I was wrong... the health of the mother is not valid for an abortion.

[Thinker101]

Watching Schumer threaten SCOTUS judges if they rule against Roe VS Wade made me wonder about my own knowledge regarding my position... abortion OK only in case of health of money, rape or incest.
I am wrong!
Even in 1981, former Surgeon General of the United States Dr. C. Everett Koop said, “The fact of the matter is that abortion as a necessity to save the life of the mother is so rare as to be nonexistent.”

But as former abortionist Dr. Anthony Levatino has affirmed on the record:
During my time at Albany Medical Center I managed hundreds of such cases by “terminating” pregnancies to save mother’s lives. In all those cases, the number of unborn children that I had to deliberately kill was zero.
What Percentage of Abortions Are Medically Necessary?

But the biased MSM has never shared that with us.
Consequently since 1973 over 61,781,054 lives were destroyed.
Think about that...what baby among those 62 million could have discovered cures for cancer? Or made other fantastic contributions...all because a woman wasn't responsible enough.
Number of Abortions in US & Worldwide - Number of abortions since 1973

Just consider that: 46% of all abortions were performed on women who had one or more abortions before!
Think about it... There is an excuse for first timers... but 2nd, or 3 or more previous abortions?

Planned Parenthood Turns 99 Today: Has Killed 7 Million Babies in Abortions

Abortion is between a woman, her Doctor, and her God. It's none of my business and certainly not yours. Period!

Great, then the woman, her doctor or her God ought to pay for it...dumbass.

No. You will pay your taxes or go to prison for tax evasion. Your tax money will be spent on what the people want not what you want.

You're fricken dreaming.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Watching Schumer threaten SCOTUS judges if they rule against Roe VS Wade made me wonder about my own knowledge regarding my position... abortion OK only in case of health of money, rape or incest.
I am wrong!
Even in 1981, former Surgeon General of the United States Dr. C. Everett Koop said, “The fact of the matter is that abortion as a necessity to save the life of the mother is so rare as to be nonexistent.”

But as former abortionist Dr. Anthony Levatino has affirmed on the record:
During my time at Albany Medical Center I managed hundreds of such cases by “terminating” pregnancies to save mother’s lives. In all those cases, the number of unborn children that I had to deliberately kill was zero.
What Percentage of Abortions Are Medically Necessary?

But the biased MSM has never shared that with us.
Consequently since 1973 over 61,781,054 lives were destroyed.
Think about that...what baby among those 62 million could have discovered cures for cancer? Or made other fantastic contributions...all because a woman wasn't responsible enough.
Number of Abortions in US & Worldwide - Number of abortions since 1973

Just consider that: 46% of all abortions were performed on women who had one or more abortions before!
Think about it... There is an excuse for first timers... but 2nd, or 3 or more previous abortions?

Planned Parenthood Turns 99 Today: Has Killed 7 Million Babies in Abortions

Abortion is between a woman, her Doctor, and her God. It's none of my business and certainly not yours. Period!

And it’s certainly not the business of government.

 

[pknopp]

This is from another thread discussing abortion that I posted earlier which relates to this thread.... I'd love to hear what Christians or Jews think of the Bible passage at the end??

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A few days ago, one of our members posted scripture, from the book of Numbers, regarding abortion.... that I was actually shocked to read.... I did not know this topic even existed in the Bible...

In this passage, if you believe the Bible is God written, or the Word of God, written down by Man....

God's Law, is advocating abortion in the case of marital infidelity, or perceived marital infidelity by the wife with another man....

If the husband suspects the wife had sexual intercourse with another man and is overcome with jealousy, then he was suppose to bring his wife, before the Priest, and the Priest gave her a concoction to drink called Bitter Water, that forced a Miscarriage on her.

THAT IS ABORTION

This blew my mind! I found myself contemplating why would God, give permission for this alleged pregnant woman.... being forced in to killing her baby to be, just because it could have been, another father, not even known for certain that the wife was cheating, or the baby was not the husband's child?

And why would God have the Priest, use an abortion concoction of Bitter Water, on this woman, and this baby to be.... if it were MURDER? Or killing a baby? Was it not considered a human life yet? was it not considered a baby yet?

What was the purpose of this forced miscarriage, abortion?

Was it because the husband should not be forced to financially take care of this child that is possibly not his, until adulthood? Was it because the child would be hated by the husband and not be given a healthy and stable childhood?

I am baffled!


Numbers 5:11-31 New International Version (NIV)
The Test for an Unfaithful Wife
11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephaha]">[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curseb]">[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorialc]">[c] offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

29 “‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and makes herself impure while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the Lord and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’”

If God himself came down and stated "I have no problem with abortion", I would still be pro-life.

I do not believe anyone in any circumstance should have the right to take the life of another outside of direct self defense.

As for the passage, quess what happened in every instance? She was declared clean as no amount of water will cause an abortion. Not even "bitter water".

 

[Care4all]

This is from another thread discussing abortion that I posted earlier which relates to this thread.... I'd love to hear what Christians or Jews think of the Bible passage at the end??

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A few days ago, one of our members posted scripture, from the book of Numbers, regarding abortion.... that I was actually shocked to read.... I did not know this topic even existed in the Bible...

In this passage, if you believe the Bible is God written, or the Word of God, written down by Man....

God's Law, is advocating abortion in the case of marital infidelity, or perceived marital infidelity by the wife with another man....

If the husband suspects the wife had sexual intercourse with another man and is overcome with jealousy, then he was suppose to bring his wife, before the Priest, and the Priest gave her a concoction to drink called Bitter Water, that forced a Miscarriage on her.

THAT IS ABORTION

This blew my mind! I found myself contemplating why would God, give permission for this alleged pregnant woman.... being forced in to killing her baby to be, just because it could have been, another father, not even known for certain that the wife was cheating, or the baby was not the husband's child?

And why would God have the Priest, use an abortion concoction of Bitter Water, on this woman, and this baby to be.... if it were MURDER? Or killing a baby? Was it not considered a human life yet? was it not considered a baby yet?

What was the purpose of this forced miscarriage, abortion?

