How come Jesus fulfilled all verses on Lucifer, none on ACTUAL Messiah prerequisites

[The Irish Ram]

Simple answer : How many times do you need to be told the God of Abraham is not Anthropomorphic?

Isaiah 42:8 we can't pray to any image of anything physical- Exodus 20:3-7 and Deuteronomy 5:8-10
God is not a man nor form-(Isaiah 2:22, 14:13, I Samuel 15:29, Numbers 23:19, and Hosea 11:9, Deuteronomy 4:11-12 and the 13 major principles of the Jewish faith based on the Rambam's teaching of "ain lo demus haguf ve'ayno guf" -- that Hashem has no physical form.)

God walked in the garden with Adam and Eve, so we know He had feet. He spoke to them, so we know He had vocal chords. He sat around Abraham's campfire, therefore the ability to sit. He ate stew, therefore throat. He heard laughter, therefore ears. He put Moses in a cleft in a rock and covered Moses' face with His hand, so we know he had hands. Moses saw God's butt, so we know He had one.
Looks like Adam and Eve, Abraham and Sarah, and Moses were well acquainted with God in physical form.
We are made in His image. We are spirit, temporarily wrapped in clay. God can appear in our form at will and has on many occasion. He hung on a cross for us, which is as physical as it gets.

 

[hobelim]

I read Scripture as it is written. Note that you have diverted from discussing the Scriptures into telling me that my mind is corrupted. That is not a healthy road to traverse.

Now, your biggest problem is not with me, it is with the Gospel of John that you maintain is lying, because it clearly states that God became man. You also have a problem with Genesis. Remember this from chapter 18?

God took on human form, ate and conversed with Abraham.

Try to understand that I am not criticizing or condemning you when I said that such a belief is absurd and evidence of defective thinking resulting from defective teaching that violates both the most basic principle of monotheism and established truth about the incorporeal nature of God.

Its just the way it is....



And no, When God appeared to Abraham and he ate lunch with three men it was during a dream, as it says it was during the heat of the day when people took a siesta like many people still do in such a climate during the heat of the day.

When the Lord appeared to Abraham, there stood three men showing a distinction between the Lord and the three men identified as angels.

And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men stood in front of him.

In addition to that when the three men, identified as angels, went to sodom it says that the Lord remained and Abraham still stood before the Lord confirming that the three men were not God..

So the men turned from there, and went toward Sodom; but Abraham still stood before the LORD.


You have either been misled or have made great errors in your own speculations.

Is that so hard to believe?

 

[hadit]

I read Scripture as it is written. Note that you have diverted from discussing the Scriptures into telling me that my mind is corrupted. That is not a healthy road to traverse.

Now, your biggest problem is not with me, it is with the Gospel of John that you maintain is lying, because it clearly states that God became man. You also have a problem with Genesis. Remember this from chapter 18?

God took on human form, ate and conversed with Abraham.

Try to understand that I am not criticizing or condemning you when I said that such a belief is absurd and evidence of defective thinking resulting from defective teaching that violates both the most basic principle of monotheism and established truth about the incorporeal nature of God.

Its just the way it is....



And no, When God appeared to Abraham and he ate lunch with three men it was during a dream, as it says it was during the heat of the day when people took a siesta like many people still do in such a climate during the heat of the day.

When the Lord appeared to Abraham, there stood three men showing a distinction between the Lord and the three men identified as angels.

And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men stood in front of him.

In addition to that when the three men, identified as angels, went to sodom it says that the Lord remained and Abraham still stood before the Lord confirming that the three men were not God..

So the men turned from there, and went toward Sodom; but Abraham still stood before the LORD.


You have either been misled or have made great errors in your own speculations.

Is that so hard to believe?

Here are some fallacies in what you say.

1. There is no indication in the Scriptures that it was a dream. You have to insert that yourself to make it true. In fact, it says that Abraham was sitting at the entrance to his tent, NOT inside lying down as you would if you were taking a nap.
2. See this from Genesis 19. THREE men met with Abraham, TWO arrived in Sodom:

The TWO angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city.

