If God is all powerful, ...

[zaangalewa]

Aha. I don't know now what your real problem is - but your problem seems to have to do something with your age and what other people could think about you.

Then you have a very hard time following a simple discussion. Your conman rhetoric is childlike. Not effective on adults.

My rhethorics is just simple not existing, adult, atheistic one.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Aha. I don't know now what your real problem is - but your problem seems to have to do something with your age and what other people could think about you.

Then you have a very hard time following a simple discussion. Your conman rhetoric is childlike. Not effective on adults.

My rhethorics is just simple not existing, adult, atheistic one.

Simple garbage, really,meant for simpletons, lazy people, and children.

 

[zaangalewa]

Aha. I don't know now what your real problem is - but your problem seems to have to do something with your age and what other people could think about you.

Then you have a very hard time following a simple discussion. Your conman rhetoric is childlike. Not effective on adults.

My rhethorics is just simple not existing, adult, atheistic one.

Simple garbage, really,meant for simpletons, lazy people, and children.

Which form and content of answer on what kind of argument do you expect now, adult?

 

[Taz]

God thinks that homosexuality is a good thing.

He told you that? His written Word says otherwise.

God put homosexuality throughout nature. Ipso facto he like gayness.

By that argument you could conclude that he also likes bigots, right? Or male pattern baldness.

It seems to me that you might be missing the more obvious signs of God’s preferences.

God kicked Adam and Eve out of Eden for having hetero sex.

You're a fool. You offer nothing of substance. Off to ignore you go.

Your concession is duly noted.

 

[onefour1]

But the question is why? If God is an all loving being, it seems that he could have foregone the suffering, pain, and death of all of us and simply made us to be what he himself is, perfect.

Apparently you are having a tough time or are incapable of separating in your mind that which is spirit and that which is flesh. The spirit of the Son in these current flesh containers was created perfect from the beginning,

There was 'a great war in heaven', 'I saw satan fall from the heavens like lightening fall' and 'satan deceive a third of the angels who followed the deceiver'. Created already in perfection but certain ones made a choice to follow the enmity to God who decided that they could rise above God and take over His/Her throne, Would you prefer total destruction or an opportunity to save what was created in your own image?

The great war in heaven proves that even as spirits, before they were cast to this earth were not perfect. A perfect being would never have rebelled against God but would have had a perfect knowledge that his way was the right way. Why didn't God give these spirits perfection so there would be no war in heaven and a rebellion. Whether it be spirits or the souls of mankind, they lacked perfection. Why didn't God simply create them to be perfect?

Actually it merely shows that Man goes through a process. Perfection is completed in a process of time. Perhaps you can find a clay master to go work with briefly to watch the process of creating a masterpiece. Does the clay like being pulverized, pounded, and fired?

God did create Man to be perfect in its time. Human on the other hand is a piece, a portion of the process and during that process you get to make certain choices.

It is obvious that if God exists, then He has chosen a process of time. However, this raises questions as to why He would use a process of time that includes pain, suffering and death if He already had the power to create us perfect from the beginning. If God is an all loving and caring being, then why would he not forego all the pain, suffering and death and simply create us perfect from the start? If He is all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving and caring being, surely it is more humane to avoid the pain suffering and death. So the question remains, Why didn't he just create us perfect from the beginning and avoid the inhumane part of the process?

Who determines what is "humane" for humans?[\Quote]

God does. But you would think that if He is all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving God, then he would avoid the pain, suffering, and death if he could accomplish his ends without them.

"Likeness" doesn't mean a Man was created to take God's place. Nor does it mean that choices would not be allowed or mere drones were created that would all be the exact replica. Man was created in the "likeness" and was also given the ability to make choices of Its own when given the "seed" to multiply and be fruitful for the Spirit of God (absolute pure love) would have a place to dwell.