Was it because the husband should not be forced to financially take care of this child that is possibly not his, until adulthood? Was it because the child would be hated by the husband and not be given a healthy and stable childhood?

I am baffled!


Numbers 5:11-31 New International Version (NIV)
The Test for an Unfaithful Wife
11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephaha]">[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curseb]">[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorialc]">[c] offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

29 “‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and makes herself impure while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the Lord and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’”

If God himself came down and stated "I have no problem with abortion", I would still be pro-life.

I do not believe anyone in any circumstance should have the right to take the life of another outside of direct self defense.

As for the passage, quess what happened in every instance? She was declared clean as no amount of water will cause an abortion. Not even "bitter water".

that's simply not true though.... it is the most common abortion in our History of abortions, drinking a concoction to make you miscarry... is how abortions were performed when doctors were not a dime a dozen... even in to the 1800's in this nation, women...mostly married with 7 to 10 kids in tow, would drink the Bitter Water, before the quickening month.... and this form of abortion has returned again in popularity, only chemical form via prescription, called Plan B...

 

[Dana7360]

13000 a year? Sure thing, who decided they were medically needed? Why the abortion doctors did of course.

Who should decide? A bunch of strange men who know nothing about them?

A certified Doctor that has no business associated with abortions.

Why would having "no business associated with abortions" be a better candidate? Why would this person be more trusted by a woman? The doctors in Ireland let a woman die. The loss of her life led to the change of law in Ireland.

in the case of late term abortion a doctor who has nothing to do with abortion has already told the woman she needs an abortion.

Her obstetrician has told her. That doctor has nothing to do with abortion.

The demand that a doctor who has nothing to do with abortion has already been met.

No woman who is that far along goes to an abortion doctor without being referred to one by an obstetrician first.

No woman goes to an abortion doctor in her last trimester unless there is very detailed documentation of the life threatening condition or the extremely serious problem with the fetus. No abortion doctor does that. That has already been factually documented by an obstetrician.

What condition might this be?

My cousin's wife was in the last trimester of a very planned and wanted pregnancy. The cord got wrapped around the neck of the fetus and strangled it. She had to have a late term abortion to save her life.

If that fetus had stayed in her until it spontaneously aborted, a bacteria called paratinitus will grow and kill her. If it's caught soon enough she will be lucky and not die but will be left infertile. So to save her life and preserve her fertility she had a late term abortion. In fact she had what was called a partial birth abortion. This was in the 90s. If she had not had that abortion she would have either died or been left infertile and her 2 children wouldn't have been born.

On the other end of pregnancy, ectopic pregnancy has only 2 outcomes. Either she has an abortion or the woman dies. If she's lucky and can get to a hospital quick enough she might live but will be left infertile for life.

There are so many life threatening conditions that can force a pregnancy to be terminated in the last trimester. It doesn't happen often. It's only like 1% of all abortions performed in America. For the reason that Roe V. Wade makes abortion past viability illegal with the exception of the life or health of the woman being in jeopardy or there's a very serious problem with the fetus.

Such as what happened to my best friend's sister in law. The fetus didn't have a brain. That's not found until late in the pregnancy. An abortion is usually performed. Or what happened to another friend of mine. She had been trying to get pregnant for years. She finally did but found out late in the second trimester that the fetus had severe spina bifida. It wouldn't have lived long past birth. She had to travel to another state for the abortion because there is no provider in my state that performed abortions that late in pregnancy.

If you actually wanted to know about abortions that save lives all you have to do is a simple google search. There are many ways to learn about the subject if you wanted to know about it.

 

[pknopp]

This is from another thread discussing abortion that I posted earlier which relates to this thread.... I'd love to hear what Christians or Jews think of the Bible passage at the end??

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A few days ago, one of our members posted scripture, from the book of Numbers, regarding abortion.... that I was actually shocked to read.... I did not know this topic even existed in the Bible...

In this passage, if you believe the Bible is God written, or the Word of God, written down by Man....

God's Law, is advocating abortion in the case of marital infidelity, or perceived marital infidelity by the wife with another man....

If the husband suspects the wife had sexual intercourse with another man and is overcome with jealousy, then he was suppose to bring his wife, before the Priest, and the Priest gave her a concoction to drink called Bitter Water, that forced a Miscarriage on her.

THAT IS ABORTION

This blew my mind! I found myself contemplating why would God, give permission for this alleged pregnant woman.... being forced in to killing her baby to be, just because it could have been, another father, not even known for certain that the wife was cheating, or the baby was not the husband's child?

And why would God have the Priest, use an abortion concoction of Bitter Water, on this woman, and this baby to be.... if it were MURDER? Or killing a baby? Was it not considered a human life yet? was it not considered a baby yet?

What was the purpose of this forced miscarriage, abortion?

Was it because the husband should not be forced to financially take care of this child that is possibly not his, until adulthood? Was it because the child would be hated by the husband and not be given a healthy and stable childhood?

I am baffled!


Numbers 5:11-31 New International Version (NIV)
The Test for an Unfaithful Wife
11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephaha]">[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curseb]">[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorialc]">[c] offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

29 “‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and makes herself impure while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the Lord and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’”

If God himself came down and stated "I have no problem with abortion", I would still be pro-life.

I do not believe anyone in any circumstance should have the right to take the life of another outside of direct self defense.

As for the passage, quess what happened in every instance? She was declared clean as no amount of water will cause an abortion. Not even "bitter water".

that's simply not true though.... it is the most common abortion in our History of abortions, drinking a concoction to make you miscarry... is how abortions were performed when doctors were not a dime a dozen... even in to the 1800's in this nation, women...mostly married with 7 to 10 kids in tow, would drink the Bitter Water, before the quickening month.... and this form of abortion has returned again in popularity, only chemical form via prescription, called Plan B...

LOL....plan B is not something one could just conjure up. Medical abortions became the norm because nothing else worked.

Women in the past didn't even know they were pregnant during the time Plan B works.

 

[pknopp]

Who should decide? A bunch of strange men who know nothing about them?

A certified Doctor that has no business associated with abortions.

Why would having "no business associated with abortions" be a better candidate? Why would this person be more trusted by a woman? The doctors in Ireland let a woman die. The loss of her life led to the change of law in Ireland.

in the case of late term abortion a doctor who has nothing to do with abortion has already told the woman she needs an abortion.

