If Hobby Lobby wins...

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Play chess Gramps think ahead 2 steps

You're not playing chess. Pin the tail on the donkey perhaps but certainly not chess.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Play chess Gramps think ahead 2 steps

You're not playing chess. Pin the tail on the donkey perhaps but certainly not chess.

I think he's TRYING to play "pin the straw man on the honkey..."

 

[ClosedCaption]

Play chess Gramps think ahead 2 steps

You're not playing chess. Pin the tail on the donkey perhaps but certainly not chess.

So thats an outright refusal then?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

One of the things that Hobby Lobby is trying to use as a point is that they are a "family business", and don't want their "family views" affected by having to provide something for their 13,000 employees that they don't like.

Shit....................under that logic, the Waltons own Wal-Mart, and it could be considered "family owned" as well. Does that mean the largest employer of people in the US should also be allowed to stop paying for certain items and procedures for their employees as well?

Sorry...............but if you are a FOR PROFIT corporation, then there is not any reason that the corporation should be able to claim religious rights like an individual.

Corporations are OWNED by people, but they aren't people in and of themselves.

What about non-incorporated companies? Partnerships? The mandate applies to them as well. Should they also be required to follow the mandate against their will?

The provisions for employers with 50 employees or less are different, and not subject to the same rules as large companies.

Most companies with 50+ full time employees are incorporated.

Most is not all.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You're right.............the rules are different for those businesses that have less than 50 employees.

Hobby Lobby employs around 13,000 nationwide.

My crystal ball says Hobby Lobby loses in the Supreme Court, cancels 13,000 employees health insurance plans and pays the fine. Who won and who lost?

Well, under the ACA, even if Hobby Lobby doesn't want to pay for their insurance and take the fine, those who are employed by them (probably making minimum wage) will qualify for subsidies under the ACA, and because they bought their own insurance, it will follow them wherever they choose to be employed, opening up the possibility that they can find a better job and tell HL to go get bent, because they don't have to depend on HL for their healthcare.

Lots of people would like better jobs, but because of the (minimal) health care provided by their employers, they can't afford to go looking for fear of losing the job they have.

I see you are great at rationalizing based on nothing other than your hatred of all things Christian.

Here are a few facts for you.

Hobby Lobby starts their employees at $14 an hour.

Hobby Lobby Raises Minimum Wage to $14 for Full-Time Employees

They also have a health care plan that more than meets the minimum standards for Obamacare, other than covering four (4) antiabortionists. That means that, if they drop coverage, their employees will be forced into the exchange, and be ineligible for subsidies.

But you will still count it as a win because you get to impose your religious beliefs on others.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

here's the hypocrisy about Hobby Lobby (where I will never shop again)...

They want the right to not pay for certain forms of birth control because those are kind of like abortions if you are really imaginative. No one is actually making them pay for abortions.

But yet they buy 93% of their products from China, a country where they've performed 300 MILLION abortions in the last 40 years, many of them coerced under the draconian "one child" policy.

When was the last time you shopped at Hobby Lobby? How did you stand listening to the Christian music they pipe into all their stores while paying their employees more than Obama thinks people need to be paid?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Heres the rub tho. What if more employers start imposing more "beliefs"? And a few turn to hundreds? The rule still applies that no one HAS to work there but many will have to work somewhere which means some will be exposed to it.

Does the worker lose their right to the CEO's belief?

This has nothing to do with the question before the Supremes.

The question before the Supreme Court is whether the U.S. Government can force Hobby Lobby owners to violate their First Amendment Right to practice their religion or not!

The A.C.A. is already Unconstitutional because it taxes us to live, therefore violating our right to life, liberty, and our pursuit of happiness. Any infringement, however small, is a violation.

SCOTUS says you're wrong.

SCOTUS also says that the 14th Amendment doesn't say what it says.

 

[Uncensored2008]

So thats an outright refusal then?

A refusal to engage in your paranoid delusion? Appears so......

When liberty wins, democrats lose.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Right. So I'll post this again and maybe you'll scream "no facts"



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/06/h...ion-science-suggests.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Oh, and NOW we have an examination by the Times. Well, fuck all those doctors out there. The NY Times examined it, so THAT'S "real science".