But God would give mankind his free agency In this scenario. The difference is that he would be all powerful, all knowing, and all loving as well. With the attribute of being all knowing, he would know and understand that going against the commandments of God would be wrong and would never choose that path. In this way he would avoid the pain, suffering, and death of a fall. His attributes that he is created with would guide him to avoid evil and choose, through his free will, the right choices.

 

[onefour1]

If God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving God, then why didn't he create us to be perfect?

If God is all powerful and can do all things, surely he would be able to create a perfect being who has all power, all knowledge, and is a perfectly loving being. To say that he cannot create such a being is to admit that God is not all powerful.

If God is all knowing surely he has the knowledge to create a perfect being and to give that perfect being a perfect knowledge.

If God is an all loving being who loves his creations then he would surely want the best for his creations. He would want his creations to be perfect. Thus he would create us to be perfect. Even in a world or universe where free will exists, if God created us to be perfect, then we with our perfect knowledge could surely reason out that we should choose good over evil always and never make a bad decision. We would be created with a heart filled with love for our fellow beings and our own creations. God would spare us the evil we experience in this world as we would have started out from creation as perfect beings never to commit any act that is contrary to what is right and good.

So why didn't God simply create us to be perfect?

I believe he did make us perfect but with free will. We used our free will to take a different path.

If we are perfect, then why do we sin? A perfect being would have a perfect knowledge and understanding of right and wrong and would love righteousness more than evil. He/She would never use his/her free will to choose evil given the perfect attributes he is created with. God is perfect, does he ever choose evil over good? The fact that man chose go against God instead of following his commandments shows that he was an imperfect being.

 

[onefour1]

If God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving God, then why didn't he create us to be perfect?

If God is all powerful and can do all things, surely he would be able to create a perfect being who has all power, all knowledge, and is a perfectly loving being. To say that he cannot create such a being is to admit that God is not all powerful.

If God is all knowing surely he has the knowledge to create a perfect being and to give that perfect being a perfect knowledge.

If God is an all loving being who loves his creations then he would surely want the best for his creations. He would want his creations to be perfect. Thus he would create us to be perfect. Even in a world or universe where free will exists, if God created us to be perfect, then we with our perfect knowledge could surely reason out that we should choose good over evil always and never make a bad decision. We would be created with a heart filled with love for our fellow beings and our own creations. God would spare us the evil we experience in this world as we would have started out from creation as perfect beings never to commit any act that is contrary to what is right and good.

So why didn't God simply create us to be perfect?

Maybe because God is seeking a certain outcome under certain conditions.

It is not virtuous if you are forced to be virtuous.

God would not be forcing us to be virtuous. We with our perfect knowledge and wisdom would always choose that which is virtuous of our own free will.

 

[ding]

If God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving God, then why didn't he create us to be perfect?

If God is all powerful and can do all things, surely he would be able to create a perfect being who has all power, all knowledge, and is a perfectly loving being. To say that he cannot create such a being is to admit that God is not all powerful.

If God is all knowing surely he has the knowledge to create a perfect being and to give that perfect being a perfect knowledge.

If God is an all loving being who loves his creations then he would surely want the best for his creations. He would want his creations to be perfect. Thus he would create us to be perfect. Even in a world or universe where free will exists, if God created us to be perfect, then we with our perfect knowledge could surely reason out that we should choose good over evil always and never make a bad decision. We would be created with a heart filled with love for our fellow beings and our own creations. God would spare us the evil we experience in this world as we would have started out from creation as perfect beings never to commit any act that is contrary to what is right and good.

So why didn't God simply create us to be perfect?

Maybe because God is seeking a certain outcome under certain conditions.

It is not virtuous if you are forced to be virtuous.

God would not be forcing us to be virtuous. We with our perfect knowledge and wisdom would always choose that which is virtuous of our own free will.

Our perfect knowledge and wisdom? Always choose that which is virtuous of our own free will?

Which universe do you live in?

