Zone1 How we know the Catholic Church (called such at least as early as 107 AD) did not fail

[forkintheroad7]

The Catholic Church is the only one that goes back to the beginning of Christ's ministry. No other supposed "church" goes back that far. Catholics consider Protestant "churches" ecclesial communities, somewhat a part of the Church, but not THE CHURCH because there is only ONE of those.

So yeh, we know the Church did not fail as many non-Catholic sects tell us ad nauseum. Some of those will tell you that Constantine started the CC.

Oh... and what was the Church b4 Constantine came along? Know what you'll get when you ask that question? Crickets

No, the Church goes back to the days of Jesus Christ, His Resurrection/Ascension

But in case one does not believe that.. There is this: "I will build My Church" Jesus said "And the gates of Hell will not prevail against it"

Mt 16:18

Jesus does not lie

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[Zebra]

thank God for a rare pro.catholic posting!

 

[Zebra]

sadly enough the Catholic faith is usually insulted …..

 

[Meriweather]

But in case one does not believe that.. There is this: "I will build My Church" Jesus said "And the gates of Hell will not prevail against it"

Recently I heard commentary addressing this. When I had read/heard these lines before, I had the impression that hell would not prevail over the Church. It was called to our attention that gates are not an offensive measure, but one of defense. And these gates cannot withstand the power of the Body of Christ. These gates will fall. Have you already heard that perspective?

 

[LeroyDumonde]

Do you have evidence that the Catholic Church went by that name in 107 AD?

 

[Meriweather]

Do you have evidence that the Catholic Church went by that name in 107 AD?

Around that time, St. Ignatius used the term 'catholic' (or universal) in a letter he wrote. It meant all were welcome in this Church. You may recall that Judaism was mostly 'closed'; most had to have been born into the Jewish faith, and converts were not sought, this was to be avoided. In contrast, the Church Christ set into motion was open to all.

 

[LeroyDumonde]

Around that time, St. Ignatius used the term 'catholic' (or universal) in a letter he wrote. It meant all were welcome in this Church. You may recall that Judaism was mostly 'closed'; most had to have been born into the Jewish faith, and converts were not sought, this was to be avoided. In contrast, the Church Christ set into motion was open to all.

Do you know who that letter was to? I'd like to check the context.

 

[onefour1]

When this verse is read in context with the previous few verses it can be interpreted differently.

Matthew 16:13
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

In verses 13-17 Jesus asks his disciple who do men say that I am? They give various answers which were not correct. Then Jesus asks his disciples who do you say that I am? Simon Peter answers, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God". Jesus then declares, "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona; for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." Here Jesus points out that other men did not teach this to Simon Peter but that Simon Peter learned this by direct revelation from God the Father. This is a great and glorious teaching of how we can receive truth! It is through the revelation of God that we can know truth. Through the gift of revelation we can know the truth. Jesus then tells Peter that upon this rock (of revelation) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Jesus built his church upon the principle of revelation. Through the offices of Apostles and Prophets Jesus wound establish his church and these leaders wound be under the leadership of Jesus Christ who would use the gift of revelation to guide his Apostles and Prophets.

Paul, an Apostle of Jesus Christ, taught:

Ephesians 4:11-15
11 And HE (Jesus) gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Here we learn that Jesus set up Apostles and Prophets to be a part of his church to receive revelation and prophesy to guide his church for as long as we have not come unto being perfect men in Christ. An Apostle and Prophet are they who receive direct revelation from God to guide and help perfect the saints so that they can come to a perfect unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. But what do we find in the Catholic Church after the days of the Apostles? We no longer find Apostles and Prophets in the church and instead of finding revelations from God we learn that they declare that the Canon has been closed and there can be no more revelation from God. After the days of the Apostles of Jesus Christ, the church fell into a state of apostasy and changed the church and many of its precious teachings. This was prophesied by the Prophet Amos:

Amos 3:7
7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Amos 8:11-12
11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

Yes, a great apostasy from Jesus Christ's established church of Apostles and Prophets and His holy revelations was lost. Does this mean that the gates of hell prevailed against the revelations and church of Jesus Christ? NO! In any game of sports if one team gets ahead of the opposing team before the game is over, does this mean that that team has prevailed against the other team? NO! Only at the end of the game do we see who actually prevails. The gates of hell may gain a certain degree of advantage but they do not prevail until the end of the game. The great apostasy came about because of the wickedness of men and the priesthood and authority of God were taken from the earth. This necessitated a restitution of the Lord's church and priesthood. That restoration was prophesied in the book of Acts:

Acts 3:19-21
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

This was prophesied after Jesus ha died and was resurrected. Jesus would again be sent and bring about a restitution of all things. This prophesy was fulfilled when God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to the boy prophet Joseph Smith and by 1830 restored His church again upon this earth. Jesus named his latter-day church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So as you can see, the gates of hell have not prevailed over his church and Christ will eventually destroy evil from off the face of the earth and will reign for 1000 years as king over all the earth.