Her obstetrician has told her. That doctor has nothing to do with abortion.

The demand that a doctor who has nothing to do with abortion has already been met.

No woman who is that far along goes to an abortion doctor without being referred to one by an obstetrician first.

No woman goes to an abortion doctor in her last trimester unless there is very detailed documentation of the life threatening condition or the extremely serious problem with the fetus. No abortion doctor does that. That has already been factually documented by an obstetrician.

What condition might this be?

My cousin's wife was in the last trimester of a very planned and wanted pregnancy. The cord got wrapped around the neck of the fetus and strangled it. She had to have a late term abortion to save her life.

If that fetus had stayed in her until it spontaneously aborted, a bacteria called paratinitus will grow and kill her. If it's caught soon enough she will be lucky and not die but will be left infertile. So to save her life and preserve her fertility she had a late term abortion. In fact she had what was called a partial birth abortion. This was in the 90s. If she had not had that abortion she would have either died or been left infertile and her 2 children wouldn't have been born.

On the other end of pregnancy, ectopic pregnancy has only 2 outcomes. Either she has an abortion or the woman dies. If she's lucky and can get to a hospital quick enough she might live but will be left infertile for life.

There are so many life threatening conditions that can force a pregnancy to be terminated in the last trimester. It doesn't happen often. It's only like 1% of all abortions performed in America. For the reason that Roe V. Wade makes abortion past viability illegal with the exception of the life or health of the woman being in jeopardy or there's a very serious problem with the fetus.

Such as what happened to my best friend's sister in law. The fetus didn't have a brain. That's not found until late in the pregnancy. An abortion is usually performed. Or what happened to another friend of mine. She had been trying to get pregnant for years. She finally did but found out late in the second trimester that the fetus had severe spina bifida. It wouldn't have lived long past birth. She had to travel to another state for the abortion because there is no provider in my state that performed abortions that late in pregnancy.

If you actually wanted to know about abortions that save lives all you have to do is a simple google search. There are many ways to learn about the subject if you wanted to know about it.

Removing a dead fetus is not an abortion nor anything anyone is trying to stop.

 

[Asclepias]

A certified Doctor that has no business associated with abortions.

Why would having "no business associated with abortions" be a better candidate? Why would this person be more trusted by a woman? The doctors in Ireland let a woman die. The loss of her life led to the change of law in Ireland.

in the case of late term abortion a doctor who has nothing to do with abortion has already told the woman she needs an abortion.

Her obstetrician has told her. That doctor has nothing to do with abortion.

The demand that a doctor who has nothing to do with abortion has already been met.

No woman who is that far along goes to an abortion doctor without being referred to one by an obstetrician first.

No woman goes to an abortion doctor in her last trimester unless there is very detailed documentation of the life threatening condition or the extremely serious problem with the fetus. No abortion doctor does that. That has already been factually documented by an obstetrician.

What condition might this be?

My cousin's wife was in the last trimester of a very planned and wanted pregnancy. The cord got wrapped around the neck of the fetus and strangled it. She had to have a late term abortion to save her life.

If that fetus had stayed in her until it spontaneously aborted, a bacteria called paratinitus will grow and kill her. If it's caught soon enough she will be lucky and not die but will be left infertile. So to save her life and preserve her fertility she had a late term abortion. In fact she had what was called a partial birth abortion. This was in the 90s. If she had not had that abortion she would have either died or been left infertile and her 2 children wouldn't have been born.

On the other end of pregnancy, ectopic pregnancy has only 2 outcomes. Either she has an abortion or the woman dies. If she's lucky and can get to a hospital quick enough she might live but will be left infertile for life.

There are so many life threatening conditions that can force a pregnancy to be terminated in the last trimester. It doesn't happen often. It's only like 1% of all abortions performed in America. For the reason that Roe V. Wade makes abortion past viability illegal with the exception of the life or health of the woman being in jeopardy or there's a very serious problem with the fetus.

Such as what happened to my best friend's sister in law. The fetus didn't have a brain. That's not found until late in the pregnancy. An abortion is usually performed. Or what happened to another friend of mine. She had been trying to get pregnant for years. She finally did but found out late in the second trimester that the fetus had severe spina bifida. It wouldn't have lived long past birth. She had to travel to another state for the abortion because there is no provider in my state that performed abortions that late in pregnancy.

If you actually wanted to know about abortions that save lives all you have to do is a simple google search. There are many ways to learn about the subject if you wanted to know about it.

Removing a dead fetus is not an abortion nor anything anyone is trying to stop.

Thats what you dont seem to get. You arent going to stop abortions by making them illegal. You'll just kill more women if you succeed in making it illegal.

 

[Asclepias]

BTW today is International Womens Day.

 

[Care4all]

This is from another thread discussing abortion that I posted earlier which relates to this thread.... I'd love to hear what Christians or Jews think of the Bible passage at the end??

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A few days ago, one of our members posted scripture, from the book of Numbers, regarding abortion.... that I was actually shocked to read.... I did not know this topic even existed in the Bible...

In this passage, if you believe the Bible is God written, or the Word of God, written down by Man....

God's Law, is advocating abortion in the case of marital infidelity, or perceived marital infidelity by the wife with another man....

If the husband suspects the wife had sexual intercourse with another man and is overcome with jealousy, then he was suppose to bring his wife, before the Priest, and the Priest gave her a concoction to drink called Bitter Water, that forced a Miscarriage on her.

THAT IS ABORTION

This blew my mind! I found myself contemplating why would God, give permission for this alleged pregnant woman.... being forced in to killing her baby to be, just because it could have been, another father, not even known for certain that the wife was cheating, or the baby was not the husband's child?

And why would God have the Priest, use an abortion concoction of Bitter Water, on this woman, and this baby to be.... if it were MURDER? Or killing a baby? Was it not considered a human life yet? was it not considered a baby yet?

What was the purpose of this forced miscarriage, abortion?

Was it because the husband should not be forced to financially take care of this child that is possibly not his, until adulthood? Was it because the child would be hated by the husband and not be given a healthy and stable childhood?

