How do people survive on minimum wage?

[Foxfyre]

Those points speak to a complete ignorance in economics in general. You cannot fix a problem by simply demanding that people make more. That brings EVERYONE down and elevates nothing.

The response that a raise in minimum wage would lead to the exact same purchasing power shows an ignorance in economics. Such an analysis assumes that 100% of the cost of running a business is related to wages, but that is not true.

Say wages are 50% of running a business. The minimum wage is raised from $8 to $10 per gour. About 60% of those workers make minium wage, but their earnings constitute only 40% of the companies total wages. This represents a 25% increase in wages for the unskilled employees. However the cost of doing business increases only as follows:

(60% + (40% x 1.25)50% + 50% = 1.05 or a increase of 5% of production costs. Assuming that these costs are passed directly to the consumer, then the cost of goods increases 5%, but the earning power of the unskilled worker increases 20%. The net purchasing power increases 20% for those unskilled workers. The purchasing power of other workers goes down 5%.

Admittedly a simplistic model, but I hope you get the idea.

You see it as the opposite. However what you see does not apply to business in real world terms.
The way to get out of min wage is to improve one's skill set, educate one's self and perform tasks in an exemplary fashion.
Wages are not a gift. Employment is not en entitlement.

Yes. Those who are stuck in minimum wage jobs either a) aren't trying or b) aren't contributing to the business in a way that is worth more than minimum wage.

I once was hired as the payroll officer for a large hospital, a job I could do in my sleep. Once it became obvious that I was able to do more in Human Resources than just do payroll, they expanded my duties and I was paid more. I still was still fast enough on the computer and able to streamline the procedures and processes to the point that it was only taking me half a day to do my job. And while I can loaf with the best of them, I was wanting more money.

So, when the Communications Officer position came open, and I had skills to do that, I applied to take that on too. And in so doing, increased my wages considerably. When I left some years later, the hospital again had to use three different people to do what I was doing and no doubt none of those three made anything close to what I was being paid. But they were paid what their jobs were worth and were probably all together be paid quite a bit more than I was being paid. I ihad been able to substantially increase my wages by being productive in a way that saved the hospital money.

The way to make substantially more than minimum wage is to be able to do work that is worth substantially more than minimum wage. To make more money, you need to generate more profits for your employer or otherwise find ways to save him/her money by what you do.

 

[The T]

Hey you guys want to employ more with a better wage????????????????Get rid of unions and have honest to god competition....Freedom is the answer! As we have seen the last 3 years socialism and fascism doesn't work.

Use the EU as an example of what not to do. Obama and the Progressives are Hell-Bent taking us there anyway.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Aw, I'm telling the girl, based on experience (growing up in a rich town) and demonstrable statistical evidence, she has money. poor her! Your'e ridiculous. It's so awful being rich! Don't give me this lame conservative empathy for the rich. It's pathetic.

That's borderline retarded.. what the fuck is wrong with you? Seriously?

Are you fucking serious? I have no problem with jewish people, and citing their relative success can hardly be construed as anti-semetic. It was merely with reference to her ability to relate to poor people, which she claimed she could, and I find laughable. I can't be real on this board without conservatives act as the political correctness police? Talk about hypocrisy.

"All Jews are rich, all Asians are smart and academically-inclined, and all blacks can play basketball and dance. And it's not racist to judge people by group, so long as it's a POSITIVE idiotic stereotype."

Just keep showing us what you are, and how beneath our contempt you are.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Aw, I'm telling the girl, based on experience (growing up in a rich town) and demonstrable statistical evidence, she has money. poor her! Your'e ridiculous. It's so awful being rich! Don't give me this lame conservative empathy for the rich. It's pathetic.

Well.. I could then assume with the same amount of background information on you, that you are suffering from mental retardation, probably stemming from drug use... this is based on experience being around it in Baltimore city in my youth, watching friends and neighbors lose their mental faculties and ability to reason after heavy drug use... see how easy it is to paint a picture from your own imagination with no actual information??

And who said anything or even gave a hint of anything about 'empathy for the rich'.... I am the BIGGEST proponent of equal treatment for all, with all the positives and negatives that go with it...

