In the Absence of God; Human rights cannot exist.

[Diuretic]

Not according to the Chudnovski brothers, who have distilled pi out to something like 2 billion places. They both believe in God. They believe to understand pi is to see the face of God.

And although the NUMBER pi is random...when charted, it creates an earth landscape which looks like the desert land of Eastern Oregon...or the Middle East.

Chudnovsky Brothers

This shows a crude landscape of pi:
Original Artwork by Daniel Tammet - Optimnem: The Official Website of Daniel Tammet

But I've seen the ones that go out much further, by the Chudnovski brothers and printed in the book "Panic in Level Four"...and it looks like the Painted Hills of Oregon. Or the terrain of Afghanistan and Iraq.
Painted hills oregon pictures - Live Search Images

BTW, I live in that area.

All extremely interesting - and picturesque - I missed the Painted Hills, hat's a shame I would have liked to have seen them, it looks a bit like parts of our outback.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

As I said, it took humans hundreds of years to come up with a reasonable explanation as to how gravity can be explained. At the moment humans are not capable of proving or disproving the existence of a god.

Its closer to 5000 years... but let's not quibble. But Gravity existed LONG BEFORE Humanity even THOUGHT ABOUT the whole 'fall to earth' thing... and what's more... humanity not being able to prove god exists to those that are invested in the idea that God does NOT exist... (or anyone else for that matter, but particularly to you people) has absolutely NO BEARING on the existance of God, what so ever. None... zero, nada... Zilch... and this little absurdity that you're working on here is a fallacious joke.

 

[cjcord]

You see sis, God, like gravity is a self evident force in Nature...

Until he taps me on the shoulder and introduces himself, this has to be tossed under the "personal belief" section. Which is neither scientific evidence or tangible proof. Just because you believe the grass is green, doesn't mean I don;t believe it's blue. And I know you wouldn't tell me my beliefs are WRONG, would you? Of course you wouldn't. They are My beliefs. You stick to your own.

So please, stop reaming out all those who did not drink the God is supreme kool aid. You started an argument on theory vs. proof. God is a theory. There is NO proof of God.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Believers may not need proof, but proving it would probably make you a believer.

ROFL... so you feel that there's some value in a belief of something you know?

I know the suns coming up tomorrow morning... which is the precise level of certainty I have that God exist. Just as I'm know that if I don't gas up the plane, that gravity is going to drastically reduce my 'landing without bending my plane' options... same level of certainty. Now do I rationalize around those certainties? Do I try to ignore the laws and principles when doing so is not convenient or requires great humility or effort on my part, some form of sacrifice that I am not immediately prepared to pay? Of course... I'm a human being, and I screw it up every day... despite my best intentions.

But wihout regard to whether or not I bring my best understanding, judgment, concern, awareness, insight... the sunrise, gravity and God all keep doing what they do, their laws as consistant as... well that sun rise will do... and this despite my occassional screw up.

 

[cjcord]

ROFL... so you feel that there's some value in a belief of something you know?

I know the suns coming up tomorrow morning... which is the precise level of certainty I have that God exist. Just as I'm know that if I don't gas up the plane, that gravity is going to drastically reduce my 'landing without bending my plane' options... same level of certainty. Now do I rationalize around those certainties? Do I try to ignore the laws and principles when doing so is not convenient or requires great humility or effort on my part, some form of sacrifice that I am not immediately prepared to pay? Of course... I'm a human being, and I screw it up every day... despite my best intentions.

But wihout regard to whether or not I bring my best understanding, judgment, concern, awareness, insight... the sunrise, gravity and God all keep doing what they do, their laws as consistant as... well that sun rise will do... and this despite my occassional screw up.

The sun coming over the horizon is a tangible, scientifically proven fact. We know it's there. We see it, we study it. We know the earth rotates, we know it rotates so that the earth is bathed in sunlight every day.

This is not a belief. it is a fact.

Planes were engineered by man to not run very well without gas. Therefore, no gas, no plane flying. This is not a belief, this is fact.

Why would you even waste time trying to rationalize or ignore either one of these facts? That seems silly to me. You can't ignore the fact that your plane will not fly without gas.

And i disagree that God has laws that God follows, but that's a whole different discussion.

