how much warming from adding carbon dioxide to the atmosphere is what we

[westwall]

Thanks West. I appreciate your correcting our friend Saigon who does seem to have a selective reading comprehension problem.

I have been beating the drum for years and years now that we demand that government, and the scientific community it uses for its own purposes, be honest about it. And we are seeing increasing evidence that they are not honest about showing us all sides of the issue.

If indeed the Earth is still in a warming cycle, and even if human activity is having an affect on that, it is obvious that the current silly authoritarian and coercive measures to deal with it are not working. It makes a whole lot more sense to me to focus most of our research into helping people adapt to climate change rather than try to change our climate.

Let's use government and science to help people, not enslave them or force them to hand over their liberties to powers that so far have not shown me that they have my best interests at heart.

It was my duty to challenge an outright lie, posted by a known liar. I despise people like saggy who intentionally mischaracterize peoples positions on subjects. You, especially you, have been one of the most balanced posters on this issue and like me I KNOW you are in favor of doing GOOD research that will benefit mankind in the event of whatever happens.

saggy and his ilk are partisan in the extreme and they have a proven record of massive environmental damage in the pursuance of their political goals...which in the long run have nothing to do with the environment.

 

[PMZ]

Thanks West. I appreciate your correcting our friend Saigon who does seem to have a selective reading comprehension problem.

I have been beating the drum for years and years now that we demand that government, and the scientific community it uses for its own purposes, be honest about it. And we are seeing increasing evidence that they are not honest about showing us all sides of the issue.

If indeed the Earth is still in a warming cycle, and even if human activity is having an affect on that, it is obvious that the current silly authoritarian and coercive measures to deal with it are not working. It makes a whole lot more sense to me to focus most of our research into helping people adapt to climate change rather than try to change our climate.

Let's use government and science to help people, not enslave them or force them to hand over their liberties to powers that so far have not shown me that they have my best interests at heart.

What you wish for is, in fact, underway and making progress. You choose to remain a decade or so behind. That's your choice.

 

[westwall]

It was my duty to challenge an outright lie, posted by a known liar. I despise people like saggy who intentionally mischaracterize peoples positions on subjects. You, especially you, have been one of the most balanced posters on this issue and like me I KNOW you are in favor of doing GOOD research that will benefit mankind in the event of whatever happens.

saggy and his ilk are partisan in the extreme and they have a proven record of massive environmental damage in the pursuance of their political goals...which in the long run have nothing to do with the environment.

 

[PMZ]

Thanks West. I appreciate your correcting our friend Saigon who does seem to have a selective reading comprehension problem.

I have been beating the drum for years and years now that we demand that government, and the scientific community it uses for its own purposes, be honest about it. And we are seeing increasing evidence that they are not honest about showing us all sides of the issue.

If indeed the Earth is still in a warming cycle, and even if human activity is having an affect on that, it is obvious that the current silly authoritarian and coercive measures to deal with it are not working. It makes a whole lot more sense to me to focus most of our research into helping people adapt to climate change rather than try to change our climate.

Let's use government and science to help people, not enslave them or force them to hand over their liberties to powers that so far have not shown me that they have my best interests at heart.

It was my duty to challenge an outright lie, posted by a known liar. I despise people like saggy who intentionally mischaracterize peoples positions on subjects. You, especially you, have been one of the most balanced posters on this issue and like me I KNOW you are in favor of doing GOOD research that will benefit mankind in the event of whatever happens.

saggy and his ilk are partisan in the extreme and they have a proven record of massive environmental damage in the pursuance of their political goals...which in the long run have nothing to do with the environment.

Westwall and his ilk are partisan in the extreme and they have a proven record of massive environmental damage in the pursuance of their political goals...which in the long run have nothing to do with the environment, and everything to do with government and wealth distribution.

 

[Foxfyre]

Good lord. The speculation may be right and we have assigned the wrong sock. He's Jake.

 

[PMZ]

Why is it that deniers would rather discuss socks than physics? Problem obfuscation rather than progress? The cost of doing something and not the cost of doing nothing?