Like I said, a simple reading of Scripture makes it clear that God can and did take on human form at times to interact with man. You have to insert things that are not there and avoid things that are to avoid that truth.

 

[hobelim]

Here are some fallacies in what you say.

1. There is no indication in the Scriptures that it was a dream. You have to insert that yourself to make it true. In fact, it says that Abraham was sitting at the entrance to his tent, NOT inside lying down as you would if you were taking a nap.
2. See this from Genesis 19. THREE men met with Abraham, TWO arrived in Sodom:

1. Of course one has to use their own minds to understand what was written. it is never mentioned that ezekiel flying through the air from Babylon to Jerusalem by an angel holding him by the hair where he dug through 13 feet of solid rock of the Temple with his bare hands without anyone else noticing, but such things like this, including hearing from and speaking with God, can only occur in dreams and visions where any contact with God is incorporeal and the substance or form of anything seen or heard is not of a material nature..


2. Yes, two men arrived in Sodom, the third man arrived to destroy it after bartering with Abraham, but it was the invisible Lord of heaven who destroyed it, not a man.

Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens.

As I said before there is a clear distinction between the Lord appearing to Abraham and the means through which God communicates to man, the three men, mythical creatures, angels, talking donkeys, writing on the wall, etc., which only occur in dreams.

Like I said, a simple reading of Scripture makes it clear that God can and did take on human form at times to interact with man. You have to insert things that are not there and avoid things that are to avoid that truth.

A simple reading of scripture says, " if there is a prophet among you I will make myself known to him in dreams and visions.", It does not say that I will take on human form and eat lunch.

Thats the truth.

 

[hadit]

Here are some fallacies in what you say.

1. There is no indication in the Scriptures that it was a dream. You have to insert that yourself to make it true. In fact, it says that Abraham was sitting at the entrance to his tent, NOT inside lying down as you would if you were taking a nap.
2. See this from Genesis 19. THREE men met with Abraham, TWO arrived in Sodom:

1. Of course one has to use their own minds to understand what was written. it is never mentioned that ezekiel flying through the air from Babylon to Jerusalem by an angel holding him by the hair where he dug through 13 feet of solid rock of the Temple with his bare hands without anyone else noticing, but such things like this, including hearing from and speaking with God, can only occur in dreams and visions where any contact with God is incorporeal and the substance or form of anything seen or heard is not of a material nature..


2. Yes, two men arrived in Sodom, the third man arrived to destroy it after bartering with Abraham, but it was the invisible Lord of heaven who destroyed it, not a man.

There is no record of the third man (God in human form) physically going to Sodom.

Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens.

As I said before there is a clear distinction between the Lord appearing to Abraham and the means through which God communicates to man, the three men, mythical creatures, angels, talking donkeys, writing on the wall, etc., which only occur in dreams.

You have no Scriptural basis on which to make that claim. In each case, Scripture makes no mention of the person receiving the message dreaming. You have to insert that yourself.

Like I said, a simple reading of Scripture makes it clear that God can and did take on human form at times to interact with man. You have to insert things that are not there and avoid things that are to avoid that truth.

A simple reading of scripture says, " if there is a prophet among you I will make myself known to him in dreams and visions.", It does not say that I will take on human form and eat lunch.

Thats the truth.

Let's take a look at that passage, shall we? Here it is, from Numbers 12:

4 At once the Lord said to Moses, Aaron and Miriam, “Come out to the tent of meeting, all three of you.” So the three of them went out. 5 Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud; he stood at the entrance to the tent and summoned Aaron and Miriam. When the two of them stepped forward, 6 he said, “Listen to my words:

“When there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, reveal myself to them in visions,
I speak to them in dreams.
7 But this is not true of my servant Moses;
he is faithful in all my house.
8 With him I speak face to face,
clearly and not in riddles;
he sees the form of the Lord.
Why then were you not afraid
to speak against my servant Moses?”

God stood at the entrance to the tent, just as a human form would do. Again, just as with Abraham, God spoke face to face with Moses. Please, please, be more careful when you attempt to use Scripture to bolster your viewpoint, that you use it accurately.

