I Don't Want to be Eaten

[MikeK]

I would rather not tie this behavior to the BDSM community. They believe very strongly in safe, consensual power exchange and nothing to do with intentional harm - especially not to someone who is not consenting.
Even in total power exchange (slave - Master) relationships it is consensual and can be stopped at any time. If you abuse the rules of safe and consensual then you are very quickly removed from any group participation.

Are you allowing for extreme examples in the B&D category, such as participants on the website in question seem to be? While the ordinary B&D folks might adhere to the rules you've specified during actual practice, so far as I've read and heard this fellow has actually done nothing actual to or with anyone to affirm the charges against him.

It seems to me all they have on him so far is some preliminary suggestions that he intended to commit the specified crimes. If he claims he was merely acting out a fantasy with no intention of doing any real harm, do they have any evidence to the contrary?

Now I'm learning his wife found the website and became terrified, which is understandable -- unless this is a situation in which she knows he is a freak, has finally become fed up with him and has lowered the boom on him? The important question is, did he ever actually do anything to her to suggest he is inclined to act on his bizarre fantasies?

 

[Misty]

I wonder if he watched Hannibal the cannibal as a porn movie?

It is one of those cases where if he is merely fantasizing there is no crime on the books about this fantasy that I know of, however fantasizing about having sex with children is a crime I believe.

May have to write a new law.

 

[Misty]

Defining Fantasy

Fantasy and the role it plays in serial murder has been an interest of mine for some time.* This fascination began while attempting to understand the motives of serial murderers and reading Sexual Homicide: Patterns and Motives (Ressler et al., 1988).* In my opinion, fantasy is at the core of serial murder, and is one of the driving forces behind these crimes. I am not the first to recognize this concept; in fact, nearly all authors include fantasy within any discussion of serial murder.* However, I became intrigued while reading case studies of several serial murderers that seem to indicate and support exceptions to this theory."

Defining



This is an interesting read on serial killers and how their killings begin with a fantasy.

 

[PaulS1950]

The fantasy and having the fantasy are not illegal. We have an absolute freedom of thought. It is only when we act upon those thoughts that it can break the law.

Fanacising about having sex with children is not against the law. Collecting pictures of the act or perfoming the act is against the law.

There is a big difference between fantasizing about something and actually doing it.

 

[MikeK]

I wonder if he watched Hannibal the cannibal as a porn movie?

That thought occurred to me when I first read about this case, mainly because I was rather surprised at the cannibalism theme in Silence of The Lambs. I believe it was the first time such an outlandish sexual deviation was presented by the mainstream entertainment media. It's possible the popularity of that movie, like the popularity of The Exorcist and Rosemary's Baby, could bring a lot of extreme deviants out of the shadows and onto the Internet where they can air their exotic imaginings -- much like some of the extreme but essentially harmless survivalist types who like to discuss Red Dawn scenarios.

I've read and heard about some really strange sexual perversions, including bestiality and necrophilia, but not cannibalism. That would seem to exist more in the realm of some bizarre and obscure satanic cult. So have you read or heard whether investigators have cause to believe something like that might be involved?

It is one of those cases where if he is merely fantasizing there is no crime on the books about this fantasy that I know of, however fantasizing about having sex with children is a crime I believe.

I don't believe there is any specific prohibition where cannibalism pornography (whether visual or verbal) is concerned. But there are very specific prohibitions against any form of child pornography, which would include expressed fantasies. I recall reading about some difficulty with the first release of Nabokov's, Lolita, and the decision to allow the book's release being based on the fact the so-called nymphet in the story was post-pubescent therefore technically not the object of pedophilic attention.

May have to write a new law.

It would seem appropriate in modern America.

 

[MikeK]

Defining Fantasy

Fantasy and the role it plays in serial murder has been an interest of mine for some time.* This fascination began while attempting to understand the motives of serial murderers and reading Sexual Homicide: Patterns and Motives (Ressler et al., 1988).* In my opinion, fantasy is at the core of serial murder, and is one of the driving forces behind these crimes. I am not the first to recognize this concept; in fact, nearly all authors include fantasy within any discussion of serial murder.* However, I became intrigued while reading case studies of several serial murderers that seem to indicate and support exceptions to this theory."

Defining



This is an interesting read on serial killers and how their killings begin with a fantasy.

