If Hobby Lobby wins...

[Uncensored2008]

And what's wrong with a pill? If Hobby Lobby is about profit, they should know that it costs a hell of a lot less to pay for Plan B than it does to pay for maternity leave, etc., for their employees.

Why does a business get to dictate the religious freedom of its employees?

It doesn't matter.

You leftists want to argue the nuance of what the drug does, but that is irrelevant.

Plan B violates the corporate ethics of Hobby Lobby. Unless the government can show a legal basis to force them to violate those ethics, then the court must rule in favor of HL.

Be clear, I am a HUGE fan of Plan B - I do NOT view it as abortion, and in fact see it as the reason that abortion is no longer needed. Rape and incest victims KNOW that they have been raped, and can stop the process - girls who got drunk and fucked the ugly guy KNOW they had sex, and can take it to keep from getting pregnant - there is ZERO excuse for abortion with Plan B.

Even so, HL has EVERY right to refuse to pay for something they find abhorrent, and my view, or the view of the party that declares liberty to be "bigotry," has no bearing on it.

 

[Katzndogz]

Women who have had abortions can work at HL, probably many do. Women are perfectly free to work at HL if they take birth control pills. They don't have to make a choice to have the employer's religion imposed on them. No one is imposing religion on them. HL just refuses to pay for four methods of chemical abortion. Women have options. Refuse to accept employer paid insurance and go on the exchange. Pay for their own abortion drugs. Find another job if they absolutely have to have these drugs and none of the other 16 other drugs will do and they want someone else to pay for it.

 

[ClosedCaption]

Hobby Lobby is not imposing their beliefs onto anyone.
No one who works at Hobby Lobby has lost their rights. It's the owner of the Hobby Lobby who has lost their right. It is sold at Walgreens for 49.99. They can get it for free at any Planned Parenthood clinic.
The people that work at Hobby Lobby can pay for it themselves, just like they are doing now. They could also get an additional private insurance that does pay for the morning after pill or the week after pill.
It is the Feds who passed this Plan B law that has violated the 1st Amendment.

Yeah they are, they believe that Plan B is an Abortificant drug and its not. So now we have to deal with not only people religion but what they believe things to be and not what they actually are.

Yeah you have to deal with what people believe. That's specifically why the First amendment exists so that the government cant interfere with a person's beliefs. Freedom of conscience. We are free to speak out. We are free to exercise our religious without government interference. we are free to petition our government for redress from injustice.

This law is unjust.

And when some cult asshole believes a 12 year old is his wife then will you be "anti-freedom" then or say leave that guy alone

 

[Katzndogz]

The minute a company owned by atheists has to pay for faith healing, you'll see this law overturned.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Yeah they are, they believe that Plan B is an Abortificant drug and its not. So now we have to deal with not only people religion but what they believe things to be and not what they actually are.

You democrats believe that "liberty is bigotry" (your words) and must be eradicated. That is a FAR more onerous problem to deal with.

 

[KNB]

If it's an employees religious freedom to have contraception covered by their health insurance, then an employees' religious freedom is in jeopardy. You can argue that employees don't believe that, but the one thing that history has taught us is that religious beliefs are abitrary and can be used to justify even the most atrocious acts. Auto de fe and the like.

Religious morality is subjective to the individual. A for-profit corporation is not a church. God doesn't care about Hobby Lobby. This is a bullshit case. Rich fucks just don't want any wealth to trickle down to their employees, and they are using "religious freedom" as an argument to make sure of that.

So if a corporation can object to any laws based on religious principle, and religious principle can be made up out of thin air (Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard, Moses, etc.), then a corporation can create their own religion with one of the main tenets being that minimum wage is the work of Satan, and oppose paying their employees what the law demands.

If Hobby Lobby wins and corporations are legally the same as churches, will they also be taxed like churches?

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Then whats stopping them from requiring everyone to say the lords prayer before work? Or have a certain diet?

Could any other owner force his beliefs on his employees in other ways? Could the owner who doesnt believe in prescription meds opt out of it all together and argue for "natural healing" methods? Could a vegan make their stores meat free? Even their employees lunches?

Where does it stop? Or a better question, WHAT makes it stop?