 

[onefour1]

If God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving God, then why didn't he create us to be perfect?

If God is all powerful and can do all things, surely he would be able to create a perfect being who has all power, all knowledge, and is a perfectly loving being. To say that he cannot create such a being is to admit that God is not all powerful.

If God is all knowing surely he has the knowledge to create a perfect being and to give that perfect being a perfect knowledge.

If God is an all loving being who loves his creations then he would surely want the best for his creations. He would want his creations to be perfect. Thus he would create us to be perfect. Even in a world or universe where free will exists, if God created us to be perfect, then we with our perfect knowledge could surely reason out that we should choose good over evil always and never make a bad decision. We would be created with a heart filled with love for our fellow beings and our own creations. God would spare us the evil we experience in this world as we would have started out from creation as perfect beings never to commit any act that is contrary to what is right and good.

So why didn't God simply create us to be perfect?

Maybe because God is seeking a certain outcome under certain conditions.

It is not virtuous if you are forced to be virtuous.

God would not be forcing us to be virtuous. We with our perfect knowledge and wisdom would always choose that which is virtuous of our own free will.

Our perfect knowledge and wisdom? Always choose that which is virtuous of our own free will?

Which universe do you live in?

I am not saying that this is the universe we live in. I am saying that if God made us with the attributes of perfection, then it would be part of our character to always choose that which is virtuous. So why didn't he create us with the attributes of perfection?

 

[ding]

If God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving God, then why didn't he create us to be perfect?

If God is all powerful and can do all things, surely he would be able to create a perfect being who has all power, all knowledge, and is a perfectly loving being. To say that he cannot create such a being is to admit that God is not all powerful.

If God is all knowing surely he has the knowledge to create a perfect being and to give that perfect being a perfect knowledge.

If God is an all loving being who loves his creations then he would surely want the best for his creations. He would want his creations to be perfect. Thus he would create us to be perfect. Even in a world or universe where free will exists, if God created us to be perfect, then we with our perfect knowledge could surely reason out that we should choose good over evil always and never make a bad decision. We would be created with a heart filled with love for our fellow beings and our own creations. God would spare us the evil we experience in this world as we would have started out from creation as perfect beings never to commit any act that is contrary to what is right and good.

So why didn't God simply create us to be perfect?

Maybe because God is seeking a certain outcome under certain conditions.

It is not virtuous if you are forced to be virtuous.

God would not be forcing us to be virtuous. We with our perfect knowledge and wisdom would always choose that which is virtuous of our own free will.

Our perfect knowledge and wisdom? Always choose that which is virtuous of our own free will?

Which universe do you live in?

I am not saying that this is the universe we live in. I am saying that if God made us with the attributes of perfection, then it would be part of our character to always choose that which is virtuous. So why didn't he create us with the attributes of perfection?

You have that now. It's totally up to you to choose to be perfect.

 

[onefour1]

If God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving God, then why didn't he create us to be perfect?

If God is all powerful and can do all things, surely he would be able to create a perfect being who has all power, all knowledge, and is a perfectly loving being. To say that he cannot create such a being is to admit that God is not all powerful.

If God is all knowing surely he has the knowledge to create a perfect being and to give that perfect being a perfect knowledge.

If God is an all loving being who loves his creations then he would surely want the best for his creations. He would want his creations to be perfect. Thus he would create us to be perfect. Even in a world or universe where free will exists, if God created us to be perfect, then we with our perfect knowledge could surely reason out that we should choose good over evil always and never make a bad decision. We would be created with a heart filled with love for our fellow beings and our own creations. God would spare us the evil we experience in this world as we would have started out from creation as perfect beings never to commit any act that is contrary to what is right and good.

So why didn't God simply create us to be perfect?

Maybe because God is seeking a certain outcome under certain conditions.

It is not virtuous if you are forced to be virtuous.

God would not be forcing us to be virtuous. We with our perfect knowledge and wisdom would always choose that which is virtuous of our own free will.

