If Hobby Lobby wins...

[Quantum Windbag]

The constant references to Plan B and ella as abortion-causing pills frustrates Susan Wood, a professor of health policy at George Washington University and a former assistant commissioner for women's health at the FDA.

"It is not only factually incorrect, it is downright misleading. These products are not abortifacients," she says. "And their only connection to abortion is that they can prevent the need for one."

That's not a universal medical opinion, however.

"It would be my preference that none of these products had any potential to cause abortion or post-fertilization effects — that would be my preference — but we don't know that," says Gene Rudd, senior vice president of the Christian Medical and Dental Associations and a practicing OB-GYN in Bristol, Tenn.

That's not really the case anymore.

For years, scientists knew the pills, particularly Plan B, were highly effective in preventing pregnancy after unprotected sex but weren't exactly sure how they managed that. "It wasn't really clear whether it worked before ovulation or after ovulation," says Wood.

Scientists did know the drug worked primarily by preventing ovulation. It stops an egg from being released from a woman's ovary and thus prevents any chance of fertilization and pregnancy. But they also thought the drug might make it more difficult for a fertilized egg to implant in a woman's uterus.

Technically, that's not an abortion, says Wood.

"We know that about half of fertilized eggs never stick around. They just pass out of the woman's body," she says. "An abortifacient is something that interrupts an established pregnancy."

But people like Rudd worry that even if what the drugs do is not technically abortion, it's still objectionable if it happens after fertilization.

But it turns out, at least when it comes to Plan B, there is now fairly definitive research that shows the only way it works is by preventing ovulation, and therefore, fertilization.

"We've learned a lot about how these drugs work," says Diana Blithe, a biochemist and contraceptive researcher at the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development. "I think it's time to revise our speculations about how things might work in view of data that show how things do work."

For example, says Blithe, a study published just last year led the International Federation of Gynecology and Obstetrics to declare that Plan B does not inhibit implantation. And some abortion opponents in the medical community are beginning to accept that conclusion.

Morning-After Pills Don't Cause Abortion, Studies Say : Shots - Health News : NPR

But if the FDA says it isnt....wait...the FDA never says if it is an abortificiant or not so where are you getting this "translation"?

Funny how there isn't actually a study in there that actually backs up any claims made.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Many believe that life begins at conception and a fertilized egg is life.

It is not about birth control pills.
It's about Plan B - the morning after pill and the week after pill.

And what's wrong with a pill? If Hobby Lobby is about profit, they should know that it costs a hell of a lot less to pay for Plan B than it does to pay for maternity leave, etc., for their employees.

Hobby Lobby gets to be "about" whatever they want to be about, profit or otherwise. That's how private property works.

Why does a business get to dictate the religious freedom of its employees?

They don't. Employees are free to practice any religion they like just as they are free to obtain any insurance they like. No employee is forced to take the insurance plan offered by Hobby Lobby. Of course, the government is trying to force HB to offer a particular insurance plan...on that violates THEIR religious freedom, which is why the government is going to lose this one.

Well ... if they want to do business in the United States, they have to follow the laws of the United States.

And if they want to do business in Russia, they'll have to follow Russian laws.
See how that works?

Now, I don't want to businesses overly burden and I do like the idea of a businessperson being able to conduct their business in a way that reflects their own values...

But to argue that they get to do whatever they want because it's their business and their property .... that's just juvenile.

 

[eflatminor]

And what's wrong with a pill? If Hobby Lobby is about profit, they should know that it costs a hell of a lot less to pay for Plan B than it does to pay for maternity leave, etc., for their employees.

Hobby Lobby gets to be "about" whatever they want to be about, profit or otherwise. That's how private property works.

Why does a business get to dictate the religious freedom of its employees?

They don't. Employees are free to practice any religion they like just as they are free to obtain any insurance they like. No employee is forced to take the insurance plan offered by Hobby Lobby. Of course, the government is trying to force HB to offer a particular insurance plan...on that violates THEIR religious freedom, which is why the government is going to lose this one.

