If Jesus couldn't keep HIMSELF out of trouble...

[Sky Dancer]

I don't think it's solely a question of comprehension. It's completely different to read the book and use it as a guide for your life.

That's nice; but if you are going to argue the doctrinal intricacies of the Bible, actually having read it is a prerequisite.

Wonky is arguing from a position of abject ignorance.

I wouldn't dream of arguing the doctrinal intricacies of the Bible. I'm aware of some passages that are used to justify certain political positions or crimes.

For example, there is a 28 year old man in Pennsylvania using the "Leviticus defense" for murdering a 70 year old man by stoning him. Apparently, the 70 year old made an unwanted pass, so this fellow studied his bible and then wrapped some rocks in a sock and beat the old man to death.

Honestly, why didn't he just say, "no thank you" to the pass.

http://open.salon.com/blog/avimecca/2011/03/19/gay_man_stoned_to_death_--_in_america

 

[Divine Wind]

For example, there is a 28 year old man in Pennsylvania using the "Leviticus defense" for murdering a 70 year old man by stoning him. Apparently, the 70 year old made an unwanted pass, so this fellow studied his bible and then wrapped some rocks in a sock and beat the old man to death.

Honestly, why didn't he just say, "no thank you" to the pass.

Because violent people with latent homosexual tendencies and low self esteem don't think rationally. He's attempting to use the Bible as an excuse in order to justify a murder. I hope he is sentenced accordingly.

 

[Sky Dancer]

For example, there is a 28 year old man in Pennsylvania using the "Leviticus defense" for murdering a 70 year old man by stoning him. Apparently, the 70 year old made an unwanted pass, so this fellow studied his bible and then wrapped some rocks in a sock and beat the old man to death.

Honestly, why didn't he just say, "no thank you" to the pass.

Because violent people with latent homosexual tendencies and low self esteem don't think rationally. He's attempting to use the Bible as an excuse in order to justify a murder. I hope he is sentenced accordingly.

Let's see if I get this right. Instead of blaming Leviticus, you blame the murderer for having "homosexual tendencies"? It sounds like you're blaming the violence on homosexuality, in a sense, blaming the murder victim.

The issue is this man couldn't just say no to a pass. He is a biblical literalist. He took the law into his own hands, and he cites biblical law over civil law.

Lev. 20: 13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death."

 

[Divine Wind]

Part of thinks we were aliens... one never knows.
ONe reason why I am agnostic and not atheist, is the fact that humans evolved fast than any other animal.
My other problem is why cant you be christian and believe in evolution? Why couldn't God be smart enough to realize that we need to evolve with our environment?

You can. I am and think most are. God created the Universe. This obviously includes all "natural laws" which scientists discern through research. God gave us a brain, regardless of how long that gift took to come to fruition, and I think the expectation was that we'd use this gift.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Hey.......the've found actual amino acids in various meteors that have come from space.

Isn't that where the Lord lives?????

Just floating around in space? Hardly.

Has anyone seen Voyage - the 1/10 billionth scale model of the Solar System? There are a few around the country. I saw the one in Corpus Christi, Tx. It's very cool, but the most shocking thing I noticed was that space was immense and that our Solar System was almost pure space with a couple of tiny pebbles floating around in it.

To think that an entity such as God is not only larger than our Solar System, but larger than the Universe is completely incomprehensible. Those fire-and-brimstone preachers who say they know what God wants are talking through their hats. It's barely possible for a human being to even comprehend God much less "know" God or know what God wants.

We have inklings of what God wants. Glimpses. Glimmerings. A few key ideas maybe. Know? No friggin' way.

Those like myself that believe that the Bible is God's word, then yes they and I do believe that we know what God wants. It's no secret.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Isn't that where the Lord lives?????

Just floating around in space? Hardly.

Has anyone seen Voyage - the 1/10 billionth scale model of the Solar System? There are a few around the country. I saw the one in Corpus Christi, Tx. It's very cool, but the most shocking thing I noticed was that space was immense and that our Solar System was almost pure space with a couple of tiny pebbles floating around in it.

To think that an entity such as God is not only larger than our Solar System, but larger than the Universe is completely incomprehensible. Those fire-and-brimstone preachers who say they know what God wants are talking through their hats. It's barely possible for a human being to even comprehend God much less "know" God or know what God wants.

