How long will progressives get away with pretending to care about the poor?

[tjvh]

I've been looking for that data myself. I don't see any correspondence between unemployment and minimum wage increases since 1950. I found it interesting however that every time we've had a balanced budget, we've slid into a recession (not counting the Clinton budget - but that was held up by the dot com and housing bubbles).

Could someone please point out anywhere in this thread where I argued that minimum wage hikes increase overall unemployment?

Once you realize that you are talking about forests and I am talking about trees we might be able to hold an intelligent conversation. If you keep looking at the forest though, we will never get there.

So are you saying the more people working for the least amount of money is a good thing? We should probably cut food stamps too. Hungry people work harder.

Remember when State Rep. Cynthia Davis (R-MO) on child hunger said, "Hunger can be a positive motivator."?

Certainly you can train dogs and cats with a judicious use of food. Why not children?

Why does everything have to be all, or nothing with you flakes? How about cutting handouts to people who are capable of working, and choose not to?

 

[Mr Natural]

Fact is....it is the Republicans who care about the poor

They will see all that wealth come trickling down to them any time now. They just have to be patient

And that's the problem! All this wealth from above comes raining down on us worker bees and fills our pockets with an abundance of cash which we spend like drunken sailors and drive up demand for goods and services along with the prices for them.

 

[bendog]

Could someone please point out anywhere in this thread where I argued that minimum wage hikes increase overall unemployment?

Once you realize that you are talking about forests and I am talking about trees we might be able to hold an intelligent conversation. If you keep looking at the forest though, we will never get there.

So are you saying the more people working for the least amount of money is a good thing? We should probably cut food stamps too. Hungry people work harder.

Remember when State Rep. Cynthia Davis (R-MO) on child hunger said, "Hunger can be a positive motivator."?

Certainly you can train dogs and cats with a judicious use of food. Why not children?

Why does everything have to be all, or nothing with you flakes? How about cutting handouts to people who are capable of working, and choose not to?

Perhaps ironic. The thread's premise is the min wage actually hurts the working poor, though I don't think there's really mainstream econ support for that, and certainly Mankiw isn't even trying that robe on. But the min wage acts to "artificially" set a limit on how low a wage can be. So, if the wage conveys more econ benefit than welfare, employment is encouraged. And that was a component of welfare reform. Limit benefits in an econ where gainful employment can be found, and people who haven't been educated to work will work, and learn that it conveys not only money but self-worth.

 

[NYcarbineer]

[quo
Could someone please point out anywhere in this thread where I argued that minimum wage hikes increase overall unemployment?

.

In your last post:

My position is that increases in the minimum wage decrease job opportunities for low skilled workers

 

[peach174]

Where do you think that money comes from when minimum wage is hiked up?
Not from the employer.
It comes from the people who buy the products and goods.
Everything is too expensive now, let alone if the minimum wage becomes higher.
This is why it never works for the poor.
They get higher hourly wages but the things that we all buy becomes more expensive, thus keeping them still at poverty levels.

 

[oldernwiser]

Could someone please point out anywhere in this thread where I argued that minimum wage hikes increase overall unemployment?

Once you realize that you are talking about forests and I am talking about trees we might be able to hold an intelligent conversation. If you keep looking at the forest though, we will never get there.

Bags, your slipping. From your opening statement:

If the price of unskilled labor rises, why wouldn’t employers buy less? No employer could long pay a worker more than the value he produced for the firm. That’s why economic theory and empirical observation tell us that an enforced minimum wage destroys jobs, degrades the quality of other jobs, and prevents new jobs from being created.

Are yo aware that altering quotes to make it look like someone said something they did not is a violation of board rules?

Bags, I would refer you back to your opening statement and supporting argument. This was not modified in any way - other than to call attention to the statement you seem to be backing away from.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Where do you think that money comes from when minimum wage is hiked up?
Not from the employer.
It comes from the people who buy the products and goods.
Everything is too expensive now, let alone if the minimum wage becomes higher.
This is why it never works for the poor.
They get higher hourly wages but the things that we all buy becomes more expensive, thus keeping them still at poverty levels.

The minimum wage has been falling for 40+ years.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Take the OP title and change it to "Politicians" and you have a point. Though I have to say, part of the reason Progressives get away with appearing to care about the poor is because Conservatives have been fairly actively hostile to the poor.

 

[peach174]

The minimum wage was raised in 1997,2007,2008 and 2009.
Like I said before, all it does is raise the prices of goods and services. It does not help the poor rise out of poverty.

 

[rightwinger]

The minimum wage was raised in 1997,2007,2008 and 2009.
Like I said before, all it does is raise the prices of goods and services. It does not help the poor rise out of poverty.

You have inflation numbers for those years?

I don't recall it being much if anything

 

[zeke]

Hell with logic like I read on here, if the "minimum wage" goes to nothing, all the poor will be prosperous and un poor.

Just think of all the price cuts companies will be giving when the minimum wage no longer exists. LMAO.

Life would be so good if only there was no minimum wage.

Does that about cover it?

And while we are fixing things. I think we need to get rid of those income numbers that designate just what a "poverty" level is. 12 thousand for a single person is pretty damn good income. And 23k for a family of four. Now what family of four can't live the good life on income like that?

No, eliminate the minimum wage and eliminate the poverty level income designation and there won't be any more poor people in the USA.

The War on Poverty has been won. But the poor people got their asses kicked.

Oh well, shouldn't been born poor. Right rethugs? No one to blame but the poor person.

