How do you explain a ordered universe without a Creator?

[frigidweirdo]

I fail to see how....

Of course you don't. You don't even see how you assert your own paradigm onto others, such as myself. You don't see why I disagree with you. You don't see how your accusations are false and assumptive as I posted previously:

....I don't say there is or isn't something. I just ask people questions and then they get angry because they can't answer.

Bullshit, but I appreciate your backpedal.

So you just "believe" something. It's easy to be right when you believe and don't know.

Yeah, so making things up and passing them off as reality is enlightenment, brilliance and good use of your brain?

Religion has always been about control (hence it's always been about politics, it's only recently, the last few hundred years or less that religion has played less of a part in politics).


Before there was a police force, there was religion.

People have always used religions to get their own way. Killing witches and things like that was using religious laws in order to police the state.

Pious IX, the longest serving Pope (well they claim Peter.... but....) in the modern era, he made "Papal Infallibility" which essentially said he could not err. What a ridiculous thing.

Then you have blasphemy, which is similar, you say something I don't like, I kill you.

Because religion causes so many problems, and is all made up anyway.

Islam is the religion of war, the US is the country of war. Perfect.

No, I don't see it because you're just making stuff up. Then you're attacking me for the stuff you made up.

I mean, you even quoted me saying something, then had a go at me for not thinking the thing I had said. I mean, WHAT CAN I DO?

 

[Divine Wind]

No, I don't see it because you're just making stuff up. Then you're attacking me for the stuff you made up.

I mean, you even quoted me saying something, then had a go at me for not thinking the thing I had said. I mean, WHAT CAN I DO?

No worries. I never try to convince extremists of any order. My point is like presenting a case to a jury, not a judge.

 

[frigidweirdo]

No, I don't see it because you're just making stuff up. Then you're attacking me for the stuff you made up.

I mean, you even quoted me saying something, then had a go at me for not thinking the thing I had said. I mean, WHAT CAN I DO?

No worries. I never try to convince extremists of any order. My point is like presenting a case to a jury, not a judge.

What case have you tried to present, exactly? The case of trying to people believe stuff you just made up?

 

[sealybobo]

But don't worry because 5 universes are born every second in the infinite cosmos

Uh, dude, the "cosmos" is our Universe. I think you meant to say "5 galaxies are born every second" although I don't know where you pulled that number from.

Definition of COSMOS
the cosmos : the universe especially when it is understood as an ordered system

What do you call the universes outside of our universe?

 

[sealybobo]

There is no reason. Everything you see that alive will someday die. Including every star. When that day comes look back and say what was the point?

But don't worry because 5 universes are born every second in the infinite cosmos

Sounds like GOD is pretty busy to me!

What do you think is the ultimate purpose is?

 

[sealybobo]

D

There is no reason. Everything you see that alive will someday die. Including every star. When that day comes look back and say what was the point?

But don't worry because 5 universes are born every second in the infinite cosmos

Sounds like GOD is pretty busy to me!

Did you know your God has a God? And that God serves a God? And even that God believes in something greater than self. It too wonders how and why it was put here.

 

[sealybobo]

But don't worry because 5 universes are born every second in the infinite cosmos

Uh, dude, the "cosmos" is our Universe. I think you meant to say "5 galaxies are born every second" although I don't know where you pulled that number from.

Definition of COSMOS
the cosmos : the universe especially when it is understood as an ordered system

Do you understand the cosmos go out in each direction and go for infinity? Our little universe is just one universe of an infinite time and space.

Think about just our universe. OK? Put it in a box in your mind. Got it? Now what's beyond that?

Even if you believe in God, are you really putting God inside a box? You're saying God can't go somewhere beyond our little universe?

 

[sealybobo]

Everything alive is just that; reason is not directly connected.

If you find something alive that you can't discover the reason why it is alive, then you haven't discovered the reason.... it doesn't mean there isn't one. Could be, you are conflating "reason" with "purpose" and those are different things.

Again, Science is the actually study of examining reasons for things in the physical universe. To proclaim something has no reason is abandoning Science for a faith-based conclusion which is simply incorrect. You may not have yet discovered the reason but you can be certain a reason does exist. That's where Science comes in.

