If We Erase The Christian Basis Of Governance, Then What Do We Unleash?

[NYcarbineer]

I'm just curious when Right Wingers are going to listen to Jesus' admonition to help the poor, give up wealth and treat people the way you want to be treated.

Conservatives give to charity at a rate that is embarrassing to their liberal counterparts.

..while at the same time they preach that giving handouts to the poor makes them lazy and dependent.

 

[Antares]

The notion alone of a 'Christian basis of government' is an example of Christian arrogance and hostility toward Americans who practice a different religion and those free from faith.

You forgot to add the "in my opinion".

Your opinion isn't worth much Counselor.

 

[thereisnospoon]

The notion alone of a 'Christian basis of government' is an example of Christian arrogance and hostility toward Americans who practice a different religion and those free from faith.

No it isn't. You made that up.
IN fact it was Christians that wrote the First Amendment. It was Christians who left England because they wanted the freedom to practice their faith.

 

[NYcarbineer]

So if the subjugation of women is a theme found throughout the Bible, why does our government, our Constitution, our collective belief,

stand for equal rights for women?

 

[thereisnospoon]

I'm just curious when Right Wingers are going to listen to Jesus' admonition to help the poor, give up wealth and treat people the way you want to be treated.

Conservatives give to charity at a rate that is embarrassing to their liberal counterparts.

..while at the same time they preach that giving handouts to the poor makes them lazy and dependent.

Umm Christians are not the only people who are pointing out those facts.
Conservatives are not all Christians. All Christians are not conservative.

 

[thereisnospoon]

The notion alone of a 'Christian basis of government' is an example of Christian arrogance and hostility toward Americans who practice a different religion and those free from faith.

Thankfully their time is up in America

What the fuck are you talking about?
Dude, stay off the drugs.

 

[thereisnospoon]

The notion alone of a 'Christian basis of government' is an example of Christian arrogance and hostility toward Americans who practice a different religion and those free from faith.

Thankfully their time is up in America

Your hatred for Christians and Christianity plus your hatred for all people who dare not kowtow to the liberal ideology is well noted.
You may stop posting here now. Nobody cares.
You are a hater.
Now go chase cars on the nearest interstate.

 

[Rikurzhen]

So if the subjugation of women is a theme found throughout the Bible, why does our government, our Constitution, our collective belief,

stand for equal rights for women?

Because the phrase "all men are created equal" refers to humans and so women are included.

Clearly women are not the equal of men. Men are stronger and faster than women. If we dispense with the silly notion of God-given equality, and align our governing philosophy with what nature shows us, then we should embark on wholesale reforms of society.

 

[bendog]

It's not a "Christian" basis of govt, since a good number of founders were deists, not Christians. Rather, it's the notion of a secular state in which laws, which are subject to the BOR's protections for individuals, are premised upon moral norms and reasoning of western Europe, and notably classical liberals.

And I really don't see any evidence we are "abandoning," or considering abandoning, this. We are in a period where the very right sees any compromise as surrender. I won't say there is some justification in their being poed at guys like GWB spending like drunken sailors and going willy nilly off to war. And Obama didn't exactly compromise on universal HC coverage either.

 

[bendog]

So if the subjugation of women is a theme found throughout the Bible, why does our government, our Constitution, our collective belief,

stand for equal rights for women?

Because the phrase "all men are created equal" refers to humans and so women are included.

Clearly women are not the equal of men. Men are stronger and faster than women. If we dispense with the silly notion of God-given equality, and align our governing philosophy with what nature shows us, then we should embark on wholesale reforms of society.

WTF are you smoking? At the time of the decalartion women had no rights. And originally we not only excluded citizenship to SLAVES, but women and non landowning white males didn't vote

 

[Rikurzhen]

It's not a "Christian" basis of govt, since a good number of founders were deists, not Christians. Rather, it's the notion of a secular state in which laws, which are subject to the BOR's protections for individuals, are premised upon moral norms and reasoning of western Europe, and notably classical liberals.

Don't be a jackass. Colonial America was infused Christianity, governance structures were not conceived to be secular.

