I may have gotten the impeachment thing all wrong

[Hutch Starskey]

The charge of abuse of power rests on the claim that the President wanted the investigation of the Bidens to advance his chances for reelection, so the only relevant witnesses or documents would have to directly show that was his motivation and clearly, the House was unable to find and such witnesses or documents so all the fuss the Democrats are making is just to extend their political stunt to advance their own political interests.

I agree that the Dems messed up emphasizing the “political interest”point. It’s very hard to prove intent, even when it’s obvious. There should be a process to follow when working with foreign countries to investigate political rivals. If that system isn’t in place then it needs to be set up. If it is in place and Trump didn’t follow it then he should be held accountable. He held up funds to progress this investigation agenda, that was deemed illegal. He used his personal attorney instead of regular channels to pursue his agenda, there could be something wrong there too. And he’s blocked information and spread false narratives in the aftermath which is not OK. There’s a lot of crap there

Trump didn't ever say he held up funds for the investigation. The Democrats made that up. Trump said he held up aid to investigate what other members of the UN were contributing. But don't listen to Trump, listen to what the Democrats concluded because Democrats can read minds. Forget about what Trump said.

Wrong. The Dems didn’t make that up. Trumps own staffers who were in charge of the funds and relations with Ukraine testified to that. I also think you know it’s true, I would push to hard with the Trump never said it argument. We all know the intel he is blocking solidifies what he did and why. It’s going to come out eventually

What a minute, which staffers? I didn't see any. The only person to testify that he or she spoke directly with the President on the matter was ambassador Sondland, and he testified when he spoke to President Trump directly, Trump told him no quid pro quo; he didn't want anything from President Zelensky.

Trump said no quid pro quo after he found out he was being accused of a quid pro quo. You can’t be that gullible can you ray?

You can’t be that gullible can you ray?

Yes

Oh, absolutly.

 

[BrokeLoser]

how do we all know that???

It’s obvious to me, but if you have doubts just wait. Time always brings this stuff out. I have a feeling Trumps lies will be exposed for years to come after his presidency

Ok, so now you are talking about your feelings and not about facts.

True, this post was a prediction not a proclamation of facts. Thought that was obvious

OH BULLSHIT!!!
you comment was "We all know the intel he is blocking solidifies what he did and why. It’s going to come out eventually""

HOW IS THAT A PREDICTION???

Haha, stop stomping your feet... I just see Trump hiding intel that will eventually come out and show that he was lying about his motives for holding those funds. Just a prediction

You're trying way too hard bud...you're making an absolute ass of yourself in public...Remember when you said the same shit about Russian collusion, about Kavanaugh stealing Dr Ford's puss?
Have you ever heard the story of the boy who cried wolf? To summarize, people stopped listening to the boy, they stopped taking him serious...right now, you are that boy.

 

[Hutch Starskey]

That’s not what I’m hearing... they think they have enough. But they also want more, why wouldn’t they want more?. They want the stuff Trump blocked them from getting. Can you blame them?

Yes I can. EVERY president we've had has blocked congress from shit they wanted. Executive Privilege. Look it up. They could have gone to court and the court decides what witnesses/documents Trump's administration has to give up. But they're in a fucking hurry because ELECTION! If he gets elected, they know they are fucked for another 4 years.

They said the evidence was OVERWHELMING. Why would they need more. Look up the definition of OVERWHELM. I posted it above. Go read it. They impeached him based on the evidence they gathered. That should be MORE than enough. They are looking for discovery in a trial. They should have done all of the discovery in the inquiry in the house. That's ass backwards and it's only because more shit keeps coming forward. Kinda like the Kavanaugh confirmation hearing. Dribble, dribble, dribble. They figured they could get around the courts by having the Senate do the job of the house and that's BULLSHIT.

Don't be fooled so easily. Look at it objectively.

Trump wasn't even allowed to defend himself in the House Impeachment Inquiry. Why should he give up anyFUCKINGthing.

Would you participate in your own impeachment if YOU couldn't defend yourself?

You’ve got to be joking!! Yes all presidents invoke privilege, as they should, but none have even come close to what Trump is doing. We aren’t talking about private strategy meetings or national security issues. We are talking about state department business, transcripts, complaints made by staffers to attorneys and a slew of other relevant pieces to this situation.