We have inklings of what God wants. Glimpses. Glimmerings. A few key ideas maybe. Know? No friggin' way.

Those like myself that believe that the Bible is God's word, then yes they and I do believe that we know what God wants. It's no secret.

Are you a bible literalist?

 

[Divine Wind]

Let's see if I get this right. Instead of blaming Leviticus, you blame the murderer for having "homosexual tendencies"? It sounds like you're blaming the violence on homosexuality, in a sense, blaming the murder victim.

No. I'm saying a person who has such a reaction to a "pass", whether that is what it was or not, is probably uncertain about their own sexuality, but there could be other reasons too.

https://my.psychologytoday.com/files/u47/Henry_et_al.pdf

The results of this study indicate that individuals who score
in the homophobic range and admit negative affect toward homosexuality
demonstrate significant sexual arousal to male homosexual
erotic stimuli.

Interviews - Karen Franklin | Assault On Gay America | FRONTLINE | PBS

FWIW, if Jesus were with us in body today, would he be among the suits in D.C. and Wall Street or would he be among the oppressed, the poor and those who are being beaten for sport?

 

[Sky Dancer]

Let's see if I get this right. Instead of blaming Leviticus, you blame the murderer for having "homosexual tendencies"? It sounds like you're blaming the violence on homosexuality, in a sense, blaming the murder victim.

No. I'm saying a person who has such a reaction to a "pass", whether that is what it was or not, is probably uncertain about their own sexuality, but there could be other reasons too.

https://my.psychologytoday.com/files/u47/Henry_et_al.pdf

The results of this study indicate that individuals who score
in the homophobic range and admit negative affect toward homosexuality
demonstrate significant sexual arousal to male homosexual
erotic stimuli.

Interviews - Karen Franklin | Assault On Gay America | FRONTLINE | PBS

FWIW, if Jesus were with us in body today, would he be among the suits in D.C. and Wall Street or would he be among the oppressed, the poor and those who are being beaten for sport?

So you are blaming the anti-gay violence on "latent homosexuality" rather than religion. Possibility is, if this fellow hadn't been a religious extremist he may have come out as gay. It's just as possible that anti-gay religious oppression contributed to the violence.

 

[Cecilie1200]

It's great literature, but a lot of harm has come from making it into more than that.

And Communism, which is state-sponsored atheism, has killed a hundred million people.

Did you have a point?

I've had many, all of which you missed.

(And atheism isn't even necessary in a communist nation to begin with. There's no corrleation.)

Beeep!!! Sorry, wrong answer.

Modern twentieth-century Communism is based on the theories of Karl Marx. Marx considered atheism as a key part of communism, and is famous for saying, "Religion ... is the opium of the masses." Marx was himself an atheist, of course, and he also wrote, "Communism begins from the outset with atheism; but atheism is at first far from being communism; indeed, that atheism is still mostly an abstraction."

Vladimir Lenin wrote: "A Marxist must be a materialist, i. e., an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist, i. e., one who treats the struggle against religion not in an abstract way, not on the basis of remote, purely theoretical, never varying preaching, but in a concrete way, on the basis of the class struggle which is going on in practice and is educating the masses more and better than anything else could."

In 1955, Chinese communist leader Chou En-lai declared, "We Communists are atheists".

If you can't believe the Communists themselves, who CAN you believe? Well, how about someone who lived and suffered under Communism?

"Over a half century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of old people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened. Since then I have spent well-nigh 50 years working on the history of our revolution; in the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval. But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous revolution that swallowed up some 60 million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened." - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

It's not an accident that every society that has ever started out to be Communist either abandoned it early, or ended up persecuting religion.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Just floating around in space? Hardly.

Has anyone seen Voyage - the 1/10 billionth scale model of the Solar System? There are a few around the country. I saw the one in Corpus Christi, Tx. It's very cool, but the most shocking thing I noticed was that space was immense and that our Solar System was almost pure space with a couple of tiny pebbles floating around in it.

To think that an entity such as God is not only larger than our Solar System, but larger than the Universe is completely incomprehensible. Those fire-and-brimstone preachers who say they know what God wants are talking through their hats. It's barely possible for a human being to even comprehend God much less "know" God or know what God wants.