 

[Agit8r]

Most of us older folks remember when ushers would guide us to seats in theaters, or how gas stations attendants would wash windows and check under the hood. Most people don't think about why we don't have things like that anymore, even though everyone complains about how customer service is no longer a priority with companies we do business with. If anyone actually thinks about it, they will understand why this is happening, but most people won't get it even after it is explained to them.

Crocodile tears are flowing again for low-income people. In his State of the Union address, President Obama proposed raising the minimum wage from $7.25 to $9 an hour. A debate is shaping up between those who support the proposal and those who favor keeping the wage where it is today. But there are good grounds—for the sake of the poor—to repeal the minimum wage altogether.
Wages are not set by fiat, even in the U.S. economy, which is severely distorted by government privileges. Wages, rather, are determined by supply and demand. If the price of unskilled labor rises, why wouldn’t employers buy less? No employer could long pay a worker more than the value he produced for the firm. That’s why economic theory and empirical observation tell us that an enforced minimum wage destroys jobs, degrades the quality of other jobs, and prevents new jobs from being created.
The victims are the most vulnerable people in society: the unskilled. For the most part, these are young people (many from the middle class) without work experience. Few people over 24 make the minimum wage, and those who do usually move up before long. Young people desperately need that first job to learn skills and work habits, and of course income, but “progressive” politicians, whether they know it or not, favor policies that destroy entry-level jobs. Remember, the minimum-wage law doesn’t create employment; it forbids jobs that pay too little.
Advocates of the minimum wage ought to explain why they believe competition among employers hasn’t already bid up the wages of unskilled workers to reflect their productivity. How can anyone know that a $9 minimum won’t throw people out of work or make low-skilled jobs more onerous? No one can know this because only the market process can generate and disclose such information. Nevertheless, “progressives” are willing to gamble with the lives of people who are vulnerable enough as it is.

The Minimum Wage Harms the Most Vulnerable - Reason.com

Logical fallacy. Companies can get labor at far bellow minimum wage. It's called workfare.

 

[oldernwiser]

Could someone please point out anywhere in this thread where I argued that minimum wage hikes increase overall unemployment?

Once you realize that you are talking about forests and I am talking about trees we might be able to hold an intelligent conversation. If you keep looking at the forest though, we will never get there.

So are you saying the more people working for the least amount of money is a good thing? We should probably cut food stamps too. Hungry people work harder.

Remember when State Rep. Cynthia Davis (R-MO) on child hunger said, "Hunger can be a positive motivator."?

Certainly you can train dogs and cats with a judicious use of food. Why not children?

Why does everything have to be all, or nothing with you flakes? How about cutting handouts to people who are capable of working, and choose not to?

I love this line of reasoning... can you show data that discriminates between those who want to work and those who don't?

If you've ever been on the public dole, you already know that it isn't as rosy as Mitt and Paul would have had us all believe. Anyone who has ever worked for more than a poverty wage understands that it's better to have a job than not.

Still - this line of reasoning is sound. How about instead of handing out checks that maintain a poverty level income and de-incentivizes people from ever looking for anything more, we set up a national scholarship and help these folks train for other jobs where they will have the ability to rise above poverty? Maybe even setting a time limit for the aid money so that it coincides with their time in school...

I agree that there may be some who find it more convenient to sit at home, collect entitlements and bemoan the system (a lot like working Republicans), but no one has ever offered to do anything more than throw money at them.

 

[oldernwiser]

Most of us older folks remember when ushers would guide us to seats in theaters, or how gas stations attendants would wash windows and check under the hood. Most people don't think about why we don't have things like that anymore, even though everyone complains about how customer service is no longer a priority with companies we do business with. If anyone actually thinks about it, they will understand why this is happening, but most people won't get it even after it is explained to them.

Crocodile tears are flowing again for low-income people. In his State of the Union address, President Obama proposed raising the minimum wage from $7.25 to $9 an hour. A debate is shaping up between those who support the proposal and those who favor keeping the wage where it is today. But there are good grounds—for the sake of the poor—to repeal the minimum wage altogether.
Wages are not set by fiat, even in the U.S. economy, which is severely distorted by government privileges. Wages, rather, are determined by supply and demand. If the price of unskilled labor rises, why wouldn’t employers buy less? No employer could long pay a worker more than the value he produced for the firm. That’s why economic theory and empirical observation tell us that an enforced minimum wage destroys jobs, degrades the quality of other jobs, and prevents new jobs from being created.
The victims are the most vulnerable people in society: the unskilled. For the most part, these are young people (many from the middle class) without work experience. Few people over 24 make the minimum wage, and those who do usually move up before long. Young people desperately need that first job to learn skills and work habits, and of course income, but “progressive” politicians, whether they know it or not, favor policies that destroy entry-level jobs. Remember, the minimum-wage law doesn’t create employment; it forbids jobs that pay too little.
Advocates of the minimum wage ought to explain why they believe competition among employers hasn’t already bid up the wages of unskilled workers to reflect their productivity. How can anyone know that a $9 minimum won’t throw people out of work or make low-skilled jobs more onerous? No one can know this because only the market process can generate and disclose such information. Nevertheless, “progressives” are willing to gamble with the lives of people who are vulnerable enough as it is.

The Minimum Wage Harms the Most Vulnerable - Reason.com

Logical fallacy. Companies can get labor at far bellow minimum wage. It's called workfare.

I agree with you there. And, there's another point which makes this another non-issue. In the last 30 years, manufacturing companies have been working very hard at replacing standard-issue humans with automation. We're already at the point where most consumer items only saw human hands when they put it in the box to be shipped - and even then...

What then remains are the few engineering/design jobs requiring huge amounts of education, and lots of people waiting to put in their 15 hours at their local 7/11 so that maybe they can buy meat for dinner one day this week.