How we know Hitler was right wing.

[Mac1958]

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Oh good. Another Hitler thread.

I propose the moderators set up a Hitler section, where partisan ideologues can come up with thousands of delightful ways to compare a true monster, the murderer of millions of innocent people, to Americans who really tick them off.

Because it's so obvious the two are so comparable.

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[Saigon]

Intense -

Not all tyrants and dictators share the same philosophy and ideology. Yes, Stalin, Mao and Hitler were tyrants and dictators, but no, Hitler was not a communist.

The funny thing is, I have never seen a left wing poster attempt to re-write history and claim Stalin was right wing. And yet this week we have seen TWO right-wing posters attempt to re-write history and pretend Hitler was left wing.

 

[Intense]

Intense -

Not all tyrants and dictators share the same philosophy and ideology. Yes, Stalin, Mao and Hitler were tyrants and dictators, but no, Hitler was not a communist.

The funny thing is, I have never seen a left wing poster attempt to re-write history and claim Stalin was right wing. And yet this week we have seen TWO right-wing posters attempt to re-write history and pretend Hitler was left wing.

Tyrants, are pretty much by nature, Totalitarian, Left, Right, is as insignificant as the label on the bullet aimed at one's head. The end result is the same. Hitler was a Socialist. It's a label. When absolute power and control is the end game, when people are looked at as nothing more than property, possessions, commodities, when the concept of Rights is sacrificed for the convenience of the State, the Collective, the Party, the Few, it's the same end. Maybe the clearer focus is Justice V.S. Injustice, as opposed to Left V.S. Right. What ever the brand, when power becomes extreme, there is a disconnect from knowing what is correct action, and being a minister of it. No construct is of more value than it's Prime Purpose. It's when we close our eyes to that, that the atrocities start, both Right and Left.

 

[DiamondDave]

Prior coming to this board, I had never heard anyone suggest Hitler was anything but right wing. This may be something to do with living in Europe where the awareness of fascism is so very high because it occured here, or maybe it's something our education system focuses on. Or maybe coincidence.

Either way, recently I've noticed two posters recently insist Hitler was left wing....and even liberal.

Here is SSDD:

Hitler's government was called right wing by communists and socialists of the time, but his governemnt was still socialist. It consisted of a large and powerful central authority which is, by definition, not a conservative, or classically lberal government

Right wing and left wing are two wings of the same house and the house is socialism.

In cases like this, I am not sure facts have a great deal of impact, but maybe it is interesting to discuss some of the features of Fascism anyway.

Let's start with some quotes from Hitler:

"The main plank in the Nationalist Socialist program is to abolish the liberalistic concept of the individual and the Marxist concept of humanity and to substitute for them the folk community, rooted in the soil and bound together by the bond of its common blood."

"The German state is gravely attacked by Marxism."

"In the years 1913 and 1914, I… expressed the conviction that the question of the future of the German nation was the question of destroying Marxism."

"In the economic sphere Communism is analogous to democracy in the political sphere."

"The Marxists will march with democracy until they succeed in indirectly obtaining for their criminal aims the support of even the national intellectual world, destined by them for extinction."

"Marxism itself systematically plans to hand the world over to the Jews."

"The Jewish doctrine of Marxism rejects the aristocratic principle of Nature and replaces the eternal privilege of power and strength by the mass of numbers and their dead weight."

Myth: Hitler was a leftist

He attacked OTHER socialist nations because of his will for world domination.. it does not take away from the fact that his totalitarian national socialism was indeed real...

The nazis were about complete government control.. even when they gave 'industries' over to favored 'business people' it was with complete control and huge stipulations (even to the fact that some were eliminated when the socialist nazi bidding was not followed exactly)

Hitler was extreme totalitarian and on the left with his socialist practices

 

[LittleNipper]

Intense -

Not all tyrants and dictators share the same philosophy and ideology. Yes, Stalin, Mao and Hitler were tyrants and dictators, but no, Hitler was not a communist.

The funny thing is, I have never seen a left wing poster attempt to re-write history and claim Stalin was right wing. And yet this week we have seen TWO right-wing posters attempt to re-write history and pretend Hitler was left wing.

Both a communist and a socialist can be for absolute control of the people. Rather than a simple line (Everyone who believe this has it all wrong). Politics is a CIRCLE. As policies proceeds to the right or left, they will eventually come together at the bottom of the dung heap. Lefties are no worse than righties when it comes to throwing curve balls. The average citizens suffer just as much when the bottom is reached by either means.

 

[Intense]

Intense -

Not all tyrants and dictators share the same philosophy and ideology. Yes, Stalin, Mao and Hitler were tyrants and dictators, but no, Hitler was not a communist.

