that violates my religious views, whether it's a business of mine, or a church, or a hobby.
So I don't give a crap what you think it is.
Oh I thought you wanted a discussion.
Now I realize you just enjoy saying crap
The article you cited lied.
You don't care.
You complained about churches being forced to marry people- and no one is saying churches must marry people.
Just more crap from Conservatives.
No, I wanted you to tell me if the article was true, or false, and provide evidence.
Either the city officials did, or did not, tell them that they must marry gay couples. It's either true, or false. You claim they lied.
Ok. Please explain the following letter written to them from the City Attorney's office.
http://www.adfmedia.org/files/KnappCityAttorneyLetter.pdf
The letter makes it clear that if they are operating their Chapel as a for-profit business, that they are required to marry gay couples.
Was the letter from the Attorney's office a lie?
If the entire thing, every bit of evidence is a lie... then I respectfully accept your position. That's a heck of a lot of people that all lied, and only you on an internet forum have the truth.
I doubt they all lied, and only you are telling the truth.
.
Lets start off with the base line- which is the first headline you quoted- and which I called a lie
The PJ Tatler Idaho City Threatens to Jail Ministers for Not Performing Gay Weddings
That appears to be a lie- now I say appears because I can't claim any more knowledge than what has been published in the papers. But based upon what has been published- that headline is a lie.
Two Ministers Claim They Could Face 180 Years In Jail For Refusing To Do Gay Weddings
There is one major problem with all this outrage, according to city officials in Coeur d’Alene: The owners of the Hitching Post Wedding Chapel do not face arrest or fines or any other penalty for refusing to marry same-sex couples.
The lawsuit argues that Coeur d’Alene’s non-discrimination ordinance -- which was passed last year and bars businesses and public accommodations from discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity -- will “unconstitutionally” force the Knapps to either “violate their religious convictions and ministerial vows” by performing same-sex weddings or face jail time and fines. According to the suit, the city has “privately and publicly threatened to apply” the ordinance to the Hitching Post.
However, according to city officials and the lawsuit itself, the Hitching Post filed papers with the Idaho Secretary of State identifying itself as a religious corporation on Oct. 6, the day before the 9th Circuit struck down Idaho’s ban. The city’s ordinance explicitly states that religious corporations are exempt from the law.
The lawsuit came as a surprise to city officials, who described conversations with the Knapps up until last week as “cordial.”
“We have never threatened them. We have never sent them a letter warning them. There was no ‘we’re going to throw you in jail’ kind of stuff. So we were mildly surprised, well, totally surprised by the lawsuit,” City Attorney Mike Gridley told The Huffington Post.
Moreover, while the lawsuit claims that the Knapps have already turned away multiple same-sex couples, Gridley said that the city had received no complaints about the Hitching Post and had no idea who these couples might be.
How did the Knapps come up with that jaw-dropping figure of 180 years? According to the lawsuit, the city ordinance sets forth fines up to $1,000 and jail time up to 180 days for every day of a violation. The Knapps' complaint reasons that they "risk going to jail for 180 years and being fined $365,000" if they refuse to marry one couple for one year.
Is that a real possibility? Gridley laughed. “That's not correct. Again,” he said.
“I want to make clear," said Gridley, "that the Hitching Post, or any other minister that I’m aware of, is not subject to our ordinance."
The Knapps declined to comment on the case.
So what actually happened?
1) The Knapps or their attorneys- asked the City whether or not they would be subject to the anti-discrimination ordinance.
2) The city responded that they believed that the Knapp's was a religious corporation and not subject to the ordinance but
3) The city said that business's are subject to the ordinance.
4) The city never threatened the Knapps with arrest or fines.
5) The Knapps or their attorneys initiated the issue with the City- not the other way around.
Not that any of this will matter but those are the facts that have been published.
Christian Chapel Owners Were Reportedly Threatened With Jail Time and Fines For Refusing to Marry Gays and Now They 8217 re Fighting Back TheBlaze.com
Donald and Evelyn Knapp, owners of Hitching Post Wedding Chapel in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, are being represented by the Alliance Defending Freedom, a conservative legal firm, claiming that city officials told them that they are required to conduct gay marriages under a nondiscrimination ordinance.
True or false?
If you believe they are engaging in perjury, by submitting false claims in the court of law, by all means file a counter suit.