So you have proved nothing still. I respect your beliefs, but that is all they are.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Until he taps me on the shoulder and introduces himself, this has to be tossed under the "personal belief" section. Which is neither scientific evidence or tangible proof. Just because you believe the grass is green, doesn't mean I don;t believe it's blue. And I know you wouldn't tell me my beliefs are WRONG, would you? Of course you wouldn't. They are My beliefs. You stick to your own.

So please, stop reaming out all those who did not drink the God is supreme kool aid. You started an argument on theory vs. proof. God is a theory. There is NO proof of God.

Who gives a red rats ass what you believe skippy? You can sit in here and roll out ten thousand capital letter filled words on all the reasons why you don't believe in gravity and if you forget to put your following foot forward in your next step you're going to be subject to the laws inherent in gravity.

That you feel you understand gravity or don't has NO BEARING on you being subject to its existance... The same is true for God. That you reject the evidence... who cares? You can't even get your intellect rapped around this simple little poser. I seriously doubt you're a contender for humanities poin man on "DOES GOD EXIST." But I tell you what, if you can return and present conclusive evidence of exactly what took place, with explanations of what was there and so on... the minute before the big bang... you get back to me and I'll submit your narrow little intellectual ass.

 

[cjcord]

Who gives a red rats ass what you believe skippy? You can sit in here and roll out ten thousand capital letter filled words on all the reasons why you don't believe in gravity and if you forget to put your following foot forward in your next step you're going to be subject to the laws inherent in gravity.

That you feel you understand gravity or don't has NO BEARING on you being subject to its existance... The same is true for God. That you reject the evidence... who cares? You can't even get your intellect rapped around this simple little poser. I seriously doubt you're a contender for humanities poin man on "DOES GOD EXIST." But I tell you what, if you can return and present conclusive evidence of exactly what took place, with explanations of what was there and so on... the minute before the big bang... you get back to me and I'll submit your narrow little intellectual ass.

Well...Skippy. I know gravity exists. It can be felt, and seen, and measured, as another poster pointed out. The same cannot be said for "God".

And...did you just call yourself a simple little poser?

And I cannot tell you what when on AFTER the Big bang even, as I was not there, nor was anyone else to tell the tale. I know the THEORIES of what happened. I know that scientific studies have been done within the realm of what is possible currently. But that is all that it is. A theory. Or four.

But, make that a narrow but tongue I can easily admit it is a theory.

You are too zealous to do the same. So I respect that you have beliefs that have no basis in reality or fact, and you respect that I will continue to learn until I am satisfied with what can be proven. Cheers!

 

[Diuretic]

Humans are funny creatures. We're the only animals on the planet that wonder about things.

A sabre tooth tiger would leap into the air, using its muscles to lift its body against the pull of gravity and then gravity would pull it back down where it would land, heavily one would imagine, on its prey.

Now I know, I just know it don't ask me how, call it intuition, that the sabre-tooth tiger would not at the apogee of its arcing leap suddenly wonder - "why is it I'm able to do this?"

Nor would a human if the human were flinging a spear at prey wonder about the natural forces that allowed him to do so. But later on, reflecting on the hunt after dinner, that human might ponder that question.

And that human might turn to another and ask, "Zog, waddyareckon about this spear thing, I mean, isn't a it a neat trick? I wonder how we can do this? Oh by the way you've got something stuck in your beard, looks like tucker, very untidy".

And maybe Zog, a few week later, tells someone else and they sit down and think about it. Maybe they draw some figures in the dirt, perhaps start to imagine things.

Until that sabre-tooth tiger comes up behind them.

My point is that humans learn from experience and from other humans. We have, during our time as a distinct species on this planet, have built up an amazing store of knowledge. The singular reason for that is that we can communicate with one another and we can communicate in highly abstract terms. And we continually go forward with our knowledge. We can explain natural phenomena, we know so much that we can actually use that knowledge to predict what will happen.

Writing is also a neat human trick. We invented writing, a permanent means of storing and transmitting knowledge. So our ability to know things spread from groups of individuals across the world and through time. Sir Isaac Newton said it, about knowing what he knew because he stood on the shoulders of giants.

Humans, being able to wonder, wondered about the universe they lived in. And being explainers they sought to explain why they existed and why the universe is as it is and the biggie - how it all all got here. God is a hypothesis, a human hypothesis. Humans, apart from being explainers and wonderers are incredibly egoistic. We invented God and we invented God in our own image. How's that for a bit of stupendous cheek?