It will never stop. The goal is to remake our nation, "conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal, into a theocratic plutocracy where only the 'First Estate" (The Clergy) and "Second Estate" (The 1% & Military Leadership) enjoy the blessings of liberty.

The rest of the nation will pay all the taxes and toil without social security, health care or dignity. Their children will never afford higher education and with the repeal of child labor laws will begin to toil at earlier and earlier ages. The perfect dystopia in the minds and hearts of the callous conservatives.

How might we make it stop?

It maybe too late. The United States Supreme Court no longer believes in the values which lead us to the nation described by President Lincoln. In fact many fellow travelers of the New Right (Reich?) have already begun the effort to rewrite history. See any thread posted by PoliticalChic and those who thank her as a leader within the Ministry of Truth.

Lolololol

What a bunch of tinfoil hat wearing nonsense.

I think maybe you ate too many paint chips as a child.

 

[Avatar4321]

If it's an employees religious freedom to have contraception covered by their health insurance, then an employees' religious freedom is in jeopardy. You can argue that employees don't believe that, but the one thing that history has taught us is that religious beliefs are abitrary and can be used to justify even the most atrocious acts. Auto de fe and the like.

Religious morality is subjective to the individual. A for-profit corporation is not a church. God doesn't care about Hobby Lobby. This is a bullshit case. Rich fucks just don't want any wealth to trickle down to their employees, and they are using "religious freedom" as an argument to make sure of that.

So if a corporation can object to any laws based on religious principle, and religious principle can be made up out of thin air (Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard, Moses, etc.), then a corporation can create their own religion with one of the main tenets being that minimum wage is the work of Satan, and oppose paying their employees what the law demands.

If Hobby Lobby wins and corporations are legally the same as churches, will they also be taxed like churches?

Why would it be an employees religious freedom to force someone else to pay for their wants? And the First amendment would prevent that person from being able to use the government to force those beliefs on an employer due to the current interpretations of the establishment clause.

 

[KNB]

It isn't freedom to "force" someone else to pay for something. It is the company's obligation to its employees because they have the means to do so. Rich fucks just don't want to spend any money on their employees and are using "religious freedom" as a flimsy excuse to get away with it.

Hobby Lobby is NOT a church. "God" is not within their walls. It is a business. Businesses are not churches, but churches are businesses. If Hobby Lobby wins and corporations have religious freedom like churches, then will corporations be taxed like churches?

 

[Uncensored2008]

If it's an employees religious freedom to have contraception covered by their health insurance, then an employees' religious freedom is in jeopardy.

My religion says I must have a new Bugatti each year. Guess my Employer better pony up the 1.2 million.

See, you cannot demand that others GIVE you something to meet your religious needs, only that they cannot FORCE you to PAY for things that go against them.

This isn't that hard of a concept.

 

[dblack]

It is the company's obligation to its employees because they have the means to do so.

Is this to be taken as a general legal principle?

 

[KNB]

It is the company's obligation to its employees because they have the means to do so.

Is this to be taken as a general legal principle?

No, it's a general MORAL principle. The employees are the reason that these corporations are so successful. The corporation then has a moral obligation to share that wealth with its employees. Thus "a rising tide lifts all boats". Right now, the rising tide only lifts the boats of people who can afford a boat.

 

[dblack]

It is the company's obligation to its employees because they have the means to do so.

Is this to be taken as a general legal principle?

No, it's a general MORAL principle. The employees are the reason that these corporations are so successful. The corporation then has a moral obligation to share that wealth with its employees. Thus "a rising tide lifts all boats". Right now, the rising tide only lifts the boats of people who can afford a boat.

But we're talking about legal obligation. How does it translate, in your view?

 

[ClosedCaption]

Yeah they are, they believe that Plan B is an Abortificant drug and its not. So now we have to deal with not only people religion but what they believe things to be and not what they actually are.

You democrats believe that "liberty is bigotry" (your words) and must be eradicated. That is a FAR more onerous problem to deal with.

they believe that Plan B is an Abortificant drug and its not.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Then whats stopping them from requiring everyone to say the lords prayer before work? Or have a certain diet?

Could any other owner force his beliefs on his employees in other ways? Could the owner who doesnt believe in prescription meds opt out of it all together and argue for "natural healing" methods? Could a vegan make their stores meat free? Even their employees lunches?

Where does it stop? Or a better question, WHAT makes it stop?