My only thoughts on the subject of serial killers, such as Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy, is they must be extreme sociopaths. Beyond that I simply can't imagine how sexual pleasure can derive from killing someone -- or some thing.

When I read about George W. Bush's occasional pastime as a boy, which was stuffing firecrackers into frogs, lighting the fuse and tossing the frog to watch it explode (Bush On The Couch, by Dr. Justin Frank), it occurred to me that absent the ability to discharge the energy of his egomaniacal impulses by vicarious participation in his father's political power, by becoming Texas governor, by cruelly asserting himself on others in a number of powerful ways, Bush could likely have emulated a serial killer like Bundy.

I always had such feelings about that man.

 

[whitehall]

"NEW YORK (Reuters) - New York City's accused "cannibal cop" crossed the line from fantasy to reality in plotting to kidnap, cook and eat women, a federal prosecutor told a jury in closing arguments on Thursday.

Defense attorney Julia Gatto countered in summations that her client was playing a fantasy role online, and told jurors "we don't convict human beings because of ugly thoughts ... even if they are police officers."

Jurors begin deliberations in New York cannibal cop case

Nope. He would have crossed the line to reality if he actually cooked a victim. Planning was part of the fantasy.

 

[MikeK]

The fantasy and having the fantasy are not illegal. We have an absolute freedom of thought. It is only when we act upon those thoughts that it can break the law.

Fanacising about having sex with children is not against the law. Collecting pictures of the act or perfoming the act is against the law.

There is a big difference between fantasizing about something and actually doing it.

I'm not so sure about that.

(Excerpt)

Written “depictions” of obscenity?

Later this week, Karen Fletcher of Donora, Pennsylvania, will be sentenced under a plea bargain for having written fictional stories about sex with children. (More here, here and here). Other prosecutors have already indicted writer Frank McCoy for similar writings, depicting the written stories in question as “child pornography.” Whatever value or lack thereof that such writings may have, I think these prosecutions are obvious violations of the First Amendment and totally unwarranted by Supreme Court precedent.


Freespace: Written ?depictions? of obscenity?

(Close)

 

[Circe]

Now I'm learning his wife found the website and became terrified, which is understandable -- unless this is a situation in which she knows he is a freak, has finally become fed up with him and has lowered the boom on him? The important question is, did he ever actually do anything to her to suggest he is inclined to act on his bizarre fantasies?

From what I read, she quite suddenly discovered these plans to tie her into a folded roast position and cook and eat her by getting on his computer, and otherwise had no idea he was into this sort of ideation. And had such intentions about her. I didn't think she found his plans for the other women -- the police found that. She ran screaming out when she found he wanted to cook and eat her.

That's the main reason I'm interested in this case, the concept that one could be married to a man and love him and be a family with him ---------------- and suddenly find he wants to torture you to death and cook and eat you! Well, THAT wasn't in the latest bestseller! --- life is always stranger and more awful than fiction. Because we simply cannot imagine things as outree as reality's outer limits. This is one of those cases.

 

[Circe]

So my question is, if she hadn't (improperly) gotten on his computer, would they have lived happily ever after?

Had a couple children, gone thru a good life, he retired at 65 with honors as a police officer?

Or was he irredeemably a freak and would have gotten worse and worse and maybe turned into an acting-out bondage-torture killer?

On the one hand, I don't think women should be searching their husband's computers. She probably worried why he was spending so much time there rather than in bed with her. Was he having an affair? Would have been her question.

On the other hand, how can one really be married to a man who has fantasies like his about his own wife and many other women? Would anyone think she should have....blown it off and gone on with him?

 

[AmyNation]

I wonder if he watched Hannibal the cannibal as a porn movie?

It is one of those cases where if he is merely fantasizing there is no crime on the books about this fantasy that I know of, however fantasizing about having sex with children is a crime I believe.

May have to write a new law.

No ,it isn't.

 

[MikeK]

Now I'm learning his wife found the website and became terrified, which is understandable -- unless this is a situation in which she knows he is a freak, has finally become fed up with him and has lowered the boom on him? The important question is, did he ever actually do anything to her to suggest he is inclined to act on his bizarre fantasies?

From what I read, she quite suddenly discovered these plans to tie her into a folded roast position and cook and eat her by getting on his computer, and otherwise had no idea he was into this sort of ideation. And had such intentions about her. I didn't think she found his plans for the other women -- the police found that. She ran screaming out when she found he wanted to cook and eat her.

