How do you explain a ordered universe without a Creator?

[frigidweirdo]

Yeah, so making things up and passing them off as reality is enlightenment, brilliance and good use of your brain?

You are free to disbelieve in enlightenment or anything beyond the physical universe. If you want to believe we are just meat computers walking around reacting only to biochemical programming. Go for it. From your reaction, I think that's a great summation of your value; a meat computer.

I didn't say you weren't free to believe in stuff. You can believe the moon is made out of cheese, that Obama was born in Kenya, hat Putin is the President of the USA. I also have the right to tell you that you're wrong, and provide evidence that you're wrong. I even have the right to insult you, but that would be rather childish (now, I like being childish quite a lot, but in a playful way, not a "I don't know anything and can't control my emotions" kind of way).

You seem to have taken what I said, and turned it into something else.

Making something up and believing it might be your right, but it doesn't make it right.

 

[hobelim]

While a agree that much of the Bible is allegorical, it reconfirms my belief that it is impossible for anyone to interpret original meanings. I also agree that much of the new Testament was in a sort of code in order to deceive the Romans as to it true meanings.

The problem is that, being allegorical, there is no single clear message. For example, I, too, spent time in the wilderness being tempted by the devil. In my case, it meant spending a year in Cedar Rapids, IA, where I was so miserable that I reconciled with my X-wife from where I used to live, just to keep from having to date farm girls whose only topic of conversation was last year's 4H project.

Dang! Nothing unclear about that. You do have my condolences.

Still, however you want to interpret it, according to the story, Jesus didn't stop partying. One thing that is made clear by that is that Jesus didn't think any of it was sinful, according to the story that is.

Why are we talking about some guy 2000 years ago value system. What do you think? Think for yourself. You need an ancient holy book to know right from wrong?

Let me put it this way. An ancient holy book has been the basis for our legal code for thousands of years and the teachings of some guy who lived 2000 years ago the standard by which right and wrong is measured and people are judged vindicated or condemned accordingly.

Obviously many of those who seek positions of power and authority cite their belief in that ancient book to win elections and profess allegiance to its teaching, writing laws, throwing people in jail, handing out death sentences, demonizing citizens, starting wars, all without knowing the meaning of the words or subjects about which they are so dogmatic.

Before anything is ever going to change for the better in society these blind hypocrites need to be removed from the places of authority that they have usurped through intimidation, corruption and deceit.

That will never be done without confuting their false claim to moral authority and by extirpating their perverted beliefs based on misinterpretations of that ancient holy book by showing the truth about where right and wrong and judgment lie.



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[Divine Wind]

....I don't say there is or isn't something. I just ask people questions and then they get angry because they can't answer.

Bullshit, but I appreciate your backpedal.

So you just "believe" something. It's easy to be right when you believe and don't know.

Yeah, so making things up and passing them off as reality is enlightenment, brilliance and good use of your brain?

Religion has always been about control (hence it's always been about politics, it's only recently, the last few hundred years or less that religion has played less of a part in politics).


Before there was a police force, there was religion.

People have always used religions to get their own way. Killing witches and things like that was using religious laws in order to police the state.

Pious IX, the longest serving Pope (well they claim Peter.... but....) in the modern era, he made "Papal Infallibility" which essentially said he could not err. What a ridiculous thing.

Then you have blasphemy, which is similar, you say something I don't like, I kill you.

Because religion causes so many problems, and is all made up anyway.

Islam is the religion of war, the US is the country of war. Perfect.

 

[sealybobo]

50 years ago every American took the bible literally.

Total. Utter. Nonsense.

There are entire religious denominations that were founded on the basis of differing viewpoints regarding literal interpretation in the Bible. It's been that way for more than 2,000 years. To somehow pretend that any discrepancies over what the Bible meant only began 50 years ago is laughably stupid. I mean... beyond dumb... borderline retarded.

You're right. Lots of closeted atheists and cherry pickers back then too.

But you know my point.

That you're borderline retarded?

50 years ago all Christians said "you'll go to hell" and most Christians today don't believe all non Christians are in hell. Look at the love everyone has for Mohammad Ali. No one thinks he's in hell. Only a few nuts do. But 50 years ago was much different. 1966.

No... 50 years ago, all Christians didn't collectively say anything. Again, Christians have all kinds of differing beliefs within Christianity.

I don't know of anyone who is speculating on where Ali's soul is at. His body is dead. Maybe his soul went to heaven or hell, or maybe it went to one of the 7 other dimensions in our universe that we can't relate with? I have no idea and any Christian who says they do is contradicting the first rule of Christianity... no judgement.