Well ... if they want to do business in the United States, they have to follow the laws of the United States.

Only if those laws are Constitutional, which we'll know in about month is not the case.

And if they want to do business in Russia, they'll have to follow Russian laws.
See how that works?

Thanks for the stinking red herring.

Now, I don't want to businesses overly burden and I do like the idea of a businessperson being able to conduct their business in a way that reflects their own values....

Then you ought to have no problem with a business offering perks to their employees that they deem appropriate as long as those employees are free to reject said perks, which is exactly the case with HB and their healthcare insurance plan.

But to argue that they get to do whatever they want because it's their business and their property .... that's just juvenile

When someone argues that a business "can do whatever it wants", you let us know. Until then, stop with the juvenile bullshit. We can all see straight though it.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Once again, the insurance policy is part of the employee's compensation package and it has a value part of which can be exchanged for birth control.

That is no different than the employee's paycheck.

Hobby Lobby is objecting to having to provide compensation that can be used to acquire a product they object to and yet they already provide that compensation.

 

[natstew]

Yeah they are, they believe that Plan B is an Abortificant drug and its not. So now we have to deal with not only people religion but what they believe things to be and not what they actually are.

Why does the FDA say it is?

Linking to a 30 page report is slick (throw shit against the wall) but where does it say that?

Not as slick as passing a 1400 page Bill without reading it!

 

[ClosedCaption]

The constant references to Plan B and ella as abortion-causing pills frustrates Susan Wood, a professor of health policy at George Washington University and a former assistant commissioner for women's health at the FDA.

"It is not only factually incorrect, it is downright misleading. These products are not abortifacients," she says. "And their only connection to abortion is that they can prevent the need for one."

That's not a universal medical opinion, however.

"It would be my preference that none of these products had any potential to cause abortion or post-fertilization effects — that would be my preference — but we don't know that," says Gene Rudd, senior vice president of the Christian Medical and Dental Associations and a practicing OB-GYN in Bristol, Tenn.

That's not really the case anymore.

For years, scientists knew the pills, particularly Plan B, were highly effective in preventing pregnancy after unprotected sex but weren't exactly sure how they managed that. "It wasn't really clear whether it worked before ovulation or after ovulation," says Wood.

Scientists did know the drug worked primarily by preventing ovulation. It stops an egg from being released from a woman's ovary and thus prevents any chance of fertilization and pregnancy. But they also thought the drug might make it more difficult for a fertilized egg to implant in a woman's uterus.

Technically, that's not an abortion, says Wood.

"We know that about half of fertilized eggs never stick around. They just pass out of the woman's body," she says. "An abortifacient is something that interrupts an established pregnancy."

But people like Rudd worry that even if what the drugs do is not technically abortion, it's still objectionable if it happens after fertilization.

But it turns out, at least when it comes to Plan B, there is now fairly definitive research that shows the only way it works is by preventing ovulation, and therefore, fertilization.

"We've learned a lot about how these drugs work," says Diana Blithe, a biochemist and contraceptive researcher at the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development. "I think it's time to revise our speculations about how things might work in view of data that show how things do work."

For example, says Blithe, a study published just last year led the International Federation of Gynecology and Obstetrics to declare that Plan B does not inhibit implantation. And some abortion opponents in the medical community are beginning to accept that conclusion.

Morning-After Pills Don't Cause Abortion, Studies Say : Shots - Health News : NPR

But if the FDA says it isnt....wait...the FDA never says if it is an abortificiant or not so where are you getting this "translation"?

Funny how there isn't actually a study in there that actually backs up any claims made.

Now, if I link a study will you move the goalposts again and say the study isnt enough either? huh?

 

[NYcarbineer]

they believe that Plan B is an Abortificant drug and its not.

We could argue that all religious beliefs are false. So what?

