If Hobby Lobby wins...

[dblack]

I honestly haven't been studying it closely, but I'd assume it depends on how they strike it down - assuming they do. If they simply give religious opposition an opt-out then, obviously, the mandate would hold for everyone else. Or they could simply strike down the contraceptive mandate as a line-item. But again, I'm not sure. I was asking hoping to learn something.

I haven't been following it that closely either, but IMO granting religious opposition an opt-out would be the worst possible outcome. It should either be struck down for everyone, or upheld for everyone.

the only opt out they are asking for is providing abortion causing drugs.

Is obamacare only about free abortions? I certainly hope not.

That's not the issue. An opt-out would be bad because if violates the basic principle of equal rights. We should all have to follow the same laws.

 

[manifold]

Perhaps. Depends on the specifics of their ruling. However, that in NO WAY opens the door for single payer...not without a Constitutional amendment.

Good luck with that.

When the SC ruled the individual mandate was Constitutional by calling it a tax (despite the government's insistence it wasn't), they effectively drew a line in the sand saying to the government "You can't go there" under the commerce or general welfare clause. You can tax, but you can't run the market for healthcare. Of course, the people could overrule that finding with an amendment to the constitution, which ain't gonna happen.

I don't follow your logic at all.

There would be nothing unconstitutional about raising taxes to expand medicare for everyone.

ask the brits and canadians how they like that.

I didn't say it was a good idea, merely that it wouldn't be unconstitutional.

 

[manifold]

Setting aside the shear stupidity of that idea, no, it wouldn't be unconstitutional to raise taxes (though that ain't gonna happen either) but it sure as shit would be unconstitutional to attempt to grant medicare to everyone. The SC's ruling made that crystal clear.

Bullshit

The constitutionality of medicare (or anything) is not tied to it's magnitude. That's patently retarded, no offense.

You ought to read the Obamacare ruling...lest you look retarded.

However, you are free to try to raise taxes and expand that ever-so-efficient medicare system to everyone. Good luck!

Feel free to quote the text that led you to your erroneous conclusions.

 

[manifold]

I haven't been following it that closely either, but IMO granting religious opposition an opt-out would be the worst possible outcome. It should either be struck down for everyone, or upheld for everyone.

the only opt out they are asking for is providing abortion causing drugs.

Is obamacare only about free abortions? I certainly hope not.

That's not the issue. An opt-out would be bad because if violates the basic principle of equal rights. We should all have to follow the same laws.

^this

Bingo

spot on

give that man a prize

 

[KNB]

You are all aware that a pill that terminates a fertilized egg is not the same as a surgical abortion, right?

If Christians want to cut down on abortions, contraception and birth-control pills should be made available to everyone.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Nice graphic but it means nothing. I just left Costco a free man.

So, you were shoplifting?

 

[Uncensored2008]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if they win doesn't that effectively strike down the entire employer mandate portion of the law?

No, it just upholds the 1st Amendment, which is a far more devastating blow to Obama and the democrats.

 

[peach174]

No one can force beliefs on employees because no one is obligated to become the employee of someone else.

Heres the rub tho. What if more employers start imposing more "beliefs"? And a few turn to hundreds? The rule still applies that no one HAS to work there but many will have to work somewhere which means some will be exposed to it.

Does the worker lose their right to the CEO's belief?

Hobby Lobby is not imposing their beliefs onto anyone.
No one who works at Hobby Lobby has lost their rights. It's the owner of the Hobby Lobby who has lost their right. It is sold at Walgreens for 49.99. They can get it for free at any Planned Parenthood clinic.
The people that work at Hobby Lobby can pay for it themselves, just like they are doing now. They could also get an additional private insurance that does pay for the morning after pill or the week after pill.
It is the Feds who passed this Plan B law that has violated the 1st Amendment.

 

[eflatminor]

Bullshit

The constitutionality of medicare (or anything) is not tied to it's magnitude. That's patently retarded, no offense.

You ought to read the Obamacare ruling...lest you look retarded.

However, you are free to try to raise taxes and expand that ever-so-efficient medicare system to everyone. Good luck!

Feel free to quote the text that led you to your erroneous conclusions.

It is found in the fact that the individual mandate was found to be constitutional only as a tax...not a mandate per se. So, while government could attempt to expand medicare, they could not eliminate the health insurance market through a single payer system by forcing people into that system. Yes, government can tax. Yes, government could try to expand medicare (as dumb ass an idea as that is), but no, government cannot institute a single payer system, which means eliminating the healthcare insurance market, which is what you originally said this ruling would "open the door to". Again, you need a constitution amendment for single payer and that's not going to happen.

 

[peach174]

You are all aware that a pill that terminates a fertilized egg is not the same as a surgical abortion, right?

If Christians want to cut down on abortions, contraception and birth-control pills should be made available to everyone.

Many believe that life begins at conception and a fertilized egg is life.

It is not about birth control pills.
It's about Plan B - the morning after pill and the week after pill.

 

[manifold]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if they win doesn't that effectively strike down the entire employer mandate portion of the law?

No, it just upholds the 1st Amendment, which is a far more devastating blow to Obama and the democrats.

^derp alert!

If they rule that enforcing the law violates the 1st Amendment, then the law gets struck down.

yoar welcome

 

[manifold]

You ought to read the Obamacare ruling...lest you look retarded.

However, you are free to try to raise taxes and expand that ever-so-efficient medicare system to everyone. Good luck!

Feel free to quote the text that led you to your erroneous conclusions.

It is found in the fact that the individual mandate was found to be constitutional only as a tax...not a mandate per se. So, while government could attempt to expand medicare, they could not eliminate the health insurance market through a single payer system by forcing people into that system. Yes, government can tax. Yes, government could try to expand medicare (as dumb ass an idea as that is), but no, government cannot institute a single payer system, which means eliminating the healthcare insurance market, which is what you originally said this ruling would "open the door to". Again, you need a constitution amendment for single payer and that's not going to happen.