Are you trying to say that all three of them fell asleep at the same time and had the same dream?

 

[HaShev]

Simple answer : How many times do you need to be told the God of Abraham is not Anthropomorphic?

Isaiah 42:8 we can't pray to any image of anything physical- Exodus 20:3-7 and Deuteronomy 5:8-10
God is not a man nor form-(Isaiah 2:22, 14:13, I Samuel 15:29, Numbers 23:19, and Hosea 11:9, Deuteronomy 4:11-12 and the 13 major principles of the Jewish faith based on the Rambam's teaching of "ain lo demus haguf ve'ayno guf" -- that Hashem has no physical form.)

God walked in the garden with Adam and Eve, so we know He had feet. He spoke to them, so we know He had vocal chords. He sat around Abraham's campfire, therefore the ability to sit. He ate stew, therefore throat. He heard laughter, therefore ears. He put Moses in a cleft in a rock and covered Moses' face with His hand, so we know he had hands. Moses saw God's butt, so we know He had one.
Looks like Adam and Eve, Abraham and Sarah, and Moses were well acquainted with God in physical form.
We are made in His image. We are spirit, temporarily wrapped in clay. God can appear in our form at will and has on many occasion. He hung on a cross for us, which is as physical as it gets.

1) you left no verses left so we can discuss them. Need to know where you are making up this stuff from, are you using Tanakh or NT version of the OT? Be specific with verses please.
2)Hebrew word for Image in Genesis is not physical image it's an Essence type image.
3) your christ had 2 accts one stoned then hung on a tree and the other traditional later added cross scene taken from Baal who in predated tablets had the exact story event for event regarding his death and resurrection. This is why you have the Baal cross, baal Dec 25 th birthday and Baal's son the morning star reference Rev 22:16.

Source:

the earlier christ who was stoned & hanged, was the 100bc christ Yeshu son of Mary sentenced at passover which is what both Mark and John acct. The NT admits:
Acts 5:30 "Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree" Acts 10:39 "whom they slew and hanged on a tree" Acts 13:29 "they took him down from the tree" 1 Peter 2:24 "who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree" Galatians 3:13 "Christ... being made a curse upon us... Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree" also read Deuteronomy 21:22.

Under Rabbinic Law, criminals are to be stoned (John 8:3-11.) The 'Jesus' mythos was stoned (slew) and then hung on a tree -- which is what the Christanic mythologies say.
The cross is a later addition(300ad) which has been soundly debunked.
The crucified by Rome Galilean at the time of Herod & Lysanias was Yehuda the tax revolter, he died in 6bc a far cry from the ad era crucified christ by the Jordan river who's apostles were martyrs. That ad era cross bearer was Theudas who died in 45 ad. That's at least 3 christs (trinity) converged into the Jesus image that your cross claims expose. This is why the figure and his followers are given new names and new birthdate that still doesn't fit the story characters eras.

 

[The Irish Ram]

God stood at the entrance to the tent, just as a human form would do. Again, just as with Abraham, God spoke face to face with Moses. Please, please, be more careful when you attempt to use Scripture to bolster your viewpoint, that you use it accurately.

Exodus 33:21-23
Then the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock; and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."…

 

[hobelim]

God stood at the entrance to the tent, just as a human form would do. Again, just as with Abraham, God spoke face to face with Moses. Please, please, be more careful when you attempt to use Scripture to bolster your viewpoint, that you use it accurately.

Exodus 33:21-23
Then the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock; and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."…

God speaking with Moses "face to face" is a figure of speech that is not a contradiction of " My face shall not be seen" , which is also a figure of speech that denotes something else. Both expressions have nothing whatever to do with a face.

Lesser prophets needed the symbolism and the emotions inspired by bizarre dreams which then were explained by angels till the message was understood before they could convey a message from God to others. Moses speaking with God face to face just indicates a more direct communication with God where intermediaries and the landscapes of dreams were not necessary. My face shall not be seen just indicates that hearing from God directly, speaking face to face, does not equal understanding, seeing his face.