Not religious beliefs...They dont believe in a fact and instead call that fact something UNFACTUAL and expects everyone to go along with it.

Again, what happens when some Jim Jones wanna be decides he's going to fuck his 12 year old "wife". And tell you "I dont believe shes a child...Shes my wife"

Then what? Do we get to stop playing along then?

It's well established that religious rights can be limited when they run afoul of the law. When that ends,

we will have a theocracy, by definition.

 

[dblack]

Once again, the insurance policy is part of the employee's compensation package and it has a value part of which can be exchanged for birth control.

That is no different than the employee's paycheck.

Then why is it an issue? If there's no difference, where is the justification for mandating insurance at all?

 

[DrDoomNGloom]

The whole ludicrousness of the idea the government can dictate personal policy under the guise of a house resolution or senate bill is just laughable. The family is the business and the views of the family are at the core of the values and principles that make that family what it is. To tell them differently goes against the core values of all Americans, I see most of those who want to tell are the needy and greedy who cannot get things otherwise. While you are the ones telling and taking it is all fine, but what happens when the shoe tide turns and you are the one's being told and taken from. It is always much easier to be the one wanting to take, without forethought to anyone else or any others principles.

So for you libertarians involved in this conversation, aren't you fundamentally by definition supposed to leave me and my beliefs alone instead of forcing yours on me??

 

[eflatminor]

So for you libertarians involved in this conversation, aren't you fundamentally by definition supposed to leave me and my beliefs alone instead of forcing yours on me??

That would be the idea.

Is there a libertarian here attempting to force his ideas or beliefs on you? If so, he ain't a real libertarian!

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Once again, the insurance policy is part of the employee's compensation package and it has a value part of which can be exchanged for birth control.

That is no different than the employee's paycheck.

Hobby Lobby is objecting to having to provide compensation that can be used to acquire a product they object to and yet they already provide that compensation.

Once again, it is different in that the government is requiring the employer to spend their money on it instead of allowing the employee to make a personal choice. One of those is about fredom, the other is about fascism.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Morning-After Pills Don't Cause Abortion, Studies Say : Shots - Health News : NPR

But if the FDA says it isnt....wait...the FDA never says if it is an abortificiant or not so where are you getting this "translation"?

Funny how there isn't actually a study in there that actually backs up any claims made.

Now, if I link a study will you move the goalposts again and say the study isnt enough either? huh?

I clicked every link in the story you posted, this is the only fucking study anywhere.

Contraceptive efficacy of emergency contracept... [Contraception. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI

What does it say? Turns out that I can't actually see that, because they hid it behind a paywall. I can, however, point out what they abstract says.

RESULTS:

Of 388 women attending for LNG-EC, 122 women had intercourse on fertile cycle days according to ultrasound and endocrine findings. At the time of LNG-EC intake, 87 women were in Days -5 to -1 and 35 women were in Day 0 (day of ovulation) or beyond. With the use of the probability of clinical pregnancy reported by Wilcox et al. [N Engl J Med 333 (1995) 1517-1521], expected numbers of pregnancies among the 87 and 35 women were 13 and 7, respectively, while 0 and 6 pregnancies, respectively, occurred.
CONCLUSION:

We conclude that LNG-EC prevents pregnancy only when taken before fertilization of the ovum has occurred.

In case you have a problem understanding English, that is saying it is completely useless as an emergency contraceptive. Why the fuck should people be forced to pay for a pill that you take after you have sex if it only works if you take it before you have sex?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

We could argue that all religious beliefs are false. So what?

Not religious beliefs...They dont believe in a fact and instead call that fact something UNFACTUAL and expects everyone to go along with it.

Again, what happens when some Jim Jones wanna be decides he's going to fuck his 12 year old "wife". And tell you "I dont believe shes a child...Shes my wife"

Then what? Do we get to stop playing along then?

It's well established that religious rights can be limited when they run afoul of the law. When that ends,

we will have a theocracy, by definition.

