How Many Christians Believe that Heaven is REALLY Real?

[emilynghiem]

Saw a good movie last night named 'Heaven is Real' and one of the things I had forgotten but it reminded me of was the prevalence of people in main stream Protestantism that do not believe in a literal Heaven.

So I thought I would put the question out there for this board; How many of you believe that Heave is REALLY Real?

I believe Heaven and Hell are relative to different people's world view,
as are God and Jesus. These are still Universal, but relative to people's perspectives.

Collectively, if you combine all the perceptions and experiences of
Heaven, then that is heaven on earth, which is a microcosm or reflection of heaven beyond our world.

Each person may experience it and express it differently, but collectively
it becomes what is symbolized in the Bible.

In general terms whatever brings spiritual peace beyond measure and without condition
is heaven.

And whatever brings suffering beyond what humans can bear collectively is hell.

war is one manifestation of hell.
the prison system is hell to many people.
drug addictions or abuses that drive people to suicide.

Heaven is the opposite end of the spectrum to all that, if you can imagine that collectively.
that is the most we can know of "heaven on earth" which is a reflection of higher levels and spiritual realms beyond this world. same with hell.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

I would think that, for those who believe in a heaven, or an afterlife as it were, the fear of death would be greatly diminished. Especially for those who are certain...

Naw ... bruce is right. On all points.

Fear is what drives all religion. Fear that is so strong, so overpowering that believers are able to put aside all intelligence and logic to believe in magic sky fairies, an invisible heaven and lots of different magical powers given to everyday objects and substances.

Yeah, which is why Christianity teaches about the transcending power of God's Love, His forgiveness and why Christianity has long emphasized forgiveness and repentance.

You are a jack ass imbecile.

Your second line proves you don't believe in the first line.

WHY are so many (MOST?) christians so vile and ugly and foul mouthed? WHY do their words exude such compete and total hatred for the very god they say they worship?

I am so glad that I don't spend my days so utterly eaten up by the hate and fear you christians value and nurture so much. Its just sad to read what you people say and believe.

 

[emilynghiem]

Jim, I have never heard of a protestant that didn't believe heaven was real or that the bible wasn't to be taken literally. What denomination is that?

Basically the Episcopalians, Congregationalists, Unitarians and any of the sectarian splinters off from the Anglican Church.

Are you saying that "Episcopalians, Congregationalists, Unitarians and any of the sectarian splinters off from the Anglican Church" DO or DO NOT believe there is an actual, physical place that IS heaven?

Hi Luddly
I think the generalization by denomination can only go so far
(one denomination I have found that is cohesive enough to "label as a group" is the Jehovah's Witnesses who believe there will be a Paradise on Earth that is heaven)

I find most people have their own unique understanding.

I still have trouble understanding how anyone can just follow one group to the letter
because everyone I know is so different! Nobody's beliefs are identical.

The interpretation I find I find that covers all these different "representations" of heaven:
comes from the concept of the "Kingdom of God" being within us or among us.

The scripture cited can and has been interpreted both ways as "within" or "among"
and I find both apply anyway. Even the Buddhist monk Thich Nhat Hanh cited
this passage to explain how we do not need to "physically die" to reach heavenly peace,
but can achieve it here on earth by inner peace, then engaging in peaceful relations with others.

Where we are at peace within ourselves, and/or with others,
that is where "God's will" is done "on earth as it is in heaven"

So that is heaven on earth, that is peace regardless of conditions we are in.

I find this "peace" to be the common factor in all other interpretations of heaven,
whether spiritual peace above and beyond, world peace around us, or inner peace within us.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Most believers are highly invested in the idea of heaven as their faith is rooted in their fear of death and the unknown.
So many will cite their joy of having eternal life at the center of their belief. You often see it repeated on these threads, even in the midst of a post riddled with profanity and unchecked hatred of their challengers. The disconnect with the Message with the exception of believing they get to live forever is shocking, but it illuminates the base reason for their faith.
Fear.

If that was your experience from your former church, Bruce, I can understand why you are no longer in the ministry. It must have been very exhausting to serve God out of fear.

I have never served him out of fear so I do not know what that is like. I would strongly recommend that anyone who feels like they are being controlled by fear to get out from under it. Church, work place, home, whatever....... control by fear or intimidation is a wicked thing..it has absolutely zero to do with true christianity.

Bruce sounds like a troll, so don't be shocked if he is a waste of time.

Bruce isn't a waste of time to me. Bruce is the very person Christ died for. I cannot forget that as a believer. If I've said anything to offend Bruce I apologise - I'm not for offending anyone and that includes Bruce. Sometimes we say things we do not realize is an offense to other people. Just in case that happened, my apologies to you, Bruce. - Jeri

 

[emilynghiem]

Your second line proves you don't believe in the first line.