Strange bunch!

 

[mamooth]

It was my duty to challenge an outright lie, posted by a known liar.

Which is to say, someone disagreed with Westwall, hence Westwall instantly declared the person was a liar. Like he does every time someone disagrees with him. In the Westwall cult world, it is not possible to have an honest disagreement. Anyone who disagrees with his cult in any way has to be a liar, by definition, because his cult is perfect and can never be mistaken in any way.

 

[Foxfyre]

I have been known to disagree with Westwall here and there on various subjects. But I have not caught him in a single lie. In addition he is careful enough to develop his arguments and support his opinions and concepts so that I don't believe I have ever caught him contradicting himself. Nor have I reason to believe he is lying about what he believes, what he knows, what he defends.

Sorry, but I cannot say the same re Saigon, Mammoth, or PMZ re any of these things. You all may or may not be related, but you all use the same techniques of smoke and mirrors to pretend you understand concepts that you are unable to explain when pushed to do so, you all use the same code words, the same method of insulting people, and you all dodge uncomfortable concepts (for you) in exactly the same way. It is quite remarkable actually.

 

[PMZ]

I have been known to disagree with Westwall here and there on various subjects. But I have not caught him in a single lie. In addition he is careful enough to develop his arguments and support his opinions and concepts so that I don't believe I have ever caught him contradicting himself. Nor have I reason to believe he is lying about what he believes, what he knows, what he defends.

Sorry, but I cannot say the same re Saigon, Mammoth, or PMZ re any of these things. You all may or may not be related, but you all use the same techniques of smoke and mirrors to pretend you understand concepts that you are unable to explain when pushed to do so, you all use the same code words, the same method of insulting people, and you all dodge uncomfortable concepts (for you) in exactly the same way. It is quite remarkable actually.

Sorry. There is a limited amount of truth. But there is an infinite variety of fiction. Telling of fictional things allows infinite stories.

So, the fact that those committed to truth all say the same things doesn't mean that we are the same people. We're many people saying the one truth.

What you, for some reason, fail to consider is that deniers offer no evidence, no proof, no coherent theories, no science. Merely questions. Denial is a mindset, and has nothing to do with reality.

You all are saying what you wish was true, and you have come to believe that you are entitled to what you want.

Of course at this time all of this has no further point. The world has moved on. If you'd like to believe that we've moved on as though we were right, have at it. You have no evidence for your position and we have loads.

Time to act and we are. We have been for quite a while. You can continue to whine from the sidelines if you'd like.

 

[SSDD]

SSDD -

Agriculture is ALREADY being impacted around the world - and largely negatively. I've posted stories here in the past about Australian wine producers ploughing their grapes under because the increased frequency of droughts and the subsequent cost of water made the crop unsustainable.

Drought is an intergal part of australia's climate. It is nothing new and certainly nothing that can be blamed on global warming. Try again.

Spain is one of Europe's major agricultural suppliers - as well as being one of the countries where climate change is most evident. Tomato and grape crops are under threat there.

Under threat of what? Drought? Flood? AGW inspired locusts? Stop predicting vague doom and gloom and get specific. What specific threat can you name and point to a human fingerprint?

Actually, that was proven around 10 years ago. The latest IIPC report suggests storm frequency is not linked to climate change, but storm intensity is. And the rest of the world knew ten years ago that wet countries can expect wetter weather; drier countries will experience more drought.

You believe because a thing is printed in an IPCC document it has been proven? You are working from model output, not observation. The observation is that neither droughts nor floods are happening with any more frequency today and are generally happening less.

