Home invasion...thank goodness victims didn't have a gun...grandfather was beaten to death though...

[Lonestar_logic]

Brain....you are the one who makes things up...the study is the study...you say it only records criminals, I explain why it can't, and you accuse me of making things up....I give you 16 actual studies that report the defensive use of guns by Americans...you say they are all made up....and then make up your own number that to you "sounds right.".....so please, don't project onto me the things you do to justify your anti gun beliefs.....

Brain lies to you. You both know it.

Prove it.

Just pick any one of your post.

Then you go for it.

Too easy.

 

[westwall]

Don't forget, in a Progressive Utopia, the police come and shoot everyone

And then the progressives complain about police violence.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

The only reason to reinforce the home is to give you more time to prepare your firearm and yourself.
It's not like reaching the nightstand will take more than a second but I would like a few extra seconds to get in a good firing position.

How many times have you had to defend your home? Are you closely related to criminals like this couple?

I've already told you at least once that I stopped a home invasion robbery attempted by three mexicans,who I can assure you I didnt know.
Thank God for sawed off 870's....

How did you know they were Mexicans? Let's hear the details again.

I suppose they could have been from anyone of those "south american countries"
I didnt really discuss their country of origin with them.

Basically they came to my door claiming car trouble and they wanted to come inside to use the phone. I told the wife to get the cordless phone and about that time I noticed one had a cell phone in his hand. It became obvious that he knew I was on to them because at that point he started to bum rush me.
I dropped the shotgun I was holding in my right hand behind the door jam across the open door and brought it up.
They fell all over themselves scrambling back into their "broken down" vehicle and hauled ass.

Interesting. Describe this bum rush. Through the door?

Whats to explain? The dude with the phone was standing behind two others and he realized I saw his phone. At that point he started to push between his two buddies in an aggressive manner. Shotgun comes out and they haul ass in their broken down car.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

I don't know if you understand how long it takes for someone to break into a home and attack someone. Try less than 30 seconds because a door can be broken down in about 5-10 seconds. So we are all supposed to sleep with one eye open and a gun in our hand? Do you know how many accidental killings happen that way?

How many?

Sorry, this is a sorry-assed argument for owning a gun.

This is exactly the reason for owning a gun you stupid fuck.

 

[Brain357]

How many times have you had to defend your home? Are you closely related to criminals like this couple?

I've already told you at least once that I stopped a home invasion robbery attempted by three mexicans,who I can assure you I didnt know.
Thank God for sawed off 870's....

How did you know they were Mexicans? Let's hear the details again.

I suppose they could have been from anyone of those "south american countries"
I didnt really discuss their country of origin with them.

Basically they came to my door claiming car trouble and they wanted to come inside to use the phone. I told the wife to get the cordless phone and about that time I noticed one had a cell phone in his hand. It became obvious that he knew I was on to them because at that point he started to bum rush me.
I dropped the shotgun I was holding in my right hand behind the door jam across the open door and brought it up.
They fell all over themselves scrambling back into their "broken down" vehicle and hauled ass.

Interesting. Describe this bum rush. Through the door?

Whats to explain? The dude with the phone was standing behind two others and he realized I saw his phone. At that point he started to push between his two buddies in an aggressive manner. Shotgun comes out and they haul ass in their broken down car.

So he was standing behind two other guys and you still noticed his phone? Was he holding it over his head?

Did you call the police or let them move on to their next victim?

 

[The Professor]

Don't forget, in a Progressive Utopia, the police come and shoot everyone

Except the blacks -- a police officer can never have a legitimate need to shoot a black person.

Yet they do it all the time and with impunity, unless you hadn't noticed. Let me know when the police officers who shot Eric Garner, Michael Brown and Tamir Rice go to jail....dumbass.

There are several flaws in your argument:

First, Eric Garner – a career criminal - was not shot. His death was due to a heart attack, probably caused by his poor physical condition and the excitement of the confrontation with police; however, his supporters blamed it on a choke-hold done by a policeman. Contrary to what his supporters believe, the evidence shows that the coke-hold did not kill him and he died later in the hospital due to a heart attack. I have no idea what made you think he was shot. You are obviously uninformed and have an agenda.