WHY are so many (MOST?) christians so vile and ugly and foul mouthed? WHY do their words exude such compete and total hatred for the very god they say they worship?

I am so glad that I don't spend my days so utterly eaten up by the hate and fear you christians value and nurture so much. Its just sad to read what you people say and believe.

Dear Luddly: Christians need to learn forgiveness like any other humans on this earth.
We learn by experience, by trial and error, and yes, sadly by our own hypocrisy.
Contradicting ourselves, sticking our feet in our mouths (or our heads up our behinds)
until we learn how to extricate ourselves from embarrassing situations.

We are learning to forgive ourselves and each other at the same time.
And this often takes a neighbor pointing out to us, like a mirror,
which body parts are not in their proper places.

If we don't fix our own mistakes, this becomes someone else's problem,
and they will not hesitate to let us know!

This is how we learn: Christians who don't follow their own teachings.
Politicians who don't follow their own laws. Bunch of hypocrites,
pots and kettles calling each other black.

All people are on this learning curve and going through "group therapy"
Christians are no exception; they are called to correct themselves and each other
by invoking their laws, similar to how we try to correct government by
invoking those laws.

We are all in this together. Thanks for caring enough to participate
and contribute, and I hope it gets easier when you see we
are actually not enemies but all working on the same problems from different angles.

Our fear, division, distrust and unforgiveness of each other are our worst enemies.

Until we learn to work in teams, despite our conflicting differences, there is still too much infighting
and blaming each other's groups to work together more effectively to solve the problems we are so upset about.
All that is part of the learning curve, too, Luddly!

It will get easier when we decide to help each other instead of fight each other.
If we are still in the venting and projecting stage, we aren't ready yet, clearly.

If so, Carry on. Just remember if we don't like Christians venting and blaming others,
does it do any good to act the same way we can't stand either?

How can we help each other to be better examples of what we'd rather see going on?

 

[emilynghiem]

Bruce sounds like a troll, so don't be shocked if he is a waste of time.

Bruce isn't a waste of time to me. Bruce is the very person Christ died for. I cannot forget that as a believer. If I've said anything to offend Bruce I apologise - I'm not for offending anyone and that includes Bruce. Sometimes we say things we do not realize is an offense to other people. Just in case that happened, my apologies to you, Bruce. - Jeri

I thought Bruce brought up legit points and questions.
So I responded to those anyway.

Jesus died for all of us, for all humanity, otherwise caught in a vicious cycle of retribution that would never end.

I don't see me or Bruce different, just because we are on different paths or places/stages in time.

Whatever changes I have to go through to be more mature in spirit or understanding,
I'm sure Bruce is here to go through his changes, too.

These changes are happening in tandem.

If his posts and questions or retorts can help me to reshape how I see or say things,
to try to share with someone from that viewpoint,
perhaps I can in turn help Bruce to see things in a way that makes more sense.

If not, maybe other people benefit from the Q&A going back and forth.
So maybe even God can make good use of trolling exchanges to help people anyway.

All things can be used for good, if we keep with God's intent will and purposes. Why not make the most of our conversations, regardless what someone's original intent may be?

Can't God make good of anything, and use the opportunity to share positive insights anyway? Can't we still use this to learn from each other and gain greater understanding?

 

[guno]

Most believers are highly invested in the idea of heaven as their faith is rooted in their fear of death and the unknown.
So many will cite their joy of having eternal life at the center of their belief. You often see it repeated on these threads, even in the midst of a post riddled with profanity and unchecked hatred of their challengers. The disconnect with the Message with the exception of believing they get to live forever is shocking, but it illuminates the base reason for their faith.
Fear.

I would think that, for those who believe in a heaven, or an afterlife as it were, the fear of death would be greatly diminished. Especially for those who are certain...

Naw ... bruce is right. On all points.

Fear is what drives all religion. Fear that is so strong, so overpowering that believers are able to put aside all intelligence and logic to believe in magic sky fairies, an invisible heaven and lots of different magical powers given to everyday objects and substances.

That fear is so powerful, they're willing to forgive and excuse the worst from their gods.

**shrug**

Whatever gets them through those long dark nights.

"Christianity has such a contemptible opinion of human nature that it does not believe a man can tell the truth unless frightened by a belief in God. No lower opinion of the human race has ever been expressed."

 

[Truthseeker420]

I would love to believe that I am forgiven for all my wrongs and that it was not my fault but the devil made me do it...and that if I just give all my worldly possessions to the rich I will live out eternity in heaven. But I don't ! I guess I'm more agnostic.