Reconstructed cool- and warm-season precipitation over the tribal lands of northeastern Arizona - Springer
Possible linkages of late-Holocene drought in the North American midcontinent to Pacific Decadal Oscillation and solar activity - Tian - 2006 - Geophysical Research Letters - Wiley Online Library

A 5200-year record of freshwater availability for regions in western North America fed by high-elevation runoff - Wolfe - 2011 - Geophysical Research Letters - Wiley Online Library
Reconstructed drought variability in southeastern Sweden since the 1650s - Seftigen - 2012 - International Journal of Climatology - Wiley Online Library
An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

CP - Abstract - Orbital changes, variation in solar activity and increased anthropogenic activities: controls on the Holocene flood frequency in the Lake Ledro area, Northern Italy
A 450 year record of spring-summer flood layers in annually laminated sediments from Lake Ammersee (southern Germany) - Czymzik - 2010 - Water Resources Research - Wiley Online Library
Extraordinary hydro-climatic events during the period AD 200?300 recorded by slackwater deposits in the upper Hanjiang River valley, China
Holocene Floods of China's Jinghe River

And I could continue with published paper after paper stating that the climate is more extreme during cooler periods than the present.

As for the US - I'm AMAZED you need to ask how this "will" effect your world. Honestly...do you not have access to a news service?

Again with the vagaries. I have access to the news and again, I ask you to describe what my little corner of the world will look like. How will my winters be different? How will my summers be different? How will my growing season be effected. What crops can no longer be planted here? What new crops might be planted here. What will the average summertime temperature be? What will the average wintertime temperature be? How might my summertime and winter time energy use change?

Be specific. Vague threats are meaningless. Lets get down to what the actual changes will be.

The 2012-2013 North American Drought, an expansion of the 2010–2012 Southern United States drought, orignated in the midst of a record breaking heat wave. Low snowfall amounts in winter, coupled with the intense summer heat from La Nina, caused drought-like conditions to migrate northward from the southern United States, wreaking havoc on crops and water supply.[1] The drought has inflicted, and is expected to continue to inflict, catastrophic economic ramifications for the affected states. It has exceeded, in most measures, the 1988-1989 North American drought, the most recent comparable drought, and is on track to exceed that drought as the costliest natural disaster in US history.

Paper after paper fail to find a human fingerprint regarding the drought here in the US. It is neither unusual nor unprecedented in its scope, or duration. In fact, numerous worse droughts occurred back when CO2 was at "safe" levels.

THE HOCKEY SCHTICK: New paper finds Arizona droughts were less frequent and less extreme during 20th century

A new paper published in Climatic Change reconstructs droughts in NE Arizona over the past 400 years and finds the 20th century had "fewer multiyear [severe droughts] than any other century" and that "Perhaps of greatest relevance, this study suggests that severe and sustained episodes of dual-season drought, which are largely missing from the instrumental period, have occurred multiple times in the past (e.g., 1660s, 1740s, 1890s)." The paper adds to multiple others demonstrating that global warming does not increase the frequency or severity of droughts, floods, cyclones, or extreme weather.

THE HOCKEY SCHTICK: New paper finds Arizona droughts were less frequent and less extreme during 20th century

A paper published in Geophysical Research Letters finds Midwest US droughts were less frequent and less extreme during the 20th century in comparison to the past 3100 years.The authors find the precipitation proxy "record of the past ∼3100 years reveals that droughts of greater severity and duration than during the 20th century occurred repeatedly, especially prior to 300 AD. Drought variability was anomalously low during the 20th century; ∼90% of the variability values during the last 3100 years were greater than the 20th-century average."

THE HOCKEY SCHTICK: New paper finds 2012 Great Plains drought was within natural variability

paper published today in Geophysical Research Letters finds the 2012 extreme Great Plains drought was within the natural variability of climate and that there is no evidence of a link to AGW. According to the authors, "it is concluded that the extreme Great Plains drought did not require extreme external forcings [i.e. greenhouse gases], and could plausibly have arisen from atmospheric noise [natural variability] alone." The four authors hail from different divisions of NOAA

THE HOCKEY SCHTICK: New paper shows N. American droughts were much more extreme 500 years ago

A paper published today in the Journal of Climate finds that the Central Plains of North America experienced multiple severe "megadroughts" [lasting up to 50 years each] during the Medieval Climate Anomaly from 1100-1500 AD. According to the authors, "These ‘megadroughts’ had exceptional persistence compared to more recent events." By comparison, the paper shows that droughts over the past 500 years have been much less extreme.

