How dumb is our leadership? Negotiate with N Korea AGAIN

[georgephillip]

george, you ignored the fact your source is incorrect re: Korea.

Also, curious to see your response to these -
Taliban kill head of Afghan girls' school
Taliban kill head of Afghan girls' school | World news | The Guardian

On Tuesday afternoon, Taliban militants attacked and seriously injured Malala Yousafzai, a fourteen-year-old campaigner for education for girls in Mingora, a town in Swat Valley, in Pakistan’s North Western Frontier Province. Malala was returning home from school when the men attacked; a fellow-student and a teacher were injured as well.

The Shooting of Malala Yousafzai, The Girl Who Wanted to Go to School : The New Yorker
Taliban beheads 17 Afghan partygoers; 2 NATO troops killed - The Washington Post

"Girls have returned to schools in recent years, particularly in Kabul, although such rights are harder to enforce in the more remote and conservative areas of Afghanistan."

Taliban kill head of Afghan girls' school | World news | The Guardian

What's your point, conservatives are fucked up everywhere?

The Taliban weren't always in charge of rural education in Afghanistan.
They came to power in the aftermath of a civil war following the soviet retreat.
For all you know the weapons they used to attack Malala and the head of the Afghan girls' school came from the CIA originally.

The US has been occupying Afghanistan for over a decade and there's absolutely no option of a military victory. When the troops come home, the war whores and collaborators in the Afghan government will take their billions of US tax dollars and defect to Switzerland, and the Taliban will be back in charge.

How many more Afghan corpses do you want US Marines to piss on before that day?

 

[bitterlyclingin]

Hiow do you spell "Munich, September, 1938"?
John Kerry never met a tyrant he wasn't ready, willing, and able to surrender to.
"The appearance of weakness always begets aggression."
"The Japanese were astounded at how graciously accommodating the Western Democracies were (to Germany) and began making plans of their own" "A World At Arms" Gerhard Weinburg

 

[georgephillip]

Why not negotiate with North Korea? This is th way the game has been played for 60 years. They act all crazy threatening everyone. We offer them some trade I they stop acting crazy and they claim victory

Big deal

That would give Obama the Big Historical Stage He's Here For.
Clinton and Carter have both been to North Korea.
This morning I listened on the radio to a US citizen who toured there recently.
If anybody alive can talk to Kim, it's probably Obama.

 

[depotoo]

george, you ignored the fact your source is incorrect re: Korea.

Also, curious to see your response to these -
Taliban kill head of Afghan girls' school
Taliban kill head of Afghan girls' school | World news | The Guardian

On Tuesday afternoon, Taliban militants attacked and seriously injured Malala Yousafzai, a fourteen-year-old campaigner for education for girls in Mingora, a town in Swat Valley, in Pakistan’s North Western Frontier Province. Malala was returning home from school when the men attacked; a fellow-student and a teacher were injured as well.

The Shooting of Malala Yousafzai, The Girl Who Wanted to Go to School : The New Yorker
Taliban beheads 17 Afghan partygoers; 2 NATO troops killed - The Washington Post

"Girls have returned to schools in recent years, particularly in Kabul, although such rights are harder to enforce in the more remote and conservative areas of Afghanistan."

Taliban kill head of Afghan girls' school | World news | The Guardian

What's your point, conservatives are fucked up everywhere?

The Taliban weren't always in charge of rural education in Afghanistan.
They came to power in the aftermath of a civil war following the soviet retreat.
For all you know the weapons they used to attack Malala and the head of the Afghan girls' school came from the CIA originally.

The US has been occupying Afghanistan for over a decade and there's absolutely no option of a military victory. When the troops come home, the war whores and collaborators in the Afghan government will take their billions of US tax dollars and defect to Switzerland, and the Taliban will be back in charge.

How many more Afghan corpses do you want US Marines to piss on before that day?

ok, I am done with you, but don't think I won't correct you when you blatantly lie. I realize you are here only to disrupt, and to misinform. Are you a paid political propogandist?
Truth doesn't exist in your vocabulary.