But what do I know... I still love Christmas and Easter.

 

[edthecynic]

Saw a good movie last night named 'Heaven is Real' and one of the things I had forgotten but it reminded me of was the prevalence of people in main stream Protestantism that do not believe in a literal Heaven.

So I thought I would put the question out there for this board; How many of you believe that Heave is REALLY Real?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqqN0_WCS28]Traffic - Heaven Is In Your Mind 1967 - YouTube[/ame]

 

[emilynghiem]

"Christianity has such a contemptible opinion of human nature that it does not believe a man can tell the truth unless frightened by a belief in God. No lower opinion of the human race has ever been expressed."

Hi Guno: I've run into different takes on this among Christians
A. believing that original human nature reflects an image of God
and the fallen sin or ego came later (and we need forgiveness to restore the original state)
B. focusing on the point that we are all born flawed biased or sinful
and the point is to forgive our faults so humanity can be made whole or new again
C. focusing on the flawed/sinful point and preaching such judgment against sin
it is or sounds unforgiving and loses the whole point of the message of forgiveness

I think you are only focusing on C.

I focus on A, and yes, I do have major problems when Christians
only focus on B (and not on A) or on C and contradict the whole message.

I don't think this is fair to blame all Christianity because of problems with teaching it.

That is like blaming the laws of physics or math because of bad math teachers or students.

The laws or principles are not to blame, but the people messing them up need correction.

Science went for how many centuries before people like Galileo or Einstein
made discoveries and corrections.

We didn't throw out Science because of flawed teachings.
Why this need to throw out Christianity?

By your logic, should we throw out the Constitution for
all the politicians making a mess of those laws, too!

Because of corrupt lawyers and politicians, where VERY FEW
CONSISTENTLY defend the true meaning and spirit of the Constitution,
are we going to reject the good, universal principles it stands for?

Or hold leaders and lawyers responsible for their corruption and abuses of the laws?

 

[BreezeWood]

we are living in Heaven now, staying here is the task.

 

[JimBowie1958]

If that was your experience from your former church, Bruce, I can understand why you are no longer in the ministry. It must have been very exhausting to serve God out of fear.

I have never served him out of fear so I do not know what that is like. I would strongly recommend that anyone who feels like they are being controlled by fear to get out from under it. Church, work place, home, whatever....... control by fear or intimidation is a wicked thing..it has absolutely zero to do with true christianity.

Bruce sounds like a troll, so don't be shocked if he is a waste of time.

Bruce isn't a waste of time to me. Bruce is the very person Christ died for. I cannot forget that as a believer.

Jeri, do you even know if Bruce is his real name?

There is so much fraud, posturing and deception on the internet. just because someone says Fact A about themselves doesn't mean it is true at all, in any shape or form.

My bet is that Bruce is not his real name and that nothing he has said about himself or what he thinks is genuine either.

Most people take a name that is plainly not their real name. Those who do use names that seem real maybe setting you up.

But do what you feel in your heart you gotta do; I am only trying to spare you disappointment.

 

[emilynghiem]

I would love to believe that I am forgiven for all my wrongs and that it was not my fault but the devil made me do it...and that if I just give all my worldly possessions to the rich I will live out eternity in heaven. But I don't ! I guess I'm more agnostic.

But what do I know... I still love Christmas and Easter.

If you look at it logically,
all bad decisions are made because people didn't know a better way or choice at the time,
or weren't emotionally able even if they did know it was a mistake.

I don't know anyone who would make the same mistake again
if they KNEW what they knew AFTERWARD, or could have managed
their emotional state better that was not so clear at the time.

so if you can see that it is human nature to learn in retrospect, where we are not
"perfectly" psychic or machines who can pick the right answer regardless of our emotions,
does that help you understand forgiving, so things can be corrected in the future?

Would you hold a grudge against a kid in school who makes multiple mistakes,
or sometimes the same ones over and over, until learning how to get it right?

If not, why would you hold something against yourself or anyone else who is learning?

 

[Spoonman]

I believe heaven is real. I definitely believe god is real.

 

[HUGGY]

There seems to be an inexhaustable amount of "wiggle room" when it comes to attempting to pin down what should be a straight forward request for an answer to the question "is heaven real?".

Upon facing death in general or someone's death in particular how many times have we heard the phrase "he/she is in a better place now"?

THAT is what we are talking about. We are not talking about the "heaven" that is the collective "conscienseness". We are asking if the dead person has some "presense, soul, personality or other representation of what was the living breathing human being having left the flesh and appeared in some other definable space and or time.