You are posting like an ignorant, snot nosed brat that gets talking point information and slogans from activists and winger blogs... sitting around a tree at the local college with bunches of people sporting dreadlocks and Che Guevara t-shirts, drinking Sobe before going back to your beater car that smells of bong water and is decorated with Obama stickers.... See, another easy assumption without information

I can't logically defend my choice of words, because I don't know the girl. I did it out of anger in response to when conservatives say they empathize with the poor as a reason for their wanting to remove all subsidies. It's ridiculous that the most privileged in society have so much commentary on things they know nothing about. I used her name as enough information to paint of picture of her. Yes, it was stereotyping. Yes, it was "wrong" to generalize.

Koshergl, I apologize.

It's ridiculous that fools like you assume that someone who's financially successful in life either always has been, or is incapable of knowing and understanding what life is like for others. Please don't assume that your own self-centeredness and lack of imagination applies to everyone, or that all poor people are unambitious losers who are incapable of bettering themselves and becoming successful just because that's how it is for you.

 

[Foxfyre]

That's borderline retarded.. what the fuck is wrong with you? Seriously?

Are you fucking serious? I have no problem with jewish people, and citing their relative success can hardly be construed as anti-semetic. It was merely with reference to her ability to relate to poor people, which she claimed she could, and I find laughable. I can't be real on this board without conservatives act as the political correctness police? Talk about hypocrisy.

"All Jews are rich, all Asians are smart and academically-inclined, and all blacks can play basketball and dance. And it's not racist to judge people by group, so long as it's a POSITIVE idiotic stereotype."

Just keep showing us what you are, and how beneath our contempt you are.

Well he has a point. You can hardly expect those who have never had a job or never supported themselves or who never paid their own bills to relate accurately or fairly to people who do that can you? Stereotypes can work in all sorts of interesting ways.

 

[Cecilie1200]

.

Like we've said before, the thought that hard work, sacrifice and discipline can improve your life is simply not allowed. No way, can't be. Can't do it without the government. Nope, nope, nope.

Sad and frustrating, but they're sold on this.

.

What gets me is the moral component that both the right and the left attach to these discussions. Conservatives want to pretend that success is invariably the result of hard work and virtue. Liberals tend to believe that, without government intervention, the opposite is inevitable. The truth is nothing like either of those stories.

In a free market, success comes to people who can provide what other people want and can pay for. That's pretty much it. They might achieve that through diligent hard work, they might achieve it through blind dumb luck. Their efforts might make the world a better place, providing wholesome products and services to people who need them. Or they might pander to the lowest common denominator to make their way.

With the exception of people who win the lottery, success IS a result of hard work and virtue. And guess what? Those lottery winners aren't going to have their success long unless they buckle down and do the hard work of learning the virtues associated with long-term financial success. That's why nearly all lottery winners are broke within a couple of years of their jackpots.

Off the top of my head, I don't know of anyone else who achieves success financially without some work and virtue.

 

[initforme]

1) You cannot survive on minimum wage
2) Minimum wage jobs are for those who need nothing but a little extra. If one is paid minimum wage they should not be expected to work all that hard.
3) Alot of american companies love low educated people. They wont come out and say it but they do. Those people can be taken advantage of for low wages. Educated people know better.
4) Nothing can be done to close the gap between rich and poor in a plutocratic form of what we have.

 

[Cecilie1200]

When I can't afford McDonald's, I stop going to McDonald's.

Pretty simple.

And if a meal at McDonald's is going to cost the same as a meal at a steakhouse, because McDonald's is trying to pay its cashiers and Fryolator guys the same as the steakhouse servers and cooks get, then I might as well just go have a steak. The main reason to eat McDonald's is because their shit is CHEAP.

 

[Cecilie1200]

If you are her friend, then YOU should provide shelter for her if "not for her mother". But then again, rather than do something themselves, it's easier for liberals to sit on their fat asses and scream for the government to STEAL from others and give to those who deserve nothing.

How many friends have you had stay at your house rent free?