We've had a few revisions of the model of course, the latest one – God 7.0 which is part of the Christian distribution – is the strongest model so far. Christians admire this version and ignore the other knock-offs such as Shiva and his pantheistic mates. But the existence of various distributions of god is evidence of the supreme arrogance of humanity to believe that we live in a universe created by a god who likes us because we're such cute things and besides god made us so we must be good.

Smart and arrogant, that's us. We have the nerve to believe that a deity made all this for us.

Teenagers we are, totally self-obsessed.

We are looking for explanations still. I am just relieved that some people have been able to put aside their teenage-like self-obsession and try and find out abut the universe rather than opt for the god hypothesis. That's reallly exciting. Religion and the god hypothesis are all very well but I've always thought that theology was such a waste of very good brainpower. All those good minds working on metaphysics which produces absolutely nothing of objective value. Okay, it gave us the grounding for hard science, I'm not knocking it, but having good minds wondering about the face of God seems to me to be a total waste of those minds.

We wonder. We ask questions. We find answers. We express dissatisfaction with those answers and we wonder, we ask questions, we find answers......

If we accepted the god hypothesis then we would not be where we are now. The earliest gods were in the sky, the sun and the moon. If we were still locked in that hypothesis you wouldn't be reading what I've written.

I don't believe in a deity. Big deal, it means nothing to the rest of the world. But you Pub, seem to be absolutely affronted at my belief and take every opportunity to savage and disparage my belief. But have I returned the favour? No. I accept that you Pub and you big and anyone else who reads these words who has a religious belief should be able to hold that belief and practise the rituals that are part of that belief system and to do so without molestation from any individual or the state. It's part of my value system to allow that people should think what they will.

By all means stick with the god hypothesis. Hey you could be right! But let others get on with their own ideas and while you should feel free to engage on equal terms don't feel free to mock and disparage and parade yourself and your beliefs as being superior. Pub you have let your side down in this lengthy thread. You need to reflect on your failures of mind and character and you should atone.

 

[N4mddissent]

But the existence of various distributions of god is evidence of the supreme arrogance of humanity to believe that we live in a universe created by a god who likes us because we're such cute things and besides god made us so we must be good.

Smart and arrogant, that's us. We have the nerve to believe that a deity made all this for us.

Diuretic, reading this reminded me of a great video clip. Sorry if you've seen it before.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1cKD93W3yg"]Link[/ame]

 

[MichaelCollins]

Well...Skippy. I know gravity exists. It can be felt, and seen, and measured, as another poster pointed out. The same cannot be said for "God".

And...did you just call yourself a simple little poser?

And I cannot tell you what when on AFTER the Big bang even, as I was not there, nor was anyone else to tell the tale. I know the THEORIES of what happened. I know that scientific studies have been done within the realm of what is possible currently. But that is all that it is. A theory. Or four.

But, make that a narrow but tongue I can easily admit it is a theory.

You are too zealous to do the same. So I respect that you have beliefs that have no basis in reality or fact, and you respect that I will continue to learn until I am satisfied with what can be proven. Cheers!

Ignore him mate....everyone on the forum does..apart from Diuretic.

He is a cowardly bible bashing jesus freak..who refuses to admit that he surrendered to a fairytale rather than face a much harsher reality of the unknown.

He uses a teenage pseudo (very very pseudo) intellectual writing style...which reveals his lack of reading and education more than any of us could ever do.

 

[Diuretic]

Diuretic, reading this reminded me of a great video clip. Sorry if you've seen it before.

Link

Never seen it before N4 - the bloke is brilliant, thank you for that.

 

[N4mddissent]

Never seen it before N4 - the bloke is brilliant, thank you for that.

No problem. Name is Neil Degrasse Tyson. Astrophysicist at the American Museum of Natural History and director of the Hayden Planetarium. I have a book by him called "Death by Black Hole" which is a collection of essays. Very enjoyable. I recommend it.

 

[Vintij]

A lot of people will tell you, with a great deal of certainty that God does not exist. Now I've noticed that it is VERY common for these SAME people to also believe that they have ALL MANNER of human rights... and I've always been curious as to just what these people believe that these human rights that they lay claim to rest upon? By that I mean where do these rights come from?

Now some will tell you that human rights are a function of the Social Contract... some will quickly explain that human rights come from the government and so it goes...