 

[rightwinger]

Why not negotiate with North Korea? This is th way the game has been played for 60 years. They act all crazy threatening everyone. We offer them some trade I they stop acting crazy and they claim victory

Big deal

could have something to do with they now have nuclear weapons, which they didn't for those 60 years...

They have the capability to do some damage in which the retaliation would be to wipe them off the map

do they want to poke the beehive with a stick?

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Snip:

The United States and Japan on Sunday offered new talks with North Korea to resolve the increasingly dangerous standoff over its nuclear and missile programs, but said the reclusive communist government first must lower tensions and honor previous agreements.

Sound familiar? Do you suppose it will be magically different this time?

I don’t understand the problem here?

What do you want us to do? Ignore them? Attack them? Nothing?

There is not answer. We have to talk because that is all we can do at this juncture. AFAIK, we don’t really trade with them at all, we cannot stop China from trading with them (and that would require, you know, TALKING), we have almost no influence whatsoever over there policies. All we have left is to throw reason at the wall again and watch it die miserably. Until NK actually does something that warrants retaliation on a mass scale, nothing is going to change.

Kerry is offering the prospect of aid AGAIN. And AGAIN North Korea will play us for fools.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....that was (always) Lil' Dumbya's job.....


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejph4LBdmmc]WMD LIES - Bush Cheney Rumsfeld etc. - THE ULTIMATE CLIP - YouTube[/ame]​

 

[rightwinger]

Hiow do you spell "Munich, September, 1938"?
John Kerry never met a tyrant he wasn't ready, willing, and able to surrender to.
"The appearance of weakness always begets aggression."
"The Japanese were astounded at how graciously accommodating the Western Democracies were (to Germany) and began making plans of their own" "A World At Arms" Gerhard Weinburg

How is the situation of North Korea remotely equivalent to Nazi Germany?

Do you have any understanding of history?

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Kerry is offering the prospect of aid AGAIN. And AGAIN North Korea will play us for fools.

Isolate and ignore while keeping a watchful eye is the ONLY logical solution imo.

Certainly, it is insane to repeatedly have the same results and continue doing the same things expecting a different result. That said, 'offering' is not giving. The carrot can still be offered as long as a different attitude on NK's part is required.

and what happened the last time they promised and we once again gave them aid?

"But then there was Bush."

 

[Mr. Shaman]

The US is the fat rich kid. NK is the bully threatening the fat boy's self esteem. SK is the little girl crying in fear but looking through the fingers over her eyes to see if the fat boy is going for his wallet.

Reagan paid up. Pap Bush paid up. Clinton paid up. The Bush League paid up.

Please!

The Bush League must have been DRUNK.....
....and, SHOT THE WHOLE DEAL, IN-THE-ASS!!!

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

How many times are we going to fall for this mousetrap? How many times are we going to let Lucy pull the football out from under us?

Time and again North Korea stomps its feet and we come running with the latest edition of HOW STUPID IS AMERICA

Washington Post

This time? Pretty smart. We need to back out of this situation right now - whatever it takes - this is very bad timing and imo this is the right call.

Jeri

 

[Flopper]

Snip:

The United States and Japan on Sunday offered new talks with North Korea to resolve the increasingly dangerous standoff over its nuclear and missile programs, but said the reclusive communist government first must lower tensions and honor previous agreements.

Sound familiar? Do you suppose it will be magically different this time?

I don’t understand the problem here?

What do you want us to do? Ignore them? Attack them? Nothing?

There is not answer. We have to talk because that is all we can do at this juncture. AFAIK, we don’t really trade with them at all, we cannot stop China from trading with them (and that would require, you know, TALKING), we have almost no influence whatsoever over there policies. All we have left is to throw reason at the wall again and watch it die miserably. Until NK actually does something that warrants retaliation on a mass scale, nothing is going to change.

Kerry is offering the prospect of aid AGAIN. And AGAIN North Korea will play us for fools.

Isolate and ignore while keeping a watchful eye is the ONLY logical solution imo.

All US aid comes with strings attached. Any aid the US offers will be tied to some limits on nuclear weapons. Maybe all this will be just so much rhetoric but as Churchill said, "Jaw-jaw is always better than to war-war."

 

[boilermaker55]

Some don't stop to think that politics and statesmanship is not always black and white.