It appears our suns purpose is to keep us alive. What happens when our sun dies out? What will have been the purpose?

You can give your life purpose but ultimately there is no purpose. What do you speculate the purpose is?

 

[sealybobo]

But then again God has Muslims worshiping him, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and so on too...... are they all right? If so then maybe differences among Christians make no difference. Or maybe they're all wrong.

Maybe they are all right. Ever consider that? Not the 1-2% nut jobs, but the 98-99% who are seeking a spiritual awakening.

If the number was that low I wouldn't run into so many atheists.

Interestingly in Europe they aren't as religious and believe more in evolution. No coincidence

 

[zaangalewa]

Says I ...

Agreed. Hence my point.

Only because you agree or disagree nothing becomes right or wrong. Tell me please why gnosticism and esoterics are important for you. And what's the name of your church?

 

[Boss]

What do you call the universes outside of our universe?

Something you can't prove the existence of?

 

[Boss]

What do you think is the ultimate purpose is?

It appears our suns purpose is to keep us alive. What happens when our sun dies out? What will have been the purpose?
You can give your life purpose but ultimately there is no purpose. What do you speculate the purpose is?

When I said everything happens for a reason and you refuted things have reason, I told you that you might be conflating "reason" with "purpose" and now, here you are asking me about "purpose"... purpose this--purpose that!

Can you honestly not comprehend the difference between a reason and a purpose?

Read the series of things you just reeled off... First you ask what the ultimate purpose is... then you state what appears to be the purpose of the sun... then you ask what will the purpose have been when the sun dies... then you proclaim there is ultimately no purpose... then you ask me what the purpose is.

Maybe our souls are at a spiritual carnival and this is the Physical Reality Mind Bender ride? We bought our ticket and we're experiencing a physical sense of reality for a limited time when the ride will finally end. In that case, maybe the purpose is simply amusement for our souls?

Or maybe this is the primer course for our souls to learn how to advance to the next stage? At the end of our life, some will graduate and move on to the next kind of reality and others won't graduate.

I don't know the purpose but that's okay, I don't have to know the purpose to find reason. I can look around in nature and see that everything has a reason. There is nothing that exists without reason. We may not yet understand the reason but we know there is one. So there has to be some reason we are spiritually hard wired the way we are. I think it has to be tied to the reason the universe is ordered and fine tuned as it is.

 

[Boss]

Did you know your God has a God? And that God serves a God? And even that God believes in something greater than self. It too wonders how and why it was put here.

I didn't think you believed Gods exist?

 

[Boss]

Do you understand the cosmos go out in each direction and go for infinity? Our little universe is just one universe of an infinite time and space.

Think about just our universe. OK? Put it in a box in your mind. Got it? Now what's beyond that?

Even if you believe in God, are you really putting God inside a box? You're saying God can't go somewhere beyond our little universe?

If there IS anything outside the cosmos (we do not know this)... then God also create that. I don't see where anyone has limited God to just this one universe. God is also not limited to only creating life on Earth.

But I would like to go back to another statement you're making... what is infinity? Give me the math formula to calculate the value of ∞. If you cannot define the value of it, then you cannot measure it. If you cannot measure it, you cannot test it. If you can't test or measure it, you simply can't apply physical sciences to it. Infinity is not a physical property. It can only be imagined in a philosophical (spiritual) context. If you believe in "infinite time and space" then you ostensibly believe in God. There is really no difference other than the language you're using to define it.

 

[Dr Grump]

Simple question, really. Why do so many people have a problem with it? Think about it. Order cannot come from chaos. At least not in this universe. Every bit of scientific knowledge we possess says it just can't happen. The universe is extremely ordered. It also contains vast amounts of information. Information has one source. Intelligence. Earthly intelligence is also the result of information. Can you say catch 22? This proves that information has a source that is outside this universe. What is this source? I believe that it is God. Can you come up with any other explanation?

Who created God..

 

[zaangalewa]

... Who created God..