This also sheds light on what Jesus meant by saying he who has seen me has seen the father, meaning if you could understand Jesus you would understand God, see the face of God, so to speak.

"Blessed are the pure of mind, for they shall see God."

When Moses said during his long list of maledictions promised for failure to comply with the way that he taught to follow the law that God would hide his face it just meant that people would understand nothing about God and hear nothing from him.... until of course the prophet predicted in Deuteronomy 18:18 appeared, the messiah that Jesus claimed to be who lead people to the sanctuary of God, the promised land that Moses was not allowed to enter, where his face can be seen...

 

[HaShev]

Agree reference to face like in gentiles never seeing the face of God until the procession to come [Isaiah 66:19] is an expression meaning never understood and known this God of Israel and thus being shown. People did not take placing their test paper face down literal in school.
Calling a car she does not make a car female, they are expressions. And I have to admit should have been more careful expressing these things.

Regarding the Lord. Lord refers to King, both God and the head Royal servant are deemed Lord and are easily confused.
It's a well known teaching even by pastors that the messenger of the Lord is
speaking since the Hebrew God is not a figure or form type expression of creation's power and source.

 

[hobelim]

Agree reference to face like in gentiles never seeing the face of God until the procession to come [Isaiah 66:19] is an expression meaning never understood and known this God of Israel and thus being shown. People did not take placing their test paper face down literal in school.
Calling a car she does not make a car female, they are expressions. And I have to admit should have been more careful expressing these things.

Regarding the Lord. Lord refers to King, both God and the head Royal servant are deemed Lord and are easily confused.
It's a well known teaching even by pastors that the messenger of the Lord is
speaking since the Hebrew God is not a figure or form type expression of creation's power and source.

According to scripture the prophet that you are claiming to be is supposed to be a prophet like Moses who spoke with God face to face.

True?

Has the living God ever appeared to you in your entire life, spoken with you face to face, and commanded you to speak anything in his name?


A simple yes or no will do.........


Continuing to avoid answering this essential question will place a damper on your royal aspirations.

Maybe even shimon will even begin to wonder if he has staked his tent in the wrong camp........

 

[hadit]

God stood at the entrance to the tent, just as a human form would do. Again, just as with Abraham, God spoke face to face with Moses. Please, please, be more careful when you attempt to use Scripture to bolster your viewpoint, that you use it accurately.

Exodus 33:21-23
Then the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock; and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."…

God speaking with Moses "face to face" is a figure of speech that is not a contradiction of " My face shall not be seen" , which is also a figure of speech that denotes something else. Both expressions have nothing whatever to do with a face.

Lesser prophets needed the symbolism and the emotions inspired by bizarre dreams which then were explained by angels till the message was understood before they could convey a message from God to others. Moses speaking with God face to face just indicates a more direct communication with God where intermediaries and the landscapes of dreams were not necessary. My face shall not be seen just indicates that hearing from God directly, speaking face to face, does not equal understanding, seeing his face.

This also sheds light on what Jesus meant by saying he who has seen me has seen the father, meaning if you could understand Jesus you would understand God, see the face of God, so to speak.

"Blessed are the pure of mind, for they shall see God."

When Moses said during his long list of maledictions promised for failure to comply with the way that he taught to follow the law that God would hide his face it just meant that people would understand nothing about God and hear nothing from him.... until of course the prophet predicted in Deuteronomy 18:18 appeared, the messiah that Jesus claimed to be who lead people to the sanctuary of God, the promised land that Moses was not allowed to enter, where his face can be seen...

IOW, God did NOT speak to Moses only through dreams. That is the point, because you said that's the only way God spoke to man.

 

[hadit]

God stood at the entrance to the tent, just as a human form would do. Again, just as with Abraham, God spoke face to face with Moses. Please, please, be more careful when you attempt to use Scripture to bolster your viewpoint, that you use it accurately.

Exodus 33:21-23
Then the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock; and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."…

God took on human form that could be seen by man, think of Jesus. His natural form, however, is something that cannot be seen by sinful man.