What are you talking about? DumBama did it during Fast and Furious. He refused to surrender subpoenaed documents to the Republican House.

the Fast and Furious situation stayed in court for 7 years. And you all were bitching about Nancy holding the articles for a couple weeks?! Come on!

Yes, that's the process it's supposed to follow, not impeachment. If there is a disagreement about how EP is used, it goes to the courts like the Republicans did. The Democrats didn't even consider it. Instead, they chose to charge him with obstruction.

EP was never invoked. Not once.

 

[Harry Dresden]

criticizing Trump or any president doesnt mean i hate him or stopped supporting him

it means i am holding him accountable

that's what Schiff and the Dems are doing, my friends

20 percenters holding a 40 percenter accountable....there is a joke in there somewhere...

 

[Nostra]

Impeachment is the resolution for a President that was guilty of committing a misdemeanor, high crime, bribery or treason. Trump did none of these things. Now if you want to go down this road that a crime is not needed, remember your team set is setting that precedent right now, and payback is a bitch.

So, the precedent you are fine with is that any President of the United States can use the powers of the presidency to force and coerce another nation state to spy on a domestic political opponent for personal and political gain. Let's take that further. Your view is that Trump can use the State Department as own personal foreign relations office and the DOJ as his own personal praetorian guard. That is what Trump is doing and apparently you are fine with it. Yeah..don't give me that crap about payback. It is the nation that will be forever scarred by the actions of the maniac in office and those that have enabled him.

The Precedent you want to set is To MAKE AN UNFOUNDED ACCUSATION, and Then Violate Every Civil Right and DUE PROCESS there is to try to Prove Your False Accusation True.

You have no evidence. You cannot even cite a violation of US Code.

That is not the point. Contrary to what you say there is overwhelming evidence that Trump sought a quid pro quo from Zelensky. The point is most Trump supporters don't care he extorted a nation state. You just don't.

Even if Trump did, and even if it could be proven, how is that different than what Joe Biden did?

Don't give that Joe Biden garbage. Biden had the backing of international organizations, the EU when he went after Shokin for corruption. Berisma was not even under investigation when Biden went after Shokin. Berisma was investigated before Hunter Biden got involved with them. Hunter is a sleaze in his personal life, but that is neither here nor there when it comes to Biden's actions against the corrupt Shokin. If I thought Joe Biden was corrupt I would say so. I know you may not believe it but I would.

Link to the EU and "international organizations" sending Quid Pro Joe to extort the Ukranian President.

 

[The Original Tree]

Show us Extortion in The Articles?

What a Hell Bound Liar you are!

How about this?

Joe Biden:

“Fire the prosecutor investigating my son or you don’t get the millions!”

I dont care to defend myself because my personal feelings make no difference to the points I’m debating. Going personal is a weak distraction tactic. You can have the point and think whatever you want. I’m a hypocritical partisan snowflake. Ok now what?

You are right in your assessment. The bottom line is this: Trumpers do not care that Trump sought to abuse his office, extort a nation state and demand a quid pro quo. They will gladly concede that he did so. They contend that Trump did not commit a crime and therefore he cannot be impeached, convicted and removed from office. That is their argument.

So, their reasoning is if it is not a crime and a President can only be impeached for a crime the impeachment proceeding was invalid. (There is considerable evidence in the Federalist Papers among other sources that this view is wrong and in my opinion it is. You don't need a crime to impeach a president).

So what Trumpers are saying is if the President wants to declassify our nuclear codes and give them to his good friend and likely handler, V. Putin, or publish them on the internet, he can do so because the President can declassify information and if he wants to do that, well that is his prerogative. Declassifying intelligence is a presidential prerogative therefor non-impeachable.

But Trumpers go beyond that even.

Trump himself argues that while in office the president is immune form prosecution. That is similar to the laws of immunity they have in Brazil for its president. Trump's attorneys have argued that if Trump shoots someone on fifth avenue, commits rape, mass murder, whatever he is still immune from prosecution while in office.

That is their view.

Welcome to Trumplandia.

Impeachment is the resolution for a President that was guilty of committing a misdemeanor, high crime, bribery or treason. Trump did none of these things. Now if you want to go down this road that a crime is not needed, remember your team set is setting that precedent right now, and payback is a bitch.