So yeah, things ARE different than 50 years ago, but you know what hasn't changed? Only 5% of the human race are Nihilist, the other 95% believe in something greater than self. That hasn't changed in over 100k years of human history and it won't change anytime soon.

Key word SOON

 

[there4eyeM]

Explaining a universe without a 'creator' is about the same as explaining an uncreated 'creator'.

 

[sealybobo]

Simple question, really. Why do so many people have a problem with it? Think about it. Order cannot come from chaos. At least not in this universe. Every bit of scientific knowledge we possess says it just can't happen. The universe is extremely ordered. It also contains vast amounts of information. Information has one source. Intelligence. Earthly intelligence is also the result of information. Can you say catch 22? This proves that information has a source that is outside this universe. What is this source? I believe that it is God. Can you come up with any other explanation?

Gravity

What IS gravity?

Why does it exist in our universe?

Why is the physical empirical constant 6.674×10−11 N⋅m2/kg2 in an otherwise "random" universe?

And more to the point of the question you answered... where is your proof that gravity is a source of information?

I don't know. Do you? Oh yea, must be a God, that care, and has a heaven waiting for you and hell for me.

Where did I hear this? A Christian. But like you said lots of different Christians believe lots of different things

 

[Divine Wind]

That's why Christians say "I believe in god" and trust in god. Gnosticism and Esotercis are not real christian ways. Keeps the problem: If everyone would know that Atheism is in general "only" a belief, why Atheism becomes more and more the state religion of Europe and the USA, while other regions of the world have also problems with the freedom of religion basing on gnosticistic and esoteric structures.

Says who? You? The Spanish Inquisition? The Southern Baptists? Who determines who is a real Christian and who is not, besides God, that is?

 

[Boss]

Explaining a universe without a 'creator' is about the same as explaining an uncreated 'creator'.

How would you go about proving "creation" of something spiritual?

 

[Divine Wind]

Explaining a universe without a 'creator' is about the same as explaining an uncreated 'creator'.

How would you go about proving "creation" of something spiritual?

Great point! I'm curious about that too. How can science prove something beyond the natural universe or, as you pointed out, before it was created/before the Big Bang?

 

[hobelim]

That's why Christians say "I believe in god" and trust in god. Gnosticism and Esotercis are not real christian ways. Keeps the problem: If everyone would know that Atheism is in general "only" a belief, why Atheism becomes more and more the state religion of Europe and the USA, while other regions of the world have also problems with the freedom of religion basing on gnosticistic and esoteric structures.

Says who? You? The Spanish Inquisition? The Southern Baptists? Who determines who is a real Christian and who is not, besides God, that is?

Anyone with a functioning brain can listen to what anyone says and determine whether they are full of it or not.

Some things cannot be faked.

 

[Boss]

Simple question, really. Why do so many people have a problem with it? Think about it. Order cannot come from chaos. At least not in this universe. Every bit of scientific knowledge we possess says it just can't happen. The universe is extremely ordered. It also contains vast amounts of information. Information has one source. Intelligence. Earthly intelligence is also the result of information. Can you say catch 22? This proves that information has a source that is outside this universe. What is this source? I believe that it is God. Can you come up with any other explanation?

Gravity

What IS gravity?

Why does it exist in our universe?

Why is the physical empirical constant 6.674×10−11 N⋅m2/kg2 in an otherwise "random" universe?

And more to the point of the question you answered... where is your proof that gravity is a source of information?

I don't know. Do you? Oh yea, must be a God, that care, and has a heaven waiting for you and hell for me.

Where did I hear this? A Christian. But like you said lots of different Christians believe lots of different things

Like I said.. I don't know. Neither do you...nor any 'do-gooder' Christians.

But I do have a brain... I am able to use logic. We exist in a universe that shouldn't be here, that came from nothingness, with precision-tuned constants that just so happen to be, on a perfectly balanced planet with a perfectly balanced ecosystem... all of which shouldn't be here and shouldn't exist at all...

You believe it all popped into existence for no particular reason and I believe we haven't discovered the reason.

 

[Divine Wind]

Anyone with a functioning brain can listen to what anyone says and determine whether they are full of it or not.

Some things cannot be faked.

While I agree with the statement in general, I'm not sure if you are agreeing with my post or not. Please expand further.

 

[sealybobo]

Simple question, really. Why do so many people have a problem with it? Think about it. Order cannot come from chaos. At least not in this universe. Every bit of scientific knowledge we possess says it just can't happen. The universe is extremely ordered. It also contains vast amounts of information. Information has one source. Intelligence. Earthly intelligence is also the result of information. Can you say catch 22? This proves that information has a source that is outside this universe. What is this source? I believe that it is God. Can you come up with any other explanation?