 

[hobelim]

God stood at the entrance to the tent, just as a human form would do. Again, just as with Abraham, God spoke face to face with Moses. Please, please, be more careful when you attempt to use Scripture to bolster your viewpoint, that you use it accurately.

Exodus 33:21-23
Then the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock; and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."…

God speaking with Moses "face to face" is a figure of speech that is not a contradiction of " My face shall not be seen" , which is also a figure of speech that denotes something else. Both expressions have nothing whatever to do with a face.

Lesser prophets needed the symbolism and the emotions inspired by bizarre dreams which then were explained by angels till the message was understood before they could convey a message from God to others. Moses speaking with God face to face just indicates a more direct communication with God where intermediaries and the landscapes of dreams were not necessary. My face shall not be seen just indicates that hearing from God directly, speaking face to face, does not equal understanding, seeing his face.

This also sheds light on what Jesus meant by saying he who has seen me has seen the father, meaning if you could understand Jesus you would understand God, see the face of God, so to speak.

"Blessed are the pure of mind, for they shall see God."

When Moses said during his long list of maledictions promised for failure to comply with the way that he taught to follow the law that God would hide his face it just meant that people would understand nothing about God and hear nothing from him.... until of course the prophet predicted in Deuteronomy 18:18 appeared, the messiah that Jesus claimed to be who lead people to the sanctuary of God, the promised land that Moses was not allowed to enter, where his face can be seen...

IOW, God did NOT speak to Moses only through dreams. That is the point, because you said that's the only way God spoke to man.

Ok, point taken.

But if Moses was not like any other prophet then when Abraham spoke with God it had to have been in a dream.

 

[hadit]

Agree reference to face like in gentiles never seeing the face of God until the procession to come [Isaiah 66:19] is an expression meaning never understood and known this God of Israel and thus being shown. People did not take placing their test paper face down literal in school.
Calling a car she does not make a car female, they are expressions. And I have to admit should have been more careful expressing these things.

Regarding the Lord. Lord refers to King, both God and the head Royal servant are deemed Lord and are easily confused.
It's a well known teaching even by pastors that the messenger of the Lord is
speaking since the Hebrew God is not a figure or form type expression of creation's power and source.

According to scripture the prophet that you are claiming to be is supposed to be a prophet like Moses who spoke with God face to face.

True?

Has the living God ever appeared to you in your entire life, spoken with you face to face, and commanded you to speak anything in his name?


A simple yes or no will do.........


Continuing to avoid answering this essential question will place a damper on your royal aspirations.

Maybe even shimon will even begin to wonder if he has staked his tent in the wrong camp........

It is one thing to discuss Scripture as natural men, another thing completely to claim divinity.

 

[hadit]

God stood at the entrance to the tent, just as a human form would do. Again, just as with Abraham, God spoke face to face with Moses. Please, please, be more careful when you attempt to use Scripture to bolster your viewpoint, that you use it accurately.

Exodus 33:21-23
Then the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock; and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."…

God speaking with Moses "face to face" is a figure of speech that is not a contradiction of " My face shall not be seen" , which is also a figure of speech that denotes something else. Both expressions have nothing whatever to do with a face.

Lesser prophets needed the symbolism and the emotions inspired by bizarre dreams which then were explained by angels till the message was understood before they could convey a message from God to others. Moses speaking with God face to face just indicates a more direct communication with God where intermediaries and the landscapes of dreams were not necessary. My face shall not be seen just indicates that hearing from God directly, speaking face to face, does not equal understanding, seeing his face.

This also sheds light on what Jesus meant by saying he who has seen me has seen the father, meaning if you could understand Jesus you would understand God, see the face of God, so to speak.

"Blessed are the pure of mind, for they shall see God."

When Moses said during his long list of maledictions promised for failure to comply with the way that he taught to follow the law that God would hide his face it just meant that people would understand nothing about God and hear nothing from him.... until of course the prophet predicted in Deuteronomy 18:18 appeared, the messiah that Jesus claimed to be who lead people to the sanctuary of God, the promised land that Moses was not allowed to enter, where his face can be seen...