Ahhh, now I see the disconnect.

I'm not talking about forcing anybody onto medicare, merely making it available as an option.

 

[dblack]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if they win doesn't that effectively strike down the entire employer mandate portion of the law?

No, it just upholds the 1st Amendment, which is a far more devastating blow to Obama and the democrats.

^derp alert!

If they rule that enforcing the law violates the 1st Amendment, then the law gets struck down.

yoar welcome

Which is how it ought to go. But Roberts has already shown his willingness to keep ACA alive. I suspect he'll find another 'workaround'.

 

[Uncensored2008]

^derp alert!

If they rule that enforcing the law violates the 1st Amendment, then the law gets struck down.

yoar welcome

I doubt the entire ACA will be struck down, but you DO know HL will win this, don't you?

 

[KNB]

You are all aware that a pill that terminates a fertilized egg is not the same as a surgical abortion, right?

If Christians want to cut down on abortions, contraception and birth-control pills should be made available to everyone.

Many believe that life begins at conception and a fertilized egg is life.

It is not about birth control pills.
It's about Plan B - the morning after pill and the week after pill.

And what's wrong with a pill? If Hobby Lobby is about profit, they should know that it costs a hell of a lot less to pay for Plan B than it does to pay for maternity leave, etc., for their employees.

Why does a business get to dictate the religious freedom of its employees?

 

[manifold]

^derp alert!

If they rule that enforcing the law violates the 1st Amendment, then the law gets struck down.

yoar welcome

I doubt the entire ACA will be struck down, but you DO know HL will win this, don't you?

The ACA is a tenuous house of cards and employer mandates are part of the bottom row, as it were. While a HL win might not strike it down completely, it certainly sets the crumbling in motion.

 

[ClosedCaption]

No one can force beliefs on employees because no one is obligated to become the employee of someone else.

Heres the rub tho. What if more employers start imposing more "beliefs"? And a few turn to hundreds? The rule still applies that no one HAS to work there but many will have to work somewhere which means some will be exposed to it.

Does the worker lose their right to the CEO's belief?

Hobby Lobby is not imposing their beliefs onto anyone.
No one who works at Hobby Lobby has lost their rights. It's the owner of the Hobby Lobby who has lost their right. It is sold at Walgreens for 49.99. They can get it for free at any Planned Parenthood clinic.
The people that work at Hobby Lobby can pay for it themselves, just like they are doing now. They could also get an additional private insurance that does pay for the morning after pill or the week after pill.
It is the Feds who passed this Plan B law that has violated the 1st Amendment.

Yeah they are, they believe that Plan B is an Abortificant drug and its not. So now we have to deal with not only people religion but what they believe things to be and not what they actually are.

 

[Avatar4321]

You are all aware that a pill that terminates a fertilized egg is not the same as a surgical abortion, right?

If Christians want to cut down on abortions, contraception and birth-control pills should be made available to everyone.

Many believe that life begins at conception and a fertilized egg is life.

It is not about birth control pills.
It's about Plan B - the morning after pill and the week after pill.

And what's wrong with a pill? If Hobby Lobby is about profit, they should know that it costs a hell of a lot less to pay for Plan B than it does to pay for maternity leave, etc., for their employees.

Why does a business get to dictate the religious freedom of its employees?

No business is dictating the religious freedom of employees. No employees religious freedom is at all implicated by this case.

 

[Avatar4321]

Heres the rub tho. What if more employers start imposing more "beliefs"? And a few turn to hundreds? The rule still applies that no one HAS to work there but many will have to work somewhere which means some will be exposed to it.

Does the worker lose their right to the CEO's belief?

Hobby Lobby is not imposing their beliefs onto anyone.
No one who works at Hobby Lobby has lost their rights. It's the owner of the Hobby Lobby who has lost their right. It is sold at Walgreens for 49.99. They can get it for free at any Planned Parenthood clinic.
The people that work at Hobby Lobby can pay for it themselves, just like they are doing now. They could also get an additional private insurance that does pay for the morning after pill or the week after pill.
It is the Feds who passed this Plan B law that has violated the 1st Amendment.

Yeah they are, they believe that Plan B is an Abortificant drug and its not. So now we have to deal with not only people religion but what they believe things to be and not what they actually are.

Yeah you have to deal with what people believe. That's specifically why the First amendment exists so that the government cant interfere with a person's beliefs. Freedom of conscience. We are free to speak out. We are free to exercise our religious without government interference. we are free to petition our government for redress from injustice.

This law is unjust.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Then whats stopping them from requiring everyone to say the lords prayer before work? Or have a certain diet?

Could any other owner force his beliefs on his employees in other ways? Could the owner who doesnt believe in prescription meds opt out of it all together and argue for "natural healing" methods? Could a vegan make their stores meat free? Even their employees lunches?

Where does it stop? Or a better question, WHAT makes it stop?

It will never stop. The goal is to remake our nation, "conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal, into a theocratic plutocracy where only the 'First Estate" (The Clergy) and "Second Estate" (The 1% & Military Leadership) enjoy the blessings of liberty.

The rest of the nation will pay all the taxes and toil without social security, health care or dignity. Their children will never afford higher education and with the repeal of child labor laws will begin to toil at earlier and earlier ages. The perfect dystopia in the minds and hearts of the callous conservatives.

How might we make it stop?

It maybe too late. The United States Supreme Court no longer believes in the values which lead us to the nation described by President Lincoln. In fact many fellow travelers of the New Right (Reich?) have already begun the effort to rewrite history. See any thread posted by PoliticalChic and those who thank her as a leader within the Ministry of Truth.