Gravity

What IS gravity?

Why does it exist in our universe?

Why is the physical empirical constant 6.674×10−11 N⋅m2/kg2 in an otherwise "random" universe?

And more to the point of the question you answered... where is your proof that gravity is a source of information?

I don't know. Do you? Oh yea, must be a God, that care, and has a heaven waiting for you and hell for me.

Where did I hear this? A Christian. But like you said lots of different Christians believe lots of different things

Like I said.. I don't know. Neither do you...nor any 'do-gooder' Christians.

But I do have a brain... I am able to use logic. We exist in a universe that shouldn't be here, that came from nothingness, with precision-tuned constants that just so happen to be, on a perfectly balanced planet with a perfectly balanced ecosystem... all of which shouldn't be here and shouldn't exist at all...

You believe it all popped into existence for no particular reason and I believe we haven't discovered the reason.

There is no reason. Everything you see that alive will someday die. Including every star. When that day comes look back and say what was the point?

But don't worry because 5 universes are born every second in the infinite cosmos

 

[Divine Wind]

But don't worry because 5 universes are born every second in the infinite cosmos

Uh, dude, the "cosmos" is our Universe. I think you meant to say "5 galaxies are born every second" although I don't know where you pulled that number from.

Definition of COSMOS
the cosmos : the universe especially when it is understood as an ordered system

 

[zaangalewa]

That's why Christians say "I believe in god" and trust in god. Gnosticism and Esotercis are not real christian ways. Keeps the problem: If everyone would know that Atheism is in general "only" a belief, why Atheism becomes more and more the state religion of Europe and the USA, while other regions of the world have also problems with the freedom of religion basing on gnosticistic and esoteric structures.

Says who? You? The Spanish Inquisition? The Southern Baptists? Who determines who is a real Christian and who is not, besides God, that is?

Says I on reasons of history, philosophy and psychology. The christian religion (- to be religious means to be rebound in god -) is not an unsolvable secret and/or an excluding hierarchie of a kind of pseudoscience. What is your problem?

 

[zaangalewa]

Explaining a universe without a 'creator' is about the same as explaining an uncreated 'creator'.

How would you go about proving "creation" of something spiritual?

The universe was not -> the universe was <= creation

 

[zaangalewa]

Explaining a universe without a 'creator' is about the same as explaining an uncreated 'creator'.

That's why it is stupid to ask for a prove of god in sense of the philosophy empirism. Let me ask you something else: Why is physics able to use mathematics for sensefull results? Mathematics is also "only" a kind of spirituality.

 

[zaangalewa]

Simple question, really. Why do so many people have a problem with it? Think about it. Order cannot come from chaos. At least not in this universe. Every bit of scientific knowledge we possess says it just can't happen. The universe is extremely ordered. It also contains vast amounts of information. Information has one source. Intelligence. Earthly intelligence is also the result of information. Can you say catch 22? This proves that information has a source that is outside this universe. What is this source? I believe that it is God. Can you come up with any other explanation?

Gravity

What IS gravity?

Why does it exist in our universe?

Why is the physical empirical constant 6.674×10−11 N⋅m2/kg2 in an otherwise "random" universe?

And more to the point of the question you answered... where is your proof that gravity is a source of information?

I don't know. Do you? Oh yea, must be a God, that care, and has a heaven waiting for you and hell for me.

Where did I hear this? A Christian. But like you said lots of different Christians believe lots of different things

Like I said.. I don't know. Neither do you...nor any 'do-gooder' Christians.

But I do have a brain... I am able to use logic. We exist in a universe that shouldn't be here, that came from nothingness, with precision-tuned constants that just so happen to be, on a perfectly balanced planet with a perfectly balanced ecosystem... all of which shouldn't be here and shouldn't exist at all...

You believe it all popped into existence for no particular reason and I believe we haven't discovered the reason.

There is no reason. Everything you see that alive will someday die. Including every star. When that day comes look back and say what was the point?

But don't worry because 5 universes are born every second in the infinite cosmos

If a multiversum should exist then the only way between the universes "within" (if it has an inside) of this multiverse could be "the logos", isn't it? Nothing else would be a common element. Says someone who believes in multiverses not nothing else than "I believe in the allmighty logos"? I don't see a problem to believe: "In the beginning of the world ... ah sorry: multiverse ... was the logos".

 

[Divine Wind]

Says I ...

Agreed. Hence my point.

 

[Boss]

There is no reason. Everything you see that alive will someday die. Including every star. When that day comes look back and say what was the point?

But don't worry because 5 universes are born every second in the infinite cosmos

Sounds like GOD is pretty busy to me!