Zone1 If we worship One God...

[ding]

Where did the particles come from? Matter is energy and energy cannot be created or destroyed. Where did the spark come from? Where did the particles come from with the energy to form our universe? As far as God, I've answered this. Are you unable to comprehend what you read? Man is as God once was. As God is now, man may become. God came from another universe and because he read His Book of Mormon, he lived a righteous life and did all his father in heaven asked him to do. He received his Celestial Kingdom and the opportunity to organize a universe with his wife (wives) as well. And, here He is, Father of our Universe. And, Catholics keep dodging where God came from.

When you get to be a god will you create another universe and some men who can later become gods? If so, how will you create your universe?

 

[ding]

As far as God, I've answered this. Are you unable to comprehend what you read?

I am unable to comprehend your explanation because your explanation makes no sense. I'm trying to understand where the first god came from. If the first god came from a man, where did the man come from? What is the first cause and was it uncaused? And if it wasn't uncaused then where did it come from?

The CHRISTIAN explanation is much less complex. There is only one God. God has always existed and will always exist. And he created our existence through the act of the big bang. And everything which has unfolded since that time has been willed into existence through the laws of nature.

 

[ding]

Do you not believe that Father and Jesus said that you can inherit all our Father has? Do you deny this? Father has a universe. So, you can have that opportunity if you stop denying him and Jesus Christ.

Is that a big selling point in converting to Mormonism? Become a Mormon, get your own universe?

 

[Cougarbear]

So if man becomes god, then way back long ago in another universe there were no gods until a man became god? Is that what you are saying?

Intelligence has always existed. Originally as pure energy. The greatest of all intelligences started it all. How many generations since then? Have no idea.

 

[Cougarbear]

No. That's not the Catholic view.

But what you are trying to say was that before the very first God was just a man in some far away universe who later became god and then created a bunch more men in a new universe who later became gods and created more universes and more men who did the same exact thing. Is that correct?

Nope. I explained this in another post.

 

[Cougarbear]

I am unable to comprehend your explanation because your explanation makes no sense. I'm trying to understand where the first god came from. If the first god came from a man, where did the man come from? What is the first cause and was it uncaused? And if it wasn't uncaused then where did it come from?

The CHRISTIAN explanation is much less complex. There is only one God. God has always existed and will always exist. And he created our existence through the act of the big bang. And everything which has unfolded since that time has been willed into existence through the laws of nature.

The most difficult thing is to understand we have always existed. There is no beginning nor will there be an end. Once again, intelligences (energy) as always existed. Energy cannot be created nor destroyed. The greatest of all intelligences figured out how to change energy into matter and it all began. He evolved and became physical and everything was on and hasn’t stopped and won’t.

 

[Cougarbear]

Is that a big selling point in converting to Mormonism? Become a Mormon, get your own universe?

What do you want? A cloud and a harp?

 

[ding]

Intelligence has always existed. Originally as pure energy. The greatest of all intelligences started it all. How many generations since then? Have no idea.

So there was a very first God?

 

[ding]

The most difficult thing is to understand we have always existed. There is no beginning nor will there be an end. Once again, intelligences (energy) as always existed. Energy cannot be created nor destroyed. The greatest of all intelligences figured out how to change energy into matter and it all began. He evolved and became physical and everything was on and hasn’t stopped and won’t.

I just presented the scientific evidence for energy being created from two sources. It's literally the basis of the Big Bang.

Your beliefs have a very Star Trekie edge to them. This universe definitely had a beginning and the atoms in your body were created from nothing ~14 billion years ago.

 

[ding]

What do you want? A cloud and a harp?

No, I want you to be honest. Your origin accounts are insane. Your beliefs that you will become a unique and separate god is insane. Your belief that you will have your own universe is insane. And when questions your whole house of cards comes tumbling down because even you yourself don't believe the silly stuff you are saying.

 

[ding]

Nope. I explained this in another post.

Not really. You waved your arms around a bit but that was it.

 

[Blues Man]

We can use our understanding of matter and energy and logic to describe it. Logically the only thing that can be eternal is something that is unchanging. From our understanding of matter and energy, matter and energy are not unchanging. So logically matter and energy cannot be an eternal source of creating universes. Which means that whatever the eternal unchanging source is it can't be energy or matter. Hence the only "thing" it could be would be something which is incorporeal which is in reality no "thing". Spirit is no thing. God is spirit.

You mean our paltry knowledge of 5% of the matter and energy in the universe?

That is no proof of a god ands it certainly is no proof the god of your religion was that god if he exists at all.

We will never know what happened BEFORE the universe came to be therefore we can never know what the cause was.

You're just too fucking arrogant to admit it. You're just guessing

 

[ding]

You mean our paltry knowledge of 5% of the matter and energy in the universe?

That is no proof of a god ands it certainly is no proof the god of your religion was that god if he exists at all.

We will never know what happened BEFORE the universe came to be therefore we can never know what the cause was.

You're just too fucking arrogant to admit it. You're just guessing

So much to unpack there. Think I'll just reply with this.

 

[Blues Man]

So much to unpack there. Think I'll just reply with this.
View attachment 870362

if you don't like the way I argue then stop replying to me.
You posting over large images and fonts is only going to to do the opposite of what you want
I am not going to follow your fucking directives on how to say what i say,

 

[ding]

if you don't like the way I argue then stop replying to me.

I am not going to follow your fucking directives on how to say what i say,

I'm just trying to figure out which one of my seven points you are refuting and why? You might try addressing each one individually. And provide what you believe is the correct statement.

1. Logically the only thing that can be eternal is something that is unchanging.
2. From our understanding of matter and energy, matter and energy are not unchanging.
3. Logically matter and energy cannot be an eternal source of creating universes.
4. Which means that whatever the eternal unchanging source is it can't be energy or matter.
5. Hence the only "thing" it could be, would be something which is incorporeal, which is in reality, no "thing".
6. Spirit is no thing.
7. God is spirit.