IOW, God did NOT speak to Moses only through dreams. That is the point, because you said that's the only way God spoke to man.

Ok, point taken.

But if Moses was not like any other prophet then when Abraham spoke with God it had to have been in a dream.

I don't think so. Abraham and God had a VERY special relationship, and Scripture doesn't indicate that he was dreaming during that encounter. In fact, it states that he was sitting at the entrance of his tent, NOT lying down taking a nap. Now, I am NOT saying that God does not speak through dreams and visions, I am saying that He can and did take on human form.

 

[hobelim]

God stood at the entrance to the tent, just as a human form would do. Again, just as with Abraham, God spoke face to face with Moses. Please, please, be more careful when you attempt to use Scripture to bolster your viewpoint, that you use it accurately.

Exodus 33:21-23
Then the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock; and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."…

God speaking with Moses "face to face" is a figure of speech that is not a contradiction of " My face shall not be seen" , which is also a figure of speech that denotes something else. Both expressions have nothing whatever to do with a face.

Lesser prophets needed the symbolism and the emotions inspired by bizarre dreams which then were explained by angels till the message was understood before they could convey a message from God to others. Moses speaking with God face to face just indicates a more direct communication with God where intermediaries and the landscapes of dreams were not necessary. My face shall not be seen just indicates that hearing from God directly, speaking face to face, does not equal understanding, seeing his face.

This also sheds light on what Jesus meant by saying he who has seen me has seen the father, meaning if you could understand Jesus you would understand God, see the face of God, so to speak.

"Blessed are the pure of mind, for they shall see God."

When Moses said during his long list of maledictions promised for failure to comply with the way that he taught to follow the law that God would hide his face it just meant that people would understand nothing about God and hear nothing from him.... until of course the prophet predicted in Deuteronomy 18:18 appeared, the messiah that Jesus claimed to be who lead people to the sanctuary of God, the promised land that Moses was not allowed to enter, where his face can be seen...

IOW, God did NOT speak to Moses only through dreams. That is the point, because you said that's the only way God spoke to man.

Ok, point taken.

But if Moses was not like any other prophet then when Abraham spoke with God it had to have been in a dream.

I don't think so. Abraham and God had a VERY special relationship, and Scripture doesn't indicate that he was dreaming during that encounter. In fact, it states that he was sitting at the entrance of his tent, NOT lying down taking a nap. Now, I am NOT saying that God does not speak through dreams and visions, I am saying that He can and did take on human form.

Scripture doesn't have to indicate that a prophet was dreaming when he reported what he saw and heard from God when it is already a deeply ingrained widely held and long established belief that God communicates to prophets through dreams and visions, altered states of consciousness.

Only Moses, and the prophet who was and is to follow, have a more special, intimate and open connection with God as is clearly stated;



"I speak to him face to face, clearly, and not in riddles! ."


The only possible conclusion is that even if Abraham 'saw' God and spoke with him what he saw was not God taking on a human form anymore than Moses was God taking on human form.

What he saw and heard was an eyewitness account of what was seen and heard in a dream where nothing, even people, are of a material substance.

 

[hadit]

Exodus 33:21-23
Then the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock; and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."…

God speaking with Moses "face to face" is a figure of speech that is not a contradiction of " My face shall not be seen" , which is also a figure of speech that denotes something else. Both expressions have nothing whatever to do with a face.

Lesser prophets needed the symbolism and the emotions inspired by bizarre dreams which then were explained by angels till the message was understood before they could convey a message from God to others. Moses speaking with God face to face just indicates a more direct communication with God where intermediaries and the landscapes of dreams were not necessary. My face shall not be seen just indicates that hearing from God directly, speaking face to face, does not equal understanding, seeing his face.

This also sheds light on what Jesus meant by saying he who has seen me has seen the father, meaning if you could understand Jesus you would understand God, see the face of God, so to speak.

"Blessed are the pure of mind, for they shall see God."