I am baffled!


Numbers 5:11-31 New International Version (NIV)
The Test for an Unfaithful Wife
11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephaha]">[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curseb]">[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorialc]">[c] offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

29 “‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and makes herself impure while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the Lord and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’”

If God himself came down and stated "I have no problem with abortion", I would still be pro-life.

I do not believe anyone in any circumstance should have the right to take the life of another outside of direct self defense.

As for the passage, quess what happened in every instance? She was declared clean as no amount of water will cause an abortion. Not even "bitter water".

that's simply not true though.... it is the most common abortion in our History of abortions, drinking a concoction to make you miscarry... is how abortions were performed when doctors were not a dime a dozen... even in to the 1800's in this nation, women...mostly married with 7 to 10 kids in tow, would drink the Bitter Water, before the quickening month.... and this form of abortion has returned again in popularity, only chemical form via prescription, called Plan B...

LOL....plan B is not something one could just conjure up. Medical abortions became the norm because nothing else worked.

Women in the past didn't even know they were pregnant during the time Plan B works.

plan B is for the early weeks of pregnancy, back in the USA before govt even got involved in a family's personal business, egged on by Christian Church movements,

the bitter water, that caused the curse....the curse is the term for menstrual bleeding or the blood from a miscarriage I believe, and yes... it worked or even mostly worked, if you drank it before you reached quickening....when the baby leaps, withing womb.... which is before about 18 to 20 weeks....

regardless, the BIBLE in these verses, is condoning the killing of an unborn child through a FORCED miscarriage, which IS Abortion....

my questions on this, are in my original post on it above... I'd like to know if you can take a shot at answering them, in your opinion?

 

[Dana7360]

This is from another thread discussing abortion that I posted earlier which relates to this thread.... I'd love to hear what Christians or Jews think of the Bible passage at the end??

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A few days ago, one of our members posted scripture, from the book of Numbers, regarding abortion.... that I was actually shocked to read.... I did not know this topic even existed in the Bible...

In this passage, if you believe the Bible is God written, or the Word of God, written down by Man....

God's Law, is advocating abortion in the case of marital infidelity, or perceived marital infidelity by the wife with another man....

If the husband suspects the wife had sexual intercourse with another man and is overcome with jealousy, then he was suppose to bring his wife, before the Priest, and the Priest gave her a concoction to drink called Bitter Water, that forced a Miscarriage on her.

THAT IS ABORTION

This blew my mind! I found myself contemplating why would God, give permission for this alleged pregnant woman.... being forced in to killing her baby to be, just because it could have been, another father, not even known for certain that the wife was cheating, or the baby was not the husband's child?

And why would God have the Priest, use an abortion concoction of Bitter Water, on this woman, and this baby to be.... if it were MURDER? Or killing a baby? Was it not considered a human life yet? was it not considered a baby yet?

What was the purpose of this forced miscarriage, abortion?

Was it because the husband should not be forced to financially take care of this child that is possibly not his, until adulthood? Was it because the child would be hated by the husband and not be given a healthy and stable childhood?

I am baffled!


Numbers 5:11-31 New International Version (NIV)
The Test for an Unfaithful Wife
11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephaha]">[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curseb]">[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorialc]">[c] offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

29 “‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and makes herself impure while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the Lord and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’”

I was part of the jesus freak movement in the early 70s. For those who don't know what that was look it up.

I've read the bible from cover to cover many times. Including the old testament. I've known that the christian god doesn't believe life starts at conception nor does the christian god believe abortion is wrong since I first read that book in the 1970s. Numbers clearly tells how to perform an abortion. Genesis clearly says life starts when air is taken through the nose.

The so called christians don't even know what is in that book they weld as a weapon against anyone who doesn't agree with their views. I wouldn't be surprised if none of them have actually read that book.

 

[pknopp]

Why would having "no business associated with abortions" be a better candidate? Why would this person be more trusted by a woman? The doctors in Ireland let a woman die. The loss of her life led to the change of law in Ireland.

in the case of late term abortion a doctor who has nothing to do with abortion has already told the woman she needs an abortion.

Her obstetrician has told her. That doctor has nothing to do with abortion.

The demand that a doctor who has nothing to do with abortion has already been met.

No woman who is that far along goes to an abortion doctor without being referred to one by an obstetrician first.

No woman goes to an abortion doctor in her last trimester unless there is very detailed documentation of the life threatening condition or the extremely serious problem with the fetus. No abortion doctor does that. That has already been factually documented by an obstetrician.

What condition might this be?

My cousin's wife was in the last trimester of a very planned and wanted pregnancy. The cord got wrapped around the neck of the fetus and strangled it. She had to have a late term abortion to save her life.

If that fetus had stayed in her until it spontaneously aborted, a bacteria called paratinitus will grow and kill her. If it's caught soon enough she will be lucky and not die but will be left infertile. So to save her life and preserve her fertility she had a late term abortion. In fact she had what was called a partial birth abortion. This was in the 90s. If she had not had that abortion she would have either died or been left infertile and her 2 children wouldn't have been born.

On the other end of pregnancy, ectopic pregnancy has only 2 outcomes. Either she has an abortion or the woman dies. If she's lucky and can get to a hospital quick enough she might live but will be left infertile for life.

There are so many life threatening conditions that can force a pregnancy to be terminated in the last trimester. It doesn't happen often. It's only like 1% of all abortions performed in America. For the reason that Roe V. Wade makes abortion past viability illegal with the exception of the life or health of the woman being in jeopardy or there's a very serious problem with the fetus.

Such as what happened to my best friend's sister in law. The fetus didn't have a brain. That's not found until late in the pregnancy. An abortion is usually performed. Or what happened to another friend of mine. She had been trying to get pregnant for years. She finally did but found out late in the second trimester that the fetus had severe spina bifida. It wouldn't have lived long past birth. She had to travel to another state for the abortion because there is no provider in my state that performed abortions that late in pregnancy.

If you actually wanted to know about abortions that save lives all you have to do is a simple google search. There are many ways to learn about the subject if you wanted to know about it.

Removing a dead fetus is not an abortion nor anything anyone is trying to stop.

