Zone1 If we worship One God...

[Blues Man]

I think you are forgetting the point of this specific conversation. The point of this conversation isn't does God exist. The point of this conversation is to prove that we can use our understanding of matter and energy and logic to describe the First Cause. That's what I am doing.

And you call it god. You insist on calling it god

Then you insist on giving that god a personality

And then there is the inconvenient fact that all our paltry knowledge absolutely breaks down where that first cause might be
You cannot simply state we have no fucking clue what that first cause was you have to make up something.

 

[ding]

And you call it god. You insist on calling it god

Then you insist on giving that god a personality

You cannot simply state we have no fucking clue what that first cause was you have to make up something.

Before you can go there, you must describe the conditions. You don't believe it can be done. I'm showing you it can be done.

So feel free to state YOU don't have the capability to prove that we can use our understanding of matter and energy and logic to describe the First Cause. Because I'm proving that I do.

 

[surada]

It's funny. The Catholic Church has 2 year missions for young people. I wonder where they got that idea from?
However, these missions are not proselytizing missions. Full Time Missionary Program
Pretty much service missions. We have these too. Not all missionaries do proselytizing either. However, with as many members the Catholic Church has, they can only muster up 30,000 conversions. Not a missionary church.

Doesn't the church have overseas missions?

 

[Blues Man]

Before you can go there, you must describe the conditions. You don't believe it can be done. I'm showing you it can be done.

So feel free to state YOU don't have the capability to prove that we can use our understanding of matter and energy and logic to describe the First Cause. Because I'm proving that I do.

it can't be done since we have no physics that can describe it. And that's not me saying that it physicists that are a hell of a lot smarter than you that are saying that.

We cannot describe the universe in the fractions of a second after we think it started

We cannot describe anything in the fraction of a second before the time we think the universe started.

Hell the Webb telescope is already showing us things we can see that we can't explain.

And knowing 5% of something is not enough to make definitive statements about how everything we don't understand came to be.

That's actual reasoning.

 

[ding]

it can't be done since we have no physics that can describe it. And that's not me saying that it physicists that are a hell of a lot smarter than you that are saying that.

We cannot describe the universe in the fractions of a second after we think it started

We cannot describe anything in the fraction of a second before the time we think the universe started.

Hell the Webb telescope is already showing us things we can see that we can't explain.

And knowing 5% of something is not enough to make definitive statements about how everything we don't understand came to be.

That's actual reasoning.

I literally just did it. Just because you are incapable of doing it doesn't mean others aren't.

1. Logically the only thing that can be eternal is something that is unchanging.
2. From our understanding of matter and energy, matter and energy are not unchanging.
3. Logically matter and energy cannot be an eternal source of creating universes.
4. Which means that whatever the eternal unchanging source is it can't be energy or matter.
5. Hence the only "thing" it could be, would be something which is incorporeal, which is in reality, no "thing".
6. Spirit is no thing.
7. God is spirit.

 

[Blues Man]

I literally just did it. Just because you are incapable of doing it doesn't mean others aren't.

So you have reconciled Einstein's theory so you can describe the behavior of matter and energy at the beginning of time as we know it?

WOW

I bet you're going to get a Nobel prize,

 

[ding]

So you have reconciled Einstein's theory so you can describe the behavior of matter and energy at the beginning of time as we know it?

WOW

I bet you're going to get a Nobel prize,

No. I proved we can know God by studying what he created through the light of human reason.

1. Logically the only thing that can be eternal is something that is unchanging.
2. From our understanding of matter and energy, matter and energy are not unchanging.
3. Logically matter and energy cannot be an eternal source of creating universes.
4. Which means that whatever the eternal unchanging source is it can't be energy or matter.
5. Hence the only "thing" it could be, would be something which is incorporeal, which is in reality, no "thing".
6. Spirit is no thing.
7. God is spirit.

 

[Blues Man]

No. I proved we can know God by studying what he created through the light of human reason.

1. Logically the only thing that can be eternal is something that is unchanging.
2. From our understanding of matter and energy, matter and energy are not unchanging.
3. Logically matter and energy cannot be an eternal source of creating universes.
4. Which means that whatever the eternal unchanging source is it can't be energy or matter.
5. Hence the only "thing" it could be, would be something which is incorporeal, which is in reality, no "thing".
6. Spirit is no thing.
7. God is spirit.

No you didn't.

You ran into what we can't explain and said it's a god.

 

[ding]

No you didn't.

You ran into what we can't explain and said it's a god.

No. I used logic to define the conditions for the first cause and then proceeded from there.

 

[Blues Man]

No. I used logic to define the conditions for the first cause and then proceeded from there.

No you didn't.

you ran into what we don't understand and called a god.

 

[Blues Man]

No you didn't.

you ran into what we don't understand and called a god.

At this point we have exhausted this discourse.

You will never admit you that you are not 100% certain a god did it and I will never agree 100% that we can know with absolute certainty

 

[ding]

No you didn't.

you ran into what we don't understand and called a god.

Sure I did.

The first cause must be eternal.
The first cause must be unchanging.
The first cause can't be matter or energy.

 

[ding]

At this point we have exhausted this discourse.

You will never admit you that you are not 100% certain a god did it and I will never agree 100% that we can know with absolute certainty

You are incapable of understanding logic. I'm not.

 

[Blues Man]

Sure I did.

The first cause must be eternal.
The first cause must be unchanging.
The first cause can't be matter or energy.

You assume it must be eternal

you assume it must be unchanging

you assume the only alternative to matter and energy is a thing you name "spirit"

 

[ding]

You assume it must be eternal

you assume it must be unchanging

you assume the only alternative to matter and energy is a thing you name "spirit"

Great. Tell me how it's not. Take them one at a time. Let's start with the first one.

 

[Blues Man]

Great. Tell me how it's not.

I never claimed I could but that also in no way means you are correct.

Prove to me it is eternal and did not cease to exist after it did what it did.

Prove to me that there is nothing but matter energy and "spirit"

you can do none of these things because they all stop at your supposition of a god and god is just the name you give to what you cannot explain

This is the impasse

This discussion has exhausted itself with no agreement between us.

 

[ding]

I never claimed I could but that also in no way means you are correct.

It kinda does. At least until something better comes along that is. So until then we operate on that basis. That's how logic works.

 

[ding]

Prove to me it is eternal and did not cease to exist after it did what it did.

The first cause must be eternal otherwise it wouldn't be first. There would have been something preceding it that caused it. So the first cause - by definition - must have always been there. It's just logic.

 

[ding]

Prove to me that there is nothing but matter energy and "spirit"

Incorporeal versus corporeal.

or

Intangible versus tangible.

What else is there?

 

[ding]

you can do none of these things because they all stop at your supposition of a god and god is just the name you give to what you cannot explain

I literally just did.