That's the main reason I'm interested in this case, the concept that one could be married to a man and love him and be a family with him ---------------- and suddenly find he wants to torture you to death and cook and eat you! Well, THAT wasn't in the latest bestseller! --- life is always stranger and more awful than fiction. Because we simply cannot imagine things as outree as reality's outer limits. This is one of those cases.

Circe,

It is not uncommon for someone to become so antagonized by a spouse as to harbor murderous thoughts and feelings, and it isn't always the husband. But thoughts and feelings are not actions and they tend to soften and change.

It could be this fellow is, secretly and unknown to his wife, into B&D and he visits a related website. And when his wife did something to enrage him (which spouses are often capable of doing) he expressed his anger on that website in the form of a bizarre B&D fantasy which has no basis or intention in reality.

I don't know how well that hypothesis fits with the rest of the reports, which include his alleged "plotting" to cook and eat persons whose names he retrieved from a police database, etc. I'm simply exploring the possibility this issue is not as insidious as the reports make it sound. I'm just not very convinced by the "cannibal cop" headlines.

I believe this story would have been dismissed if Valle were some ordinary individual. But the fact that he's a cop lends a sensational aspect to it.

 

[Dreamy]

In my opinion, no one in this country should ever be prosecuted for their thoughts. Of course I think some people sharing their darker side online is just a side the internet offers people who wouldn't otherwise share their creepy disturbing thoughts in real life with people they know.

The kidnapping conspiracy charge and misusing a national database is where they nailed him legally as far as the charges.

Hey one can never know for certain what sicko is on the other side of the computer screen on forums etc...

His Mom still loves him.

Molloy: 'Cannibal Cop' Gilberto Valle has lost his wife and daughter, but he still has the support and faith of his mother - NY Daily News

 

[Misty]

I wonder if he watched Hannibal the cannibal as a porn movie?

It is one of those cases where if he is merely fantasizing there is no crime on the books about this fantasy that I know of, however fantasizing about having sex with children is a crime I believe.

May have to write a new law.

No ,it isn't.

I believe if you write on a chat room that you want to have sex with kids, it's a crime.

 

[Misty]

Just to recap. His wife found the site and he wanted to rape, torture, kill, and eat several women including his wife.

She must be so freaked!

 

[AmyNation]

I wonder if he watched Hannibal the cannibal as a porn movie?

It is one of those cases where if he is merely fantasizing there is no crime on the books about this fantasy that I know of, however fantasizing about having sex with children is a crime I believe.

May have to write a new law.

No ,it isn't.

I believe if you write on a chat room that you want to have sex with kids, it's a crime.

If you are attempting to find a child, or engage a child, yes. If you are talking to another adult about the fact that you dream of raping babies, its not.

 

[AmyNation]

Being a pedophile is not illegal. It's acting on your urges that lands you in jail.

 

[Misty]

In my opinion, no one in this country should ever be prosecuted for their thoughts. Of course I think some people sharing their darker side online is just a side the internet offers people who wouldn't otherwise share their creepy disturbing thoughts in real life with people they know.
The kidnapping conspiracy charge and misusing a national database is where phey nailed him legally as far as the charges.
Hey one can never know for certain what sicko is on the other side of the computer screen on forums etc...

His Mom still loves him.
Molloy: 'Cannibal Cop' Gilberto Valle has lost his wife and daughter, but he still has the support and faith of his mother - NY Daily News

His poor mother. I hope he didn't want to eat her too. And he has a daughter. Oh man. That poor girl.

 

[Dreamy]

Just to recap. His wife found the site and he wanted to rape, torture, kill, and eat several women including his wife.

She must be so freaked!

Other than on this website she discovered, I wonder if he showed any of this pretty creepy dark side to her in others ways. Was he just a regular dude except for when he accessed this website? Of course using the database looking for alleged victims is rather disturbing.

 

[Dreamy]

No ,it isn't.

I believe if you write on a chat room that you want to have sex with kids, it's a crime.

If you are attempting to find a child, or engage a child, yes. If you are talking to another adult about the fact that you dream of raping babies, its not.

I suspect you are correct.

If it was illegal I believe NAMBLA would be shut down. Although I did read somewhere that they took their website out of the US.