Hospital removing transplant patients for being unvaxxed

[strollingbones]

My doctors are only seeing Vaxed patients.

 

[hadit]

Is giving it to them killing the person waiting behind them?

Several things about that.

1. Every recipient that gets an organ "takes" it from all the other matched people on the waiting list. A <insert favorite very bad person here> can "take" an organ from a <insert favorite very good person here> if they are a better match for the organ. There are multiple criteria that determine a match's quality, and if I meet more of them than you do, I get the organ and you don't.
2. The list is completely generated from the ground up with every new donor organ and the criteria for matching does not include how long you've been on the list. IOW, when the match is run, the most compatible recipient is the first one whose doctor is offered the organ. If he rejects it, the next one down gets the offer and so on. That means that someone can wait on the list for years and die while waiting while someone else can go on and match in the first week. Lots of people do die, BTW, on the list. We have an "opt-in" system, which means people have to volunteer to donate, and there's a shortage of organs. Know who doesn't have such a bad shortage? Spain, which has an "opt-out" system. If you die, you are presumed to be a donor unless you've specifically opted out.
3. When the match is run, there is no consideration given to who "deserves" it more than anyone else on the list. Remember when Dick Cheney got his heart transplant? He was listed under an alias and no one even knew he was in the system. His fame didn't influence the match at all.

My point is, when it comes to matching organs for transplants, the system doesn't care, it's all automated and is launched by the donor's doctor. All he's looking for is a recipient for organs that he deems transplantable and he doesn't care who gets the organs. The automated matching algorithm doesn't care who matches, all it's doing is finding the most compatible recipient. The recipient's doctor doesn't care how his patient got sick, all he wants is a good organ for transplant to save his patient's life. The only one who cares is you, someone totally uninvolved in the decision. All the people involved in making the decision don't care.

There is promising research into growing replacement organs from a person's own stem cells, and when that finally matures, the whole matching process will be obsolete and the shortage of organs won't be a problem any more.

 

[hadit]

So which is worse? Taking a person off the list for not meeting the requirements and having them die, or leaving them on the list, then because they are immuno-suppressed to prevent rejection after the transplant, they get COVID and die, wasting a perfectly good liver on someone who did not do what was required to get it in the first place, possibly killing a second person who could have used that organ?

What do you think happens to a person who destroys their liver with alcohol or drugs and then relapses while waiting for the transplant? They get removed from the list and likely will die very quickly! Why? They are not healthy enough to possibly waste a liver on!

I have some lymph nodes near my liver that are enlarged, indicating possible lymphoma. Do you have any idea how any tests and procedures I have undergone to ensure I don't have cancer? I have had countless blood tests, an MRI every 6 months for 2 years, 2 PET scans, and 2 endoscopic biopsies, and they still are not convinced. They don't give livers to cancer patients.

If the doctor makes the determination that a patient will not survive very long with a donated organ, that patient will not be put on the transplant list. Yes, a cancer patient does not get a transplant. In this case, however, we have a disease that is not guaranteed to even make people sick, much less kill them. By making a blanket determination that everyone who does not get a vaccine is going to die, you're handing a lot of people an unjustified death sentence. The doctor needs flexibility to make that determination on a case by case basis, and we don't yet have enough solid data to definitively say that this person will die and that person will not.

This whole argument is really being driven by the shortage of organs for donation. Why do we have such a low donation rate? Freedom of choice. We have no problem sentencing thousands of people to death because people can't be bothered to get a donor decal for their driver's license, but we can't allow people to choose whether they want to be vaccinated or not.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

If the doctor makes the determination that a patient will not survive very long with a donated organ, that patient will not be put on the transplant list. Yes, a cancer patient does not get a transplant. In this case, however, we have a disease that is not guaranteed to even make people sick, much less kill them. By making a blanket determination that everyone who does not get a vaccine is going to die, you're handing a lot of people an unjustified death sentence. The doctor needs flexibility to make that determination on a case by case basis, and we don't yet have enough solid data to definitively say that this person will die and that person will not.

This whole argument is really being driven by the shortage of organs for donation. Why do we have such a low donation rate? Freedom of choice. We have no problem sentencing thousands of people to death because people can't be bothered to get a donor decal for their driver's license, but we can't allow people to choose whether they want to be vaccinated or not.