Below, I am going to lay out a scenario and I'd like the Atheists or the Secular-humanists to chime in as to how they would react to the below scenario and on what basis would they take that action.

Rights are man made. If god created rights, baboons and flamingos would be spending alot more time in court. Idiot. I hate when people say "god given rights" there is no such thing as god given rights. The only reason we are here is because of the KT extinction, only tiny mammals and nocturnal creatures were able to survive.....unlike the dominating species, the dinosaurs. I wonder if they argued about god given rights? Probably not, because they dont exist.

And the reason I am adimant about this is because the people who tend to believe that their rights are god give, are the very crooks who abuse other peoples constitutional given rights. You know, the charlatans who think their rights are better because they were given by a make believe fantasy character in a book. You tool. Perhaps god does exist, certianly I am not one to speak otherwise, but something is certain.....the idea of god from the bible is completely made up and if people knew that that stupid virgin birth story has been told for over ten thousand years to every single culture on the planet, just altered with different names.....they would reconsider the childish, bufoonery of literal interpretation of the king james bible. Do your research, nearly every religion that has ever existed has either the same exact christian story of jesus birth, or a slightly altered one. Its pretty sad. For christ sake, the Mormon church was OFFICIALLY a racist organization up until 1979 but nobody seems to give a shit anymore. As long as you call yourself a man a faith, nobody denies you anything. I have actually spoken with someone who says its a god given right to own a gun? Well in that case its my god given right to buy in bulk.

 

[MichaelCollins]

Rights are man made. If god created rights, baboons and flamingos would be spending alot more time in court. Idiot. I hate when people say "god given rights" there is no such thing as god given rights. The only reason we are here is because of the KT extinction, only tiny mammals and nocturnal creatures were able to survive.....unlike the dominating species, the dinosaurs. I wonder if they argued about god given rights? Probably not, because they dont exist.

And the reason I am adimant about this is because the people who tend to believe that their rights are god give, are the very crooks who abuse other peoples constitutional given rights. You know, the charlatans who think their rights are better because they were given by a make believe fantasy character in a book. You tool. Perhaps god does exist, certianly I am not one to speak otherwise, but something is certain.....the idea of god from the bible is completely made up and if people knew that that stupid virgin birth story has been told for over ten thousand years to every single culture on the planet, just altered with different names.....they would reconsider the childish, bufoonery of literal interpretation of the king james bible. Do your research, nearly every religion that has ever existed has either the same exact christian story of jesus birth, or a slightly altered one. Its pretty sad. For christ sake, the Mormon church was OFFICIALLY a racist organization up until 1979 but nobody seems to give a shit anymore. As long as you call yourself a man a faith, nobody denies you anything. I have actually spoken with someone who says its a god given right to own a gun? Well in that case its my god given right to buy in bulk.

A voice of sanity in a sea of jesus freaks.

 

[N4mddissent]

A voice of sanity in a sea of jesus freaks.

I know the sea is out there, but the last 4 posts have been by atheists. Hmmm...do you think they are scared of being caught up in....The Evil Atheist Conspiracy

 

[cjcord]

And I believe I have already addressed this elsewhere-- but "human rights" are not mentioned in the Bible. Not in either testament. As the posters above have pointed out, correctly, human rights are human made, not God made.

So a discussion of human rights by definition would not include discussion of God. Religious zealots would have nothing to say to this, as their only comments involve "God's will". A discussion not involving God would leave them with nothing to say. See where I'm going here?

Perhaps this is why you're not getting the response you wanted?

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Well...Skippy. I know gravity exists. It can be felt, and seen, and measured, as another poster pointed out. The same cannot be said for "God".

ROFLMNAO... so you feel gravity do ya... well you must truly be special... and to see it... INCREDIBLE! It's amazing that you can see gravity and ya can't see God.


This is what cracks me up about these people: THEY'RE IDIOTS!

She can't feel gravity... and she sure as hell can't see it; yet she is perfectly willing to advance written testimony that she routinely does both.

ROFLMNAO... Leftists.

 

[Vintij]

ROFLMNAO... so you feel gravity do ya... well you must truly be special... and to see it... INCREDIBLE! It's amazing that you can see gravity and ya can't see God.


This is what cracks me up about these people: THEY'RE IDIOTS!

She can't feel gravity... and she sure as hell can't see it; yet she is perfectly willing to advance written testimony that she routinely does both.