So, the precedent you are fine with is that any President of the United States can use the powers of the presidency to force and coerce another nation state to spy on a domestic political opponent for personal and political gain. Let's take that further. Your view is that Trump can use the State Department as own personal foreign relations office and the DOJ as his own personal praetorian guard. That is what Trump is doing and apparently you are fine with it. Yeah..don't give me that crap about payback. It is the nation that will be forever scarred by the actions of the maniac in office and those that have enabled him.

So your view is that we shouldn't investigate corruption on someone who is running for President?

Wow. You sure changed my mind.

What crap. Trump was extorting a nation. Just admit you don’t give a damn instead of posting these inane excuses.

 

[The Original Tree]

Nailed It!

It’s obvious to me, but if you have doubts just wait. Time always brings this stuff out. I have a feeling Trumps lies will be exposed for years to come after his presidency

Ok, so now you are talking about your feelings and not about facts.

True, this post was a prediction not a proclamation of facts. Thought that was obvious

OH BULLSHIT!!!
you comment was "We all know the intel he is blocking solidifies what he did and why. It’s going to come out eventually""

HOW IS THAT A PREDICTION???

Haha, stop stomping your feet... I just see Trump hiding intel that will eventually come out and show that he was lying about his motives for holding those funds. Just a prediction

You're trying way too hard bud...you're making an absolute ass of yourself in public...Remember when you said the same shit about Russian collusion, about Kavanaugh stealing Dr Ford's puss?
Have you ever heard the story of the boy who cried wolf? To summarize, people stopped listening to the boy, they stopped taking him serious...right now, you are that boy.

 

[Nostra]

Since the House held the whole thing behind closed doors, no one saw anything.

Derp... except the 12 or more witnesses that testified on national tv that is.

The ones with nothing but hearsay and hurt feelings?

 

[The Original Tree]

Watching another Muslim trash the President is more interesting than Slade’s defense of his garbage thinly veiled partisan post.

Since the House held the whole thing behind closed doors, no one saw anything.

Derp... except the 12 or more witnesses that testified on national tv that is.

The ones with nothing but hearsay and hurt feelings?

 

[The Purge]

I’ve been pretty outspoken on how bad of an idea I thought this impeachment move would be for our government and our country. I saw the transition from the House to the Republican controlled Senate bringing a change in focus from Trumps actions to Biden corruption. It doesn’t appear that the Republicans are taking that route. I’ve seen the conservative media blitz working overtime on Biden corruption trying to shine the spotlight on that narrative, that tactic is in full swing, but in the capitol it looks like a race to dismissal.

It was rather astonishing to listen to the Republicans dismiss amendment after amendment after clear documentation and witnesses were presented that would add direct supporting material to the accusations.

It is very clear that the Republicans are not interested in finding the truth, seeing the facts, or even allowing the Dems to use the facts to present their case. They seem to just want to defend the president and dismiss the case. It stinks to high heaven and coming from somebody who doesn’t think Trump should be impeached I will say this path that Trump and the Reps are going down is looking more and more like a dirty cover up. When I first heard the Dems use that term it sounded like political hyperbole... After day 1 it’s sounding pretty spot on

Damn, these ABNORMALS are stupid.....

December 31, 2019
TOP 10: President Trump’s Biggest Accomplishments Of 2019

Americans saw plenty of Washington at its worst this year, with one party in Congress obsessed with a partisan impeachment stunt and obstructing progress at every turn. But despite getting no help from the far left, America today is soaring to new heights. Trump’s Biggest Accomplishments

It’s tough to pick only 10 accomplishments from such an extraordinary year, but here are just a few of the biggest things President Donald J. Trump has gotten done for the American people in 2019:

1. The Trump Boom is going strong. The unemployment rate recently hit its lowest mark in 50 years. All told, since President Trump’s election, our economy has added more than 7 million jobs—over half a million in manufacturing alone.
2. The stock market keeps breaking records: The Dow Jones and S&P 500 hit record closes again on Friday.

Read the others at

TOP 10: President Trump’s Biggest Accomplishments of 2019

 

[progressive hunter]

how do we all know that???