The funny thing is, I have never seen a left wing poster attempt to re-write history and claim Stalin was right wing. And yet this week we have seen TWO right-wing posters attempt to re-write history and pretend Hitler was left wing.

Both a communist and a socialist can be for absolute control of the people. Rather than a simple line (Everyone who believe this has it all wrong). Politics is a CIRCLE. As policies proceeds to the right or left, they will eventually come together at the bottom of the dung heap. Lefties are no worse than righties when it comes to throwing curve balls. The average citizens suffer just as much when the bottom is reached by either means.

When Authority strays from preserving Justice, when Justice is sacrificed, corrupted, Tyranny is born.

 

[Sunni Man]

Hitler's nazi fascism and Stalin's communism were where just two different names for competing Left wing totalitarian ideologies with the same goals and end game.......

 

[Circe]

Exactly.

Describing any politician as being 'left wing' or 'right wing' does not condemn or condone his politics - it is merely a description.

I've never seen a left-wing posters try to suggest that Mao or Stalin were not left wing or were not dictators - until coming to this forum I'd never seen a righ-wing poster try to pretend Hitler was not right wing.

This kind of re-writing of history is dangerous and should concern people of all political persuasions.

Well, Saigon, Hitler's party WAS called the "National Socialist" Party. That's where the abbreviation Nazi came from. They definitely thought they were socialist! Not communist, obviously, but they did call themselves socialist and many things Hitler did about controlling corporations in Germany does back that up.

Fascism was only invented by Mussolini in 1921, after all, and it spread quickly all over the developed world to most European countries and America. It was not clear WHAT it was --- they were just starting it up and creating freely. Remember too that Russian communism/socialism only started in 1917, and the differentiations and definitions were not at all clear to anybody.

I think it's an historical mistake to cling too strongly to early categorizations -- and by early, I mean under a hundred years. Right now the current of history is to consider World Wars I and II to be all one Thirty Years War --- because the original war issue (German wanted to control Europe and felt strongly that it should) was never settled in WWI since the Germans were never either invaded or defeated and came home furiously angry and ready for another war soon.

There are two issues at once here. You are implying that people slur leftists by saying Hitler was a leftist. That is very like the many people outraged when history students of the American Civil War say the war was not caused by slavery but by secession. The angry people assume that a whitewash is going on.

But these are good historical points in both cases. Hitler unquestionably thought he was a socialist at the time: hey, maybe he knew! And Lincoln didn't care anything about slavery compared with his real and urgent issue: he had just lost fully 50% of the United States! Now THAT was a big problem, and he raised an army to walk that back.

In real history, things are muddy and unclear. It's not always a slur against your side. Sometimes it's an interesting historical point.

 

[Sunni Man]

Socialism is just communism lite .......

 

[Saigon]

To those who are saying 'What does it matter if a tyrant is left or right' - I agree, but it depends on who you are.

Left wing and right wing regimes have very different enemies. Stalin targeted the rich, the aristocrats, the land owners and investors. Those groups all benefitted under Hitler's rule.

Hitler targeted racial minorities and outsiders - groups who occasionally benefited under the rule of outsiders like Stalin, Caucescu or Milosevic.

 

[Saigon]

Fascism was only invented by Mussolini in 1921, after all, and it spread quickly all over the developed world to most European countries and America. It was not clear WHAT it was --- they were just starting it up and creating freely. Remember too that Russian communism/socialism only started in 1917, and the differentiations and definitions were not at all clear to anybody.
.

This is a key point - and the real reason behind the use of the word 'socialist' by an extreme right wing party.

Keeping in mind that the German Nazi party was formed in the early 1920's - at which point the word was not being widely used internationally with its modern meaning. Russians preferred the term 'Communists' - Hitler and his allies called their enemies 'Marxist'.

Many sources have described the odd usage of the word, what Hitler might meant by it and why it was used. but this should in no way be taken to mean that Hitler was a Marxist - he despised Marxists. (see quotes in the OP)

 

[LordBrownTrout]

I'm not sure why you are assigning an ideology to despots, murderers, tyrants, and dictators.

 

[Saigon]

Both a communist and a socialist can be for absolute control of the people. Rather than a simple line (Everyone who believe this has it all wrong). Politics is a CIRCLE. As policies proceeds to the right or left, they will eventually come together at the bottom of the dung heap. Lefties are no worse than righties when it comes to throwing curve balls. The average citizens suffer just as much when the bottom is reached by either means.

Not a cricle, but a horseshoe. A horseshoe in which the extremes are closer to each other than they are to the centre.

Remember that the defining aspects of politics are capital and class, and in these senses left and right will always be direct opposites ideoogically.

This is a basic horseshoe

The political circle doesn't really work, but I do think this graphic has merit:

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Your chart is way off. Racism exists regardless of party affiliation. Pretty much blew its cred.