First of all- do you agree we are not speaking about a church being forced to marry anyone?
After we get past your original claim, I can destroy....I mean discuss your next one.
I couldn't care less if it's a church or not. Doesn't matter to me at all. If I bake wedding cakes, and a gay couple come in, I'm telling them no. I don't care what you think about "well that's a business", or "that's not a church". Your opinion on that doesn't matter to me in the slightest.
You are not going to force me to accommodate something that violates my religious views, whether it's a business of mine, or a church, or a hobby.
So I don't give a crap what you think it is.
Oh I thought you wanted a discussion.
Now I realize you just enjoy saying crap
The article you cited lied.
You don't care.
You complained about churches being forced to marry people- and no one is saying churches must marry people.
Just more crap from Conservatives.
No, I wanted you to tell me if the article was true, or false, and provide evidence.
Either the city officials did, or did not, tell them that they must marry gay couples. It's either true, or false. You claim they lied.
Ok. Please explain the following letter written to them from the City Attorney's office.
http://www.adfmedia.org/files/KnappCityAttorneyLetter.pdf
The letter makes it clear that if they are operating their Chapel as a for-profit business, that they are required to marry gay couples.
Was the letter from the Attorney's office a lie?
If the entire thing, every bit of evidence is a lie... then I respectfully accept your position. That's a heck of a lot of people that all lied, and only you on an internet forum have the truth.
I doubt they all lied, and only you are telling the truth.
As for 'more crap from conservatives'... oh no.... no no no. I'm far far worse than that. I'm a true Bible believing Christian. Conservatism is a political ideological belief system that encompasses dozens of topics, all of which I'd be more than willing to debate and discuss with you.
This.... is about true faith. It's not an abstract ideal for me. It's true worship of G-d in Heaven.
No, I'm not here to discuss my beliefs, or my religious views. I'm not here to debate practice of my faith, or the merits thereof.
No, I'm just here to TELL YOU what my faith is, and that I am going to practice it, with or without it being legal, or your approval.
I won't give my life for 'conservatism', but I most certainly will give my life for my faith. Allow me to make that crystal clear, in no uncertain or ambiguous terms. I will DIE over this issue. If you fine me, I won't pay the fine. If you fail me, I'll go gladly, but I won't follow your rules on this. When I get out of jail, I'll go right back to practicing my faith.
I will operate my church, run my business, and provide my services, to whomever I please, and refuse when it violates my faith. If you send me to prison for 20 years, when I get out, I'll resume my business, and still deny gay marriage, and there is nothing you will do to prevent it. I'll go back to prison for another 20 years, or the rest of my life. But I'm not going to follow this evil immoral law, no matter what.
And that.... is all there is to it.
Christian Chapel Owners Were Reportedly Threatened With Jail Time and Fines For Refusing to Marry Gays and Now They 8217 re Fighting Back TheBlaze.com
Donald and Evelyn Knapp, owners of Hitching Post Wedding Chapel in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, are being represented by the Alliance Defending Freedom, a conservative legal firm, claiming that city officials told them that they are required to conduct gay marriages under a nondiscrimination ordinance.
True or false?
If you believe they are engaging in perjury, by submitting false claims in the court of law, by all means file a counter suit.
First of all- do you agree we are not speaking about a church being forced to marry anyone?
After we get past your original claim, I can destroy....I mean discuss your next one.
I couldn't care less if it's a church or not. Doesn't matter to me at all. If I bake wedding cakes, and a gay couple come in, I'm telling them no. I don't care what you think about "well that's a business", or "that's not a church". Your opinion on that doesn't matter to me in the slightest.
You are not going to force me to accommodate something that violates my religious views, whether it's a business of mine, or a church, or a hobby.
So I don't give a crap what you think it is.
Oh I thought you wanted a discussion.
Now I realize you just enjoy saying crap
The article you cited lied.
You don't care.
You complained about churches being forced to marry people- and no one is saying churches must marry people.
Just more crap from Conservatives.
No, I wanted you to tell me if the article was true, or false, and provide evidence.
Either the city officials did, or did not, tell them that they must marry gay couples. It's either true, or false. You claim they lied.
Ok. Please explain the following letter written to them from the City Attorney's office.
http://www.adfmedia.org/files/KnappCityAttorneyLetter.pdf
The letter makes it clear that if they are operating their Chapel as a for-profit business, that they are required to marry gay couples.
