IF higher taxes will create jobs, why did the stimulus fail?

[JRK]

the us patent office.

Have a nice day.

you might have mentioned bureau of weights and measures.
But all of that accounts for about 0.0000001% of gov't expenditures.
And those aren't exactly gov't programs but constitutionally-mandated functions.

well sure. Now we're agreeing that government has a role in creating wealth and debating the details of that fact.

You could add the department of defense, which offers a macro version of the private property protections offered by the patent office.

the us government creates 0 wealth
the tax payer creates that wealth
the us government is suppose to take that wealth and use it for the good of the people
not the good of the uaw or the nea

for the people
by the people

 

[Sallow]

you might have mentioned bureau of weights and measures.
But all of that accounts for about 0.0000001% of gov't expenditures.
And those aren't exactly gov't programs but constitutionally-mandated functions.

well sure. Now we're agreeing that government has a role in creating wealth and debating the details of that fact.

You could add the department of defense, which offers a macro version of the private property protections offered by the patent office.

the us government creates 0 wealth
the tax payer creates that wealth
the us government is suppose to take that wealth and use it for the good of the people
not the good of the uaw or the nea

for the people
by the people

And which people are you talking about?

The CEOs of Grumman? Halliburton? Boeing? Raytheon? Exxon? BP?

You guys are so freakin full of it.

 

[thereisnospoon]

You are actually going to post that nonsense? That government spending creates wealth?
Really?!!!!
Give some specific examples of a government program that creates wealth and while it does, operates under or at budget and on time.

The US patent office.

Have a nice day.

I said "SOME" examples. And without data to back up your claim, it's bullshit.
Jesus Christ you libs are easy.

 

[thereisnospoon]

president bush did not put the afghan war or the iraq war in his budget, nor did he put the amounts shoveled out for Katrina in his budget, nor did he put any emergency spending on things like forest fire relief in his budget....

so you can not get a clear picture on what president Bush's deficits were because he masked them with what he called "supplemental spending"....the ONLY way to compare apples to apples is to look at the National debt each fiscal year for the 8 years that president Bush was in office....his 8 year term added near $6 TRILLION to the national debt....his last yearly deficit was over a trillion dollars....this is what Barak had to begin with...a running deficit of over a trillion dollars a year...while President Bush began with a running surplus of a couple of hundred billion a year and ended with a budget producing trillion dollar deficits.....and handed that to Obama....

you guys just are not thinking things through....

also, President Bush had the luxury of using some of the highest revenue years of social security for what Income taxes should have been paying....

All of that is a lie.
You have this annoying history of posting bullshit and then when disproven you disappear and refuse to acknowledge you were wrong.
Why should anyone take you seriously?

No it's not.

It's exactly correct.

That.... is your opinion

 

[thereisnospoon]

You are actually going to post that nonsense? That government spending creates wealth?
Really?!!!!
Give some specific examples of a government program that creates wealth and while it does, operates under or at budget and on time.

The US patent office.

Have a nice day.

You might have mentioned Bureau of Weights and Measures.
But all of that accounts for about 0.0000001% of gov't expenditures.
And those aren't exactly gov't programs but constitutionally-mandated functions.

Yeah, they are trying to dodge the issue here by throwing what are essential functions of government in lieu of the real culprits. Those being discretionary and social spending.

 

[8537]

You might have mentioned Bureau of Weights and Measures.
But all of that accounts for about 0.0000001% of gov't expenditures.
And those aren't exactly gov't programs but constitutionally-mandated functions.

Well sure. Now we're agreeing that government has a role in creating wealth and debating the details of that fact.

you could add The Department of Defense, which offers a macro version of the private property protections offered by the patent office.

No, you couldn't.
The percentage of defense expenditures that actually secures private property is tiny.

really now? All defense spending protects private property.

But it cannot create wealth.

You agreed that government create's wealth not more than two posts ago. Please try to keep your bullshit straight.

 

[JRK]

president bush did not put the afghan war or the iraq war in his budget, nor did he put the amounts shoveled out for Katrina in his budget, nor did he put any emergency spending on things like forest fire relief in his budget....

so you can not get a clear picture on what president Bush's deficits were because he masked them with what he called "supplemental spending"....the ONLY way to compare apples to apples is to look at the National debt each fiscal year for the 8 years that president Bush was in office....his 8 year term added near $6 TRILLION to the national debt....his last yearly deficit was over a trillion dollars....this is what Barak had to begin with...a running deficit of over a trillion dollars a year...while President Bush began with a running surplus of a couple of hundred billion a year and ended with a budget producing trillion dollar deficits.....and handed that to Obama....

you guys just are not thinking things through....

also, President Bush had the luxury of using some of the highest revenue years of social security for what Income taxes should have been paying....