 

[Meriweather]

Do you know who that letter was to? I'd like to check the context.

There are probably other sites, but Catholic Culture ( Library : The Seven Epistles Of St. Ignatius Of Antioch ) has translations for all St. Ignatius wrote. The reason I say other sites, because I also recall there have been some translations that use the word 'universal' instead of catholic. At the time, they were defined the same...open to all.​

 

[ninja007]

Roman Catholicism Is Not Christianity​

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Josh Buice

One of the great temptations when it comes to religion is to level the playing field and approach each religion on equal ground. We have been taught the need to “coexist” with other mainline religions for many years. In recent years, there has been an increasing trend to approach Roman Catholicism as if it’s another denominational group within orthodox Christianity. That is simply not the case. To put it plainly, Roman Catholicism is a heretical religion that preaches a different gospel than the gospel of Jesus. Roman Catholics are not Christians and should not be approached as brothers and sisters in Christ.
We must not embrace Roman Catholics as Christians on the basis of their official teachings. In this article, I will summarize some key doctrinal differences that exist between Roman Catholicism and Christianity.

The False Gospel of the Roman Catholic Church​

The Bible clearly teaches that all have sinned and trespassed God’s holy law (Rom 3:23). In order to be reconciled to God, sinners must come to God by faith and embrace the free gift of salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ (Rom 5:8; Rom 10:13). The Scriptures are explicitly clear that no person receives the forgiveness of sins through works (Eph 2:8-9). Salvation is a gift from God so that no person can boast.
According to official Roman Catholic doctrine, in order for a person to be saved, it’s quite a tedious task. It involves steps such as actual grace, faith, good works, baptism, participation in the sacraments, penance, indulgences, and keeping the commandments. In short, the doctrine of soteriology taught by the Roman Catholic Church is a works-based system where a person must work their way to God. Below you will see some citations from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
The Necessity of Faith (not alone)
Faith is central to Christian theology, but according to the Roman Catholic Church, it’s merely one aspect of the system of salvation. According to their Catechism, they write:

• “Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: ‘He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned,’ (Mk 16:16)” (CCC 183).

According to the official teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, faith is necessary for salvation. That’s good, but they don’t stop there. Faith, in Roman Catholic theology, is merely the starting point. They build from there adding to faith other works of man – including “the Church” and tradition.

• “Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation,” (CCC 846).

The Necessity of Baptism
While we are called as Christians to follow the Lord in baptism as a means of identifying with the Lord Jesus Christ and his Church, we are not to embrace the practice of baptism as a saving ordinance / sacrament. The Roman Catholic Church connects baptism to justification.

• “Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God’s mercy” (CCC 2020).
• “Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude…” (CCC 1257).

As you can see, according to the Roman Catholic Church, baptism is a necessary sacrament whereby a person is granted salvation. In a blasphemous way, they claim, “The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude.” Their reference to “The Church” is a reference to the Roman Catholic Church. They don’t recognize any other church as legitimate. The basis of their claim is centered on their belief that “baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin” (CCC 405). Their errors do not stop with baptism.

The Roman Catholic Church does not embrace Protestant Christians as brothers and sisters in Christ to this very day. Why would we embrace Roman Catholics as Christians?

In the 1500s, the Reformers broke with the Roman Catholic Church and exposed their false gospel. The Protestants were protesting against the sale of indulgences (literally the sale of salvation) and unbiblical practices of the Roman religion. Later, the Roman Catholic Church would protest against the Reformers with their own statement that emerged from the Council of Trent (1545 – 1563) that contained condemnatory language aimed directly at the Protestants. Consider some key statements that were officially published by the Roman Catholic Church at the Council of Trent. It should be noted that the use of “anathema” is intentional and is intended as a statement that anyone who embraces the Protestant teachings is considered damned to hell by the Roman Catholic Church.

• On Justification: The Council of Trent denounced the idea of justification by faith alone, emphasizing the necessity of works: “If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema” (Session 6, Canon 24).

• On Sacraments: In regard to the sacraments, the Council reaffirmed the efficacy of the sacraments for salvation and anathematized those who denied their importance: “If anyone says that these sacraments of the New Law do not differ from the sacraments of the Old Law, except that the ceremonies are different and the external rites are different, let him be anathema” (Session 7, Canon 1).

• On Transubstantiation: The Council affirmed the doctrine of transubstantiation and anathematized those who rejected it: “If anyone denies that in the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist are contained truly, really and substantially the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore the whole Christ, let him be anathema” (Session 13, Canon 1).

• On Good Works and the Human Will: “If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema” (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).