It’s obvious to me, but if you have doubts just wait. Time always brings this stuff out. I have a feeling Trumps lies will be exposed for years to come after his presidency

Ok, so now you are talking about your feelings and not about facts.

True, this post was a prediction not a proclamation of facts. Thought that was obvious

OH BULLSHIT!!!
you comment was "We all know the intel he is blocking solidifies what he did and why. It’s going to come out eventually""

HOW IS THAT A PREDICTION???

Haha, stop stomping your feet... I just see Trump hiding intel that will eventually come out and show that he was lying about his motives for holding those funds. Just a prediction

BUT THATS NOT WHAT YOU SAID ABOVE WHEN YOU CALLED IT A PREDICTION,,it was a statement of fact that "WE ALL KNEW IT"

you need to be clear when you spout bullshit opinions,,,

 

[Slade3200]

It’s obvious to me, but if you have doubts just wait. Time always brings this stuff out. I have a feeling Trumps lies will be exposed for years to come after his presidency

Ok, so now you are talking about your feelings and not about facts.

True, this post was a prediction not a proclamation of facts. Thought that was obvious

OH BULLSHIT!!!
you comment was "We all know the intel he is blocking solidifies what he did and why. It’s going to come out eventually""

HOW IS THAT A PREDICTION???

Haha, stop stomping your feet... I just see Trump hiding intel that will eventually come out and show that he was lying about his motives for holding those funds. Just a prediction

You're trying way too hard bud...you're making an absolute ass of yourself in public...Remember when you said the same shit about Russian collusion, about Kavanaugh stealing Dr Ford's puss?
Have you ever heard the story of the boy who cried wolf? To summarize, people stopped listening to the boy, they stopped taking him serious...right now, you are that boy.

Oh no, a bunch of douchebags on a forum are going to think I’m an ass. I don’t know how I will sleep tonight!!!

I didn’t say the same things about Russia and Kav. You’re confusing me with other people.

 

[Nostra]

how do we all know that???

It’s obvious to me, but if you have doubts just wait. Time always brings this stuff out. I have a feeling Trumps lies will be exposed for years to come after his presidency

Ok, so now you are talking about your feelings and not about facts.

True, this post was a prediction not a proclamation of facts. Thought that was obvious

OH BULLSHIT!!!
you comment was "We all know the intel he is blocking solidifies what he did and why. It’s going to come out eventually""

HOW IS THAT A PREDICTION???

Haha, stop stomping your feet... I just see Trump hiding intel that will eventually come out and show that he was lying about his motives for holding those funds. Just a prediction

 

[JLW]

One would think so. If they were innocent that is.

Why aren't you mad at Nazi's Clowns for not doing their job in the House?

They did their job. The Senate is not.

Bullshit. Get an education on how impeachment works.

The House investigates and makes a case, then presents it to the Senate. The Senate then decides to impeach or acquit. The Senate does not investigate.

Get a clue for once in your pathetic life.

The Senate holds the trial. You should know that by now. I even posted a copy of the Constitutional language regarding impeachment. Oh..that's right you gave me a funny for that post...that explains your comments then.

I just said the Senate holds the trial, idiot. The House does the investigation.

Please try to keep up.

You wrote that the “Senate then decides to impeach or acquit’. No, the House does the impeachment, the Senate then holds a trial and then either convicts or acquits.

 

[Ken Mac]

I dont care to defend myself because my personal feelings make no difference to the points I’m debating. Going personal is a weak distraction tactic. You can have the point and think whatever you want. I’m a hypocritical partisan snowflake. Ok now what?

You are right in your assessment. The bottom line is this: Trumpers do not care that Trump sought to abuse his office, extort a nation state and demand a quid pro quo. They will gladly concede that he did so. They contend that Trump did not commit a crime and therefore he cannot be impeached, convicted and removed from office. That is their argument.

So, their reasoning is if it is not a crime and a President can only be impeached for a crime the impeachment proceeding was invalid. (There is considerable evidence in the Federalist Papers among other sources that this view is wrong and in my opinion it is. You don't need a crime to impeach a president).

So what Trumpers are saying is if the President wants to declassify our nuclear codes and give them to his good friend and likely handler, V. Putin, or publish them on the internet, he can do so because the President can declassify information and if he wants to do that, well that is his prerogative. Declassifying intelligence is a presidential prerogative therefor non-impeachable.