Second, Michael Brown was shot because he was charging a policeman after having already hit him in the face, attempted to take his weapon and refused a lawful order to stop and get on the ground. Moments before this, Michael Brown had committed a strong-armed robbery in a local convenience store. The evidence proved beyond the possibility of rational debate that Officer Wilson had a right to use deadly force against Brown. What do you think Wilson should have done? Let the thug attack him? Get real.

Third, the Tamir Rice case is sad indeed. The young man was pointing what turned out to be a toy gun at random people. However, it did not have the required distinctive orange tip so the police had reason to believe it was real. The police acted reasonably in order to protect themselves and the public. The idiot who modified the toy gun to make it look real is the real culprit, but it appears that no one gives a damn who did it. Do you know who did it? I tried to find out but couldn't. The ignorant asshole, whoever he/she is, caused an innocent young man to die. If Tamir Rice did it, than he got what he deserved. Sad but undeniably true.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

I've already told you at least once that I stopped a home invasion robbery attempted by three mexicans,who I can assure you I didnt know.
Thank God for sawed off 870's....

How did you know they were Mexicans? Let's hear the details again.

I suppose they could have been from anyone of those "south american countries"
I didnt really discuss their country of origin with them.

Basically they came to my door claiming car trouble and they wanted to come inside to use the phone. I told the wife to get the cordless phone and about that time I noticed one had a cell phone in his hand. It became obvious that he knew I was on to them because at that point he started to bum rush me.
I dropped the shotgun I was holding in my right hand behind the door jam across the open door and brought it up.
They fell all over themselves scrambling back into their "broken down" vehicle and hauled ass.

Interesting. Describe this bum rush. Through the door?

Whats to explain? The dude with the phone was standing behind two others and he realized I saw his phone. At that point he started to push between his two buddies in an aggressive manner. Shotgun comes out and they haul ass in their broken down car.

So he was standing behind two other guys and you still noticed his phone? Was he holding it over his head?

Did you call the police or let them move on to their next victim?

Happened exactly how I said it did. Dont really care if you believe it or not to tell you the truth.
No sense in calling the cops. What are you going to tell em? Three mexicans in an 82 Cutlass with different colored primer quarter panels?
Yeah they'll get right on it...and stop every mexican they see in a beat to shit 82 Cutlass....in Houston.

 

[Brain357]

Brain....you are the one who makes things up...the study is the study...you say it only records criminals, I explain why it can't, and you accuse me of making things up....I give you 16 actual studies that report the defensive use of guns by Americans...you say they are all made up....and then make up your own number that to you "sounds right.".....so please, don't project onto me the things you do to justify your anti gun beliefs.....

Brain lies to you. You both know it.

Prove it.

Just pick any one of your post.

Then you go for it.

Too easy.

So you can't either. Don't talk if you can't back it up.

 

[Brain357]

How did you know they were Mexicans? Let's hear the details again.

I suppose they could have been from anyone of those "south american countries"
I didnt really discuss their country of origin with them.

Basically they came to my door claiming car trouble and they wanted to come inside to use the phone. I told the wife to get the cordless phone and about that time I noticed one had a cell phone in his hand. It became obvious that he knew I was on to them because at that point he started to bum rush me.
I dropped the shotgun I was holding in my right hand behind the door jam across the open door and brought it up.
They fell all over themselves scrambling back into their "broken down" vehicle and hauled ass.

Interesting. Describe this bum rush. Through the door?

Whats to explain? The dude with the phone was standing behind two others and he realized I saw his phone. At that point he started to push between his two buddies in an aggressive manner. Shotgun comes out and they haul ass in their broken down car.

So he was standing behind two other guys and you still noticed his phone? Was he holding it over his head?

Did you call the police or let them move on to their next victim?

Happened exactly how I said it did. Dont really care if you believe it or not to tell you the truth.
No sense in calling the cops. What are you going to tell em? Three mexicans in an 82 Cutlass with different colored primer quarter panels?
Yeah they'll get right on it...and stop every mexican they see in a beat to shit 82 Cutlass....in Houston.

How big is the window in your door that you could see the guy behind the other two guys?