It is also well established the religious rights can trump the law.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The whole ludicrousness of the idea the government can dictate personal policy under the guise of a house resolution or senate bill is just laughable. The family is the business and the views of the family are at the core of the values and principles that make that family what it is. To tell them differently goes against the core values of all Americans, I see most of those who want to tell are the needy and greedy who cannot get things otherwise. While you are the ones telling and taking it is all fine, but what happens when the shoe tide turns and you are the one's being told and taken from. It is always much easier to be the one wanting to take, without forethought to anyone else or any others principles.

So for you libertarians involved in this conversation, aren't you fundamentally by definition supposed to leave me and my beliefs alone instead of forcing yours on me??

What the fuck?

 

[nodoginnafight]

Hobby Lobby gets to be "about" whatever they want to be about, profit or otherwise. That's how private property works.



They don't. Employees are free to practice any religion they like just as they are free to obtain any insurance they like. No employee is forced to take the insurance plan offered by Hobby Lobby. Of course, the government is trying to force HB to offer a particular insurance plan...on that violates THEIR religious freedom, which is why the government is going to lose this one.

Well ... if they want to do business in the United States, they have to follow the laws of the United States.

Only if those laws are Constitutional, which we'll know in about month is not the case.



Thanks for the stinking red herring.

Now, I don't want to businesses overly burden and I do like the idea of a businessperson being able to conduct their business in a way that reflects their own values....

Then you ought to have no problem with a business offering perks to their employees that they deem appropriate as long as those employees are free to reject said perks, which is exactly the case with HB and their healthcare insurance plan.

But to argue that they get to do whatever they want because it's their business and their property .... that's just juvenile

When someone argues that a business "can do whatever it wants", you let us know. Until then, stop with the juvenile bullshit. We can all see straight though it.

Hobby Lobby gets to be "about" whatever they want to be about, profit or otherwise. That's how private property works.

There ya go

 

[ClosedCaption]

Funny how there isn't actually a study in there that actually backs up any claims made.

Now, if I link a study will you move the goalposts again and say the study isnt enough either? huh?

I clicked every link in the story you posted, this is the only fucking study anywhere.

Contraceptive efficacy of emergency contracept... [Contraception. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI

What does it say? Turns out that I can't actually see that, because they hid it behind a paywall. I can, however, point out what they abstract says.

RESULTS:

Of 388 women attending for LNG-EC, 122 women had intercourse on fertile cycle days according to ultrasound and endocrine findings. At the time of LNG-EC intake, 87 women were in Days -5 to -1 and 35 women were in Day 0 (day of ovulation) or beyond. With the use of the probability of clinical pregnancy reported by Wilcox et al. [N Engl J Med 333 (1995) 1517-1521], expected numbers of pregnancies among the 87 and 35 women were 13 and 7, respectively, while 0 and 6 pregnancies, respectively, occurred.
CONCLUSION:

We conclude that LNG-EC prevents pregnancy only when taken before fertilization of the ovum has occurred.

In case you have a problem understanding English, that is saying it is completely useless as an emergency contraceptive. Why the fuck should people be forced to pay for a pill that you take after you have sex if it only works if you take it before you have sex?

Great at least you stopped saying there isnt a study out there because you found it.

Regardless of what you believe about whether its useless or not the fact remains that it is not an abortificiant and Hobby Lobby wants everyone to ignore reality and play pretend with what they BELIEVE it is not what it REALLY is.

See you think if you yell a lot and change the subject then I'll forget. Nope.

Now if I link to a study that says its not will you accept the word of scientists then or nah?

 

[mamooth]

So if I think the mininum wage, social security withholding, environmental regs and safety regs violate my free-market-cult religious beliefs, can my business can opt out of those as well?

If not, why the wild hypocritical double standards?

I have no idea, other than a massive delusion that seems to have infected every progressive hack in the country.

You melt down amusingly when your hypocrisy is mocked.

And I'm torn as to whether I should keep playing poke-the-loony with you.