When Moses said during his long list of maledictions promised for failure to comply with the way that he taught to follow the law that God would hide his face it just meant that people would understand nothing about God and hear nothing from him.... until of course the prophet predicted in Deuteronomy 18:18 appeared, the messiah that Jesus claimed to be who lead people to the sanctuary of God, the promised land that Moses was not allowed to enter, where his face can be seen...

IOW, God did NOT speak to Moses only through dreams. That is the point, because you said that's the only way God spoke to man.

Ok, point taken.

But if Moses was not like any other prophet then when Abraham spoke with God it had to have been in a dream.

I don't think so. Abraham and God had a VERY special relationship, and Scripture doesn't indicate that he was dreaming during that encounter. In fact, it states that he was sitting at the entrance of his tent, NOT lying down taking a nap. Now, I am NOT saying that God does not speak through dreams and visions, I am saying that He can and did take on human form.

Scripture doesn't have to indicate that a prophet was dreaming when he reported what he saw and heard from God when it is already a deeply ingrained widely held and long established belief that God communicates to prophets through dreams and visions, altered states of consciousness.

Only Moses, and the prophet who was and is to follow, have a more special, intimate and open connection with God as is clearly stated;

"I speak to him face to face, clearly, and not in riddles! He sees the LORD as he is."

I'm sorry, but if Scripture says nothing about a person dreaming, I have to believe that they weren't. There are some encounters that COULD have been dreams, Samuel's hearing God at night, for instance. Balaam's encounter with his donkey, however, I do not accept as a dream, because he was actively on his way WITH other people. Granted, that is not an encounter with God in human form.

 

[hobelim]

God speaking with Moses "face to face" is a figure of speech that is not a contradiction of " My face shall not be seen" , which is also a figure of speech that denotes something else. Both expressions have nothing whatever to do with a face.

Lesser prophets needed the symbolism and the emotions inspired by bizarre dreams which then were explained by angels till the message was understood before they could convey a message from God to others. Moses speaking with God face to face just indicates a more direct communication with God where intermediaries and the landscapes of dreams were not necessary. My face shall not be seen just indicates that hearing from God directly, speaking face to face, does not equal understanding, seeing his face.

This also sheds light on what Jesus meant by saying he who has seen me has seen the father, meaning if you could understand Jesus you would understand God, see the face of God, so to speak.

"Blessed are the pure of mind, for they shall see God."

When Moses said during his long list of maledictions promised for failure to comply with the way that he taught to follow the law that God would hide his face it just meant that people would understand nothing about God and hear nothing from him.... until of course the prophet predicted in Deuteronomy 18:18 appeared, the messiah that Jesus claimed to be who lead people to the sanctuary of God, the promised land that Moses was not allowed to enter, where his face can be seen...

IOW, God did NOT speak to Moses only through dreams. That is the point, because you said that's the only way God spoke to man.

Ok, point taken.

But if Moses was not like any other prophet then when Abraham spoke with God it had to have been in a dream.

I don't think so. Abraham and God had a VERY special relationship, and Scripture doesn't indicate that he was dreaming during that encounter. In fact, it states that he was sitting at the entrance of his tent, NOT lying down taking a nap. Now, I am NOT saying that God does not speak through dreams and visions, I am saying that He can and did take on human form.

Scripture doesn't have to indicate that a prophet was dreaming when he reported what he saw and heard from God when it is already a deeply ingrained widely held and long established belief that God communicates to prophets through dreams and visions, altered states of consciousness.

Only Moses, and the prophet who was and is to follow, have a more special, intimate and open connection with God as is clearly stated;

"I speak to him face to face, clearly, and not in riddles! He sees the LORD as he is."

I'm sorry, but if Scripture says nothing about a person dreaming, I have to believe that they weren't. There are some encounters that COULD have been dreams, Samuel's hearing God at night, for instance. Balaam's encounter with his donkey, however, I do not accept as a dream, because he was actively on his way WITH other people. Granted, that is not an encounter with God in human form.

One thing essential to remember that provides a major constraint on any possible interpretation of scripture is that all of these things are supposed to have happened on earth.