Was the letter from the Attorney's office a lie?
If the entire thing, every bit of evidence is a lie... then I respectfully accept your position. That's a heck of a lot of people that all lied, and only you on an internet forum have the truth.
I doubt they all lied, and only you are telling the truth.
As for 'more crap from conservatives'... oh no.... no no no. I'm far far worse than that. I'm a true Bible believing Christian. Conservatism is a political ideological belief system that encompasses dozens of topics, all of which I'd be more than willing to debate and discuss with you.
This.... is about true faith. It's not an abstract ideal for me. It's true worship of G-d in Heaven.
No, I'm not here to discuss my beliefs, or my religious views. I'm not here to debate practice of my faith, or the merits thereof.
No, I'm just here to TELL YOU what my faith is, and that I am going to practice it, with or without it being legal, or your approval.
I won't give my life for 'conservatism', but I most certainly will give my life for my faith. Allow me to make that crystal clear, in no uncertain or ambiguous terms. I will DIE over this issue. If you fine me, I won't pay the fine. If you fail me, I'll go gladly, but I won't follow your rules on this. When I get out of jail, I'll go right back to practicing my faith.
I will operate my church, run my business, and provide my services, to whomever I please, and refuse when it violates my faith. If you send me to prison for 20 years, when I get out, I'll resume my business, and still deny gay marriage, and there is nothing you will do to prevent it. I'll go back to prison for another 20 years, or the rest of my life. But I'm not going to follow this evil immoral law, no matter what.
And that.... is all there is to it.
Who do you imagine is threatening you?
They are running a business, not a religion.
Hence they fall under business law and must not discriminate.
I disagree. They're a church that performs weddings. I don't see how they must be forced to perform gay weddings, when it directly violates freedom of religion.
Not according to the City.
Additionally, city officials say the chapel is a for-profit business meaning the owners must comply with local non-discrimination ordinances.
In 2013, the city passed an ordinance prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation. That ordinance applied to housing, employment and “public accommodation” and exempted religious entities. But city attorney Warren Wilson said in May the Hitching Post would likely be required to follow the ordinance.
Idaho ministers face arrest jail for refusing to perform same-sex weddings - Spokane Conservative Examiner.com
If they were a religious entity they would have been exempted but since they are running a for profit business they have violated the law.
I don't care what the city says. I don't care what you say. We're not going to perform gay marriage.... Period. Jail us. Attack us. Smear us. Whatever you want.
We have a right to run business. We have a right to our religion and beliefs. You don't have a say in the matter.
We're not doing it. Period. You'll have to jail millions of Christians across this country. We're not going away, and we're not going to follow your laws. Sucks to be you.
It is all supposed to be about tolerance of other people...except when that means leaving religious people alone...the first attempts to go after churches are happening and are being beaten back...but this is just the start...like when the lawyers wanted the sermons of ministers...but then they backed off...for now...how about this threat...?
The PJ Tatler Idaho City Threatens to Jail Ministers for Not Performing Gay Weddings
Coeur d’Alene officials told the Knapps privately and also publicly stated that the couple would violate the city’s public accommodations statute once same-sex marriage became legal in Idaho if they declined to perform a same-sex ceremony at their chapel. On Friday, the Knapps respectfully declined such a ceremony and now face up to 180 days in jail and up to $1,000 in fines for each day they decline to perform that ceremony.
“The city somehow expects ordained pastors to flip a switch and turn off all faithfulness to their God and their vows,” explained ADF Legal Counsel Jonathan Scruggs. “The U.S. Constitution as well as federal and state law clearly stand against that. The city cannot mandate across-the-board conformity to its interpretation of a city ordinance in utter disregard for the guaranteed freedoms Americans treasure in our society.”
I disagree. They're a church that performs weddings. I don't see how they must be forced to perform gay weddings, when it directly violates freedom of religion.
Not according to the City.
Additionally, city officials say the chapel is a for-profit business meaning the owners must comply with local non-discrimination ordinances.
In 2013, the city passed an ordinance prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation. That ordinance applied to housing, employment and “public accommodation” and exempted religious entities. But city attorney Warren Wilson said in May the Hitching Post would likely be required to follow the ordinance.