Our perfect knowledge and wisdom? Always choose that which is virtuous of our own free will?

Which universe do you live in?

I am not saying that this is the universe we live in. I am saying that if God made us with the attributes of perfection, then it would be part of our character to always choose that which is virtuous. So why didn't he create us with the attributes of perfection?

You have that now. It's totally up to you to choose to be perfect.

We have the opportunity to become perfect but we were not created with the attributes of perfection. Had we been created with the attributes of perfection, we would not have to live in a fallen state and suffer all manner of pain and suffer or even death. So the question is not, "Why didn't God create us with the opportunity to become perfect?", but is, "Why did God not create us with the attributes of perfection from the beginning to avoid all the pain, suffering, and death?".

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Maybe because God is seeking a certain outcome under certain conditions.

It is not virtuous if you are forced to be virtuous.

God would not be forcing us to be virtuous. We with our perfect knowledge and wisdom would always choose that which is virtuous of our own free will.

Our perfect knowledge and wisdom? Always choose that which is virtuous of our own free will?

Which universe do you live in?

I am not saying that this is the universe we live in. I am saying that if God made us with the attributes of perfection, then it would be part of our character to always choose that which is virtuous. So why didn't he create us with the attributes of perfection?

You have that now. It's totally up to you to choose to be perfect.

We have the opportunity to become perfect but we were not created with the attributes of perfection. Had we been created with the attributes of perfection, we would not have to live in a fallen state and suffer all manner of pain and suffer or even death. So the question is not, "Why didn't God create us with the opportunity to become perfect?", but is, "Why did God not create us with the attributes of perfection from the beginning to avoid all the pain, suffering, and death?".

Simple! Because there are no gods. See how easy?

 

[ding]

Maybe because God is seeking a certain outcome under certain conditions.

It is not virtuous if you are forced to be virtuous.

God would not be forcing us to be virtuous. We with our perfect knowledge and wisdom would always choose that which is virtuous of our own free will.

Our perfect knowledge and wisdom? Always choose that which is virtuous of our own free will?

Which universe do you live in?

I am not saying that this is the universe we live in. I am saying that if God made us with the attributes of perfection, then it would be part of our character to always choose that which is virtuous. So why didn't he create us with the attributes of perfection?

You have that now. It's totally up to you to choose to be perfect.

We have the opportunity to become perfect but we were not created with the attributes of perfection. Had we been created with the attributes of perfection, we would not have to live in a fallen state and suffer all manner of pain and suffer or even death. So the question is not, "Why didn't God create us with the opportunity to become perfect?", but is, "Why did God not create us with the attributes of perfection from the beginning to avoid all the pain, suffering, and death?".

Sure you were. If you have the opportunity to be perfect (whatever you think that means) then you are equipped to be perfect. Is there something other than you that is preventing you from it now? Or are you arguing you have no choice in the matter? That you aren't in control of yourself? That something or someone else is forcing you to be imperfect?

 

[ding]

God would not be forcing us to be virtuous. We with our perfect knowledge and wisdom would always choose that which is virtuous of our own free will.

Our perfect knowledge and wisdom? Always choose that which is virtuous of our own free will?

Which universe do you live in?

I am not saying that this is the universe we live in. I am saying that if God made us with the attributes of perfection, then it would be part of our character to always choose that which is virtuous. So why didn't he create us with the attributes of perfection?

You have that now. It's totally up to you to choose to be perfect.

We have the opportunity to become perfect but we were not created with the attributes of perfection. Had we been created with the attributes of perfection, we would not have to live in a fallen state and suffer all manner of pain and suffer or even death. So the question is not, "Why didn't God create us with the opportunity to become perfect?", but is, "Why did God not create us with the attributes of perfection from the beginning to avoid all the pain, suffering, and death?".

Simple! Because there are no gods. See how easy?