If there is no such thing as angels flying through the air holding people by the hair, then there never was such a thing, ever. The only possible way for such a story to be true is if it was the eyewitness account of what was seen and heard in a dream.

If donkeys can't talk then either the authors were being derogatory, calling someone a jackass, or it was an eyewitness account of what was seen and heard in a dream, the only place where such things are possible..

 

[hadit]

IOW, God did NOT speak to Moses only through dreams. That is the point, because you said that's the only way God spoke to man.

Ok, point taken.

But if Moses was not like any other prophet then when Abraham spoke with God it had to have been in a dream.

I don't think so. Abraham and God had a VERY special relationship, and Scripture doesn't indicate that he was dreaming during that encounter. In fact, it states that he was sitting at the entrance of his tent, NOT lying down taking a nap. Now, I am NOT saying that God does not speak through dreams and visions, I am saying that He can and did take on human form.

Scripture doesn't have to indicate that a prophet was dreaming when he reported what he saw and heard from God when it is already a deeply ingrained widely held and long established belief that God communicates to prophets through dreams and visions, altered states of consciousness.

Only Moses, and the prophet who was and is to follow, have a more special, intimate and open connection with God as is clearly stated;

"I speak to him face to face, clearly, and not in riddles! He sees the LORD as he is."

I'm sorry, but if Scripture says nothing about a person dreaming, I have to believe that they weren't. There are some encounters that COULD have been dreams, Samuel's hearing God at night, for instance. Balaam's encounter with his donkey, however, I do not accept as a dream, because he was actively on his way WITH other people. Granted, that is not an encounter with God in human form.

One thing essential to remember that provides a major constraint on any possible interpretation of scripture is that all of these things are supposed to have happened on earth.

If there is no such thing as angels flying through the air holding people by the hair, then there never was such a thing, ever. The only possible way for such a story to be true is if it was the eyewitness account of what was seen and heard in a dream.

If donkeys can't talk then either the authors were being derogatory, calling someone a jackass, or it was an eyewitness account of what was seen and heard in a dream, the only realm where such things are possible..

You do realize, don't you, that by saying that you are denying God's ability to operate miraculously in this realm?

 

[hobelim]

Ok, point taken.

But if Moses was not like any other prophet then when Abraham spoke with God it had to have been in a dream.

I don't think so. Abraham and God had a VERY special relationship, and Scripture doesn't indicate that he was dreaming during that encounter. In fact, it states that he was sitting at the entrance of his tent, NOT lying down taking a nap. Now, I am NOT saying that God does not speak through dreams and visions, I am saying that He can and did take on human form.

Scripture doesn't have to indicate that a prophet was dreaming when he reported what he saw and heard from God when it is already a deeply ingrained widely held and long established belief that God communicates to prophets through dreams and visions, altered states of consciousness.

Only Moses, and the prophet who was and is to follow, have a more special, intimate and open connection with God as is clearly stated;

"I speak to him face to face, clearly, and not in riddles! He sees the LORD as he is."

I'm sorry, but if Scripture says nothing about a person dreaming, I have to believe that they weren't. There are some encounters that COULD have been dreams, Samuel's hearing God at night, for instance. Balaam's encounter with his donkey, however, I do not accept as a dream, because he was actively on his way WITH other people. Granted, that is not an encounter with God in human form.

One thing essential to remember that provides a major constraint on any possible interpretation of scripture is that all of these things are supposed to have happened on earth.

If there is no such thing as angels flying through the air holding people by the hair, then there never was such a thing, ever. The only possible way for such a story to be true is if it was the eyewitness account of what was seen and heard in a dream.

If donkeys can't talk then either the authors were being derogatory, calling someone a jackass, or it was an eyewitness account of what was seen and heard in a dream, the only realm where such things are possible..

You do realize, don't you, that by saying that you are denying God's ability to operate miraculously in this realm?

No, that is a false conclusion. By saying that I am being sober and rational.

God communicating teaching to a creature as lowly as man through dreams and visions does not in any way make anything less miraculous.