We have inklings of what God wants. Glimpses. Glimmerings. A few key ideas maybe. Know? No friggin' way.

Those like myself that believe that the Bible is God's word, then yes they and I do believe that we know what God wants. It's no secret.

Are you a bible literalist?

The Bible isn't meant to be taken literally. IMO

 

[Sky Dancer]

Those like myself that believe that the Bible is God's word, then yes they and I do believe that we know what God wants. It's no secret.

Are you a bible literalist?

The Bible isn't meant to be taken literally. IMO

Thanks, I agree. There are parables, metaphor, allegory. It's meant to be contemplated and meditated on.

 

[Divine Wind]

Those like myself that believe that the Bible is God's word, then yes they and I do believe that we know what God wants. It's no secret.

Do you read it in the original Hebrew? Do you read the books not included by the Councils of Nicaea? Which version of the Bible do you deem the Holy Word of God since not all of them agree in translations? Do you eat shellfish? Pork? Do you strictly adhere to all the dietary and other rules detailed in the Bible?

God has the power the write in the heavens, so why was it chosen to use the flawed instrument of mankind to write the Bible? It's a mystery, but I think it's because God wants us to figure out many of those lessons for ourselves. Just as a parent can't constantly tell their child what to do if they want them to mature and learn on their own, I think God gave us our brains to think for ourselves.

 

[Cecilie1200]

She's exeptional good at ridicule.

She is exceptionally bright. When you say stupid things, she ridicules you in a clever and humorous way.

It's easy to appreciate her when she's directing the ridicule at someone you disagree with.

I appreciate her because she has brains - lots of them.

Aw, shucks. You're gonna make me blush.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I just love witty and funny people. Cecil is tops.

She's exeptional good at ridicule. It's easy to appreciate her when she's directing the ridicule at someone you disagree with.

She used to be clever, but subsequently got lazy. Now she's trying to pawn off drivel that even WillowTree could manage to put together.

Interesting accusation from a dickless wonder who has run away from every bit of "drivel" I've "put together" without even trying to rebut it.

Could you BE any more obvious about your intellectual cowardice? Maybe a nice, flashing neon sign over your head that says, "Pussy"? Yellow neon, I think.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Everyone is prone to error, and of course I'm not going to take just one historian's word at face value.

Most people look at corroborating evidence when they want to determine whether something is (at least probably) true. And yes, there's all sorts of non-written evidence about ancient cultures, the medieval period, and even evidence that supports Darwin's theory (imagine that!)

And surprise, that doesn't mean that Darwin explained it all perfectly, only that it's the best explanation for the evidence that has been developed so far.

Whoa, big boy, you'll hurt yourself trying to back paddle so fast!

How funny, there is more evidence and documents supporting the Biblical events than the 90 percent of the history, and there is no documentation of evolution occurring (fossils can be anything, and they do not have the time thing covered that well), yet you want to support "those" stories, and deny the Bible. You are now officially speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

Everything I said is self consistent. You can't make that claim.

Really? You have yet to explain to us how your opening premise that Jesus' lack of personal physical safety precludes Him from being able to save anyone else is "self-consistent" with the fact that people who are in the business of rescuing and protecting others routinely do so by putting themselves into harm's way.

If you've finally grown a pair, please do point out the "self-consistency" of what you said.
God knows (excuse the expression) I've been waiting for pages now for you to do so.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I've had many, all of which you missed.

No, I got them, all right. You've done nothing but prove you don't understand a single thing about Christianity, but feel qualified to speak authoritatively on it.

Leftists and atheists do that a lot.

(And atheism isn't even necessary in a communist nation to begin with. There's no corrleation.)

Really? Name me a religious Communist society.

An Israeli kibbutz.

Interesting how he asked for a society, and you gave him a community which is much more comparable to a family than a society.

Methinks there are all manner of words and concepts you just don't grasp, aside from Christianity and the Bible.

 

[Divine Wind]

So you are blaming the anti-gay violence on "latent homosexuality" rather than religion. Possibility is, if this fellow hadn't been a religious extremist he may have come out as gay. It's just as possible that anti-gay religious oppression contributed to the violence.