All of that is a lie.
You have this annoying history of posting bullshit and then when disproven you disappear and refuse to acknowledge you were wrong.
Why should anyone take you seriously?

NONE absolutely NONE of that is a lie....

feel free to show us all, the lie....

i'll be waiting...........

how many times do you want to see its a lie?
how many?
his last year deficit?
what year was that?
2009?
so the stimulus was GWB?
and Gm getting the 74 billion was GWB?
and lets see whose budget was for 09 and who signed it
National Coalition for Homeless Veterans - President Obama Signs FY 2009 Budget into Law

and where do you keep getting this 6 trillion dollar number from?
with intrest?
Thats not GWB fault
He added as i have supplied numerous links about 2.5-3 trillion
Budget 2011: Past Deficits vs. Obama’s Deficits in Pictures | The Foundry

 

[Sallow]

All of that is a lie.
You have this annoying history of posting bullshit and then when disproven you disappear and refuse to acknowledge you were wrong.
Why should anyone take you seriously?

No it's not.

It's exactly correct.

That.... is your opinion

Not opinion.

History.

 

[8537]

you might have mentioned bureau of weights and measures.
But all of that accounts for about 0.0000001% of gov't expenditures.
And those aren't exactly gov't programs but constitutionally-mandated functions.

well sure. Now we're agreeing that government has a role in creating wealth and debating the details of that fact.

You could add the department of defense, which offers a macro version of the private property protections offered by the patent office.

the us government creates 0 wealth

You mean that the government created no wealth during WW2?

Discoveries by the NIH have not created wealth?
Innovations at NASA have not created wealth?
Technology spillover from the Defense Department hasn't create wealth? (think on that last one before you answer - and remember where we're having this discussion).

 

[thereisnospoon]

The US patent office.

Have a nice day.

You might have mentioned Bureau of Weights and Measures.
But all of that accounts for about 0.0000001% of gov't expenditures.
And those aren't exactly gov't programs but constitutionally-mandated functions.

Well sure. Now we're agreeing that government has a role in creating wealth and debating the details of that fact.

you could add The Department of Defense, which offers a macro version of the private property protections offered by the patent office.

The Bureau of Weights and Measures creates wealth? Ok, I'll bite. Post some examples.
And you can throw in the US Patent Office as well.
Creation of wealth.....By it's simple definition is the profit earned by an individual or business for the personal enjoyment or reinvestment of the wealth by/of the person or owners/investors of that business. Based on that definition, you must give examples of the Bureau of Weights and Measure or the US Patent Office creates profit. Be specific.

 

[JRK]

Lets get a couple of things straight here
1) GWB inherited a recession and 9-11
Early 2000s recession - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2) Bush inherited a very large job loss period
1999...... 128,993 108,686 24,465 598 6,545 17,322

2000...... 131,785 110,995 24,649 599 6,787 17,263
2001...... 131,826 110,708 23,873 606 6,826 16,441
2002...... 130,341 108,828 22,557 583 6,716 15,259
2003...... 129,999 108,416 21,816 572 6,735 14,510
2004...... 131,435 109,814 21,882 591 6,976 14,315
2005...... 133,703 111,899 22,190 628 7,336 14,226

Thats wat GWB inherited ok

and 9-11 was no small event
You people talk about budgets of the US government and act like nothing from 9-11 effected our deficit
like creating homeland security so the FBI and the CIA could talk to each other maybe?

 

[8537]

You might have mentioned Bureau of Weights and Measures.
But all of that accounts for about 0.0000001% of gov't expenditures.
And those aren't exactly gov't programs but constitutionally-mandated functions.

Well sure. Now we're agreeing that government has a role in creating wealth and debating the details of that fact.

you could add The Department of Defense, which offers a macro version of the private property protections offered by the patent office.

The Bureau of Weights and Measures creates wealth? Ok, I'll bite. Post some examples.
And you can throw in the US Patent Office as well.
Creation of wealth.....By it's simple definition is the profit earned by an individual or business for the personal enjoyment or reinvestment of the wealth by/of the person or owners/investors of that business. Based on that definition, you must give examples of the Bureau of Weights and Measure or the US Patent Office creates profit. Be specific.

The US patent office creates the legal environment wherein wealth can accumulate based on one's intellectual property.

With no such environment - created by government - there is no enforceable private property right and therefore no accumulation of wealth based on intellectual property and therefore no incentive towards said property.

It is the most basic function of government in a capitalist system.