Snip:

The United States and Japan on Sunday offered new talks with North Korea to resolve the increasingly dangerous standoff over its nuclear and missile programs, but said the reclusive communist government first must lower tensions and honor previous agreements.

Sound familiar? Do you suppose it will be magically different this time?

In the context, this is necessary in the visible political realm. It is what is going on behind the scenes that counts. America should be pushing a collective Sino-American front to resolve the issue more permanently.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Why not negotiate with North Korea? This is th way the game has been played for 60 years. They act all crazy threatening everyone. We offer them some trade I they stop acting crazy and they claim victory

Big deal

That would give Obama the Big Historical Stage He's Here For.
Clinton and Carter have both been to North Korea.
This morning I listened on the radio to a US citizen who toured there recently.
If anybody alive can talk to Kim, it's probably Obama.

EXACTLY!!!!!!

How amusing it's gonna be....as more-and-MORE "conservatives" are made aware (as, they're not the best-educated historians) of Lil' Dumbya's MAJOR FUCK-UP, after our last agreement with North Korea!!!!!

. . . . ​

 

[Dutch]

With the war in Afghanistan winding down the defense industry needs another threat to justify the massive military spending. Defense contractors are licking their chops hoping the fat little Korean blunders N korea into War.

 

[georgephillip]

Which one of my Korean sources is incorrect?

Today, 04:06 PM
depotoo
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Quote: Originally Posted by georgephillip

Most Americans are unaware of the US kill rate during the Korean War which equaled more than one 911 per day for each and every one of the 1100 days of a conflict which would never have occurred if the US hadn't prevented Korean independence in 1945. That could make some people foot-stomping mad.

Quote: Originally Posted by depotoo
hey george, mind providing a link?

Quote: Originally Posted by georgephillip
You probably won't approve of my source, but here it is:

"The US may have killed 20% of the population of Korea, said General Curtis Lemay, who was involved in the US air war on Korea. If so, that is a higher rate of genocidal slaughter than what the Nazis inflicted on Poland or the Soviet Union.

"The Korean War may be unknown ancient history to us, but it is no more ancient history to Koreans than the Nakba is to Palestinians."

North Korea?s Justifiable Anger » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

The body count in Korea is controversial,
Can you suggest a reliable authority we might both agree on?

Quote: Originally Posted by depotoo
of course I don't, and your figure includes all deaths in that war, thus includes the killing of all by all. And we provided 300,000 soldiers to fight that war in which almost 34,000 were killed. That in itself is a rate of 11.3% US soldiers involved were killed.

The entire population of Korea in 1949 was over 20 million people. Even according to the highest exagerrated stats of those killed there that would have been less than 5% of the population there.
You also seem to not realize there were 20 other nations from the UN that participated in that war.

The figures will probably always vary wildly depending on which side you're listening to.
Here's what Wiki says:

"Total civilians killed/wounded: 2.5 million (est.)[9]
South Korea: 990,968
373,599 killed[9]
229,625 wounded[9]
387,744 abducted/missing[9]
North Korea: 1,550,000 (est.)"

Korean War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Other accounts place the population of North Korea at 9 million when the war began with about six million survivors in 1953. Whatever the actual numbers, hundreds of thousands of North Korean civilians died primarily from US air power, and they haven't forgotten or forgiven.

 

[depotoo]

Which one of my Korean sources is incorrect?

Today, 04:06 PM
depotoo
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Quote: Originally Posted by georgephillip

Most Americans are unaware of the US kill rate during the Korean War which equaled more than one 911 per day for each and every one of the 1100 days of a conflict which would never have occurred if the US hadn't prevented Korean independence in 1945. That could make some people foot-stomping mad.

Quote: Originally Posted by depotoo
hey george, mind providing a link?

Quote: Originally Posted by georgephillip
You probably won't approve of my source, but here it is:

"The US may have killed 20% of the population of Korea, said General Curtis Lemay, who was involved in the US air war on Korea. If so, that is a higher rate of genocidal slaughter than what the Nazis inflicted on Poland or the Soviet Union.

"The Korean War may be unknown ancient history to us, but it is no more ancient history to Koreans than the Nakba is to Palestinians."