Rent-free? None. For a much, MUCH lower rent than they would pay either on their own or with a roommate? Several. Are you really so enamored of the idea of the government taking other people's money to fulfill your personal view of morality that you're actually incapable of acting individually on that alleged morality yourself?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Or perhaps it is time for that revolution that Thomas Jefferson knew would be necessary sooner or later. Hopefully a bloodless one, but one of a population that is sick to death of government meddling and rises up to protest it, stop it, replace it with representatives who represent us rather than exist only to increase their own power, prestige, influence, and personal fortunes.

That is what the Tea Party movement and similar groups are all about. If it catches on with enough people we won't be forced to dig in and smply endure an overreaching government but will change it instead.

Possible, but unlikely, IMHO.

But perhaps you have an example: When has government control anywhere, at anytime in human history, ever been reduced (without being completely destroyed)?

We're the United States. We've been unique throughout our history. I see no reason to assume we can't do something just because no one else ever has.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I see the exact opposite. Those who earn minimum wage lack the skills. experience or opportunity to compete for higher earning jobs. The jobs they do are usually involve hard work, no benefits and little prestige. The jobs that are for minimum wage involve hard work and close supervision to make sure they continuously work hard.

I believe that minimum wage should be increased for the following reasons:

1) A raise for minimum earners would allow them to spend more money.
2) A raise in minimum wage may allow some to escape poverty.
3) A raise in minimum wage will decrease the gap between rich and poor in this country.
4) For an employer, it is a cost-benefit analysis as to whether an employee is needed. While raising the minimum wage modestly may cause employers not to hire some, employers will still need to hire employees.

Why on earth pay people who lack skills more to do less???

That's asinine. There's no arguing with pure lunacy, why bother? People escape poverty by obtaining skills and increasing their value in the work place THAT'S how you escape poverty. You don't escape poverty by working at McDonald's. You get paid shit to obtain skills that allow you to compete for higher paying jobs.

I am not arguing to pay people more to do less. I am arguing to pay minimum wage earners more to do the work there are currently doing. Someone who works at McDonalds is working hard, probably harder than yourself, at a job that most people would not wish to do. They do so because they lack skills, but it is still honorable work. Think about that next time you order a big mac.

Why should you pay them more to do what they're already doing? Clearly, it's not worth more, or 1) they'd be getting more, and/or 2) they wouldn't be doing it.

As to the whine about "they work hard, probably harder than yourself", you obviously have never worked at a fast-food restaurant. I'm sitting in a McDonald's right this moment, as it happens, and I'm watching these "poor, downtrodden souls" with their "gruelingly hard labor". The three up front are looking at a screen and stuffing the listed items into takeout bags while chatting with each other. When they get done with that, they will turn around and punch keys on a computer pad to enter a new order into the system. Then they will take a handful of money, put it into a drawer, and hand out change. The good ones will then smile at the customer.

The ones in the back are also looking up at computer screens, then putting the necessary food on a grill, pushing a button, and standing there waiting until the computerized grill tells them to flip 'em. They're also chatting companionably with each other. Every single component of food preparation in this place, right down to filling drink cups at the drive-through, is mechanized and computerized, in order to make it as quick and uniform and simple as it is possible to be. This isn't exactly Oliver Twist's workhouse here, Chuckles.

I can't see a single thing any of these people are doing that's worth a cent more than they're already getting paid. And I know for a fact that their jobs pay better than the Burger King down the street, and are easier (because Burger King isn't nearly as computerized). So let's have a slowdown on the lachrymose pity for the "oppressed" here, shall we?

 

[initforme]

"I can't see a single thing any of these people are doing that's worth a cent more than they're already getting paid."


A slogan? I'm fine with paying a low wage. Just dont expect people to work hard for it. You get what you pay for. If I am paid $8 an hour, I show up and do the very minimal. No more, no less. Thats what employers should expect.

 

[Foxfyre]

"I can't see a single thing any of these people are doing that's worth a cent more than they're already getting paid."


A slogan? I'm fine with paying a low wage. Just dont expect people to work hard for it. You get what you pay for. If I am paid $8 an hour, I show up and do the very minimal. No more, no less. Thats what employers should expect.