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

I suppose they could have been from anyone of those "south american countries"
I didnt really discuss their country of origin with them.

Basically they came to my door claiming car trouble and they wanted to come inside to use the phone. I told the wife to get the cordless phone and about that time I noticed one had a cell phone in his hand. It became obvious that he knew I was on to them because at that point he started to bum rush me.
I dropped the shotgun I was holding in my right hand behind the door jam across the open door and brought it up.
They fell all over themselves scrambling back into their "broken down" vehicle and hauled ass.

Interesting. Describe this bum rush. Through the door?

Whats to explain? The dude with the phone was standing behind two others and he realized I saw his phone. At that point he started to push between his two buddies in an aggressive manner. Shotgun comes out and they haul ass in their broken down car.

So he was standing behind two other guys and you still noticed his phone? Was he holding it over his head?

Did you call the police or let them move on to their next victim?

Happened exactly how I said it did. Dont really care if you believe it or not to tell you the truth.
No sense in calling the cops. What are you going to tell em? Three mexicans in an 82 Cutlass with different colored primer quarter panels?
Yeah they'll get right on it...and stop every mexican they see in a beat to shit 82 Cutlass....in Houston.

How big is the window in your door that you could see the guy behind the other two guys?

The door was open dipshit. How would I have known why they were even there if I hadnt opened the door?
Sorry but the Sherlock routine aint gonna get you anywhere.

 

[Brain357]

How did you know they were Mexicans? Let's hear the details again.

I suppose they could have been from anyone of those "south american countries"
I didnt really discuss their country of origin with them.

Basically they came to my door claiming car trouble and they wanted to come inside to use the phone. I told the wife to get the cordless phone and about that time I noticed one had a cell phone in his hand. It became obvious that he knew I was on to them because at that point he started to bum rush me.
I dropped the shotgun I was holding in my right hand behind the door jam across the open door and brought it up.
They fell all over themselves scrambling back into their "broken down" vehicle and hauled ass.

Interesting. Describe this bum rush. Through the door?

Whats to explain? The dude with the phone was standing behind two others and he realized I saw his phone. At that point he started to push between his two buddies in an aggressive manner. Shotgun comes out and they haul ass in their broken down car.

So he was standing behind two other guys and you still noticed his phone? Was he holding it over his head?

Did you call the police or let them move on to their next victim?

Happened exactly how I said it did. Dont really care if you believe it or not to tell you the truth.
No sense in calling the cops. What are you going to tell em? Three mexicans in an 82 Cutlass with different colored primer quarter panels?
Yeah they'll get right on it...and stop every mexican they see in a beat to shit 82 Cutlass....in Houston.

How did you know they were Mexicans? Let's hear the details again.

I suppose they could have been from anyone of those "south american countries"
I didnt really discuss their country of origin with them.

Basically they came to my door claiming car trouble and they wanted to come inside to use the phone. I told the wife to get the cordless phone and about that time I noticed one had a cell phone in his hand. It became obvious that he knew I was on to them because at that point he started to bum rush me.
I dropped the shotgun I was holding in my right hand behind the door jam across the open door and brought it up.
They fell all over themselves scrambling back into their "broken down" vehicle and hauled ass.

Interesting. Describe this bum rush. Through the door?

Whats to explain? The dude with the phone was standing behind two others and he realized I saw his phone. At that point he started to push between his two buddies in an aggressive manner. Shotgun comes out and they haul ass in their broken down car.

So he was standing behind two other guys and you still noticed his phone? Was he holding it over his head?

Did you call the police or let them move on to their next victim?

Happened exactly how I said it did. Dont really care if you believe it or not to tell you the truth.
No sense in calling the cops. What are you going to tell em? Three mexicans in an 82 Cutlass with different colored primer quarter panels?
Yeah they'll get right on it...and stop every mexican they see in a beat to shit 82 Cutlass....in Houston.

How long ago was this?

 

[bodecea]

2. However, 100 children die each year from unintentional gun incidents.

300,000,000 guns in the US
100 accidental gun-related deaths involving children.
You think this makes some sort of point against guns?

You're right...incidental.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

I suppose they could have been from anyone of those "south american countries"
I didnt really discuss their country of origin with them.