What was existing before god created existance? Answer: Nothing! So god made out of nothing everything - even things we do not know now. The "who" of your question was not existing once - and even the existance itselve was not existing once. From our human point of view even god was not existing once when he created the existance of the creation. - but not because god was not existing he was not existing - he was not existing because existance was not existing. He created everything when he was not. He was not "creation" - he's "the creator".

If you like to know what christians believe - also protestants and evangelical Christians and not only Catholics and orthodox Christians (with a little exception) - then you can take a look at the athanasian creed. Perhaps you - and some million other individuals of your atheistic "church" - are in this way able to understand what we Christians are speaking about in context "creation":

----
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, ...
----

Oh sorry. Before god created the declaration of independendance with the help of some people, who tried to understand him, he had first to do something else ...


The Athanasian Creed
-----
Quicumque vult salvus esse,
ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem:

Quam nisi quisque integram inviolatamque servaverit,
absque dubio in aeternum peribit.

Fides autem catholica haec est:
ut unum Deum in Trinitate,
et Trinitatem in unitate veneremur:

Neque confundentes personas,
neque substantiam separantes.

Alia est enim persona Patris, alia Filii,
alia Spiritus Sancti.

Sed Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti una est divinitas,
aequalis gloria, coeterna maiestas.

Qualis Pater, talis Filius,
talis Spiritus Sanctus.

Increatus Pater, increatus Filius,
increatus Spiritus Sanctus.

Immensus Pater, immensus Filius,
immensus Spiritus Sanctus.

Aeternus Pater, aeternus Filius,
aeternus Spiritus Sanctus.

Et tamen non tres aeterni,
sed unus aeternus.

Sicut non tres increati, nec tres immensi,
sed unus increatus, et unus immensus.

Similiter omnipotens Pater, omnipotens Filius,
omnipotens Spiritus Sanctus.

Et tamen non tres omnipotentes,
sed unus omnipotens.

Ita Deus Pater, Deus Filius,
Deus Spiritus Sanctus.

Et tamen non tres Dii,
sed unus est Deus.

Ita Dominus Pater, Dominus Filius,
Dominus Spiritus Sanctus.

Et tamen non tres Domini,
sed unus est Dominus.

Quia sicut singillatim unamquamque personam Deum ac Dominum confiteri christiana veritate compellimur:
ita tres Deos aut Dominos dicere catholica religione prohibemur.

Pater a nullo est factus:
nec creatus, nec genitus.

Filius a Patre solo est:
non factus, nec creatus, sed genitus.

Spiritus Sanctus a Patre et Filio:
non factus, nec creatus, nec genitus, sed procedens.

Unus ergo Pater, non tres Patres:
unus Filius, non tres Filii:
unus Spiritus Sanctus, non tres Spiritus Sancti.

Et in hac Trinitate nihil prius aut posterius,
nihil maius aut minus:
sed totae tres personae coaeternae sibi sunt et coaequales.

Ita ut per omnia, sicut iam supra dictum est,
et unitas in Trinitate,
et Trinitas in unitate veneranda sit.

Qui vult ergo salvus esse,
ita de Trinitate sentiat.

Sed necessarium est ad aeternam salutem,
ut Incarnationem quoque Domini nostri Iesu Christi fideliter credat.

Est ergo fides recta, ut credamus et confiteamur,
quia Dominus noster Iesus Christus Dei Filius,
Deus et homo est.

Deus est ex substantia Patris ante saecula genitus:
et homo est ex substantia matris in saeculo natus.

Perfectus Deus, perfectus homo:
ex anima rationali et humana carne subsistens.

Aequalis Patri secundum divinitatem:
minor Patre secundum humanitatem.

Qui, licet Deus sit et homo,
non duo tamen, sed unus est Christus:

Unus autem non conversione divinitatis in carnem,
sed assumptione humanitatis in Deum:

Unus omnino non confusione substantiae,
sed unitate personae.

Nam sicut anima rationalis et caro unus est homo:
ita Deus et homo unus est Christus.

Qui passus est pro salute nostra, descendit ad inferos:
tertia die resurrexit a mortuis.

Ascendit ad caelos, sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis:
inde venturus est iudicare vivos et mortuos.