Blaming violence on religion is like blaming the Virginia Tech massacre on guns. The only way the Bible can kill anyone is if someone picked up one and beat someone over the head with it. A gun is just a paper weight until someone picks it up and uses it. This young man who beat the older man to death had some deep problems which only worsened when he committed murder. To blame those problems on "religion" is, IMHO, almost as bad as the young man who attempted to do the same.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Wonkers wants to tell other people that they believe wrong without the comprehension of what they believe. It appears petty and small. If he had comprehension, then eventually, we would get into the mysteries that are beyond the understanding of men. Those are fun to try to discuss, because we really have nothing in the physical universe to compare. Wonkers has said he read the Bible, but goes right back to his talking points without considering the depths of the Bible. It is sad. Maybe he is just predjudiced against Christians.

The OP clearly stated that this was a theological question. Theology is the systematic and rational study of religion. (source) That includes the inconsistencies among a religion's writings.

Merely claiming that I don't comprehend, or haven't "considered the depths" of the Bible, or am simply prejudiced is neither a systematic nor a rational conclusion. It just makes you another whiny flamer, just slightly less crass.

Wrong. The OP made it clear that this was a theological DECLARATION. However you chose to phrase it, there was no real question involved, for the simple reason that you weren't looking for answers. You were presenting the question AS the answer.

Furthermore, NO ONE has "merely claimed that you don't comprehend". Every single one of us who has said so has ALSO clearly explained to you what it was that you didn't comprehend, which was frankly more courtesy than such a snotty OP and subsequent attitude deserved from us. The fact that you have assiduously chosen to hear nothing BUT the statement that you don't comprehend is a problem with YOU, not us.

Merely stating that our religious beliefs are serious flawed without being willing to then listen and reply to the responses makes you not only just another whining flamer, but also fully and totally crass.

 

[Sky Dancer]

So you are blaming the anti-gay violence on "latent homosexuality" rather than religion. Possibility is, if this fellow hadn't been a religious extremist he may have come out as gay. It's just as possible that anti-gay religious oppression contributed to the violence.

Blaming violence on religion is like blaming the Virginia Tech massacre on guns. The only way the Bible can kill anyone is if someone picked up one and beat someone over the head with it. A gun is just a paper weight until someone picks it up and uses it. This young man who beat the older man to death had some deep problems which only worsened when he committed murder. To blame those problems on "religion" is, IMHO, almost as bad as the young man who attempted to do the same.

Let me ask you this. Do you blame Islam for terrorism?

Truth is, religion oppresses gay people. This man's religious convictions, inability to simply say no to a pass, led to his violence. Religious hangups led to this murder.

The murderer was the sole beneficiary of the old mans will btw. The murderer was a daily visitor to the 70 year old victim.

There is a problem with literalism and scripture. The perpetrator prayed before killing the victim. The guy used the bible to justify his violence and nobody bats an eye.

Tragic story. The murderer was mentally ill, LDS, and the victim was brain damaged. According to his brother, the 70 year old victim was not mentally developed enough to be interested in sex. The 70 year old gave the murderer power of attorney over his finances.

http://www.truecrimereport.com/2011/03/john_joe_thomas_stones_70-year.php

 

[Cecilie1200]

Wonkers wants to tell other people that they believe wrong without the comprehension of what they believe. It appears petty and small. If he had comprehension, then eventually, we would get into the mysteries that are beyond the understanding of men. Those are fun to try to discuss, because we really have nothing in the physical universe to compare. Wonkers has said he read the Bible, but goes right back to his talking points without considering the depths of the Bible. It is sad. Maybe he is just predjudiced against Christians.

The OP clearly stated that this was a theological question. Theology is the systematic and rational study of religion. (source) That includes the inconsistencies among a religion's writings.

Merely claiming that I don't comprehend, or haven't "considered the depths" of the Bible, or am simply prejudiced is neither a systematic nor a rational conclusion. It just makes you another whiny flamer, just slightly less crass.

Yet, you have used neither "systemic" or "rational" thought to present your ideas/questions. It is just a cover for you to "bash" Christians.

Thirty-nine frigging pages of defending this epic-level doofus, and she FINALLY figures it out.