North Korea?s Justifiable Anger » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

The body count in Korea is controversial,
Can you suggest a reliable authority we might both agree on?

Quote: Originally Posted by depotoo
of course I don't, and your figure includes all deaths in that war, thus includes the killing of all by all. And we provided 300,000 soldiers to fight that war in which almost 34,000 were killed. That in itself is a rate of 11.3% US soldiers involved were killed.

The entire population of Korea in 1949 was over 20 million people. Even according to the highest exagerrated stats of those killed there that would have been less than 5% of the population there.
You also seem to not realize there were 20 other nations from the UN that participated in that war.

The figures will probably always vary wildly depending on which side you're listening to.
Here's what Wiki says:

"Total civilians killed/wounded: 2.5 million (est.)[9]
South Korea: 990,968
373,599 killed[9]
229,625 wounded[9]
387,744 abducted/missing[9]
North Korea: 1,550,000 (est.)"

Korean War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Other accounts place the population of North Korea at 9 million when the war began with about six million survivors in 1953. Whatever the actual numbers, hundreds of thousands of North Korean civilians died primarily from US air power, and they haven't forgotten or forgiven.

once again, you stated possibly 20% of their population. You are wrong. Very wrong. Not even your erroneous figures you just posted support that.
And most figures agree with total for all sides deaths totalled around 1.2 million.

 

[georgephillip]

How dumb is our leadership? Negotiate with N Korea AGAIN

....More-commonly-referred-to as.....another DEM......​

....cleaning-UP....after another BUSH!​

"In June 1994, former President Carter went to North Korea to negotiate with Kim Il Sung, president of North Korea. These negotiations were a great success. North Korea committed to freezing its plutonium weapons program in exchange for two proliferation-resistant nuclear reactors and other aid. As President Carter explained,

Responding to a standing invitation from North Korean President Kim Il Sung and with the approval of President Bill Clinton, I went to Pyongyang and helped to secure an agreement that North Korea would cease its nuclear program at Yongbyon and permit I.A.E.A. inspectors to return to the site to assure that the spent fuel was not reprocessed. In return, the United States and our allies subsequently assured the North Koreans that there would be no nuclear threat to them, that a supply of fuel oil would be provided to replace the power lost by terminating the Yongbyon nuclear program and that two modern nuclear plants would also be provided, with their fuel supplies to be monitored by international inspectors. [Carter, "Engaging North Korea," The New York Times, October 27, 2002]

And, in spite of what the righties will tell you, the North Koreans kept this agreement. The plutonium processing at Yongbyon and elsewhere stopped, and IAEA inspectors were allowed back into North Korea. The plutonium processors were sealed with IAEA seals.

But then there was Bush.

Kim Dae Jung came to Washington in March 2001 to pay respects to the new U.S. President Bush and ask for his support for the Sunshine Policy. And what happened?

Bush dissed him, that's what. The arrogant little twerp snubbed a Nobel Prize winner and friend to America. And when word of the snub reached North Korea, the "Sunshine Policy" died.

That's right, folks....when it comes to fuckin'-UP.....NOBODY gets the job done like Lil' DUMBYA!!!!!

"In 1994, western intelligence sources realized that a reprocessing complex being built at Yongbyon included a gas graphite reactor designed specifically for separating plutonium from nuclear waste. This scared the stuffing out of lots of people. The IAEA believed North Korea was hiding more plutonium somewhere. And then North Korea announced it was restricting IAEA inspections. Matters came to a head in June 1994, when North Korea relinquished its IAEA membership and all the inspectors cleared out of the country."

That's the point when Jimmy rode to the rescue.
'Think Dick Cheney was busy fishing?

Blame Bush for North Korea's Nukes

 

[georgephillip]

Today, 04:06 PM
depotoo
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Quote: Originally Posted by georgephillip

Most Americans are unaware of the US kill rate during the Korean War which equaled more than one 911 per day for each and every one of the 1100 days of a conflict which would never have occurred if the US hadn't prevented Korean independence in 1945. That could make some people foot-stomping mad.

Quote: Originally Posted by depotoo
hey george, mind providing a link?