Oh, I thank all the loons willing to use the term "statist", since it instantly reveals the speaker as a crank whiner. That saves a lot of time for the reader.

 

[eflatminor]

Well ... if they want to do business in the United States, they have to follow the laws of the United States.

Only if those laws are Constitutional, which we'll know in about month is not the case.



Thanks for the stinking red herring.



Then you ought to have no problem with a business offering perks to their employees that they deem appropriate as long as those employees are free to reject said perks, which is exactly the case with HB and their healthcare insurance plan.



When someone argues that a business "can do whatever it wants", you let us know. Until then, stop with the juvenile bullshit. We can all see straight though it.

Hobby Lobby gets to be "about" whatever they want to be about, profit or otherwise. That's how private property works.

There ya go

Wow, really? You equate my suggesting that company can be about profits, about service, about their employees or anything else they choose to focus on with the notion that a company should be able to do "whatever it wants"?

Really? Are you that obtuse?

Let me be clear. I in no way believe a company should be able to force anyone to do anything. Same goes for an individual. Same goes for government. However, if a company wants to do business in such a way that offers voluntary choice to its customers and employees, I'm absolutely fine with that regardless of what they choose to focus on or what they choose to sell or provide to their employees in the way of compensation...and no, that doesn't mean doing "whatever they want".

Grow the fuck up.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Now, if I link a study will you move the goalposts again and say the study isnt enough either? huh?

I clicked every link in the story you posted, this is the only fucking study anywhere.

Contraceptive efficacy of emergency contracept... [Contraception. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI

What does it say? Turns out that I can't actually see that, because they hid it behind a paywall. I can, however, point out what they abstract says.

RESULTS:

Of 388 women attending for LNG-EC, 122 women had intercourse on fertile cycle days according to ultrasound and endocrine findings. At the time of LNG-EC intake, 87 women were in Days -5 to -1 and 35 women were in Day 0 (day of ovulation) or beyond. With the use of the probability of clinical pregnancy reported by Wilcox et al. [N Engl J Med 333 (1995) 1517-1521], expected numbers of pregnancies among the 87 and 35 women were 13 and 7, respectively, while 0 and 6 pregnancies, respectively, occurred.
CONCLUSION:

We conclude that LNG-EC prevents pregnancy only when taken before fertilization of the ovum has occurred.

In case you have a problem understanding English, that is saying it is completely useless as an emergency contraceptive. Why the fuck should people be forced to pay for a pill that you take after you have sex if it only works if you take it before you have sex?

Great at least you stopped saying there isnt a study out there because you found it.

Regardless of what you believe about whether its useless or not the fact remains that it is not an abortificiant and Hobby Lobby wants everyone to ignore reality and play pretend with what they BELIEVE it is not what it REALLY is.

See you think if you yell a lot and change the subject then I'll forget. Nope.

Now if I link to a study that says its not will you accept the word of scientists then or nah?

I linked to the FDA saying that Plan B prevents the implantation of fertilized eggs, you linked to a story that lies about a study that says that Plan B works only if you take it before you have sex. Your position is that the government can mandate Plan B because it will help women after they have sex. My position is that the science is unclear.

Who looks like an idiot?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Once again, the insurance policy is part of the employee's compensation package and it has a value part of which can be exchanged for birth control.

That is no different than the employee's paycheck.

Hobby Lobby is objecting to having to provide compensation that can be used to acquire a product they object to and yet they already provide that compensation.

Once again, it is different in that the government is requiring the employer to spend their money on it instead of allowing the employee to make a personal choice. One of those is about fredom, the other is about fascism.

Like I said awhile ago, bigotry is the new liberty.

Businesses are required to spend their money on all sorts of government regulation and only a few nuts on the fringe think it's fascism.

Where I used to work they once changed the usage of a building and as a consequence had to add a 2nd restroom so they'd have men's and women's.

To you that's fascism, because you're a nut.