 

[Blues Man]

I'm just trying to figure out which one of my seven points you are refuting and why? You might try addressing each one individually. And provide what you believe is the correct statement.

1. Logically the only thing that can be eternal is something that is unchanging.
2. From our understanding of matter and energy, matter and energy are not unchanging.
3. Logically matter and energy cannot be an eternal source of creating universes.
4. Which means that whatever the eternal unchanging source is it can't be energy or matter.
5. Hence the only "thing" it could be would be something which is incorporeal which is in reality no "thing".
6. Spirit is no thing.
7. God is spirit.

Allegedly there is an eternal "spirit"

There is no proof of that there is supposition

From our understanding of the 5% of matter and energy we know exists in our observable universe we cannot make definitive claims as to what happened or how it happened when that 5% of our understanding breaks down as we extrapolate backwards

we know that matter and anti matter popped in and out of existence at some point near the beginning of the universe. We don't know how.

And we do not know with absolute certainty that there was "nothing" before the universe came to be because we cannot know what happened in the nano seconds just before and just after the universe came to be.

Claiming that you know exactly what happened and that a god you imbue with all kinds of personality traits did it is nothing but supposition

And all you are doing is calling something you cannot explain a god.

 

[ding]

Allegedly there is an eternal "spirit"

There is no proof of that there is supposition

From our understanding of the 5% of matter and energy we know exists in our observable universe we cannot make definitive claims as to what happened or how it happened when that 5% of our understanding breaks down as we extrapolate backwards

Logically we know that matter and any matter popped in and out of existence at some point near the beginning of the universe.

And we do not know with absolute certainty that there was "nothing" before the universe came to be because we cannot know what happened in the nano seconds just before and just after the universe came to be.

Claiming that you know exactly what happened and that a god you imbue with all kinds of personality traits did it is nothing but supposition

And all you are doing is calling something you cannot explain a god.

Still not seeing the connection to my statements. Try numbering your comments so I can understand what you think you are refuting. Cause I'm not seeing it.

1. Logically the only thing that can be eternal is something that is unchanging.
2. From our understanding of matter and energy, matter and energy are not unchanging.
3. Logically matter and energy cannot be an eternal source of creating universes.
4. Which means that whatever the eternal unchanging source is it can't be energy or matter.
5. Hence the only "thing" it could be, would be something which is incorporeal, which is in reality, no "thing".
6. Spirit is no thing.
7. God is spirit.

 

[ding]

if you don't like the way I argue then stop replying to me.
You posting over large images and fonts is only going to to do the opposite of what you want
I am not going to follow your fucking directives on how to say what i say,

I think you are forgetting the point of this specific conversation. The point of this conversation isn't does God exist. The point of this conversation is to prove that we can use our understanding of matter and energy and logic to describe the First Cause. That's what I am doing with this:

1. Logically the only thing that can be eternal is something that is unchanging.
2. From our understanding of matter and energy, matter and energy are not unchanging.
3. Logically matter and energy cannot be an eternal source of creating universes.
4. Which means that whatever the eternal unchanging source is it can't be energy or matter.
5. Hence the only "thing" it could be, would be something which is incorporeal, which is in reality, no "thing".
6. Spirit is no thing.
7. God is spirit.

What are you proving?

 

[Blues Man]

Still not seeing the connection to my statements. Try numbering your comments so I can understand what you think you are refuting. Cause I'm not seeing it.

1. Logically the only thing that can be eternal is something that is unchanging.
2. From our understanding of matter and energy, matter and energy are not unchanging.
3. Logically matter and energy cannot be an eternal source of creating universes.
4. Which means that whatever the eternal unchanging source is it can't be energy or matter.
5. Hence the only "thing" it could be, would be something which is incorporeal, which is in reality, no "thing".
6. Spirit is no thing.
7. God is spirit.

And you call it "spirit"

There is no proof that "spirit" is even exists

And what if our understanding of matter and exergy is incomplete? And we know it is incomplete since we know we do not understand 95% of the matter and energy in the observable universe and our knowledge breaks down the as we extrapolate closer to what we think is the beginning of the universe just as it breaks down when we try to explain black holes

we also know there may be an unobservable universe that we know nothing about. IOW we know we don't know anything about 95% of the universe we can observe and we know there might be parts of the universe we cannot observe that we know we know nothing about.

Since we have no understanding of any type of physics that can explain what the matter and energy of the universe was doing in the fractions of a second after the universe came to be we can not with any confidence say we know what happened and how it happened.

You use a god to explain it.

I am proving that we cannot know with absolute certainty how the fuck the universe got here.

 

[ding]

And you call it "spirit"

There is no proof that "spirit" is even exists

And what if our understanding of matter and exergy is incomplete? And we know it is incomplete since we know we do not understand 95% of the matter and energy in the observable universe and our knowledge breaks down the as we extrapolate closer to what we think is the beginning of the universe just as it breaks down when we try to explain black holes

we also know there may be an unobservable universe that we know nothing about. IOW we know we don't know anything about 95% of the universe we can observe and we know there might be parts of the universe we cannot observe that we know we know nothing about.

Since we have no understanding of any type of physics that can explain what the matter and energy of the universe was doing in the fractions of a second after the universe came to be we can not with any confidence say we know what happened and how it happened.

You use a god to explain it.

I am proving that we cannot know with absolute certainty how the fuck the universe got here.

I think you are forgetting the point of this specific conversation. The point of this conversation isn't does God exist. The point of this conversation is to prove that we can use our understanding of matter and energy and logic to describe the First Cause. That's what I am doing.