Your problem is that you don't have a serious perception of God. You have never seriously considered the possibility, so you don't test anything you believe against a realistic perception of a force that connects us all but is not a part of us.

 

[ding]

Why did God not create us with the attributes of perfection from the beginning to avoid all the pain, suffering, and death?

My belief is that God created the material world such that beings that know and create would arise so that he could experience the material world through us.

Are you saying that you would want to live in a world without downs and only ups? What fun would that be? It is the agony of defeat which gives victory its thrill.

 

[onefour1]

God would not be forcing us to be virtuous. We with our perfect knowledge and wisdom would always choose that which is virtuous of our own free will.

Our perfect knowledge and wisdom? Always choose that which is virtuous of our own free will?

Which universe do you live in?

I am not saying that this is the universe we live in. I am saying that if God made us with the attributes of perfection, then it would be part of our character to always choose that which is virtuous. So why didn't he create us with the attributes of perfection?

You have that now. It's totally up to you to choose to be perfect.

We have the opportunity to become perfect but we were not created with the attributes of perfection. Had we been created with the attributes of perfection, we would not have to live in a fallen state and suffer all manner of pain and suffer or even death. So the question is not, "Why didn't God create us with the opportunity to become perfect?", but is, "Why did God not create us with the attributes of perfection from the beginning to avoid all the pain, suffering, and death?".

Sure you were. If you have the opportunity to be perfect (whatever you think that means) then you are equipped to be perfect. Is there something other than you that is preventing you from it now? Or are you arguing you have no choice in the matter? That you aren't in control of yourself? That something or someone else is forcing you to be imperfect?

When a being is in an imperfect state A and wants to get to a perfect state B, going from A->B is not an instantaneous event. It takes learning, trial and error, and much more time. It is not the same as being created perfect where you start out at the perfect state of B. There is a big difference between the two. In the Bible we learn that an imperfect state brought a fall which in turn brought about pain, suffering, and death. If a being were created in a perfect state, the fall would be avoided and so would many of the pains and sufferings and even death.

You can decide right now that you are going to be perfect in knowledge but it will be quite some time before you can compare yourself to one who already has that knowledge. There is a huge process of going from A->B. On the other hand, if you are created with all knowledge, then there is no process to go through. All the trouble is avoided. So to say that a being in an imperfect state who has the ability to become perfect is the same as a being in a perfect state is simply not true. Acquiring perfection is not an instantaneous process. The journey to becoming perfect can be a long, difficult, and sometimes painful process. Whereas, if you were simply created perfect, you would avoid the process and all the pain and difficulties associated with it.

 

[onefour1]

Why did God not create us with the attributes of perfection from the beginning to avoid all the pain, suffering, and death?

My belief is that God created the material world such that beings that know and create would arise so that he could experience the material world through us.

Are you saying that you would want to live in a world without downs and only ups? What fun would that be? It is the agony of defeat which gives victory its thrill.

I don't think that perfection eliminates all the ups and downs. Certainly it pains God to see his children fall and choose evil over good.

 

[BreezeWood]

God would not be forcing us to be virtuous. We with our perfect knowledge and wisdom would always choose that which is virtuous of our own free will.

Our perfect knowledge and wisdom? Always choose that which is virtuous of our own free will?

Which universe do you live in?

I am not saying that this is the universe we live in. I am saying that if God made us with the attributes of perfection, then it would be part of our character to always choose that which is virtuous. So why didn't he create us with the attributes of perfection?

You have that now. It's totally up to you to choose to be perfect.

We have the opportunity to become perfect but we were not created with the attributes of perfection. Had we been created with the attributes of perfection, we would not have to live in a fallen state and suffer all manner of pain and suffer or even death. So the question is not, "Why didn't God create us with the opportunity to become perfect?", but is, "Why did God not create us with the attributes of perfection from the beginning to avoid all the pain, suffering, and death?".