ROFLMNAO... Leftists.

Everyone can feel gravity because gravity is a force that governs not only large bodies as discovered by newton and einstein, by small bodies as pointed out by higgs and dirac. If we could not "feel" the effects of gravity from the earth we would feel weightless. Secondly, I think the poster meant they can see the EFFECTS of gravity, which we all can do every single day. Keyword here is effects, because nobody can literally detect and see the force of gravity without sending some type of infrared photon machine out to detect such effects by looking at light bending from nearby galaxy's. The point here is not seeing anything its detecting. Anything governed by the laws of thermodynamics and therefore the laws of the universe can be detected or eventually will be detected. Anything outside of that realm (god, paranormal activity etc....) can not be detected therefore does not garner much attention in the scientific community. For the record I am not an athiest at all, I dont put labels on groups of people who believe different things, its not a biological difference between anyone its just a variation of beliefs based on the way we all grew up. Its human nature to think that everything must be labeled, even labeling the people who oppose labels, but the truth is that athiesm is not suppose to be another religion but many people are turning it into that. It is simply the lack of belief in god, to organize something like that would be silly and counter-intuitive.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Everyone can feel gravity because gravity is a force that governs not only large bodies as discovered by newton and einstein, by small bodies as pointed out by higgs and dirac.

Ok... So the assertion is that 'everyone can feel gravity,' so the question must now become: "What does gravity feel like?"

If we could not "feel" the effects of gravity from the earth we would feel weightless.

Clearly the member now needs to modify their position to one of feeling the 'effects' of gravity... wherein the brain normalizes the force of gravity on the body when one is resting at a constant opposition to that force; which must by default strip any physical notice of gravity while the body is constant with that force; the only 'feeling' is the brains sensing of a delta between that normalized constant and the change of the bodies state with regard to gravity... which would sense a heavy pressure when the body was in opposition, excellerating against that force; and a lightness or weightlessness when the state changes to compliance...

The fact remains that one does not 'feel gravity'... one merely senses a change in the state of their body from what the brain charts as normal, with respect to that force.

Anything governed by the laws of ... the universe can be detected or eventually will be detected. Anything outside of that realm (god, paranormal activity etc....) can not be detected therefore does not garner much attention in the scientific community.

On what basis do you classify God as existing beyond the scope of the laws of the universe? Now let's be honest and simply admit that you have absolutely NO BASIS in fact or reason on which to rest that conjecture. I mean to be able to reasonable come to such a conclusion, one would necessarily need to be in possession of sufficient knowledge regarding the laws of the universe... to know what is and is not within those laws... wouldn't ya? And frankly buddy... you aren't that guy, are ya?

Here let's try this:

Of all of the knowledge, througout the ages, across the scope of time and space throughout the universe... how much would you say that you presently possess?

<1%, 10%, 50%, 75%, 99.9999999...%

Now without regard to that which you feel you possess... (which we're pretty sure is WAY DOWN below that <1% thingy...) isn't it possible that SOMEWHERE in that void of ignorance that a God force could exist without you being able to prove it? And the reason you couldn't prove it would be because you don't know enough about the laws of the universe to even begin to know what the questions are that would even lead you in the right direction.

For the record I am not an athiest at all, I dont put labels on groups of people who believe different things, its not a biological difference between anyone its just a variation of beliefs based on the way we all grew up.

That is absolute BULLSHIT! You don't label, yet you establish, on absolutely NO BASIS, that God, IF he exists, must exist outside the scope of the universe and it's laws... ROFLMNAO... Oh you're a major labeler friend; get that straight and you'll be much happier.

Its human nature to think that everything must be labeled, even labeling the people who oppose labels, but the truth is that athiesm is not suppose to be another religion but many people are turning it into that. It is simply the lack of belief in god, to organize something like that would be silly and counter-intuitive.

Atheism is today what it has always been... the anti-religion, religion. It's the venue on which evil rests... it's the big lie which serves to rationalize a desire to escape accountability. And there are few things on this earth that are sillier than a typical atheist.

 

[Diuretic]

And there are few things on this earth that are sillier than a typical atheist.

Wanna bet?

[ame=http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=LMmaNHVc3RM]YouTube - BLAIR ON RELIGION *I DIDN'T WANT TO BE LABELED A NUTTER*[/ame]