Thats what you dont seem to get. You arent going to stop abortions by making them illegal. You'll just kill more women if you succeed in making it illegal.

I never said you would. Ive said many times it wouldn't stop abortions nor as a country will be ever completely ban them.

Just the way it is.

 

[Care4all]

A certified Doctor that has no business associated with abortions.

Why would having "no business associated with abortions" be a better candidate? Why would this person be more trusted by a woman? The doctors in Ireland let a woman die. The loss of her life led to the change of law in Ireland.

in the case of late term abortion a doctor who has nothing to do with abortion has already told the woman she needs an abortion.

Her obstetrician has told her. That doctor has nothing to do with abortion.

The demand that a doctor who has nothing to do with abortion has already been met.

No woman who is that far along goes to an abortion doctor without being referred to one by an obstetrician first.

No woman goes to an abortion doctor in her last trimester unless there is very detailed documentation of the life threatening condition or the extremely serious problem with the fetus. No abortion doctor does that. That has already been factually documented by an obstetrician.

What condition might this be?

My cousin's wife was in the last trimester of a very planned and wanted pregnancy. The cord got wrapped around the neck of the fetus and strangled it. She had to have a late term abortion to save her life.

If that fetus had stayed in her until it spontaneously aborted, a bacteria called paratinitus will grow and kill her. If it's caught soon enough she will be lucky and not die but will be left infertile. So to save her life and preserve her fertility she had a late term abortion. In fact she had what was called a partial birth abortion. This was in the 90s. If she had not had that abortion she would have either died or been left infertile and her 2 children wouldn't have been born.

On the other end of pregnancy, ectopic pregnancy has only 2 outcomes. Either she has an abortion or the woman dies. If she's lucky and can get to a hospital quick enough she might live but will be left infertile for life.

There are so many life threatening conditions that can force a pregnancy to be terminated in the last trimester. It doesn't happen often. It's only like 1% of all abortions performed in America. For the reason that Roe V. Wade makes abortion past viability illegal with the exception of the life or health of the woman being in jeopardy or there's a very serious problem with the fetus.

Such as what happened to my best friend's sister in law. The fetus didn't have a brain. That's not found until late in the pregnancy. An abortion is usually performed. Or what happened to another friend of mine. She had been trying to get pregnant for years. She finally did but found out late in the second trimester that the fetus had severe spina bifida. It wouldn't have lived long past birth. She had to travel to another state for the abortion because there is no provider in my state that performed abortions that late in pregnancy.

If you actually wanted to know about abortions that save lives all you have to do is a simple google search. There are many ways to learn about the subject if you wanted to know about it.

Removing a dead fetus is not an abortion nor anything anyone is trying to stop.

but you would stop it, with banning third trimester abortions, or delay it by getting 2nd and third opinions bull crud, while the parents, already in agony from losing their child that they wanted, are put at risk while prolonging the inevitable, and putting the mother's health at risk.

Honestly, these private decisions ARE NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. Who in the heck do you think you are....?

 

[Dana7360]

This is from another thread discussing abortion that I posted earlier which relates to this thread.... I'd love to hear what Christians or Jews think of the Bible passage at the end??

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A few days ago, one of our members posted scripture, from the book of Numbers, regarding abortion.... that I was actually shocked to read.... I did not know this topic even existed in the Bible...

In this passage, if you believe the Bible is God written, or the Word of God, written down by Man....

God's Law, is advocating abortion in the case of marital infidelity, or perceived marital infidelity by the wife with another man....

If the husband suspects the wife had sexual intercourse with another man and is overcome with jealousy, then he was suppose to bring his wife, before the Priest, and the Priest gave her a concoction to drink called Bitter Water, that forced a Miscarriage on her.

THAT IS ABORTION

This blew my mind! I found myself contemplating why would God, give permission for this alleged pregnant woman.... being forced in to killing her baby to be, just because it could have been, another father, not even known for certain that the wife was cheating, or the baby was not the husband's child?

And why would God have the Priest, use an abortion concoction of Bitter Water, on this woman, and this baby to be.... if it were MURDER? Or killing a baby? Was it not considered a human life yet? was it not considered a baby yet?

What was the purpose of this forced miscarriage, abortion?

Was it because the husband should not be forced to financially take care of this child that is possibly not his, until adulthood? Was it because the child would be hated by the husband and not be given a healthy and stable childhood?

I am baffled!


Numbers 5:11-31 New International Version (NIV)
The Test for an Unfaithful Wife
11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephaha]">[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curseb]">[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorialc]">[c] offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

29 “‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and makes herself impure while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the Lord and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’”

They will make every excuse in the book why this is not god condoning abortion. I've already presented this exact passage to the bible thumpers and holy rollers.

I have too. I've also shown the genesis passage that clearly says life starts when the breath of life is first taken through the nose.

The replies I received from both facts ranged from the totally absurd to the totally abusive.

 

[pknopp]

This is from another thread discussing abortion that I posted earlier which relates to this thread.... I'd love to hear what Christians or Jews think of the Bible passage at the end??

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A few days ago, one of our members posted scripture, from the book of Numbers, regarding abortion.... that I was actually shocked to read.... I did not know this topic even existed in the Bible...

In this passage, if you believe the Bible is God written, or the Word of God, written down by Man....

God's Law, is advocating abortion in the case of marital infidelity, or perceived marital infidelity by the wife with another man....

If the husband suspects the wife had sexual intercourse with another man and is overcome with jealousy, then he was suppose to bring his wife, before the Priest, and the Priest gave her a concoction to drink called Bitter Water, that forced a Miscarriage on her.

THAT IS ABORTION

This blew my mind! I found myself contemplating why would God, give permission for this alleged pregnant woman.... being forced in to killing her baby to be, just because it could have been, another father, not even known for certain that the wife was cheating, or the baby was not the husband's child?

And why would God have the Priest, use an abortion concoction of Bitter Water, on this woman, and this baby to be.... if it were MURDER? Or killing a baby? Was it not considered a human life yet? was it not considered a baby yet?

What was the purpose of this forced miscarriage, abortion?

Was it because the husband should not be forced to financially take care of this child that is possibly not his, until adulthood? Was it because the child would be hated by the husband and not be given a healthy and stable childhood?