Ad cuius adventum omnes homines resurgere habent cum corporibus suis:
et reddituri sunt de factis propriis rationem.

Et qui bona egerunt, ibunt in vitam aeternam:
qui vero mala, in ignem aeternum.

Haec est fides catholica,
quam nisi quisque fideliter firmiterque crediderit,
salvus esse non poterit.
-----

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.
-----

 

[Boss]

Who created God..

Never fails.

Why do non-believers constantly and consistently raise this rhetorical ignorant question and think they are being clever and smug? Is it because your mind simply can't wrap itself around the concept of something spiritual existing? When us mortal human beings use the word "created" ...which, btw, we created.... It generally means to bring into physical existence in an objective reality. BUT... By it's very nature... pardon the pun... Spiritual Nature is not physical or doesn't have physical existence in objective physical reality.

So what the hell do you mean by "create" when applied to a spiritual entity? How would you go about creating something spiritual? Better yet, how could you prove it or evaluate the evidence for it? You see.... we have a major breakdown of communication here because your brain can't comprehend spiritual existence. For you, the ONLY kind of existence is physical.

This is important because it is the root of why you are a disbeliever.

Since you can only comprehend physical existence, when people say that "God exists" you find no physical evidence of a God existing and conclude that it's ridiculous. I wholeheartedly agree... it is ridiculous to believe in an invisible physical being floating around everywhere all at the same time. Especially if the being is adorned with all sorts of humanistic attributes... love, hate, jealousy, anger, needs... those are human physical attributes that I don't think apply to spiritual omnipotent entities. Obviously, a lot of religious people disagree with me on that. But whatever.

The point is.... there is a Spiritual Nature just like there is a Physical Nature... they are both Natural. Neither are Supernatural. They are the Yin/Yang. Our objective reality is tied to the Physical and our souls and spirit are tied to the Spiritual. Most of our thoughts, emotions and principles are guided by our spirit and our spiritual connection. But you are trapped in your mind because you can only imagine the Physical.

Finally... Physics proves Spiritual Nature's existence. I know that comes as a real shocker but pay attention... According to laws of physics, there is not an explanation for how physical nature created itself. It is a paradoxical contradiction. Physical nature exists and therefore, something caused it to exist. It cannot cause itself to exist.... nothing physical can. Energy and Matter cannot be created, and yet... Energy and Matter WERE created. They HAD to have been because they exist in Physical Nature.

 

[there4eyeM]

Language can be turned almost any number of ways. It could be stated, for example, that the universe exists because it can. Yet, even that statement posits a 'because'. But, because we do not know, whatever we say can only express a personal intuition of whatever 'absolute truth' may be. And, that personal concept cannot be expected to apply to others.
This leaves each perceiver as the center of a personal, perceptual universe. So far, that is all that can be proved.

 

[zaangalewa]

Language can be turned almost any number of ways. It could be stated, for example, that the universe exists because it can. Yet, even that statement posits a 'because'. But, because we do not know, whatever we say can only express a personal intuition of whatever 'absolute truth' may be. And, that personal concept cannot be expected to apply to others.
This leaves each perceiver as the center of a personal, perceptual universe. So far, that is all that can be proved.

If the universe had a first [be-]cause - and it looks like, because the universe expands - then we know about this very first cause that this cause had no cause - otherwise it would had not been able to be a first cause. So what do you like to prove in case of a first cause? And what has this to do with any personal statement? It's just simple true. "A first cause is without cause" is a true statement. So we are not able to know what caused the first cause of our own existance. But we are - and a first cause was. Strange, isn't it? - because "nothing comes from nothing" seems also to be true. How to avoid such a paradox? Wherin do you like to flee from your past of the last few billion years - the causes, which build you? In empty phrases?

 

[Divine Wind]

But don't worry because 5 universes are born every second in the infinite cosmos

Uh, dude, the "cosmos" is our Universe. I think you meant to say "5 galaxies are born every second" although I don't know where you pulled that number from.

Definition of COSMOS
the cosmos : the universe especially when it is understood as an ordered system

What do you call the universes outside of our universe?

Universes. A cosmos is the Universe. You can't have a universe inside a universe.