How Liberals Debate

[red states rule]

building and buying defense assets to fight the cold war after it was won was stupid...don't you agree, sparky?

Libs always want to bury the military when they think it is no longer needed. Reagan brought down the Soviets without firing a shot. Libs can never be trusted with the security and defense of the US

 

[CrimsonWhite]

building and buying defense assets to fight the cold war after it was won was stupid...don't you agree, sparky?

A Cold War ends and a hot one begins. Deployments to Somolia and the Balkans. Attacks in '93, '96, '98, and '00. All unaswered until the attack in '01' All these attacks along with major deployments, yet still cuts and plenty of inaction. That is one hell of a foreign policy.

BTW, a cold war isn't fought. That is why it is a COLD war.

 

[Dr Grump]

You forget that it was liberals that damn near let Germany take over the whole of Europe twice.

Really? How's that you figure?

It was liberals that undermined that Vietnam Conflict

You say that like it was a bad thing...

 

[red states rule]

Really? How's that you figure?



You say that like it was a bad thing...

By being appeasers and not wanting to confront evil

Much like they are doing today

 

[CrimsonWhite]

Libs always want to bury the military when they think it is no longer needed. Reagan brought down the Soviets without firing a shot. Libs can never be trusted with the security and defense of the US

And yet, this has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Sit back down and try not to drool on your shirt.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

Really? How's that you figure?

By waiting three years to enter a war in 1917 that should have been over two years before. By appeasing the Nazis to the point that it was damn difficult to beat them.

You say that like it was a bad thing...

It was.

 

[red states rule]

And yet, this has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Sit back down and try not to drool on your shirt.

I did not change the topic. I am just calling the libs on their rewrite of history

 

[CrimsonWhite]

I did not change the topic. I am just calling the libs on their rewrite of history

Whether or not Reagan won the Cold War(he did BTW, I'll give you that) was not pertinate to the discussion.

 

[maineman]

A Cold War ends and a hot one begins. Deployments to Somolia and the Balkans. Attacks in '93, '96, '98, and '00. All unaswered until the attack in '01' All these attacks along with major deployments, yet still cuts and plenty of inaction. That is one hell of a foreign policy.

BTW, a cold war isn't fought. That is why it is a COLD war.

semantics.... my point was: entire military weapons systems were designed and built and purchased en masse specifically to counter the soviet threat..... Los Angeles Class SSN's designed specifically to tail russian boomers.... Nimitz class carriers designed specifically to operate against soviet battle groups. WHen the cold war ended, would you have wanted us to keep buying more of THOSE things, just to keep buyiung stuff, even though we really had no idea as to what the next big threat would be, and even after we may have figured out what that threat was, it would take several budget cycles to plan, design, test prototypes and then BUILD the new weapons systems that would counter those threats, you would have had us just BUY shit for the sake of buyuing it?

And what specific military weapons systems and platforms would you have had us spend billions on to counter the threat posed by car bombs in parking garages?

 

[red states rule]

semantics.... my point was: entire military weapons systems were designed and built and purchased en masse specifically to counter the soviet threat..... Los Angeles Class SSN's designed specifically to tail russian boomers.... Nimitz class carriers designed specifically to operate against soviet battle groups. WHen the cold war ended, would you have wanted us to keep buying more of THOSE things, just to keep buyiung stuff, even though we really had no idea as to what the next big threat would be, and even after we may have figured out what that threat was, it would take several budget cycles to plan, design, test prototypes and then BUILD the new weapons systems that would counter those threats, you would have had us just BUY shit for the sake of buyuing it?

And what specific military weapons systems and platforms would you have had us spend billions on to counter the threat posed by car bombs in parking garages?

As Zell Miller said about John Kerry and libs : John Kerry wants to be the Commander in Chief of the armed forces - forces armed with what? Spit balls?

 

[maineman]

Whether or not Reagan won the Cold War(he did BTW, I'll give you that) was not pertinate to the discussion.

and reagan won the last battle of the cold war.... the war was won by the continued efforts of every president from Truman on.

 

[jillian]

It was.

I'd actually argue that we should have gotten out years earlier, when Nixon first promised to get us out of Vietnam. We'd have have had a lot fewer names on the wall and the result would have been the same.

And it wasn't anyone's fault but the military leaders that they didn't go into Vietnam with overwhelming force. Had they done that, the objections of the people in this country to our presence would have been largely silenced.

 

[red states rule]

A liberals version of history

Jimmy Carter Won the Cold War



"Short-circuiting the long-established principles of patient negotiation leads to war, not peace." - Jimmy Carter

On this 93rd birthday of the Anti-Christ, Gipper-worshipping dittoheads across the blogosphere are squawking like lovesick parrots about how "Reagan won the cold war". But history will reveal the real truth - the man who actually won the cold war was none other than the 39th president of the United States, James Earl Carter.

Carter strongly suspected that the Soviet Union might be a bully. From his grade school years, Carter also knew that the best way to deal with a bully is to make yourself very small and hope they don't notice you. Failing that, offer them your lunch money. Whatever you do, do NOT confront them - it will only make them angrier. Meekly submitting to a wedgie is better than getting a bloody nose. And perhaps in time, the bully will realize you're no threat and let you pal around with him. Carter applied this policy of d�tente to his dealings with the Soviet Union.