 

[DiamondDave]

To those who are saying 'What does it matter if a tyrant is left or right' - I agree, but it depends on who you are.

Left wing and right wing regimes have very different enemies. Stalin targeted the rich, the aristocrats, the land owners and investors. Those groups all benefitted under Hitler's rule.

Hitler targeted racial minorities and outsiders - groups who occasionally benefited under the rule of outsiders like Stalin, Caucescu or Milosevic.

Unless you did not do the bidding of the workers party.. then you were removed or eliminated... why?? Because socialism is not for the socialists in charge, only who they wish to control...

It was just another flavor of totalitarian socialism

 

[Rocko]

 

[Circe]

I'm not sure why you are assigning an ideology to despots, murderers, tyrants, and dictators.

It's a useful exercise for modern tyrants, etc. At least it shows us that totalitarianism encompasses both communism and fascism.

I suppose you are right for despots in distant history: no use categorizing Attilla the Hun or Caligula or Nero or Mohammed or Saladin or Richard II as left or right or using modern terms. It's enough to say they murdered a lot of people.

Interesting point, really. Was Thomas More (f. early-mid 1500s) a rightwinger? I suppose he was left in early life and right in later life! But I'm more interested in his writing Utopia (left) early on and then (right) burning people at the stake decades later. I mean, I know we all get more conservative as we grow older, but darn......

 

[Saigon]

Your chart is way off. Racism exists regardless of party affiliation. Pretty much blew its cred.

Actually, I agree with that.

The model is wonderful, but the example I posted is a bit eccentric. Many of the graphics don't mark positions for things like fascism, because they assume everyone knows it is at the extreme right!

 

[DiamondDave]

Your chart is way off. Racism exists regardless of party affiliation. Pretty much blew its cred.

Actually, I agree with that.

The model is wonderful, but the example I posted is a bit eccentric. Many of the graphics don't mark positions for things like fascism, because they assume everyone knows it is at the extreme right!

And they would assume wrongly, like you are

 

[Dutch]

Prior coming to this board, I had never heard anyone suggest Hitler was anything but right wing. This may be something to do with living in Europe where the awareness of fascism is so very high because it occured here, or maybe it's something our education system focuses on. Or maybe coincidence.

Either way, recently I've noticed two posters recently insist Hitler was left wing....and even liberal.

Here is SSDD:

Hitler's government was called right wing by communists and socialists of the time, but his governemnt was still socialist. It consisted of a large and powerful central authority which is, by definition, not a conservative, or classically lberal government

Any Authoritarian Socialists of the Nazi party were eliminated during The night of the Long Nives.

Right wing and left wing are two wings of the same house and the house is socialism.

In cases like this, I am not sure facts have a great deal of impact, but maybe it is interesting to discuss some of the features of Fascism anyway.

Let's start with some quotes from Hitler:

"The main plank in the Nationalist Socialist program is to abolish the liberalistic concept of the individual and the Marxist concept of humanity and to substitute for them the folk community, rooted in the soil and bound together by the bond of its common blood."

"The German state is gravely attacked by Marxism."

"In the years 1913 and 1914, I… expressed the conviction that the question of the future of the German nation was the question of destroying Marxism."

"In the economic sphere Communism is analogous to democracy in the political sphere."

"The Marxists will march with democracy until they succeed in indirectly obtaining for their criminal aims the support of even the national intellectual world, destined by them for extinction."

"Marxism itself systematically plans to hand the world over to the Jews."

"The Jewish doctrine of Marxism rejects the aristocratic principle of Nature and replaces the eternal privilege of power and strength by the mass of numbers and their dead weight."

Myth: Hitler was a leftist

He attacked OTHER socialist nations because of his will for world domination.. it does not take away from the fact that his totalitarian national socialism was indeed real...

The nazis were about complete government control.. even when they gave 'industries' over to favored 'business people' it was with complete control and huge stipulations (even to the fact that some were eliminated when the socialist nazi bidding was not followed exactly)

Hitler was extreme totalitarian and on the left with his socialist practices

Any Authoritarian Socialists of the Nazi party were eliminated during The night of the Long Nives.

[BNight of the Long Knives - some SA leaders are demanding that the Nazi party carry out its socialist agenda, and that the SA take over the army. Hitler cannot afford to annoy the businessmen or the army, so the SS [SS: Also known as the Blackshirts. A German police/ military style organisation created to serve as the personal bodyguards of Adolf Hitler. In Hitler's Germany they eventually controlled the intelligence, security and police forces, and extermination of those they considered undesirable. ] murders perhaps 400 of the SA members, including its leader Röhm, along with a number of Hitler's other opponents.
"]][URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/history/mwh/germany/hitlerconsolidaterev_print.shtml"]