And again, I could continue with peer reviewed, published papers that are in direct opposition to your claims which derive from climate models.

Do you not think that impacted on farmers?

Sure it impacted farmers, but there is no provable human fingerprint on the drought as research clearly shows that they are not as bad today as they have been in the past. Drought is nothing new and pointing at it and every other natural climate variation and claiming demon CO2 and AGW is why you are not being taken seriously. If drought were something new then you would have a point but it isn't...neither are floods and neither have any definable human fingerprint attatched.

Remember when you used to ask for observable impacts of climate change?!

Climate change is not the issue since the climate is, has, and always will be changing. Man made climate change is the issue and it still remains unproven. Nothing is happening in the climate today that is new or unprecedented or outside the bounds of natural variability.

So again, describe in some detail exactly how a 2 degree increase in the global mean temperature will change my little corner of the world. I suspect that you won't really attempt to do so because in the long run, the pros will far outweigh the cons.

 

[SSDD]

I didnt ask for a link to Joe's manifesto, i asked for a diagram showing energy flow by different pathways. c'mon now....Joe doesnt even take the water cycle into consideration.

Neither does trenberth.

we all know that sunlight varies according to time and latitude.

And trenberth doesn't take even that into consideration.

according to the Slayers, is the average solar input off by 5%, 10%, 50%? which way?

How does trenberth address that?

I can certainly see the need for two diagrams, night&day, but how many are you proposing?

do you guys really ignore clouds, atmospheric gas composition, ocean currents and other effects?

Which of those are intergal parts of trenberth's cartoon. You are hammering Postma, but his model is superior to trenberths if for no other reason than he considers night and day. Don't hammer postma for not doing this or that when trenberth doesn't do it either. You asked for a better one and Postma's is better.

 

[SSDD]

SSDD -

Certainly a consideration and dangerous...but as science has shown the spread of such things is more a product of practice than climate.

Is it, really? Leshmaniasis is a product of farming practice? Malaria? Dengue? Tse tse fly?

Thousands, perhaps tens of thousands died in the southern US due to malaria. It doesn't happen now. It isn't because the temperature changed, it is due to practices that are in place now that weren't then. The anopholes mosquito was successfully controlled here and malaria is no longer a problem. The aedes mosquito can be controlled via the same practices. You are invoking boogie men that we have already proven controllable. Dengue, and malaria would be things of the past had misguided envirowackos not banned DDT.

You must realise yourself that your claim here is utter nonsense. While the use of water has an impact on mosquito breeding, we both know that the single biggest factor in insect-borne disease is climate.

This is exactly the kind of phenomena American farmers may face in future - phenomena which I have no doubt you would prefer not to even think about.

We faced it in the past and through practices, brought it under control.

 

[SSDD]

It is. Not by temperature, but by precipitation. Can't grow anything without water. If you're not taking precipitation changes into account, you're ignoring the most important factor.

I have asked specifically what sort of changes a 2 degree change in the global mean would mean to my little part of the world. You guy seem unwilling to get into any sort of specifics. I have asked about winter temps, summer temps, precipitation, growing seasons, crops that could no longer be grown here, crops that might be grown here...and on and on but am still gettting nothing but vague threats of doom and destruction. There is ample research showing that drought is worse during cooler periods.

For example, the aquifiers are running dry in parts of Oklahoma and Texas. Coupled with the chronic low rainfall we now see, that means farms being abandoned.

Is that a new thing in Oklahoma? Is drought and low aquifers a new thing in that part of the country. Have worse episodes happened in the past? This is an example of the vague sort of threats you guys hype up...you threaten drought in places where drought is business as usual.

And you can't just shift north. There's no soil north. Highly acidic Arctic muck on top of bedrock is not a suitable growing medium.

Ever hear of lime? We have plenty of acidic soil here in the south due to the decomposition of evergreens...lime takes care of acidic soil very quickly. The wonders of chemistry.