Basically they came to my door claiming car trouble and they wanted to come inside to use the phone. I told the wife to get the cordless phone and about that time I noticed one had a cell phone in his hand. It became obvious that he knew I was on to them because at that point he started to bum rush me.
I dropped the shotgun I was holding in my right hand behind the door jam across the open door and brought it up.
They fell all over themselves scrambling back into their "broken down" vehicle and hauled ass.

Interesting. Describe this bum rush. Through the door?

Whats to explain? The dude with the phone was standing behind two others and he realized I saw his phone. At that point he started to push between his two buddies in an aggressive manner. Shotgun comes out and they haul ass in their broken down car.

So he was standing behind two other guys and you still noticed his phone? Was he holding it over his head?

Did you call the police or let them move on to their next victim?

Happened exactly how I said it did. Dont really care if you believe it or not to tell you the truth.
No sense in calling the cops. What are you going to tell em? Three mexicans in an 82 Cutlass with different colored primer quarter panels?
Yeah they'll get right on it...and stop every mexican they see in a beat to shit 82 Cutlass....in Houston.

I suppose they could have been from anyone of those "south american countries"
I didnt really discuss their country of origin with them.

Basically they came to my door claiming car trouble and they wanted to come inside to use the phone. I told the wife to get the cordless phone and about that time I noticed one had a cell phone in his hand. It became obvious that he knew I was on to them because at that point he started to bum rush me.
I dropped the shotgun I was holding in my right hand behind the door jam across the open door and brought it up.
They fell all over themselves scrambling back into their "broken down" vehicle and hauled ass.

Interesting. Describe this bum rush. Through the door?

Whats to explain? The dude with the phone was standing behind two others and he realized I saw his phone. At that point he started to push between his two buddies in an aggressive manner. Shotgun comes out and they haul ass in their broken down car.

So he was standing behind two other guys and you still noticed his phone? Was he holding it over his head?

Did you call the police or let them move on to their next victim?

Happened exactly how I said it did. Dont really care if you believe it or not to tell you the truth.
No sense in calling the cops. What are you going to tell em? Three mexicans in an 82 Cutlass with different colored primer quarter panels?
Yeah they'll get right on it...and stop every mexican they see in a beat to shit 82 Cutlass....in Houston.

How long ago was this?

I dont mind telling you ..but I have to ask,what difference does that make?

 

[Brain357]

Interesting. Describe this bum rush. Through the door?

Whats to explain? The dude with the phone was standing behind two others and he realized I saw his phone. At that point he started to push between his two buddies in an aggressive manner. Shotgun comes out and they haul ass in their broken down car.

So he was standing behind two other guys and you still noticed his phone? Was he holding it over his head?

Did you call the police or let them move on to their next victim?

Happened exactly how I said it did. Dont really care if you believe it or not to tell you the truth.
No sense in calling the cops. What are you going to tell em? Three mexicans in an 82 Cutlass with different colored primer quarter panels?
Yeah they'll get right on it...and stop every mexican they see in a beat to shit 82 Cutlass....in Houston.

Interesting. Describe this bum rush. Through the door?

Whats to explain? The dude with the phone was standing behind two others and he realized I saw his phone. At that point he started to push between his two buddies in an aggressive manner. Shotgun comes out and they haul ass in their broken down car.

So he was standing behind two other guys and you still noticed his phone? Was he holding it over his head?

Did you call the police or let them move on to their next victim?

Happened exactly how I said it did. Dont really care if you believe it or not to tell you the truth.
No sense in calling the cops. What are you going to tell em? Three mexicans in an 82 Cutlass with different colored primer quarter panels?
Yeah they'll get right on it...and stop every mexican they see in a beat to shit 82 Cutlass....in Houston.

How long ago was this?

I dont mind telling you ..but I have to ask,what difference does that make?

I'm curious. Most surveys are asking for defenses in the last 3-5 years. Was curious if yours would qualify.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Whats to explain? The dude with the phone was standing behind two others and he realized I saw his phone. At that point he started to push between his two buddies in an aggressive manner. Shotgun comes out and they haul ass in their broken down car.