It will never stop. The goal is to remake our nation, "conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal, into a theocratic plutocracy where only the 'First Estate" (The Clergy) and "Second Estate" (The 1% & Military Leadership) enjoy the blessings of liberty.

The rest of the nation will pay all the taxes and toil without social security, health care or dignity. Their children will never afford higher education and with the repeal of child labor laws will begin to toil at earlier and earlier ages. The perfect dystopia in the minds and hearts of the callous conservatives.

How might we make it stop?

It maybe too late. The United States Supreme Court no longer believes in the values which lead us to the nation described by President Lincoln. In fact many fellow travelers of the New Right (Reich?) have already begun the effort to rewrite history. See any thread posted by PoliticalChic and those who thank her as a leader within the Ministry of Truth.

liberalism is a 'religion' too.......how might we make it stop.....? or is it too late...?

 

[dblack]

Yeah they are, they believe that Plan B is an Abortificant drug and its not. So now we have to deal with not only people religion but what they believe things to be and not what they actually are.

You democrats believe that "liberty is bigotry" (your words) and must be eradicated. That is a FAR more onerous problem to deal with.

they believe that Plan B is an Abortificant drug and its not.

We could argue that all religious beliefs are false. So what?

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

It is the company's obligation to its employees because they have the means to do so.

Is this to be taken as a general legal principle?

No, it's a general MORAL principle. The employees are the reason that these corporations are so successful. The corporation then has a moral obligation to share that wealth with its employees. Thus "a rising tide lifts all boats". Right now, the rising tide only lifts the boats of people who can afford a boat.

Sounds more like a "gimmie because I want" principle

 

[ClosedCaption]

Yeah they are, they believe that Plan B is an Abortificant drug and its not. So now we have to deal with not only people religion but what they believe things to be and not what they actually are.

Yeah you have to deal with what people believe. That's specifically why the First amendment exists so that the government cant interfere with a person's beliefs. Freedom of conscience. We are free to speak out. We are free to exercise our religious without government interference. we are free to petition our government for redress from injustice.

This law is unjust.

And when some cult asshole believes a 12 year old is his wife then will you be "anti-freedom" then or say leave that guy alone

...and that folks is the problem with going along with what someone believes vs what things are.

 

[emilynghiem]

What keeps companies OUT of your private lives and policies
is to keep private policies OUT OF GOVT AND LEGAL MANDATES
that were IMPOSED ON THESE COMPANIES.

No one is pushing for govt to impose prayer requirements on companies
so that companies impose prayer on employees.

This imposition only happened because the federal mandates were imposed
on the company. Had that not happened, NO, the company had no plans or interest
in dictating what the employees did or did not do.

Then whats stopping them from requiring everyone to say the lords prayer before work? Or have a certain diet?

Could any other owner force his beliefs on his employees in other ways? Could the owner who doesnt believe in prescription meds opt out of it all together and argue for "natural healing" methods? Could a vegan make their stores meat free? Even their employees lunches?

Where does it stop? Or a better question, WHAT makes it stop?

What makes oppression stop is people respecting each other's rights and beliefs EQUALLY.

If the employers and employees follow the SAME policies of respect for religious freedom that they want for themselves, we wouldn't be seeing these lawsuits.

The companies WANT the employees to have their own policies and pay for them.
They aren't trying to stop them from doing that in private! they just don't want THEIR COMPANY to be forced into participating or paying for such choices that should be personal.

If the employees paid for their own supplies PRIVATELY
then the company would NOT be affected and would have no issue or say.

so NO the company was NOT imposing on employees' private lives
but TRYING TO STAY OUT. it was the FEDERAL MANDATES that forced
this issue on the COMPANY not the other way!

 

[ClosedCaption]

You democrats believe that "liberty is bigotry" (your words) and must be eradicated. That is a FAR more onerous problem to deal with.

they believe that Plan B is an Abortificant drug and its not.

We could argue that all religious beliefs are false. So what?

Not religious beliefs...They dont believe in a fact and instead call that fact something UNFACTUAL and expects everyone to go along with it.

Again, what happens when some Jim Jones wanna be decides he's going to fuck his 12 year old "wife". And tell you "I dont believe shes a child...Shes my wife"

Then what? Do we get to stop playing along then?