Idaho ministers face arrest jail for refusing to perform same-sex weddings - Spokane Conservative Examiner.com
If they were a religious entity they would have been exempted but since they are running a for profit business they have violated the law.
I don't care what the city says. I don't care what you say. We're not going to perform gay marriage.... Period. Jail us. Attack us. Smear us. Whatever you want.
We have a right to run business. We have a right to our religion and beliefs. You don't have a say in the matter.
We're not doing it. Period. You'll have to jail millions of Christians across this country. We're not going away, and we're not going to follow your laws. Sucks to be you.
It's not a "church" Androw. It's a wedding chapel which is a business that marries people. IF gay marriage is legal there, then they are using discriminatory business practices which is illegal.
Don't care. I said that the first time, and I'll say it every time here after.
Church, business, hobby. It's mine. My hobby... my business.. my church. Not yours. You don't have a right to tell me what to do with it.
"well that law says..."
Don't care.
"but it's not a church..."
Don't care.
"but discrimination...."
I DO NOT CARE.
I have a religious view, and it's not up for debate. That's what freedom of religion means. I can believe the moon is full of hamsters, and Obama is an alien hamster controlling the government, if I so desire to have a such a view.
We are not going to do gay marriage, those of use who believe in the Biblical Christian faith. We not doing it. PERIOD.
Not doing it. PERIOD. Not up for debate, I don't care about your reasons. Not happening.
Well guess what Androw? Discrimination IS against the law. The LAW doesn't care if you don't care. What are you so frightened about? Don't worry, nobody with half a brain would want to join your exclusive little club of judgmental jerks. That is why your churches are losing parishioners. People are realizing that it is not "Godly" to treat other people like crap.
Not according to the City.
Idaho ministers face arrest jail for refusing to perform same-sex weddings - Spokane Conservative Examiner.com
If they were a religious entity they would have been exempted but since they are running a for profit business they have violated the law.
I don't care what the city says. I don't care what you say. We're not going to perform gay marriage.... Period. Jail us. Attack us. Smear us. Whatever you want.
We have a right to run business. We have a right to our religion and beliefs. You don't have a say in the matter.
We're not doing it. Period. You'll have to jail millions of Christians across this country. We're not going away, and we're not going to follow your laws. Sucks to be you.
It's not a "church" Androw. It's a wedding chapel which is a business that marries people. IF gay marriage is legal there, then they are using discriminatory business practices which is illegal.
Don't care. I said that the first time, and I'll say it every time here after.
Church, business, hobby. It's mine. My hobby... my business.. my church. Not yours. You don't have a right to tell me what to do with it.
"well that law says..."
Don't care.
"but it's not a church..."
Don't care.
"but discrimination...."
I DO NOT CARE.
I have a religious view, and it's not up for debate. That's what freedom of religion means. I can believe the moon is full of hamsters, and Obama is an alien hamster controlling the government, if I so desire to have a such a view.
We are not going to do gay marriage, those of use who believe in the Biblical Christian faith. We not doing it. PERIOD.
Not doing it. PERIOD. Not up for debate, I don't care about your reasons. Not happening.
Well guess what Androw? Discrimination IS against the law. The LAW doesn't care if you don't care. What are you so frightened about? Don't worry, nobody with half a brain would want to join your exclusive little club of judgmental jerks. That is why your churches are losing parishioners. People are realizing that it is not "Godly" to treat other people like crap.
Um... actually my church is growing. So... apparently people are realizing that it IS Godly. lol
I'm not frightened at all!
If I was scared... then I'd be worried about your laws, and your courts, and your regulations and statutes and anti-discrimination rules.
If I was really worried, I'd be asking these laws be repealed. I haven't said that at all.
I'm not. I'm just telling you straight up, I'm not scared, not going to follow your laws, and you are not going to stop me. Make all the laws you wish. Not going to follow them. Oh well.
And I don't care if no one joins my "exclusive little club of judgmental jerks" or not. I don't live my life to please you. If you think I'm terrible..... ok. If you think I'm great.... ok. I'm good either way.
Now, I'm not intentionally trying to piss people off, but I'm also not going to squeeze myself into whatever mold you demand. I'm going to live out my faith. You can like it, or hate it, but you are not going to change it.
Don't care what laws you pass. Not going to follow them. Don't care what fines you give. I'm not going to pay them.