Then again, folks who work hard for that low wage generally become more valuable to their employer and merit a better wage. If they don't, then they have great motivation to look for a better job and take it to get out of the lower paying one Expect people to do as little as they can get by with to get minimum wage, and you generally have peole who won't ever merit pay any better than minimum wage.

I also know from experience that starting somebody at a high wage isn't always going to get you an employee who is willing to merit that wage. The guy who is going to work just as hard as he has to to keep from being fired is somebody that no hourly wage is going to motivate to be productive.

 

[barry1960]

Those points speak to a complete ignorance in economics in general. You cannot fix a problem by simply demanding that people make more. That brings EVERYONE down and elevates nothing.

The response that a raise in minimum wage would lead to the exact same purchasing power shows an ignorance in economics. Such an analysis assumes that 100% of the cost of running a business is related to wages, but that is not true.

Say wages are 50% of running a business. The minimum wage is raised from $8 to $10 per gour. About 60% of those workers make minium wage, but their earnings constitute only 40% of the companies total wages. This represents a 25% increase in wages for the unskilled employees. However the cost of doing business increases only as follows:

(60% + (40% x 1.25)50% + 50% = 1.05 or a increase of 5% of production costs. Assuming that these costs are passed directly to the consumer, then the cost of goods increases 5%, but the earning power of the unskilled worker increases 20%. The net purchasing power increases 20% for those unskilled workers. The purchasing power of other workers goes down 5%.

Admittedly a simplistic model, but I hope you get the idea.

You see it as the opposite. However what you see does not apply to business in real world terms.
The way to get out of min wage is to improve one's skill set, educate one's self and perform tasks in an exemplary fashion.
Wages are not a gift. Employment is not en entitlement.

I was merely addressing your statement that raising the minimum wage would not increase the purchasing power of those who make minimum wage. Your resonse did not address such so my guess it the mathematics is beyond you even though it is of middle school level. That's OK.

As far as your most recent assertions, I agree that the best way to get out of minimum wage is to improve one's skill set. Of course wages are not a gift. The minimum wage earners I observe work hard for their money, so one could not categorize such as a gift. If you want an example of wages as a gift, just review the compensation of CEOs and other highly placed executives at firms that lost money.

 

[thereisnospoon]

1) You cannot survive on minimum wage
2) Minimum wage jobs are for those who need nothing but a little extra. If one is paid minimum wage they should not be expected to work all that hard.
3) Alot of american companies love low educated people. They wont come out and say it but they do. Those people can be taken advantage of for low wages. Educated people know better.
4) Nothing can be done to close the gap between rich and poor in a plutocratic form of what we have.

What a bunch of bullshit.
Now here's some impeccable logic.
I want to make more money so because I think i'm underpaid, I will be a slacker until they realize if I was paid a higher wage, I'd work harder"....Really dude?
Jobs that pay low wages are ones ambitious people work their way UP FROM.

 

[FA_Q2]

I see the exact opposite. Those who earn minimum wage lack the skills. experience or opportunity to compete for higher earning jobs. The jobs they do are usually involve hard work, no benefits and little prestige. The jobs that are for minimum wage involve hard work and close supervision to make sure they continuously work hard.

I believe that minimum wage should be increased for the following reasons:

1) A raise for minimum earners would allow them to spend more money.
They can spend more money and obtain the exact same goods because the price of things raises as the cost of making them raises.
2) A raise in minimum wage may allow some to escape poverty.
? How so. Making 2 bucks more an hour does nothing to raise you out of poverty in any way shape or form. Gaining experience, work ethics and valuable marketable skills gets you out of poverty. These things are not going to get any easier or harder if minimum wage is altered. In fact, your current wage has nothing to do with any of them...3) A raise in minimum wage will decrease the gap between rich and poor in this country.
Again, see the answer to the first point. It does NOTHING in this regard whatsoever.
4) For an employer, it is a cost-benefit analysis as to whether an employee is needed. While raising the minimum wage modestly may cause employers not to hire some, employers will still need to hire employees.
Sure, they can hire a few less AND raise the price of the end product getting you where?

Oh yes, fewer people working and those that are with the exact same purchasing power...