I am baffled!


Numbers 5:11-31 New International Version (NIV)
The Test for an Unfaithful Wife
11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephaha]">[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curseb]">[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorialc]">[c] offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

29 “‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and makes herself impure while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the Lord and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’”

If God himself came down and stated "I have no problem with abortion", I would still be pro-life.

I do not believe anyone in any circumstance should have the right to take the life of another outside of direct self defense.

As for the passage, quess what happened in every instance? She was declared clean as no amount of water will cause an abortion. Not even "bitter water".

that's simply not true though.... it is the most common abortion in our History of abortions, drinking a concoction to make you miscarry... is how abortions were performed when doctors were not a dime a dozen... even in to the 1800's in this nation, women...mostly married with 7 to 10 kids in tow, would drink the Bitter Water, before the quickening month.... and this form of abortion has returned again in popularity, only chemical form via prescription, called Plan B...

LOL....plan B is not something one could just conjure up. Medical abortions became the norm because nothing else worked.

Women in the past didn't even know they were pregnant during the time Plan B works.

plan B is for the early weeks of pregnancy, back in the USA before govt even got involved in a family's personal business, egged on by Christian Church movements.

Plan B has to be taken within 72 hours of unprotected sex......not weeks.

the bitter water, that caused the curse....the curse is the term for menstrual bleeding or the blood from a miscarriage I believe, and yes... it worked or even mostly worked, if you drank it before you reached quickening....when the baby leaps, withing womb.... which is before about 18 to 20 weeks....

regardless, the BIBLE in these verses, is condoning the killing of an unborn child through a FORCED miscarriage, which IS Abortion....

my questions on this, are in my original post on it above... I'd like to know if you can take a shot at answering them, in your opinion?

I did address it. It's irrelevant to me.

 

[pknopp]

Why would having "no business associated with abortions" be a better candidate? Why would this person be more trusted by a woman? The doctors in Ireland let a woman die. The loss of her life led to the change of law in Ireland.

in the case of late term abortion a doctor who has nothing to do with abortion has already told the woman she needs an abortion.

Her obstetrician has told her. That doctor has nothing to do with abortion.

The demand that a doctor who has nothing to do with abortion has already been met.

No woman who is that far along goes to an abortion doctor without being referred to one by an obstetrician first.

No woman goes to an abortion doctor in her last trimester unless there is very detailed documentation of the life threatening condition or the extremely serious problem with the fetus. No abortion doctor does that. That has already been factually documented by an obstetrician.

What condition might this be?

My cousin's wife was in the last trimester of a very planned and wanted pregnancy. The cord got wrapped around the neck of the fetus and strangled it. She had to have a late term abortion to save her life.

If that fetus had stayed in her until it spontaneously aborted, a bacteria called paratinitus will grow and kill her. If it's caught soon enough she will be lucky and not die but will be left infertile. So to save her life and preserve her fertility she had a late term abortion. In fact she had what was called a partial birth abortion. This was in the 90s. If she had not had that abortion she would have either died or been left infertile and her 2 children wouldn't have been born.

On the other end of pregnancy, ectopic pregnancy has only 2 outcomes. Either she has an abortion or the woman dies. If she's lucky and can get to a hospital quick enough she might live but will be left infertile for life.

There are so many life threatening conditions that can force a pregnancy to be terminated in the last trimester. It doesn't happen often. It's only like 1% of all abortions performed in America. For the reason that Roe V. Wade makes abortion past viability illegal with the exception of the life or health of the woman being in jeopardy or there's a very serious problem with the fetus.

Such as what happened to my best friend's sister in law. The fetus didn't have a brain. That's not found until late in the pregnancy. An abortion is usually performed. Or what happened to another friend of mine. She had been trying to get pregnant for years. She finally did but found out late in the second trimester that the fetus had severe spina bifida. It wouldn't have lived long past birth. She had to travel to another state for the abortion because there is no provider in my state that performed abortions that late in pregnancy.

If you actually wanted to know about abortions that save lives all you have to do is a simple google search. There are many ways to learn about the subject if you wanted to know about it.

Removing a dead fetus is not an abortion nor anything anyone is trying to stop.

but you would stop it, with banning third trimester abortions, or delay it by getting 2nd and third opinions bull crud, while the parents, already in agony from losing their child that they wanted, are put at risque while prolonging the inevitable, and putting the mother's health at risk.

Honestly, these private decisions ARE NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. wHO IN THE HECK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE....?

No idea what you are going off on. If the child (your words) is lost all is moot.

 

[Care4all]

This is from another thread discussing abortion that I posted earlier which relates to this thread.... I'd love to hear what Christians or Jews think of the Bible passage at the end??

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A few days ago, one of our members posted scripture, from the book of Numbers, regarding abortion.... that I was actually shocked to read.... I did not know this topic even existed in the Bible...

In this passage, if you believe the Bible is God written, or the Word of God, written down by Man....

God's Law, is advocating abortion in the case of marital infidelity, or perceived marital infidelity by the wife with another man....

If the husband suspects the wife had sexual intercourse with another man and is overcome with jealousy, then he was suppose to bring his wife, before the Priest, and the Priest gave her a concoction to drink called Bitter Water, that forced a Miscarriage on her.

THAT IS ABORTION

This blew my mind! I found myself contemplating why would God, give permission for this alleged pregnant woman.... being forced in to killing her baby to be, just because it could have been, another father, not even known for certain that the wife was cheating, or the baby was not the husband's child?

And why would God have the Priest, use an abortion concoction of Bitter Water, on this woman, and this baby to be.... if it were MURDER? Or killing a baby? Was it not considered a human life yet? was it not considered a baby yet?

What was the purpose of this forced miscarriage, abortion?

Was it because the husband should not be forced to financially take care of this child that is possibly not his, until adulthood? Was it because the child would be hated by the husband and not be given a healthy and stable childhood?

I am baffled!


Numbers 5:11-31 New International Version (NIV)
The Test for an Unfaithful Wife
11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephaha]">[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curseb]">[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorialc]">[c] offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

29 “‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and makes herself impure while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the Lord and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’”

If God himself came down and stated "I have no problem with abortion", I would still be pro-life.