So he was standing behind two other guys and you still noticed his phone? Was he holding it over his head?

Did you call the police or let them move on to their next victim?

Happened exactly how I said it did. Dont really care if you believe it or not to tell you the truth.
No sense in calling the cops. What are you going to tell em? Three mexicans in an 82 Cutlass with different colored primer quarter panels?
Yeah they'll get right on it...and stop every mexican they see in a beat to shit 82 Cutlass....in Houston.

Whats to explain? The dude with the phone was standing behind two others and he realized I saw his phone. At that point he started to push between his two buddies in an aggressive manner. Shotgun comes out and they haul ass in their broken down car.

So he was standing behind two other guys and you still noticed his phone? Was he holding it over his head?

Did you call the police or let them move on to their next victim?

Happened exactly how I said it did. Dont really care if you believe it or not to tell you the truth.
No sense in calling the cops. What are you going to tell em? Three mexicans in an 82 Cutlass with different colored primer quarter panels?
Yeah they'll get right on it...and stop every mexican they see in a beat to shit 82 Cutlass....in Houston.

How long ago was this?

I dont mind telling you ..but I have to ask,what difference does that make?

I'm curious. Most surveys are asking for defenses in the last 3-5 years. Was curious if yours would qualify.

This was around 25 years ago.

 

[The Professor]

While that might be a one off story, here is the reality.

1. Only 28% of home invasions are when people are home and only 5.7% of robberies result in some violence. Also in the study, only 20 homes out of 1,000 were burglarized from 2000 to 2007. So you have a 2% chance within 7 years of getting robbed and the numbers are even less than that where the robbery would turn into something violent.

2. However, 100 children die each year from unintentional gun incidents.

3. Having a gun in the house makes people unsafe. Women are three times more likely to be killed with a gun in the household, even when domestic abuse is not a factor. (Entire study here). When there is a gun in the house, there is a higher rate of suicide and homicide in those homes.

I know the phrase:

"Well its better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it."

True if people weren't actually people. When you have a gun, it wields so much power. That's why men with serious issues of control love it, it makes them feel in control and they can make people do what they want. POWER!!!

However, that zeal for power leads people to do stupid things with the gun that get people killed. I don't think guns should be banned but there needs to be regulations in place to regulate the idiots who buy guns.

The biggest flaw in your argument is that you consider only the negative aspects of gun ownership. You fail to consider the positive aspects, such as saving lives and preventing rape or other serious injuries. You are concerned that 100 children are accidentally killed each year by guns in the home. That is indeed tragic and we should do what we can to reduce the number of such deaths. You also observed that “When there is a gun in the house, there is a higher rate of suicide and homicide in those homes.” I am sure that almost everyone shares your concern for such sad loss of life. I wish you had given the actual number of suicides instead of giving vague comparisons; however, for the record approximately 20,000 commit suicide with a gun each year. These numbers are important. Here is one link that shows suicides for one year. I assure you that the rates are the same for other recent years.

Guns Suicide The Hidden Toll Magazine Features Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health Magazine Features
As tragic as accidental deaths and suicides are, the actual numbers are significantly lower when compared to the number of lives which are saved by gun ownership. Many reputable studies have shown that far more lives are saved by gun ownership than are lost by gun suicides and gun accidents. One survey showed that guns used for self-protection saved 162,000 lives a year which is a lot more than the number of people who killed themselves with a gun, each year, in fact over eight times as many:

“A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 0.5% of households had members who had used a gun for defense during a situation in which they thought someone 'almost certainly would have been killed' if they 'had not used a gun for protection.' Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 162,000 such incidents per year. This figure excludes all 'military service, police work, or work as a security guard.'"


So assuming that each year there are 100 children who are accidentally killed and 20,000 people who commit suicide with a gun, there are over 162,00 lives that are saved by guns. As bad as you think owing a gun can be, it is statistically obvious that not owing a gun can be far worse.

 

[Vandalshandle]

While your argument is well stated, I think it is quite a stretch to assume that the data from 4,077 households can be applied to a nation with 300,000,000 people. Especially because of the diversity of the population. I suspect that few people in Iowa know anyone who had to draw down on anybody, and few people in the inner city of New Orleans who do NOT know someone who had to draw down on someone.