The moral norms and reasoning of Europe have a Christian world view as their basis. Ancient Sparta didn't have that world view. Headhunter culture in Papua New Guinea don't have that world view.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I'm sorry Riku but your OP wasn't very clear. Here's what I got out of it...you are proposing that a secular government will lead to...something because you don't think humans are equal and it is only Christianity that makes us "believe" humans are equal? Is that the gist?

First, go retrieve a cold compress.
The OP's question is based on a what if. That is, what if we abandoned all of our Judeo-Christian principles, then what?
Let's rewrite the laws based on nothing....Then what?

 

[Rikurzhen]

So if the subjugation of women is a theme found throughout the Bible, why does our government, our Constitution, our collective belief,

stand for equal rights for women?

Because the phrase "all men are created equal" refers to humans and so women are included.

Clearly women are not the equal of men. Men are stronger and faster than women. If we dispense with the silly notion of God-given equality, and align our governing philosophy with what nature shows us, then we should embark on wholesale reforms of society.

WTF are you smoking? At the time of the decalartion women had no rights. And originally we not only excluded citizenship to SLAVES, but women and non landowning white males didn't vote

They didn't live up to modern standards, no doubt, but they didn't view women as animals, a wife went to heaven just like her husband and was judged before God as an equal, no better or worse than her husband.

 

[eflatminor]

Once the foundational beliefs which created the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are shown to be false, ...

The notion that citizens should be free to conduct their own affairs without government meddling unless they infringe on the rights of another is not a false foundation...and hasn't a damn thing to do with Christianity.

How shall we proceed to reform society? Easy. It starts and ends with freedom. Try it sometime!

 

[Rikurzhen]

I'm sorry Riku but your OP wasn't very clear. Here's what I got out of it...you are proposing that a secular government will lead to...something because you don't think humans are equal and it is only Christianity that makes us "believe" humans are equal? Is that the gist?

First, go retrieve a cold compress.
The OP's question is based on a what if. That is, what if we abandoned all of our Judeo-Christian principles, then what?
Let's rewrite the laws based on nothing....Then what?

Liberals, you can't live with them, you can't live with them. Learning to read is so hard for them to master.

 

[Rikurzhen]

Once the foundational beliefs which created the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are shown to be false, ...

The notion that citizens should be free to conduct their own affairs without government meddling unless they infringe on the rights of another is not a false foundation...and hasn't a damn thing to do with Christianity.

How shall we proceed to reform society? Easy. It starts and ends with freedom. Try it sometime!

Why? Why is that good? Where does that silly notion come from? All I see about me are unequal outcomes. Clearly some people are "better" than others and so doesn't it follow from what we observe that they should have more rights. The Übermensch should be treated differently than the Untermensch.

 

[AmericanFirst]

Demons of course........Jezzzzzzzz.

Then they went:

One common misuse of the Declaration of Independence is to argue that it states that our rights come from God and, therefore, there are no legitimate interpretations of the rights in the Constitution that would be contrary to God. The first problem is that the Declaration of Independence refers to a “Creator” and not the Christian “God” meant by people making the argument. The second problem is that the “rights” mentioned in the Declaration of Independence are “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” — none of which are “rights” discussed in the Constitution.

Finally, the Declaration of Independence also makes it clear that governments created by humanity derive their powers from the consent of the governed, not from any gods. This is why the Constitution does not make any mention of any gods.


Declaration of Independence Christianity Myth

Creator is a common term used for the one true God, the one you libtards hate. Good luck with that.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Demons of course........Jezzzzzzzz.

Then they went:

One common misuse of the Declaration of Independence is to argue that it states that our rights come from God and, therefore, there are no legitimate interpretations of the rights in the Constitution that would be contrary to God. The first problem is that the Declaration of Independence refers to a “Creator” and not the Christian “God” meant by people making the argument. The second problem is that the “rights” mentioned in the Declaration of Independence are “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” — none of which are “rights” discussed in the Constitution.

Finally, the Declaration of Independence also makes it clear that governments created by humanity derive their powers from the consent of the governed, not from any gods. This is why the Constitution does not make any mention of any gods.


Declaration of Independence Christianity Myth

THAT is YOUR opinion. An opinion not widely held. An opinion based on fear.