So? It was still the argument used by the Circuit court judge who ruled against the Lovings.Bullpucky. There were plenty of interracial marriages in American history:
You're the one not responding straight on. Address the point, please, and quit trying to change the argument. In group or out of group has nothing to do with the fact that claiming there's no discrimination because no one is restricted from marrying at all is a poor argument that didn't work with race and won't w work with gender.The claim that homosexuals face no barriers to marriage because they are free to marry someone of the opposite sex is identical to the argument that anti-miscegenation laws were no barrier to marriage because people could marry in their own race.
No matter how much you shuck and jive you won't be able to make a facile argument into one of substance. There have ALWAYS been two forms of marriage - in-group and out-group in history.
it's never been a generally accepted practice, but same sex marriages, formal and informal have gone on for millennia.Men "marrying" other men has never been a practice.
The fact that you like to have sex with your mother and daughters is your own business. Though you might be confessing to a crime, so I'd be careful.If it makes you feel any better, I too am oppressed. I can't "marry" my mother nor my daughters. When are you going to fix that "injustice?"
If they are adults it isn't a crime. It might not suit you but two of the same gender don't suit others. Gays can't have kids so what is your good secular argument if one or both relatives are sterilized? They're in the same boat. Maybe it's a mother and daughter of age. What's the good secular argument against polygamy? You are simply imposing your moral values onto others while condemning the imposition of the majority's moral values. It makes no sense.The fact that you like to have sex with your mother and daughters is your own business. Though you might be confessing to a crime, so I'd be careful.
However, there are good, secular reasons to forbid incest, and polygamy, while there are no longer good secular reasons against homosexuality or same sex marriage
Not according to the City.
Idaho ministers face arrest jail for refusing to perform same-sex weddings - Spokane Conservative Examiner.com
If they were a religious entity they would have been exempted but since they are running a for profit business they have violated the law.
I don't care what the city says. I don't care what you say. We're not going to perform gay marriage.... Period. Jail us. Attack us. Smear us. Whatever you want.
We have a right to run business. We have a right to our religion and beliefs. You don't have a say in the matter.
We're not doing it. Period. You'll have to jail millions of Christians across this country. We're not going away, and we're not going to follow your laws. Sucks to be you.
It's not a "church" Androw. It's a wedding chapel which is a business that marries people. IF gay marriage is legal there, then they are using discriminatory business practices which is illegal.
Don't care. I said that the first time, and I'll say it every time here after.
Church, business, hobby. It's mine. My hobby... my business.. my church. Not yours. You don't have a right to tell me what to do with it.
"well that law says..."
Don't care.
"but it's not a church..."
Don't care.
"but discrimination...."
I DO NOT CARE.
I have a religious view, and it's not up for debate. That's what freedom of religion means. I can believe the moon is full of hamsters, and Obama is an alien hamster controlling the government, if I so desire to have a such a view.
We are not going to do gay marriage, those of use who believe in the Biblical Christian faith. We not doing it. PERIOD.
Not doing it. PERIOD. Not up for debate, I don't care about your reasons. Not happening.
Well guess what Androw? Discrimination IS against the law. The LAW doesn't care if you don't care. What are you so frightened about? Don't worry, nobody with half a brain would want to join your exclusive little club of judgmental jerks. That is why your churches are losing parishioners. People are realizing that it is not "Godly" to treat other people like crap.
Um... actually my church is growing. So... apparently people are realizing that it IS Godly. lol
I'm not frightened at all!
If I was scared... then I'd be worried about your laws, and your courts, and your regulations and statutes and anti-discrimination rules.
If I was really worried, I'd be asking these laws be repealed. I haven't said that at all.
I'm not. I'm just telling you straight up, I'm not scared, not going to follow your laws, and you are not going to stop me. Make all the laws you wish. Not going to follow them. Oh well.
And I don't care if no one joins my "exclusive little club of judgmental jerks" or not. I don't live my life to please you. If you think I'm terrible..... ok. If you think I'm great.... ok. I'm good either way.
Now, I'm not intentionally trying to piss people off, but I'm also not going to squeeze myself into whatever mold you demand. I'm going to live out my faith. You can like it, or hate it, but you are not going to change it.
Don't care what laws you pass. Not going to follow them. Don't care what fines you give. I'm not going to pay them.