I do not believe anyone in any circumstance should have the right to take the life of another outside of direct self defense.

As for the passage, quess what happened in every instance? She was declared clean as no amount of water will cause an abortion. Not even "bitter water".

that's simply not true though.... it is the most common abortion in our History of abortions, drinking a concoction to make you miscarry... is how abortions were performed when doctors were not a dime a dozen... even in to the 1800's in this nation, women...mostly married with 7 to 10 kids in tow, would drink the Bitter Water, before the quickening month.... and this form of abortion has returned again in popularity, only chemical form via prescription, called Plan B...

LOL....plan B is not something one could just conjure up. Medical abortions became the norm because nothing else worked.

Women in the past didn't even know they were pregnant during the time Plan B works.

plan B is for the early weeks of pregnancy, back in the USA before govt even got involved in a family's personal business, egged on by Christian Church movements.

Plan B has to be taken within 72 hours of unprotected sex......not weeks.

the bitter water, that caused the curse....the curse is the term for menstrual bleeding or the blood from a miscarriage I believe, and yes... it worked or even mostly worked, if you drank it before you reached quickening....when the baby leaps, withing womb.... which is before about 18 to 20 weeks....

regardless, the BIBLE in these verses, is condoning the killing of an unborn child through a FORCED miscarriage, which IS Abortion....

my questions on this, are in my original post on it above... I'd like to know if you can take a shot at answering them, in your opinion?

I did address it. It's irrelevant to me.

OK, within the first few days, I wa wrong, but that is just Science.

I suppose you did address it, by saying you do not care what God says on it and why, you are simply against it, come heck or high water....

I on the other hand,

I try to make sense of what is in the Bible, usually by trying to find other scripture that pertains to the subject.... I am curious, in a philosophical kind of way....

looking for an in depth :What is God trying to teach us? How can I translate this passage in to today's circumstance kind of thing....

 

[pknopp]

If God himself came down and stated "I have no problem with abortion", I would still be pro-life.

I do not believe anyone in any circumstance should have the right to take the life of another outside of direct self defense.

As for the passage, quess what happened in every instance? She was declared clean as no amount of water will cause an abortion. Not even "bitter water".

that's simply not true though.... it is the most common abortion in our History of abortions, drinking a concoction to make you miscarry... is how abortions were performed when doctors were not a dime a dozen... even in to the 1800's in this nation, women...mostly married with 7 to 10 kids in tow, would drink the Bitter Water, before the quickening month.... and this form of abortion has returned again in popularity, only chemical form via prescription, called Plan B...

LOL....plan B is not something one could just conjure up. Medical abortions became the norm because nothing else worked.

Women in the past didn't even know they were pregnant during the time Plan B works.

plan B is for the early weeks of pregnancy, back in the USA before govt even got involved in a family's personal business, egged on by Christian Church movements.

Plan B has to be taken within 72 hours of unprotected sex......not weeks.

the bitter water, that caused the curse....the curse is the term for menstrual bleeding or the blood from a miscarriage I believe, and yes... it worked or even mostly worked, if you drank it before you reached quickening....when the baby leaps, withing womb.... which is before about 18 to 20 weeks....

regardless, the BIBLE in these verses, is condoning the killing of an unborn child through a FORCED miscarriage, which IS Abortion....

my questions on this, are in my original post on it above... I'd like to know if you can take a shot at answering them, in your opinion?

I did address it. It's irrelevant to me.

OK, within the first few days, I wa wrong, but that is just Science.

I suppose you did address it, by saying you do not care what God says on it and why, you are simply against it, come heck or high water....

I on the other hand,

I try to make sense of what is in the Bible, usually by trying to find other scripture that pertains to the subject.... I am curious, in a philosophical kind of way....

looking for an in depth :What is God trying to teach us? How can I translate this passage in to today's circumstance kind of thing....

That's great. Continue on in your search. Always trying to learn is a very positive thing.

 

[Dana7360]

A certified Doctor that has no business associated with abortions.

Why would having "no business associated with abortions" be a better candidate? Why would this person be more trusted by a woman? The doctors in Ireland let a woman die. The loss of her life led to the change of law in Ireland.

in the case of late term abortion a doctor who has nothing to do with abortion has already told the woman she needs an abortion.

Her obstetrician has told her. That doctor has nothing to do with abortion.

The demand that a doctor who has nothing to do with abortion has already been met.

No woman who is that far along goes to an abortion doctor without being referred to one by an obstetrician first.

No woman goes to an abortion doctor in her last trimester unless there is very detailed documentation of the life threatening condition or the extremely serious problem with the fetus. No abortion doctor does that. That has already been factually documented by an obstetrician.

What condition might this be?

My cousin's wife was in the last trimester of a very planned and wanted pregnancy. The cord got wrapped around the neck of the fetus and strangled it. She had to have a late term abortion to save her life.

If that fetus had stayed in her until it spontaneously aborted, a bacteria called paratinitus will grow and kill her. If it's caught soon enough she will be lucky and not die but will be left infertile. So to save her life and preserve her fertility she had a late term abortion. In fact she had what was called a partial birth abortion. This was in the 90s. If she had not had that abortion she would have either died or been left infertile and her 2 children wouldn't have been born.

On the other end of pregnancy, ectopic pregnancy has only 2 outcomes. Either she has an abortion or the woman dies. If she's lucky and can get to a hospital quick enough she might live but will be left infertile for life.

There are so many life threatening conditions that can force a pregnancy to be terminated in the last trimester. It doesn't happen often. It's only like 1% of all abortions performed in America. For the reason that Roe V. Wade makes abortion past viability illegal with the exception of the life or health of the woman being in jeopardy or there's a very serious problem with the fetus.

Such as what happened to my best friend's sister in law. The fetus didn't have a brain. That's not found until late in the pregnancy. An abortion is usually performed. Or what happened to another friend of mine. She had been trying to get pregnant for years. She finally did but found out late in the second trimester that the fetus had severe spina bifida. It wouldn't have lived long past birth. She had to travel to another state for the abortion because there is no provider in my state that performed abortions that late in pregnancy.