Those points speak to a complete ignorance in economics in general. You cannot fix a problem by simply demanding that people make more. That brings EVERYONE down and elevates nothing.

The response that a raise in minimum wage would lead to the exact same purchasing power shows an ignorance in economics. Such an analysis assumes that 100% of the cost of running a business is related to wages, but that is not true.

Say wages are 50% of running a business. The minimum wage is raised from $8 to $10 per gour. About 60% of those workers make minium wage, but their earnings constitute only 40% of the companies total wages. This represents a 25% increase in wages for the unskilled employees. However the cost of doing business increases only as follows:

(60% + (40% x 1.25)50% + 50% = 1.05 or a increase of 5% of production costs. Assuming that these costs are passed directly to the consumer, then the cost of goods increases 5%, but the earning power of the unskilled worker increases 20%. The net purchasing power increases 20% for those unskilled workers. The purchasing power of other workers goes down 5%.

Admittedly a simplistic model, but I hope you get the idea.

The word exact was not the right word to use here and that is my fault. That does not change the overall point though. You are simply not going to benefit employees by arbitrarily raising the minimum wage. Other factors like end item price and total employees hired are going to mitigate any real gains. That does not even take into account that some businesses may not even be able to profit at all and close their doors.

 

[FA_Q2]

1) You cannot survive on minimum wage
2) Minimum wage jobs are for those who need nothing but a little extra. If one is paid minimum wage they should not be expected to work all that hard.
3) Alot of american companies love low educated people. They wont come out and say it but they do. Those people can be taken advantage of for low wages. Educated people know better.
4) Nothing can be done to close the gap between rich and poor in a plutocratic form of what we have.

To 1 - oddly enough, I survived on my own making FAR LESS than minimum wage for a year when I joined the workforce. I guess you CAN actually make it on that amount of cash. The reality is that you may not like what you have to do without though.

To 4 - then I guess you have simply given up. Why are you even here then, it is all so hopeless. Give me a break. I guess the other asinine points now make sense though.

 

[conservationism]

I'm sitting in a McDonald's right this moment, as it happens, and I'm watching these "poor, downtrodden souls" with their "gruelingly hard labor". The three up front are looking at a screen and stuffing the listed items into takeout bags while chatting with each other. When they get done with that, they will turn around and punch keys on a computer pad to enter a new order into the system. Then they will take a handful of money, put it into a drawer, and hand out change. The good ones will then smile at the customer.

The question isn't working hard, but what abilities people have. If they have no skills, they'll always be poor. But it takes some brains and drive to have skills, and many people have neither.

Living on minimum wage is terrible, but in the old days you got a second part-time job and saved up to move on. The fact seems to be that most people are so lacking in brains and drive that if you just have a modicum of those, you'll advance...

Raising the minimum wage is actually going to be counterproductive. Businesses will hire fewer people.

 

[Cecilie1200]

"I can't see a single thing any of these people are doing that's worth a cent more than they're already getting paid."


A slogan? I'm fine with paying a low wage. Just dont expect people to work hard for it. You get what you pay for. If I am paid $8 an hour, I show up and do the very minimal. No more, no less. Thats what employers should expect.

You should learn the difference between a "slogan" and an observation.

Furthermore, "this is a crappy job, it doesn't pay enough, so it's not worth giving my best effort" is exactly the sort of lazy, shortsighted thinking that gets someone stuck with minimum wage at 45. I abso-fucking-lutely expect anyone who wants to get somewhere in life to have a better attitude and better work ethic, and THAT is not only what employers should expect, it's what they DO expect, and what they reward with continued employment.

If you've ever wondered why you have such a dead-end, shit career and why you're always the first person to be laid off when budget cuts come, look no further than this post. If I were your employer, I don't think it would take me more than a couple of weeks to figure out that my company could dispense with your nearly non-existent "services" and what you apparently consider the "high honor" of your unproductive presence.

 

[conservationism]

One thing I did when I was broke, was go to the grocery store and buy rice, beans and frozen veg. You can live on that for a long time. When I was more flush I got cheese to go with it. I learned the BRC (beans rice cheese) formula from a hippie once and its never let me down. Couldn't afford to go out to eat though, haha.