 

[PMZ]

Scientific opinion on climate change - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[SSDD]

SSDD -

Once again we can turn to the known historical record and look at that, primitive farmers with no high tech at all actually produced FAR more of EVERYTHING during the aforementioned warming periods. Just imagine what we can do with all this high tech.

I got an actual chuckle when he said that we should look at this with an open mind. Worst thing he can threaten us with if the temperature increases is bugs. Malaria, etc...I guess he doesn't know that malaria used to be a real problem down here in the south but we eliminted the problem.

While I am not a farmer, I live in a community of farmers and belong to a couple of organizations peopled with a lot of farmers and global warming is a joke among them. They would love to see the growing season lengthened by a couple of months and maybe be able to grow a couple of exotics that can't quite make it here now.

 

[SSDD]

Thanks West. I appreciate your correcting our friend Saigon who does seem to have a selective reading comprehension problem.

Nah...he is just a liar.

 

[westwall]

SSDD -

Once again we can turn to the known historical record and look at that, primitive farmers with no high tech at all actually produced FAR more of EVERYTHING during the aforementioned warming periods. Just imagine what we can do with all this high tech.

I got an actual chuckle when he said that we should look at this with an open mind. Worst thing he can threaten us with if the temperature increases is bugs. Malaria, etc...I guess he doesn't know that malaria used to be a real problem down here in the south but we eliminted the problem.

While I am not a farmer, I live in a community of farmers and belong to a couple of organizations peopled with a lot of farmers and global warming is a joke among them. They would love to see the growing season lengthened by a couple of months and maybe be able to grow a couple of exotics that can't quite make it here now.

What's laughable is their assertion that as the planet warms the malaria will creep northward. A more incredible lack of scientific acumen and historical knowledge would be hard to find with these idiots.

One of the worst ever malaria outbreaks occurred very close to the Arctic circle in Archangel in the 1920's. Siberia STILL has malaria outbreaks, Cromwell died of malaria, all long before the CO2 levels ever got to "dangerous" levels.

 

[SSDD]

They have to stick to ethereal threats of doom and destruction because if they get specific, or even close to specific, history will tear them to shreds every damned time.

 

[mamooth]

I have asked specifically what sort of changes a 2 degree change in the global mean would mean to my little part of the world.

A really dumb question, as the answer is meaningless. Your part of the world is a tiny part of the world, and it being safe has little to do with the harm of global warming.

You guy seem unwilling to get into any sort of specifics.

Because we recognize your attempt at deflection, and are not willing to play along with your deliberate distortion of our position. _You_ are the only one claiming total catastrophe. That's your problem, not ours. If you denialists are going to shriek and panic hysterically, it's not going to be possible to speak with you.

There is ample research showing that drought is worse during cooler periods.

Depends where you are. In the southwestern and central west USA, rising temps means more drought. In the southeast, rising temps means more flooding.

Trends in 20th century drought over the continental United States - Andreadis - 2006 - Geophysical Research Letters - Wiley Online Library
---
Droughts have, for the most part, become shorter, less frequent, and cover a smaller portion of the country over the last century. The main exception is the Southwest and parts of the interior of the West, where, notwithstanding increased precipitation (and in some cases increased soil moisture and runoff), increased temperature has led to trends in drought characteristics that are mostly opposite to those for the rest of the country especially in the case of drought duration and severity, which have increased.
---

Is that a new thing in Oklahoma? Is drought and low aquifers a new thing in that part of the country.

Yep. The aquifiers haven't run dry before. That's what long-term drought does, combined with the pumping out the aquifiers.

Have worse episodes happened in the past?

No. The aquifiers have never run dry before.

Ever hear of lime? We have plenty of acidic soil here in the south due to the decomposition of evergreens...lime takes care of acidic soil very quickly. The wonders of chemistry.

You're going to lime most of northern Canada? Um ... sure. Yes, that will turn the quicksand into solid soil right off.

 

[mamooth]

Dengue, and malaria would be things of the past had misguided envirowackos not banned DDT.

This is how the nutball right-wing-fringe political cult works. The cultists aren't permitted to only embrace one single retarded conspiracy theory. They're mandated to embrace every last one of them.