If you actually wanted to know about abortions that save lives all you have to do is a simple google search. There are many ways to learn about the subject if you wanted to know about it.

Removing a dead fetus is not an abortion nor anything anyone is trying to stop.

Ok I understand.

You don't know what you're talking about.

I come from a medical family. In fact primarily OB/GYN. Obviously you believe the word abortion only means to terminate a pregnancy when a person doesn't want to carry it to term.

There are medical/surgical abortions. There are spontaneous abortions, you lay people call them miscarriages. When this nation counts abortions they include spontaneous abortions in that number but don't separate it from medical abortions.

When you terminate a pregnancy before it's term whether it's consensual medical/surgical or whether it spontaneously happens by itself, that's an abortion. When a dead fetus is removed from the uterus by surgery or spontaneously, that's an abortion.

That's one of the reasons for late term abortion. Situations that put the life or health of the woman in jeopardy or there's a very serious problem with the fetus. It's never done that late in the pregnancy without a very good reason. It's illegal to do so without a very good reason and without documentation for that reason. In fact some states require more than one doctor to document and confirm the reason. No doctor in this nation is going to perform an illegal abortion that late in the pregnancy. Nor is a woman going to go to the end of a pregnancy only to walk into a clinic to demand an abortion. She did that in the first trimester.

Late term abortions involve people who have picked out names, they've bought cribs and had baby showers. Those who have to endure that are going through one of the worst things they will ever have to endure.

My mom spent a lot of her life before abortion became legal trying to save lives of women who either went to a butcher or tried to cause a miscarriage or took come concoction to miscarry or even too a knitting needle to her uterus. Every death took a piece of my mom from her. Every life she tried to save but couldn't took a part of my mom from her and from all of us. Late term abortion saves women's lives. In the case of ectopic pregnancy, those abortions save over 65 thousand lives each year.

I gave you several reasons for abortion. It's your choice to accept it or not.

Don't bother to reply to this, I won't read it. It's a waste of time to try to communicate with someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

 

[pknopp]

Why would having "no business associated with abortions" be a better candidate? Why would this person be more trusted by a woman? The doctors in Ireland let a woman die. The loss of her life led to the change of law in Ireland.

in the case of late term abortion a doctor who has nothing to do with abortion has already told the woman she needs an abortion.

Her obstetrician has told her. That doctor has nothing to do with abortion.

The demand that a doctor who has nothing to do with abortion has already been met.

No woman who is that far along goes to an abortion doctor without being referred to one by an obstetrician first.

No woman goes to an abortion doctor in her last trimester unless there is very detailed documentation of the life threatening condition or the extremely serious problem with the fetus. No abortion doctor does that. That has already been factually documented by an obstetrician.

What condition might this be?

My cousin's wife was in the last trimester of a very planned and wanted pregnancy. The cord got wrapped around the neck of the fetus and strangled it. She had to have a late term abortion to save her life.

If that fetus had stayed in her until it spontaneously aborted, a bacteria called paratinitus will grow and kill her. If it's caught soon enough she will be lucky and not die but will be left infertile. So to save her life and preserve her fertility she had a late term abortion. In fact she had what was called a partial birth abortion. This was in the 90s. If she had not had that abortion she would have either died or been left infertile and her 2 children wouldn't have been born.

On the other end of pregnancy, ectopic pregnancy has only 2 outcomes. Either she has an abortion or the woman dies. If she's lucky and can get to a hospital quick enough she might live but will be left infertile for life.

There are so many life threatening conditions that can force a pregnancy to be terminated in the last trimester. It doesn't happen often. It's only like 1% of all abortions performed in America. For the reason that Roe V. Wade makes abortion past viability illegal with the exception of the life or health of the woman being in jeopardy or there's a very serious problem with the fetus.

Such as what happened to my best friend's sister in law. The fetus didn't have a brain. That's not found until late in the pregnancy. An abortion is usually performed. Or what happened to another friend of mine. She had been trying to get pregnant for years. She finally did but found out late in the second trimester that the fetus had severe spina bifida. It wouldn't have lived long past birth. She had to travel to another state for the abortion because there is no provider in my state that performed abortions that late in pregnancy.

If you actually wanted to know about abortions that save lives all you have to do is a simple google search. There are many ways to learn about the subject if you wanted to know about it.

Removing a dead fetus is not an abortion nor anything anyone is trying to stop.

Ok I understand.

You don't know what you're talking about.

I come from a medical family. In fact primarily OB/GYN. Obviously you believe the word abortion only means to terminate a pregnancy when a person doesn't want to carry it to term.

There are medical/surgical abortions. There are spontaneous abortions, you lay people call them miscarriages. When this nation counts abortions they include spontaneous abortions in that number but don't separate it from medical abortions.

When you terminate a pregnancy before it's term whether it's consensual medical/surgical or whether it spontaneously happens by itself, that's an abortion. When a dead fetus is removed from the uterus by surgery or spontaneously, that's an abortion.

That's one of the reasons for late term abortion. Situations that put the life or health of the woman in jeopardy or there's a very serious problem with the fetus. It's never done that late in the pregnancy without a very good reason. It's illegal to do so without a very good reason and without documentation for that reason. In fact some states require more than one doctor to document and confirm the reason. No doctor in this nation is going to perform an illegal abortion that late in the pregnancy. Nor is a woman going to go to the end of a pregnancy only to walk into a clinic to demand an abortion. She did that in the first trimester.

Late term abortions involve people who have picked out names, they've bought cribs and had baby showers. Those who have to endure that are going through one of the worst things they will ever have to endure.

My mom spent a lot of her life before abortion became legal trying to save lives of women who either went to a butcher or tried to cause a miscarriage or took come concoction to miscarry or even too a knitting needle to her uterus. Every death took a piece of my mom from her. Every life she tried to save but couldn't took a part of my mom from her and from all of us. Late term abortion saves women's lives. In the case of ectopic pregnancy, those abortions save over 65 thousand lives each year.

I gave you several reasons for abortion. It's your choice to accept it or not.

Don't bother to reply to this, I won't read it. It's a waste of time to try to communicate with someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

A fetus that has died in the womb on its own has absolutely nothing to do with the debate.

Nothing.