 

[8537]

Lets get a couple of things straight here
1) GWB inherited a recession and 9-11
Early 2000s recession - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2) Bush inherited a very large job loss period
1999...... 128,993 108,686 24,465 598 6,545 17,322

2000...... 131,785 110,995 24,649 599 6,787 17,263
2001...... 131,826 110,708 23,873 606 6,826 16,441
2002...... 130,341 108,828 22,557 583 6,716 15,259
2003...... 129,999 108,416 21,816 572 6,735 14,510
2004...... 131,435 109,814 21,882 591 6,976 14,315
2005...... 133,703 111,899 22,190 628 7,336 14,226

Thats wat GWB inherited ok

and 9-11 was no small event
You people talk about budgets of the US government and act like nothing from 9-11 effected our deficit
like creating homeland security so the FBI and the CIA could talk to each other maybe?

LOL! You're own numbers show that Bush inherited an economy that was still creating jobs: From 131,785 in 2000 to 131,826 in 2001.

And the recession started in March of 2001.

Please stop mindlessly making shit up.

 

[thereisnospoon]

well sure. Now we're agreeing that government has a role in creating wealth and debating the details of that fact.

You could add the department of defense, which offers a macro version of the private property protections offered by the patent office.

the us government creates 0 wealth

You mean that the government created no wealth during WW2?

Discoveries by the NIH have not created wealth?
Innovations at NASA have not created wealth?
Technology spillover from the Defense Department hasn't create wealth? (think on that last one before you answer - and remember where we're having this discussion).

NASA bleeds money. That's why the space program is being defunded.
The scientific experiments have or may down the line create innovations in technology and help us to discover things. But the wealth created is in the profit of the sale or distribution of said technologies and discoveries.
WW II ...The federal government did not create wealth. The federal government contracted with private enterprise to build ships planes, land vehicles, weapons, munitions, etc. The wealth was created in the earnings of the companies and the employees.
Now one can say but for the government contract, there would not have been the income from the construction of needed war material. However, it was not as though these companies were sitting with empty factories waiting for government to hand them work to do.
I find it incredible how some of you are so lacking in self confidence and so put of by the notion of the individual that you place so much of your loyalty in government.
Government may not be the enemy, but it is certainly not our friend.

 

[Sallow]

the us government creates 0 wealth

You mean that the government created no wealth during WW2?

Discoveries by the NIH have not created wealth?
Innovations at NASA have not created wealth?
Technology spillover from the Defense Department hasn't create wealth? (think on that last one before you answer - and remember where we're having this discussion).

NASA bleeds money. That's why the space program is being defunded.
The scientific experiments have or may down the line create innovations in technology and help us to discover things. But the wealth created is in the profit of the sale or distribution of said technologies and discoveries.
WW II ...The federal government did not create wealth. The federal government contracted with private enterprise to build ships planes, land vehicles, weapons, munitions, etc. The wealth was created in the earnings of the companies and the employees.
Now one can say but for the government contract, there would not have been the income from the construction of needed war material. However, it was not as though these companies were sitting with empty factories waiting for government to hand them work to do.
I find it incredible how some of you are so lacking in self confidence and so put of by the notion of the individual that you place so much of your loyalty in government.
Government may not be the enemy, but it is certainly not our friend.

Somewhere Grover Norquist is smiling.

 

[8537]

the us government creates 0 wealth

You mean that the government created no wealth during WW2?

Discoveries by the NIH have not created wealth?
Innovations at NASA have not created wealth?
Technology spillover from the Defense Department hasn't create wealth? (think on that last one before you answer - and remember where we're having this discussion).

NASA bleeds money. That's why the space program is being defunded.

They also create technology.

The scientific experiments have or may down the line create innovations in technology and help us to discover things. But the wealth created is in the profit of the sale or distribution of said technologies and discoveries.

So the government creates technologies and the private sector profits from them.

Let me ask you: Do you think that supports your claim? If so, please think again.

WW II ...The federal government did not create wealth. The federal government contracted with private enterprise to build ships planes, land vehicles, weapons, munitions, etc. The wealth was created in the earnings of the companies and the employees.

Without government, those contracts would never have been signed. The government created those contracts and fostered the growth it created.

Now one can say but for the government contract, there would not have been the income from the construction of needed war material. However, it was not as though these companies were sitting with empty factories waiting for government to hand them work to do.

What the fuck are you talking about? Cap utilization was about 50% when the war started! Of course there were empty factories.

We call that "The Great Depression". Perhaps you've heard of it. And when the war started, hundreds of new factories were built, which created wealth.

I'm amazed how far rightwingnuts will go to deny the clear and obvious facts in front of them - to the extent they will claim that there weren't empty factories in 1940

Precious.

 

[8537]

You mean that the government created no wealth during WW2?

Discoveries by the NIH have not created wealth?
Innovations at NASA have not created wealth?
Technology spillover from the Defense Department hasn't create wealth? (think on that last one before you answer - and remember where we're having this discussion).