But Trumpers go beyond that even.

Trump himself argues that while in office the president is immune form prosecution. That is similar to the laws of immunity they have in Brazil for its president. Trump's attorneys have argued that if Trump shoots someone on fifth avenue, commits rape, mass murder, whatever he is still immune from prosecution while in office.

That is their view.

Welcome to Trumplandia.

Impeachment is the resolution for a President that was guilty of committing a misdemeanor, high crime, bribery or treason. Trump did none of these things. Now if you want to go down this road that a crime is not needed, remember your team set is setting that precedent right now, and payback is a bitch.

So, the precedent you are fine with is that any President of the United States can use the powers of the presidency to force and coerce another nation state to spy on a domestic political opponent for personal and political gain. Let's take that further. Your view is that Trump can use the State Department as own personal foreign relations office and the DOJ as his own personal praetorian guard. That is what Trump is doing and apparently you are fine with it. Yeah..don't give me that crap about payback. It is the nation that will be forever scarred by the actions of the maniac in office and those that have enabled him.

So your view is that we shouldn't investigate corruption on someone who is running for President?

Wow. You sure changed my mind.

What crap. Trump was extorting a nation. Just admit you don’t give a damn instead of posting these inane excuses.

I've already stated as such. You don't read my posts either, huh?

 

[Nostra]

I dont care to defend myself because my personal feelings make no difference to the points I’m debating. Going personal is a weak distraction tactic. You can have the point and think whatever you want. I’m a hypocritical partisan snowflake. Ok now what?

You are right in your assessment. The bottom line is this: Trumpers do not care that Trump sought to abuse his office, extort a nation state and demand a quid pro quo. They will gladly concede that he did so. They contend that Trump did not commit a crime and therefore he cannot be impeached, convicted and removed from office. That is their argument.

So, their reasoning is if it is not a crime and a President can only be impeached for a crime the impeachment proceeding was invalid. (There is considerable evidence in the Federalist Papers among other sources that this view is wrong and in my opinion it is. You don't need a crime to impeach a president).

So what Trumpers are saying is if the President wants to declassify our nuclear codes and give them to his good friend and likely handler, V. Putin, or publish them on the internet, he can do so because the President can declassify information and if he wants to do that, well that is his prerogative. Declassifying intelligence is a presidential prerogative therefor non-impeachable.

But Trumpers go beyond that even.

Trump himself argues that while in office the president is immune form prosecution. That is similar to the laws of immunity they have in Brazil for its president. Trump's attorneys have argued that if Trump shoots someone on fifth avenue, commits rape, mass murder, whatever he is still immune from prosecution while in office.

That is their view.

Welcome to Trumplandia.

Impeachment is the resolution for a President that was guilty of committing a misdemeanor, high crime, bribery or treason. Trump did none of these things. Now if you want to go down this road that a crime is not needed, remember your team set is setting that precedent right now, and payback is a bitch.

So, the precedent you are fine with is that any President of the United States can use the powers of the presidency to force and coerce another nation state to spy on a domestic political opponent for personal and political gain. Let's take that further. Your view is that Trump can use the State Department as own personal foreign relations office and the DOJ as his own personal praetorian guard. That is what Trump is doing and apparently you are fine with it. Yeah..don't give me that crap about payback. It is the nation that will be forever scarred by the actions of the maniac in office and those that have enabled him.

So your view is that we shouldn't investigate corruption on someone who is running for President?

Wow. You sure changed my mind.

What crap. Trump was extorting a nation. Just admit you don’t give a damn instead of posting these inane excuses.

Link?

 

[progressive hunter]

One would think so. If they were innocent that is.

Why aren't you mad at Nazi's Clowns for not doing their job in the House?

They did their job. The Senate is not.

Bullshit. Get an education on how impeachment works.

The House investigates and makes a case, then presents it to the Senate. The Senate then decides to impeach or acquit. The Senate does not investigate.

Get a clue for once in your pathetic life.

The Senate holds the trial. You should know that by now. I even posted a copy of the Constitutional language regarding impeachment. Oh..that's right you gave me a funny for that post...that explains your comments then.

I just said the Senate holds the trial, idiot. The House does the investigation.

Please try to keep up.