Sorry! You are simply wrong. If you don't get a vaccine, you don't get a transplant, just like if you have cancer, you won't get a transplant in most cases. It is only right not to waste such a limited option for those needing a transplant.

Should transplant patients be required to get the pneumonia or flu vaccine? I had to have both before I was even eligible for the listing, and I will have to take a flu shot again in October, or I will not be eligible.

 

[hadit]

Sorry! You are simply wrong. If you don't get a vaccine, you don't get a transplant, just like if you have cancer, you won't get a transplant in most cases. It is only right not to waste such a limited option for those needing a transplant.

Should transplant patients be required to get the pneumonia or flu vaccine? I had to have both before I was even eligible for the listing, and I will have to take a flu shot again in October, or I will not be eligible.

And the doctors are the ones to make that determination based on medical science, not someone's desire to punish political opponents.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

And the doctors are the ones to make that determination based on medical science, not someone's desire to punish political opponents.

What the heck does that have to do with what I said? There are no political opponents in the process.

 

[hadit]

What the heck does that have to do with what I said? There are no political opponents in the process.

On this thread there certainly are, and none of us has standing to enforce anything at all.

 

[Orangecat]

Notice how I provided reasons and all you did was call my opinion shit?! Haha. Child

Bullshit, kid.
You asked for reasons not to take the experimental vaccine, I gave them, and you started tap-dancing.
I never asked you for reasons why you got jabbed.
Grow the fuck up.

 

[Donald H]

It's far past time when all Americans should start to behave like responsible adults and just get vaccinated as quickly as possible.

The situation is worse than most realize and the medical community is holding back some hard facts to prevent a mass panic. This isn't Trump's ridiculous politics anymore, it's a matter of life or death. Many, many deaths.

best wishes from Canada.

 

[Orangecat]

best wishes from Canada.

Fuck off, Canada. MYOFB.

 

[Slade3200]

Several things about that.

1. Every recipient that gets an organ "takes" it from all the other matched people on the waiting list. A <insert favorite very bad person here> can "take" an organ from a <insert favorite very good person here> if they are a better match for the organ. There are multiple criteria that determine a match's quality, and if I meet more of them than you do, I get the organ and you don't.
2. The list is completely generated from the ground up with every new donor organ and the criteria for matching does not include how long you've been on the list. IOW, when the match is run, the most compatible recipient is the first one whose doctor is offered the organ. If he rejects it, the next one down gets the offer and so on. That means that someone can wait on the list for years and die while waiting while someone else can go on and match in the first week. Lots of people do die, BTW, on the list. We have an "opt-in" system, which means people have to volunteer to donate, and there's a shortage of organs. Know who doesn't have such a bad shortage? Spain, which has an "opt-out" system. If you die, you are presumed to be a donor unless you've specifically opted out.
3. When the match is run, there is no consideration given to who "deserves" it more than anyone else on the list. Remember when Dick Cheney got his heart transplant? He was listed under an alias and no one even knew he was in the system. His fame didn't influence the match at all.

My point is, when it comes to matching organs for transplants, the system doesn't care, it's all automated and is launched by the donor's doctor. All he's looking for is a recipient for organs that he deems transplantable and he doesn't care who gets the organs. The automated matching algorithm doesn't care who matches, all it's doing is finding the most compatible recipient. The recipient's doctor doesn't care how his patient got sick, all he wants is a good organ for transplant to save his patient's life. The only one who cares is you, someone totally uninvolved in the decision. All the people involved in making the decision don't care.

There is promising research into growing replacement organs from a person's own stem cells, and when that finally matures, the whole matching process will be obsolete and the shortage of organs won't be a problem any more.

Ok, so isn’t this hospital simply updating their criteria for running matches to include vaccinated individuals?

 

[Slade3200]

Bullshit, kid.
You asked for reasons not to take the experimental vaccine, I gave them, and you started tap-dancing.
I never asked you for reasons why you got jabbed.
Grow the fuck up.

Wow, well isn’t that smart thinking on your part! Hey guess what… I can list a few reasons why you shouldn’t get off the tracks when a train is speeding your way…. You’re scared to move… you don’t know where to go… you know the train conductor and he’s a dick… you don’t like the outfit you’re wearing that day… you might trip over the tracks and bump your head.

hows that, did I get your idiot logic right?!