Notice how they place “faith alone” in the direct crosshairs of their teachings. They vehemently oppose the teachings of Scripture that salvation comes by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. Furthermore, they likewise teach that the human will prepares us and cooperates with God in order to bring about justification. This stands in contradiction to the teachings of Scripture. The Roman Catholic Church does not embrace Protestant Christians as brothers and sisters in Christ to this very day. Why would we embrace Roman Catholics as Christians?

The Rejection of Sola Scriptura of the Roman Catholic Church​

During the time of the Reformation, a list of five key statements were published by the Reformers as flags in the soil that help explain where the Reformers stood on key doctrines of the faith. These statements became known as the five solas of the Reformation.

• Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone)
• Sola Gratia (Grace Alone)
• Sola Fide” (Faith
• Sola Fide” (Faith Alone)
• Solus Christus (Christ Alone)
• Soli Deo Gloria (To God Alone Be Glory)

At the top of the list is sola Scriptura. The Bible is sufficient to provide us with everything necessary for saving faith and obedience to God. Sola Scriptura is intentionally placed at the top of the list because if your doctrine of Scripture is polluted, it will result in pollution downstream on other key doctrines such as the doctrine of salvation and the doctrine of the church. Certainly the Roman Catholic Church’s denial of sola Scriptura leads to functional errors of worship in terms of the way they pray to saints and elevate Mary to a co–Redemptrix as well. At the Council of Trent, the Roman Catholic Church, in an official capacity, took direct aim at this foundational doctrine of sola Scriptura.

On Tradition and Scripture: The Council defended the authority of both Sacred Tradition and Scripture and anathematized those who rejected this dual authority: “If anyone does not accept the entire books with all their parts … as they have been accustomed to be read in the Catholic Church … let him be anathema” (Session 4, Canon 8).

It is the long-standing position of the Church of Jesus Christ to embrace the inerrancy, infallibility, authority, and complete sufficiency of the Word of God. However, the Roman Catholic Church commits the tragic error of adding the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church to sacred Scripture. In fact, they go as far as elevating tradition to the level of divine authority. Therefore, if the Roman Catholic Church officially recognizes a teaching as truth – no matter what the Bible says – it’s to be taken as sacred, holy, divine, and authoritative.

When the Bible was unleashed in the common man’s language beginning with Martin Luther in German followed by William Tyndale in English, it took the control away from the Roman Catholic Church. This was the spark of the Reformation.

All throughout church history, the Roman Catholic Church has fought for control over the Bible. They hated men like John Wycliffe and murdered William Tyndale for their work in translating the Scripture into the common man’s language. When the Bible was unleashed in the common man’s language beginning with Martin Luther in German followed by William Tyndale in English, it took the control away from the Roman Catholic Church. This was the spark of the Reformation. Suddenly the people could understand the Scriptures as they were read and preached. The Roman Catholic Church still seeks to gain control by binding people with their traditions as they’re elevated to the level of divine Scripture.

“Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal.” Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age.”1

God’s Word doesn’t need any additions or addendums. As Paul said to Timothy, the Word of God is capable of reproving, rebuking, edifying, and educating (2 Tim 4:1-5). To add to the Word of Truth is not only a blasphemous error against God’s holy Word, but against God himself. Did He forget something? Did He overlook something? What a grievous error to suggest that God’s Word is incomplete. This is an error that will have a damning affect upon the soul (Rev 22:18-19). R.C. Sproul has rightly summarized the fact that the Roman Catholic Church has denied the true gospel of Jesus and should not be embraced as a true church:

At the moment the Roman Catholic Church condemned the biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone, she denied the gospel and ceased to be a legitimate church, regardless of all the rest of her affirmations of Christian orthodoxy. To embrace her as an authentic church while she continues to repudiate the biblical doctrine of salvation is a fatal attribution. 2

In conclusion, Protestants continue to protest against the Roman Catholic Church. Until such time that the Roman Catholic Church officially repents of preaching a false gospel of works and changes their official doctrines to align with the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ from the sufficient Scriptures—we cannot and we must not embrace Roman Catholics as Christians.

 

[luiza]

So why is this Cult religion dying on its feet?

Particularly as it is supposedly backed by Goddy Boy and his pals?
Incidentally , what sort of physical intimacy led to the Enforcers ( Arch Angels ) ?
Why were there no women Enforcers?
Is Goddy Boy a hermaphrodite ?

 

[there4eyeM]

The history of the Church of Rome testifies against it.

 

[Meriweather]

So why is this Cult religion dying on its feet?

Particularly as it is supposedly backed by Goddy Boy and his pals?
Incidentally , what sort of physical intimacy led to the Enforcers ( Arch Angels ) ?
Why were there no women Enforcers?