The French word for "I'm your bitch", d�tente with the Soviets was the dreamchild of Henry Kissinger and Tricky Dick Nixon. But it was future nobel laureate, Jimmy Carter, who perfected it to an artform. When the Soviets began rattling their nuclear sabres in the 70's, Carter cut national defense in order to make us seem less threatening. When the Soviets appeared unmoved by his overtures of peace, Carter offered them an olive branch in the form of the Panama Canal, Nicaragua, Taiwan, Ethiopia, Korea, Yemen, Angola, Kampuchea, and Afghanistan. He was in the process of handing them all of Eastern Europe when he was cruelly tossed out of office by the Moral Majority.

However, Carter's refusal to confront the USSR set the wheels in motion for its eventual collapse. Lured into a false sense of superiority, the Soviets overextended themselves, spreading their influence across the globe in much the same way the Roman Empire did. If allowed to continue on such a course, the Soviet Union would quietly fade away in just a few hundred years. All Reagan did was speed up the process by forcing the "evil empire" into an arms race.

By standing up to the Soviets and forcing them in to an arms race, Reagan brought the world to the brink of nuclear annihilation. If it weren't for Sting's visionary Russians single soothing the tensions between the two world powers, I would very likely be typing this blog from a fallout shelter today. We owe him, and Jimmy Carter, a deep debt of gratitude.

http://blamebush.typepad.com/blamebush/history_lessons/index.html

 

[CrimsonWhite]

semantics.... my point was: entire military weapons systems were designed and built and purchased en masse specifically to counter the soviet threat..... Los Angeles Class SSN's designed specifically to tail russian boomers.... Nimitz class carriers designed specifically to operate against soviet battle groups. WHen the cold war ended, would you have wanted us to keep buying more of THOSE things, just to keep buyiung stuff, even though we really had no idea as to what the next big threat would be, and even after we may have figured out what that threat was, it would take several budget cycles to plan, design, test prototypes and then BUILD the new weapons systems that would counter those threats, you would have had us just BUY shit for the sake of buyuing it?

And what specific military weapons systems and platforms would you have had us spend billions on to counter the threat posed by car bombs in parking garages?

I didn't say keep buying the old shit. Buy some new shit. I'm just grunt. I don't know waht specific weapon systemswould work. That is for the desk jockeys in R&D. I just know that a reduction in force at a time when, global turmoil was on a rise, then claiming that it was"peacetime, didn't seem like a smart move. Besides, you don't think the loss of those defense jobs had anything to do with the econoy crashing do you?

BTW, nice counter argument. Kudos.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

and reagan won the last battle of the cold war.... the war was won by the continued efforts of every president from Truman on.

True

 

[red states rule]

True

Dispite the continued protests of libs, Pres Reagan defeated the Soviets, and proved the appeasers on the left were wrong

 

[maineman]

I didn't say keep buying the old shit. Buy some new shit. I'm just grunt. I don't know waht specific weapon systemswould work. That is for the desk jockeys in R&D. I just know that a reduction in force at a time when, global turmoil was on a rise, then claiming that it was"peacetime, didn't seem like a smart move. Besides, you don't think the loss of those defense jobs had anything to do with the econoy crashing do you?

BTW, nice counter argument. Kudos.

the cold war ended rather precipitously, if you'll recall. It was Cheney who pressed hard for the peace dividend... and it made sense....


I ask you again...just use common sense.... what sort of billion dollar military spending program would you think would work against car bombs in parking garages? Do you think an extra five infantry brigades would have prevented WTC '93? Or Khobar Towers? Od the African embassy bombings? Or the inflatable raft loaded with garden variety explosives plowing into the side of the USS Cole in a foreign port?

And defense industry jobs? building what? more SSN's? More CVN's? What?

 

[CrimsonWhite]

And it wasn't anyone's fault but the military leaders that they didn't go into Vietnam with overwhelming force. Had they done that, the objections of the people in this country to our presence would have been largely silenced.

Bullshit. A large scale bombing campaign, followed by invasion is exactly what Westmoreland wanted. The politicos in Washington are what held it up. If we had invaded and "slaughtered" the Vietnameze, Jane Fonda would have screamed even louder and my Father would have still been spit on when he returned.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

Dispite the continued protests of libs, Pres Reagan defeated the Soviets, and proved the appeasers on the left were wrong

You are a dumbass.

 

[jillian]

Bullshit. A large scale bombing campaign, followed by invasion is exactly what Westmoreland wanted. The politicos in Washington are what held it up. If we had invaded and "slaughtered" the Vietnameze, Jane Fonda would have screamed even louder and my Father would have still been spit on when he returned.

Perhaps. Though that doesn't comport with anything I've read on the subject. But the fact still remains that if a victory had been presented instead of a continued list of fallen, the objections of the far left would have fallen on deaf ears. It was the fact that there was no victory to offer and never would be that led to increased voices against the war. That, plus the fact that there was a draft and, unlike in WWII, there was no noble cause to fight for. The military did its job, but, was ill used, IMO, of course.

Good to see you OTF.