Dont you think youre asking a lot of him?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I’ve been pretty outspoken on how bad of an idea I thought this impeachment move would be for our government and our country. I saw the transition from the House to the Republican controlled Senate bringing a change in focus from Trumps actions to Biden corruption. It doesn’t appear that the Republicans are taking that route. I’ve seen the conservative media blitz working overtime on Biden corruption trying to shine the spotlight on that narrative, that tactic is in full swing, but in the capitol it looks like a race to dismissal.

It was rather astonishing to listen to the Republicans dismiss amendment after amendment after clear documentation and witnesses were presented that would add direct supporting material to the accusations.

It is very clear that the Republicans are not interested in finding the truth, seeing the facts, or even allowing the Dems to use the facts to present their case. They seem to just want to defend the president and dismiss the case. It stinks to high heaven and coming from somebody who doesn’t think Trump should be impeached I will say this path that Trump and the Reps are going down is looking more and more like a dirty cover up. When I first heard the Dems use that term it sounded like political hyperbole... After day 1 it’s sounding pretty spot on

I thought that the House was presenting overwhelming and incontrovertible evidence....wtf.

How can McConnell cover that up? That should be impossible

Are you saying that the House presented two Articles: 1. Orange Man Bad and 2.Bad Orange Man hurt our feelings with NO EVIDENCE for either?

 

[The Original Tree]

If you Google your name it takes you to an Astronomy page with a picture of Uranus!

Ok, so now you are talking about your feelings and not about facts.

True, this post was a prediction not a proclamation of facts. Thought that was obvious

OH BULLSHIT!!!
you comment was "We all know the intel he is blocking solidifies what he did and why. It’s going to come out eventually""

HOW IS THAT A PREDICTION???

Haha, stop stomping your feet... I just see Trump hiding intel that will eventually come out and show that he was lying about his motives for holding those funds. Just a prediction

You're trying way too hard bud...you're making an absolute ass of yourself in public...Remember when you said the same shit about Russian collusion, about Kavanaugh stealing Dr Ford's puss?
Have you ever heard the story of the boy who cried wolf? To summarize, people stopped listening to the boy, they stopped taking him serious...right now, you are that boy.

Oh no, a bunch of douchebags on a forum are going to think I’m an ass. I don’t know how I will sleep tonight!!!

I didn’t say the same things about Russia and Kav. You’re confusing me with other people.

 

[Nostra]

Yes I can. EVERY president we've had has blocked congress from shit they wanted. Executive Privilege. Look it up. They could have gone to court and the court decides what witnesses/documents Trump's administration has to give up. But they're in a fucking hurry because ELECTION! If he gets elected, they know they are fucked for another 4 years.

They said the evidence was OVERWHELMING. Why would they need more. Look up the definition of OVERWHELM. I posted it above. Go read it. They impeached him based on the evidence they gathered. That should be MORE than enough. They are looking for discovery in a trial. They should have done all of the discovery in the inquiry in the house. That's ass backwards and it's only because more shit keeps coming forward. Kinda like the Kavanaugh confirmation hearing. Dribble, dribble, dribble. They figured they could get around the courts by having the Senate do the job of the house and that's BULLSHIT.

Don't be fooled so easily. Look at it objectively.

Trump wasn't even allowed to defend himself in the House Impeachment Inquiry. Why should he give up anyFUCKINGthing.

Would you participate in your own impeachment if YOU couldn't defend yourself?

You’ve got to be joking!! Yes all presidents invoke privilege, as they should, but none have even come close to what Trump is doing. We aren’t talking about private strategy meetings or national security issues. We are talking about state department business, transcripts, complaints made by staffers to attorneys and a slew of other relevant pieces to this situation.

What are you talking about? DumBama did it during Fast and Furious. He refused to surrender subpoenaed documents to the Republican House.

the Fast and Furious situation stayed in court for 7 years. And you all were bitching about Nancy holding the articles for a couple weeks?! Come on!

Yes, that's the process it's supposed to follow, not impeachment. If there is a disagreement about how EP is used, it goes to the courts like the Republicans did. The Democrats didn't even consider it. Instead, they chose to charge him with obstruction.

EP was never invoked. Not once.

The subpoenas were not valid as the House never held the required vote to begin impeachment proceedings.

You lose again.