 

[westwall]

Ok, so isn’t this hospital simply updating their criteria for running matches to include vaccinated individuals?

So it appears. The problem is the vaccine is risky for some patients. It actually has a chance, a very real chance to kill cardiac patients.

 

[Orangecat]

Wow, well isn’t that smart thinking on your part! Hey guess what… I can list a few reasons why you shouldn’t get off the tracks when a train is speeding your way…. You’re scared to move… you don’t know where to go… you know the train conductor and he’s a dick… you don’t like the outfit you’re wearing that day… you might trip over the tracks and bump your head.

hows that, did I get your idiot logic right?!

More tap-dancing from you. You haven't the intellectual capacity to hold an adult conversation. Enjoy your bliss, kid.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

probably... why don't you just get vaxed and save yourself the trouble?

Cause they may not be 100% safe

Vaccines are safe

Then why won’t the FDA fully approve them and with young kids, which I have I am a little concerned? COVID19 rarely impacts children so why are we pushing vaccines on them when we don’t quite know everything yet...

www.usmessageboard.com

 

[Slade3200]

So it appears. The problem is the vaccine is risky for some patients. It actually has a chance, a very real chance to kill cardiac patients.

And do you think Doctors are requiring those who are at a health risk of taking it to take it?

 

[Slade3200]

More tap-dancing from you. You haven't the intellectual capacity to hold an adult conversation. Enjoy your bliss, kid.

Says the guy running away from the conversation!! haha, good one. See ya!

 

[Slade3200]

Cause they may not be 100% safe

Vaccines are safe

Then why won’t the FDA fully approve them and with young kids, which I have I am a little concerned? COVID19 rarely impacts children so why are we pushing vaccines on them when we don’t quite know everything yet...

www.usmessageboard.com

Driving to work isn't 100% safe yet you are still required to do it, right?

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Driving to work isn't 100% safe yet you are still required to do it, right?

Driving to work in a car where brakes may not work is not safe. False conflation. My kids don’t need the vaccine to go to school. And even the FDA is not sure they are safe. I cannot teleport to work.

 

[hadit]

Ok, so isn’t this hospital simply updating their criteria for running matches to include vaccinated individuals?

The hospital can't do that. Here's how the match works. A donor is identified. That means someone is in that perfect state where they are brain dead but their organs have not yet shut down. The patient's doctor (whose job is to keep the patient alive and who has obtained proof that the patient is a donor and no family member is opposing) signals the transplant team (whose job is to harvest the organs) that the patient is ready for donation. The team rushes in, splits the body open and pours in ice. This is to rapidly cool the organs to slow decay. At the same time, they draw blood, a lot of blood, and run a lot of tests on the chemistry. When they have the results, someone goes to the UNOS website, enters the patient's information, and clicks "run match". Within a few seconds (up to a minute for kidneys), the entire database of waiting patients is sorted and matched to the organ. It's all automated. I know, I've run it myself to test performance enhancements. Then notifications start going out, with the best match going first. The recipient's doctor looks at the images and the blood work, and decides to accept or reject the organ(s). There are up to 7 for every donor, and they added faces to list right before I left. If the doctor accepts, the organ is boxed, labels are printed and stuck to the box, FedEx shows up and takes the organ to the recipient's hospital, where, if all has gone well, the patient is already in surgery with his body open.

1. A hospital can't change the match. Any changes have to be proposed to the board, which then deliberates and instructs UNOS on what changes to make. A hospital or doctor CAN refuse to accept donor organs from certain type of people, based on the wishes of the patient, And yes, a racist could refuse an organ from someone of a different skin color. Dumb, but they can.
2. An individual hospital doesn't even change the criteria used by the OPO to accept patients on the list. An OPO is larger than just one hospital.
3. The only thing a hospital really can do is refuse to put any unvaccinated patients that come to them on the list, and I'm not even really sure about that. They couldn't, however, prevent another hospital from doing so.

The transplant matching process is heavily regulated and monitored, and individual hospitals are somewhat limited in what they can and can't do. If they have a transplant program, they agree to work within the bounds of the system. There are ways to game the system, for example, registering in more than one OPO. You'd better be ready to travel long distances, though.