Quote: Originally Posted by georgephillip
You probably won't approve of my source, but here it is:

"The US may have killed 20% of the population of Korea, said General Curtis Lemay, who was involved in the US air war on Korea. If so, that is a higher rate of genocidal slaughter than what the Nazis inflicted on Poland or the Soviet Union.

"The Korean War may be unknown ancient history to us, but it is no more ancient history to Koreans than the Nakba is to Palestinians."

North Korea?s Justifiable Anger » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

The body count in Korea is controversial,
Can you suggest a reliable authority we might both agree on?

Quote: Originally Posted by depotoo
of course I don't, and your figure includes all deaths in that war, thus includes the killing of all by all. And we provided 300,000 soldiers to fight that war in which almost 34,000 were killed. That in itself is a rate of 11.3% US soldiers involved were killed.

The entire population of Korea in 1949 was over 20 million people. Even according to the highest exagerrated stats of those killed there that would have been less than 5% of the population there.
You also seem to not realize there were 20 other nations from the UN that participated in that war.

The figures will probably always vary wildly depending on which side you're listening to.
Here's what Wiki says:

"Total civilians killed/wounded: 2.5 million (est.)[9]
South Korea: 990,968
373,599 killed[9]
229,625 wounded[9]
387,744 abducted/missing[9]
North Korea: 1,550,000 (est.)"

Korean War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Other accounts place the population of North Korea at 9 million when the war began with about six million survivors in 1953. Whatever the actual numbers, hundreds of thousands of North Korean civilians died primarily from US air power, and they haven't forgotten or forgiven.

once again, you stated possibly 20% of their population. You are wrong. Very wrong. Not even your erroneous figures you just posted support that.
And most figures agree with total for all sides deaths totalled around 1.2 million.

If the total population of North Korea was nine million when the war began and six million when it ended, that would be closer to one in three Koreans who died resisting a foreign invasion/occupation. I also can't help notice you're conflating US military deaths with Korean civilian fatalities.

 

[Katzndogz]

obama should talk to Kim. He could also bow. Get on his knees. Kim should then give him a boot to the teeth.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

With the war in Afghanistan winding down the defense industry needs another threat to justify the massive military spending. Defense contractors are licking their chops hoping the fat little Korean blunders N korea into War.

It's more-likely the defense-contractors are thinking most Americans are as History-challenged as the average Teabagger.​

October 10, 2006

Bush's Tough-Talkin' Korean Bungle​

"Months before 9/11 and the “global war on terror” – and two years before the Iraq War – George W. Bush tested out his tough-talkin’ diplomacy on communist North Korea. Bush combined harsh rhetoric and intimidating tactics to demonstrate to Pyongyang that there was a swaggering new sheriff in town.

In his first weeks in office, Bush cast aside the Clinton administration’s delicate negotiations that had hemmed in North Korea’s nuclear ambitions. The new President then brushed aside worries of Secretary of State Colin Powell and South Korean President Kim Dae Jung about dangerous consequences from a confrontation.

At a March 2001 summit, Bush rejected Kim Dae Jung’s détente strategy for dealing with North Korea, a humiliation for both Kim, a Nobel Peace Prize winner, and Powell, who wanted to continue pursuing the negotiation track. Instead, Bush cut off nuclear talks with North Korea and stepped up spending on a “Star Wars” missile shield.

After the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, Bush got tougher still, vowing to “rid the world of evil” and listing North Korea as part of the “axis of evil.”

More substantively, Bush sent to Congress a “nuclear posture review,” which laid out future U.S. strategy for deploying nuclear weapons. Leaked in 2002, the so-called NPR put North Korea on a list of potential targets for U.S. nuclear weapons.

By putting North Korea on the nuclear target list, Bush reversed President Clinton’s commitment against targeting non-nuclear states with nuclear weapons. Clinton’s idea was that a U.S. promise not to nuke non-nuclear states would reduce their incentives for joining the nuclear club.

But to Bush and his neoconservative advisers, Clinton’s assurance that non-nuclear states wouldn’t be nuked was just another example of Clinton’s appeasement of U.S. adversaries. By contrast, Bush was determined to bring these “evil” states to their knees."