 

[AmericanFirst]

I'm hoping that this is a fun topic. A century ago G.K. Chesterton observed:

“The Declaration of Independence dogmatically bases all rights on the fact that God created all men equal; and it is right; for if they were not created equal, they were certainly evolved unequal. There is no basis for democracy except in a dogma about the divine origin of man.” ​

Christians have this quaint belief that God created Adam and Eve and that all of mankind is equal in the eyes of God. A King and a Pauper shall be judged equally by God once in Heaven. This God inspired notion has informed our governing philosophy ever since we began as a nation.

The evidence of reality however is abundantly clear that we are not all made equal, so what higher principle can we turn to to guide us and prevent us from a utilitarian reform of our laws and customs which recognizes and enshrines what the real world is SCREAMING at us - we are not all equal?

We have past experiments where legislatures have tried to impose the will of man over reality, such as when the Indiana Legislature came close to passing a bill legislating a method to derive pi to a value of 3.2. Any engineer will tell you that if forced to use an imagined value for pi while building a bridge or an airplane, the product will be unstable. Man's will can't override reality. Disaster follows.

So we have a society where the great majority of people believe in God and the belief that God created us all equally. Once that belief is crushed into dust, why on Earth would we close our eyes to what nature is telling us about human inequality? Some will try to argue that appealing to the nature as a model for how society should be constructed is fallacious thinking but what then in its stead? We see the negative ramifications today of a world where we treat all people as equal when they in fact are not, but when God's command is being honored, who are mere men to know better and so we suffer through.

Once the foundational beliefs which created the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are shown to be false, how shall we proceed to reform society? The problem with merely appealing to the Religion of Liberalism is that it's unmoored from independently derived higher principles - it is actually formed by appealing to Christian foundational beliefs. How do we justify the notion of one man, one vote when some men are better and wiser than other men? The rational course is to acknowledge this reality and construct a society reflective of what nature has created. We no longer have to fear God's displeasure because we no longer cling to silly superstitions like "we are all created equal."

Why do so many Conservatives often use the Bible to argue AGAINST giving gay Americans equal rights?

Because the Bible condemns gay, both old and new testament.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I'm hoping that this is a fun topic. A century ago G.K. Chesterton observed:

“The Declaration of Independence dogmatically bases all rights on the fact that God created all men equal; and it is right; for if they were not created equal, they were certainly evolved unequal. There is no basis for democracy except in a dogma about the divine origin of man.” ​

Christians have this quaint belief that God created Adam and Eve and that all of mankind is equal in the eyes of God. A King and a Pauper shall be judged equally by God once in Heaven. This God inspired notion has informed our governing philosophy ever since we began as a nation.

The evidence of reality however is abundantly clear that we are not all made equal, so what higher principle can we turn to to guide us and prevent us from a utilitarian reform of our laws and customs which recognizes and enshrines what the real world is SCREAMING at us - we are not all equal?

We have past experiments where legislatures have tried to impose the will of man over reality, such as when the Indiana Legislature came close to passing a bill legislating a method to derive pi to a value of 3.2. Any engineer will tell you that if forced to use an imagined value for pi while building a bridge or an airplane, the product will be unstable. Man's will can't override reality. Disaster follows.

So we have a society where the great majority of people believe in God and the belief that God created us all equally. Once that belief is crushed into dust, why on Earth would we close our eyes to what nature is telling us about human inequality? Some will try to argue that appealing to the nature as a model for how society should be constructed is fallacious thinking but what then in its stead? We see the negative ramifications today of a world where we treat all people as equal when they in fact are not, but when God's command is being honored, who are mere men to know better and so we suffer through.

Once the foundational beliefs which created the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are shown to be false, how shall we proceed to reform society? The problem with merely appealing to the Religion of Liberalism is that it's unmoored from independently derived higher principles - it is actually formed by appealing to Christian foundational beliefs. How do we justify the notion of one man, one vote when some men are better and wiser than other men? The rational course is to acknowledge this reality and construct a society reflective of what nature has created. We no longer have to fear God's displeasure because we no longer cling to silly superstitions like "we are all created equal."

How many people do you actually know who believe that all Men are equal only because God told them so?

It is widely accepted that in the context of this writing, the term "men" refers not to gender, but to the entire human race.