1. No civil person ever kicks and derides a man when he is down. Those who do see a man who is still quite strong.
2. Anyone strong in their own faith/beliefs has does not throw rocks at another. It makes it seem they doubt their faith/beliefs.
3. God remains with us during good times and in bad times.
4. The only thing needed for evil to grow and to endure is for beings who are good to do nothing.
5. While the Bible refers to angels as 'he', they do not have a human gender--it is simply they way humans chose to reference them. If you wish to refer to arch angels as she, go against the norm. Angels are messengers (it's what 'angel' means), and they don't even have names, not in the same way we do. They are called by the task they were assigned. Who Is Like God (Michael); God is healer (Raphael); God is my Strength (Gabriel).

 

[Meriweather]

The history of the Church of Rome testifies against it.

One one side of a paper, list all the things you have done well. Flip the paper over and list all the things you haven't done very well or failed to do at all.

Organizations (including Churches and governments) have two sides as well--success and failures.

Two people look out through the bars: One sees the mud; one sees the stars. When someone looks at us and/or the agencies to which we belong, do we want them to focus/testify on the mud or to focus/testify on the stars...for there is both in life.

 

[LeroyDumonde]

There are probably other sites, but Catholic Culture ( Library : The Seven Epistles Of St. Ignatius Of Antioch ) has translations for all St. Ignatius wrote. The reason I say other sites, because I also recall there have been some translations that use the word 'universal' instead of catholic. At the time, they were defined the same...open to all.​

I did some digging last night and found it.

 

[Hawkins]

Anything physical can fall. God's Church as the body of Christ won't fall, as it's the Temple built in three days.

This is actually by the same token how ancient Judaism failed. It's the only Chosen People, but failed as a phyiscal entity. This usually goes along with an authentication removal. Ancient Judaism completely went off or being shut down with the indication that the Second Temple being wiped out from the surface of earth. It is a complete removal of the Jewish authentication.

As long as RCC still embraces the Apostles' Creed, it's still inside God Church on earth, it's still with Jesus and God. If what you try to say is that the Protestant churches are illegal, so you are saying that the same number of Christians as many as Catholics won't be savable. That's apparently not the case. Protestants are legal and authenticated, with Protestant Christians saved through the New Covenant (i.e., through Jesus Christ). That actually begs the question "what's wrong with the old RCC".

That being said.
OT is witnessed by the Jews, canonized by the Jews.
NT is witnessed by the Apostles, canonized by Christians.

In a sense, the Jews have an authenticated OT Canon, while the Catholics is having an authenticated NT Canon. Only Protestant Christians can have both. That's how God's authentication works, IMO.

 

[forkintheroad7]

sadly enough the Catholic faith is usually insulted …..

I don't focus on dumbass humans. I've known SO many of them.. unthinking, impulsive, couldn't-care-less-if-they're-right-or not

people

If you focus on people and that means taking your eyes off Christ, you will be miserable all the time. And you won't make it to Heaven. So yeh... and being on this forum proves how many morally vacuous people there are in the world, and what absolute HATERS. The antiCatholics hate a Church they do not even begin to understand... it's irrational as hell

(actually, come to think of it, Hell is probably more rational)

 

[forkintheroad7]

Recently I heard commentary addressing this. When I had read/heard these lines before, I had the impression that hell would not prevail over the Church. It was called to our attention that gates are not an offensive measure, but one of defense. And these gates cannot withstand the power of the Body of Christ. These gates will fall. Have you already heard that perspective?

well, yeh, i probably have, just not in those words. But whatever way you say it, Christ does not renege on his promises. He promised that His Church would NOT fail and yet here are all these self-proclaimed theologians and other "experts" telling us at every turn that 1) the Church went underground, was no longer visible to the entire world (actually, that may be the case today, since 1958..) or 2) that Constatine invented the Catholic Church. No, all he did was make it acceptable and legal to be Catholic.

As to my statement about the Church going underground as of 1958, I absolutely believe/KNOW this. There is no way the last several popes are REAL popes. Real popes do NOT err in matters of faith and morals.. and I don't want to hear that stuff about ex cathedra this and that.. a real pope says Catholic stuff, to put itsimply.. and not just when writing ex cathedra documents

 

[forkintheroad7]

Do you have evidence that the Catholic Church went by that name in 107 AD?

yes, the early Church fathers used that term in written documents that have survived the test of time. All you have to do is Search Early Church Fathers

and you will find Catholicism

 

[forkintheroad7]

Around that time, St. Ignatius used the term 'catholic' (or universal) in a letter he wrote. It meant all were welcome in this Church.

Maybe.

And maybe Universal means that the Truth of Christ's Church (and there is only ONE of those) applies to everyone, whether they call themselves Catholic or not.. applies to everyone

universally

(likely both)

After all, fornication is not a grievous error for one person but not another. Murdering the unborn... ditto