Sure you were. If you have the opportunity to be perfect (whatever you think that means) then you are equipped to be perfect. Is there something other than you that is preventing you from it now? Or are you arguing you have no choice in the matter? That you aren't in control of yourself? That something or someone else is forcing you to be imperfect?

.

Sure you were. If you have the opportunity to be perfect (whatever you think that means) then you are equipped to be perfect. Is there something other than you that is preventing you from it now? Or are you arguing you have no choice in the matter? That you aren't in control of yourself? That something or someone else is forcing you to be imperfect?

so says the converted christian that abandoned the religion of antiquity for the belief in a false messiah to solve his problems for him.

 

[ding]

Our perfect knowledge and wisdom? Always choose that which is virtuous of our own free will?

Which universe do you live in?

I am not saying that this is the universe we live in. I am saying that if God made us with the attributes of perfection, then it would be part of our character to always choose that which is virtuous. So why didn't he create us with the attributes of perfection?

You have that now. It's totally up to you to choose to be perfect.

We have the opportunity to become perfect but we were not created with the attributes of perfection. Had we been created with the attributes of perfection, we would not have to live in a fallen state and suffer all manner of pain and suffer or even death. So the question is not, "Why didn't God create us with the opportunity to become perfect?", but is, "Why did God not create us with the attributes of perfection from the beginning to avoid all the pain, suffering, and death?".

Sure you were. If you have the opportunity to be perfect (whatever you think that means) then you are equipped to be perfect. Is there something other than you that is preventing you from it now? Or are you arguing you have no choice in the matter? That you aren't in control of yourself? That something or someone else is forcing you to be imperfect?

When a being is in an imperfect state A and wants to get to a perfect state B, going from A->B is not an instantaneous event. It takes learning, trial and error, and much more time. It is not the same as being created perfect where you start out at the perfect state of B. There is a big difference between the two. In the Bible we learn that an imperfect state brought a fall which in turn brought about pain, suffering, and death. If a being were created in a perfect state, the fall would be avoided and so would many of the pains and sufferings and even death.

You can decide right now that you are going to be perfect in knowledge but it will be quite some time before you can compare yourself to one who already has that knowledge. There is a huge process of going from A->B. On the other hand, if you are created with all knowledge, then there is no process to go through. All the trouble is avoided. So to say that a being in an imperfect state who has the ability to become perfect is the same as a being in a perfect state is simply not true. Acquiring perfection is not an instantaneous process. The journey to becoming perfect can be a long, difficult, and sometimes painful process. Whereas, if you were simply created perfect, you would avoid the process and all the pain and difficulties associated with it.

I think we have different ideas of what it means to be perfect.

Being perfect to me doesn’t mean doing perfect things or having perfect knowledge. Life is a journey. It was always meant to be a journey. We learn as we go.

God is hard to describe because God is no thing. His nature is totally beyond our comprehension. The closest we can come to describing God is consciousness without form. When Moses asked God who he should tell his people who God was God said tell them I Am. God is existence. In the phrase Be Perfect, the emphasis is on the word Be, not perfect. Exist perfectly. The default state is perfect. No matter what happens after that we can always start over in this state because we exist in the present, not the future or the past.

 

[ding]

Why did God not create us with the attributes of perfection from the beginning to avoid all the pain, suffering, and death?

My belief is that God created the material world such that beings that know and create would arise so that he could experience the material world through us.

Are you saying that you would want to live in a world without downs and only ups? What fun would that be? It is the agony of defeat which gives victory its thrill.

I don't think that perfection eliminates all the ups and downs. Certainly it pains God to see his children fall and choose evil over good.

That is exactly what you are saying when you say end all suffering.

Whereas I believe that even though life can be hard it is totally and unequivocally amazing and awesome. It is the most rare and precious gift in space and time. So rather than seeing suffering as only bad, I choose to see the good that can come from bad things happening to good people. But beyond that I keep it in its proper perspective which is existence is fucking awesome.