Two words for you: hari kiri. Look into it.

No, Actual doctors and scientists looked into it and said its not. Hobby Lobby believes it is even tho it isnt. You cant defend it so you try to get runner up in the category of Best Zinger by a stupid bitch. Congrats

Actual doctors and scientist have also said it is.

But don't let the fact that science doesn't have all the answers change the fact that you use it to prove you are always wrong.

 

[ClosedCaption]

So thats an outright refusal then?

A refusal to engage in your paranoid delusion? Appears so......

When liberty wins, democrats lose.

Protecting your girl again I see

 

[ClosedCaption]

Oh, and NOW we have an examination by the Times. Well, fuck all those doctors out there. The NY Times examined it, so THAT'S "real science".

Two words for you: hari kiri. Look into it.

No, Actual doctors and scientists looked into it and said its not. Hobby Lobby believes it is even tho it isnt. You cant defend it so you try to get runner up in the category of Best Zinger by a stupid bitch. Congrats

Actual doctors and scientist have also said it is.

But don't let the fact that science doesn't have all the answers change the fact that you use it to prove you are always wrong.

No they havent because you're missing proof. I backed up my statement with links. You have nothing and you just decided lying about it is easier

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if they win doesn't that effectively strike down the entire employer mandate portion of the law?

Perhaps. Depends on the specifics of their ruling. However, that in NO WAY opens the door for single payer...not without a Constitutional amendment.

Good luck with that.

When the SC ruled the individual mandate was Constitutional by calling it a tax (despite the government's insistence it wasn't), they effectively drew a line in the sand saying to the government "You can't go there" under the commerce or general welfare clause. You can tax, but you can't run the market for healthcare. Of course, the people could overrule that finding with an amendment to the constitution, which ain't gonna happen.

I don't follow your logic at all.

There would be nothing unconstitutional about raising taxes to expand medicare for everyone.

I still have no idea why they didn't do that, other than Obama lying about not raising taxes.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I haven't been following it that closely either, but IMO granting religious opposition an opt-out would be the worst possible outcome. It should either be struck down for everyone, or upheld for everyone.

the only opt out they are asking for is providing abortion causing drugs.

Is obamacare only about free abortions? I certainly hope not.

That's not the issue. An opt-out would be bad because if violates the basic principle of equal rights. We should all have to follow the same laws.

Which explains why no one can opt out of the draft by claiming conscientious objector status.

Actually, it only explains why you are wrong.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You are all aware that a pill that terminates a fertilized egg is not the same as a surgical abortion, right?

If Christians want to cut down on abortions, contraception and birth-control pills should be made available to everyone.

Many believe that life begins at conception and a fertilized egg is life.

It is not about birth control pills.
It's about Plan B - the morning after pill and the week after pill.

And what's wrong with a pill? If Hobby Lobby is about profit, they should know that it costs a hell of a lot less to pay for Plan B than it does to pay for maternity leave, etc., for their employees.

Why does a business get to dictate the religious freedom of its employees?

Unlike you, the bottom line for Hobby Lobby is not money.

 

[dblack]

the only opt out they are asking for is providing abortion causing drugs.

Is obamacare only about free abortions? I certainly hope not.

That's not the issue. An opt-out would be bad because if violates the basic principle of equal rights. We should all have to follow the same laws.

Which explains why no one can opt out of the draft by claiming conscientious objector status.

Actually, it only explains why you are wrong.

Nope. It just explains why a draft, and attached exemptions, are as wrong as the mandate at issue.

 

[mamooth]

So if I think the mininum wage, social security withholding, environmental regs and safety regs violate my free-market-cult religious beliefs, can my business can opt out of those as well?

If not, why the wild hypocritical double standards?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Heres the rub tho. What if more employers start imposing more "beliefs"? And a few turn to hundreds? The rule still applies that no one HAS to work there but many will have to work somewhere which means some will be exposed to it.

Does the worker lose their right to the CEO's belief?