LSL has stated that this "place" is in some other dimension. So THAT so far has been the most clear response from a believer.

SO.. the question at least to LSL has been answered. He said it is in another dimension.

Those believers that do not subscrie to a heaven of "another dimension" are not really believers in a god seperate from human conscienceness.

I can understand the anger from people like LSL aimed at people like me that make fun of sky fairies and the whole Jesus son of god, heaven narrative.

The whole "god" story from a logical perspective is nonsense. The concept of "heaven" is nonsense.

Labeling those that state the "real" existance of god, santa claus, tooth fairy, easter bunny and and any number of imaginary entities as trolls begs what would you have us think?

Surely you that "hate" the non believers must ridicule SOME forms of imaginary beings and for the purpose of this discussion "places"..

Is there NO conversation..no assemblige of words that is "crazy"? If not then what are those people doing in the mental institutions? Are they, to some extent, not placed there based on what they believe to be real that obviously cannot be real?

 

[Pennywise]

I am a Mulder Agnostic: I want to believe. But I don't. I don't know what exists beyond terra firma, but I believe something does. I have seen too many unexplained things to be so arrogant as to think there is no way a higher power exists.

I really don't understand the vile haters who are not content to simply believe what they do (in nothing) but feel the need to ridicule people of faith. Methinks there is a naked fear in these childish cretins that perhaps they are just not in touch with the Spirit of Life. Or maybe they were raped as children.

 

[thebrucebeat]

Bruce sounds like a troll, so don't be shocked if he is a waste of time.

Bruce isn't a waste of time to me. Bruce is the very person Christ died for. I cannot forget that as a believer.

Jeri, do you even know if Bruce is his real name?

There is so much fraud, posturing and deception on the internet. just because someone says Fact A about themselves doesn't mean it is true at all, in any shape or form.

My bet is that Bruce is not his real name and that nothing he has said about himself or what he thinks is genuine either.

Most people take a name that is plainly not their real name. Those who do use names that seem real maybe setting you up.

But do what you feel in your heart you gotta do; I am only trying to spare you disappointment.

What would make you make an unfounded accusation like this? What kind of faith leads you to bear false witness?
Certainly not Christianity.
That is my real name.
These are my genuine thoughts.
You are an ugly soul, and I have pity for you.

 

[amrchaos]

I have another question.

Is free will taken away once you die? If Christians are correct that we have free to obey God or not, then I think free will is lost upon death of the physical body.

Think about it. If your place in Heaven/Hell is already decided, it would not make sense for any one to continue making decisions for themselves. They could lose their place in Heaven, or become righteous in Hell and then the whole purpose for the afterlife would become messed up!!

Just a thought, but I think it has some implications of what to expect if there is an afterlife.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Bruce isn't a waste of time to me. Bruce is the very person Christ died for. I cannot forget that as a believer.

Jeri, do you even know if Bruce is his real name?

There is so much fraud, posturing and deception on the internet. just because someone says Fact A about themselves doesn't mean it is true at all, in any shape or form.

My bet is that Bruce is not his real name and that nothing he has said about himself or what he thinks is genuine either.

Most people take a name that is plainly not their real name. Those who do use names that seem real maybe setting you up.

But do what you feel in your heart you gotta do; I am only trying to spare you disappointment.

What would make you make an unfounded accusation like this? What kind of faith leads you to bear false witness?
Certainly not Christianity.
That is my real name.
These are my genuine thoughts.
You are an ugly soul, and I have pity for you.

One's real name is none of his business.

Never ever EVER trust anyone on the internet who says they want your real name. You can bet they have only one thing in mind and that is to cause you harm. Considering the language and threatening, nasty attitude "Jim Bowie" exhibits, he's up to no goo. No matter how he goads you, if I were you, I would not give him any more info.

 

[thebrucebeat]

I would think that, for those who believe in a heaven, or an afterlife as it were, the fear of death would be greatly diminished. Especially for those who are certain...

Naw ... bruce is right. On all points.

Fear is what drives all religion. Fear that is so strong, so overpowering that believers are able to put aside all intelligence and logic to believe in magic sky fairies, an invisible heaven and lots of different magical powers given to everyday objects and substances.

Yeah, which is why Christianity teaches about the transcending power of God's Love, His forgiveness and why Christianity has long emphasized forgiveness and repentance.

You are a jack ass imbecile.

Compare the two bolded parts above.
Do they seem related or opposed to each other?
You are another Christian who has turned his back on the Fruits of the Spirit.
Peace, love, joy, patience, goodness, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.
The signs of the indwelt believer, according to Paul.
But for you...
a punchline.