NASA bleeds money. That's why the space program is being defunded.
The scientific experiments have or may down the line create innovations in technology and help us to discover things. But the wealth created is in the profit of the sale or distribution of said technologies and discoveries.
WW II ...The federal government did not create wealth. The federal government contracted with private enterprise to build ships planes, land vehicles, weapons, munitions, etc. The wealth was created in the earnings of the companies and the employees.
Now one can say but for the government contract, there would not have been the income from the construction of needed war material. However, it was not as though these companies were sitting with empty factories waiting for government to hand them work to do.
I find it incredible how some of you are so lacking in self confidence and so put of by the notion of the individual that you place so much of your loyalty in government.
Government may not be the enemy, but it is certainly not our friend.

Somewhere Grover Norquist is smiling.

Somewhere... after using his GPS system to find his office...
arriving via the interstate highway system
...sitting in a tempur-pedic chair...
...cushions held in place with velcro....
as he types away an email and sends it over the internet....
while his doctor charts his genetic makeup for intervention...
and refills his prescription of a drug created from basic NIH research...


Grover is hard at work writing a piece claiming that the problem is government.

 

[The Rabbi]

Well sure. Now we're agreeing that government has a role in creating wealth and debating the details of that fact.

you could add The Department of Defense, which offers a macro version of the private property protections offered by the patent office.

No, you couldn't.
The percentage of defense expenditures that actually secures private property is tiny.

really now? All defense spending protects private property.

But it cannot create wealth.

You agreed that government create's wealth not more than two posts ago. Please try to keep your bullshit straight.

OK. Let me clarify for your feeble brain:
Gov't does not create wealth. It can create conditions conducive to creating wealth, like patents, standardized currency and judicial systems. But that is not the same thing.

 

[The Rabbi]

You mean that the government created no wealth during WW2?

Discoveries by the NIH have not created wealth?
Innovations at NASA have not created wealth?
Technology spillover from the Defense Department hasn't create wealth? (think on that last one before you answer - and remember where we're having this discussion).

NASA bleeds money. That's why the space program is being defunded.

They also create technology.



So the government creates technologies and the private sector profits from them.

Let me ask you: Do you think that supports your claim? If so, please think again.

WW II ...The federal government did not create wealth. The federal government contracted with private enterprise to build ships planes, land vehicles, weapons, munitions, etc. The wealth was created in the earnings of the companies and the employees.

Without government, those contracts would never have been signed. The government created those contracts and fostered the growth it created.

Now one can say but for the government contract, there would not have been the income from the construction of needed war material. However, it was not as though these companies were sitting with empty factories waiting for government to hand them work to do.

What the fuck are you talking about? Cap utilization was about 50% when the war started! Of course there were empty factories.

We call that "The Great Depression". Perhaps you've heard of it. And when the war started, hundreds of new factories were built, which created wealth.

I'm amazed how far rightwingnuts will go to deny the clear and obvious facts in front of them - to the extent they will claim that there weren't empty factories in 1940

Precious.

Govt doesnt create technology.

Anyway, how did those factories get built? Who paid to build them? Where did the money come from? It had to be taxed from existing income earners or borrowed, crowding out private entities.
That is the part the Left always forgets. The money has to come from somewhere because Gov't cannot create it.

 

[JRK]

You mean that the government created no wealth during WW2?

Discoveries by the NIH have not created wealth?
Innovations at NASA have not created wealth?
Technology spillover from the Defense Department hasn't create wealth? (think on that last one before you answer - and remember where we're having this discussion).

NASA bleeds money. That's why the space program is being defunded.

They also create technology.



So the government creates technologies and the private sector profits from them.

Let me ask you: Do you think that supports your claim? If so, please think again.

WW II ...The federal government did not create wealth. The federal government contracted with private enterprise to build ships planes, land vehicles, weapons, munitions, etc. The wealth was created in the earnings of the companies and the employees.

Without government, those contracts would never have been signed. The government created those contracts and fostered the growth it created.

Now one can say but for the government contract, there would not have been the income from the construction of needed war material. However, it was not as though these companies were sitting with empty factories waiting for government to hand them work to do.

What the fuck are you talking about? Cap utilization was about 50% when the war started! Of course there were empty factories.

We call that "The Great Depression". Perhaps you've heard of it. And when the war started, hundreds of new factories were built, which created wealth.

I'm amazed how far rightwingnuts will go to deny the clear and obvious facts in front of them - to the extent they will claim that there weren't empty factories in 1940

Precious.

People that wealth was created by the tax payer
nothing else, no-one else
I do not care if it was pre war
post war

The tax payer foots the bill
The US govt does nothing but collect and re distribute
and how it does it dictates how much wealth it destroys
The Stimulus is the perfect example