Hobby Lobby is not imposing their beliefs onto anyone.
No one who works at Hobby Lobby has lost their rights. It's the owner of the Hobby Lobby who has lost their right. It is sold at Walgreens for 49.99. They can get it for free at any Planned Parenthood clinic.
The people that work at Hobby Lobby can pay for it themselves, just like they are doing now. They could also get an additional private insurance that does pay for the morning after pill or the week after pill.
It is the Feds who passed this Plan B law that has violated the 1st Amendment.

Yeah they are, they believe that Plan B is an Abortificant drug and its not. So now we have to deal with not only people religion but what they believe things to be and not what they actually are.

Why does the FDA say it is?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Then whats stopping them from requiring everyone to say the lords prayer before work? Or have a certain diet?

Could any other owner force his beliefs on his employees in other ways? Could the owner who doesnt believe in prescription meds opt out of it all together and argue for "natural healing" methods? Could a vegan make their stores meat free? Even their employees lunches?

Where does it stop? Or a better question, WHAT makes it stop?

It will never stop. The goal is to remake our nation, "conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal, into a theocratic plutocracy where only the 'First Estate" (The Clergy) and "Second Estate" (The 1% & Military Leadership) enjoy the blessings of liberty.

The rest of the nation will pay all the taxes and toil without social security, health care or dignity. Their children will never afford higher education and with the repeal of child labor laws will begin to toil at earlier and earlier ages. The perfect dystopia in the minds and hearts of the callous conservatives.

How might we make it stop?

It maybe too late. The United States Supreme Court no longer believes in the values which lead us to the nation described by President Lincoln. In fact many fellow travelers of the New Right (Reich?) have already begun the effort to rewrite history. See any thread posted by PoliticalChic and those who thank her as a leader within the Ministry of Truth.

Damn, that was an emotional argument. Why don't you try some facts? Is it because you don't have any facts that support your position?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If it's an employees religious freedom to have contraception covered by their health insurance, then an employees' religious freedom is in jeopardy. You can argue that employees don't believe that, but the one thing that history has taught us is that religious beliefs are abitrary and can be used to justify even the most atrocious acts. Auto de fe and the like.

Religious morality is subjective to the individual. A for-profit corporation is not a church. God doesn't care about Hobby Lobby. This is a bullshit case. Rich fucks just don't want any wealth to trickle down to their employees, and they are using "religious freedom" as an argument to make sure of that.

So if a corporation can object to any laws based on religious principle, and religious principle can be made up out of thin air (Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard, Moses, etc.), then a corporation can create their own religion with one of the main tenets being that minimum wage is the work of Satan, and oppose paying their employees what the law demands.

If Hobby Lobby wins and corporations are legally the same as churches, will they also be taxed like churches?

Positive rights exist only in the minds of statist asshole progressives.

 

[emilynghiem]

When you include the "consent" of the 12 year old in the equation,
and the "consent" and the beliefs of the parents, and the "consent"
of others reporting child and sexual abuse,
then you are treating all beliefs EQUALLY in making a decision.

Likewise, if ALL conflicts involving a 'religious belief" were resolved
by CONSENSUS among the parties in dispute, then you could solve any problem.

Either agree on a solution, or agree to separate solutions.

If someone has a conflict because they are "imposing or projecting CONTROL ISSUES"
then that will come out in the process. And resolving that "control issue" becomes part of the solution. All conflicts can be resolved one way or another by getting to the root conflict.

they believe that Plan B is an Abortificant drug and its not.

We could argue that all religious beliefs are false. So what?

Not religious beliefs...They dont believe in a fact and instead call that fact something UNFACTUAL and expects everyone to go along with it.

Again, what happens when some Jim Jones wanna be decides he's going to fuck his 12 year old "wife". And tell you "I dont believe shes a child...Shes my wife"

Then what? Do we get to stop playing along then?

Here, the people running the company and the employees receiving the benefits
don't agree on beliefs or policy.

So to reach a CONSENSUS, what if people paid for their own birth control
and health care if they didn't agree with what the company offered.

A lot of people don't buy the insurance offered by the company
if it doesn't cover what they need given the cost of the policy.

So they SOLVE THE PROBLEM by paying for the program of their choice
outside the company. Problem solved.