 

[Brain357]

So he was standing behind two other guys and you still noticed his phone? Was he holding it over his head?

Did you call the police or let them move on to their next victim?

Happened exactly how I said it did. Dont really care if you believe it or not to tell you the truth.
No sense in calling the cops. What are you going to tell em? Three mexicans in an 82 Cutlass with different colored primer quarter panels?
Yeah they'll get right on it...and stop every mexican they see in a beat to shit 82 Cutlass....in Houston.

So he was standing behind two other guys and you still noticed his phone? Was he holding it over his head?

Did you call the police or let them move on to their next victim?

Happened exactly how I said it did. Dont really care if you believe it or not to tell you the truth.
No sense in calling the cops. What are you going to tell em? Three mexicans in an 82 Cutlass with different colored primer quarter panels?
Yeah they'll get right on it...and stop every mexican they see in a beat to shit 82 Cutlass....in Houston.

How long ago was this?

I dont mind telling you ..but I have to ask,what difference does that make?

I'm curious. Most surveys are asking for defenses in the last 3-5 years. Was curious if yours would qualify.

This was around 25 years ago.

Interesting. That brings us to about 1990. No wonder you noticed they were carrying a cell phone. Those were quite rare back then and very big. These must have been some very dumb criminals. Walking up to the door with their very rare big cell phone asking to make a call. It's almost unbelievable.
Cell Phone Subscribers in the U.S. 1985 2010

 

[The Professor]

While your argument is well stated, I think it is quite a stretch to assume that the data from 4,077 households can be applied to a nation with 300,000,000 people. Especially because of the diversity of the population. I suspect that few people in Iowa know anyone who had to draw down on anybody, and few people in the inner city of New Orleans who do NOT know someone who had to draw down on someone.

While your argument is well stated, I think it is quite a stretch to assume that the data from 4,077 households can be applied to a nation with 300,000,000 people. Especially because of the diversity of the population. I suspect that few people in Iowa know anyone who had to draw down on anybody, and few people in the inner city of New Orleans who do NOT know someone who had to draw down on someone.

I agree that I might have been able to find a more statistically significant study if I had taken more time to search. However, I think a sample size of 4,977 is sufficient, assuming the survey was properly conducted. Whether or not a sample size is sufficient must be determined by three factors: (1) the population size; (2) the confidence level; and (3) the margin of error. Actually, the confidence level and margin of error are more important than the population size. If the population size is 300,000,000 and there is a 95 percent confidence level and a margin of error of 5%, a sample size of only 385 is sufficient. If there is 99 percent confidence level and a margin of error of two percent, a sufficient sample size is 4,161.

Here is a link that can help you calculate a proper sample size.

Sample Size Calculator

Note: Generally sample sizes of 1,000 are sufficient for national surveys. Here are a few of many links that will confirm this:

Determining Appropriate Sample Size
FAQs NCPP - National Council on Public Polls

Now, with all due respect to each of you, I am done with this thread.

Have a good night and a great day.

 

[Correll]

Interesting. Describe this bum rush. Through the door?

Whats to explain? The dude with the phone was standing behind two others and he realized I saw his phone. At that point he started to push between his two buddies in an aggressive manner. Shotgun comes out and they haul ass in their broken down car.

So he was standing behind two other guys and you still noticed his phone? Was he holding it over his head?

Did you call the police or let them move on to their next victim?

Happened exactly how I said it did. Dont really care if you believe it or not to tell you the truth.
No sense in calling the cops. What are you going to tell em? Three mexicans in an 82 Cutlass with different colored primer quarter panels?
Yeah they'll get right on it...and stop every mexican they see in a beat to shit 82 Cutlass....in Houston.

How big is the window in your door that you could see the guy behind the other two guys?

The door was open dipshit. How would I have known why they were even there if I hadnt opened the door?
Sorry but the Sherlock routine aint gonna get you anywhere.

He needs to believe that you are lying.

Any discrepancy, in a remembered incident from 25 years ago, that took place in seconds and undress extreme stress, will be "proof" that you are making it up, and thus another defensive use of a gun can be ignored.