Is defining what socialism really is all that tough?

[georgephillip]

I blame bankers.
What about you?
"A plague of finance
Anti-globalists see the 'Washington consensus' as a conspiracy to enrich bankers. They are not entirely wrong"

A plague of finance

The banking industry, in theory, is a great benefit to industry and commerce by providing equity/credit to establish new or expand existing businesses.

But when bankers control the government, the population is reduced to servants to the government, and the banks indirectly, and then eventually to slavery itself.

Industrial capitalism has turned into finance (FIRE sector) capitalism which has created a kind of "balance sheet wealth" not by new tangible investment and employment but in the form of debt leveraging and rent extraction.

FIRE economy - Wikipedia

"A FIRE economy is any economy based primarily on the Finance, Insurance, and Real Estate sectors. Finance, insurance, and real estate are United States census bureau classifications.

"Barry Popik describes some early uses as far back as 1982.[1]

"Since 2008, the term has been commonly used by Michael Hudson[2] and Eric Janszen.[3]

"It is New York City's largest industry and a prominent part of the service industry in the U.S. overall economy and other Western, developed countries."

I don't think this tendency would have changed if Clinton had won in 2016, but she probably would have done a better job of hiding its influence.

 

[georgephillip]

They occur when Greedy UNETHICAL PEOPLE are in Charge............No Form of Gov't works with UNETHICAL people at the helm.

They just scuttle the ship.

Can you think of a time when capitalism rewarded ethical behavior?

Unless It Changes, Capitalism Will Starve Humanity By 2050
"Corporate capitalism is committed to the relentless pursuit of growth, even if it ravages the planet and threatens human health.

"We need to build a new system: one that will balance economic growth with sustainability and human flourishing."

It appears to many that the profit motive virtually precludes ethical business practices; how would fossil fuel corporations profit if they were forced to pay the clean-up costs their industry inflicts on the climate, for example?

Private profits; social costs.

Throw out the unethical politicians and it fixes itself........but that is virtually impossible these days......In regards to oil........do you walk to work......LOL

Actually, I walk or take public transportation everywhere I go; haven't had a car in 25 years and don't even miss it anymore. I see how important fossil fuels have been to the global economy over the past century, but I don't see any reason why a handful of individuals should have become filthy rich from their use?

The Rockefellers: The Legacy Of History's Richest Man

 

[JimBowie1958]

A guy buys a gallon of ice cream.......makes the money.........the socialist takes it all and gives him back what he deserves.............the guy buying the ice cream goes why the hell should I have to buy it for everyone else........that guy is getting it for free.............this sucks.........

So the guy working and buying the ice cream...........says fuck it.......stops working ........and gets in line with the others for the free ice cream........

Then stuck in the line for ice cream..........everyone goes where's the ice cream.........

Somebody says no one is buying Ice Cream anymore............there you go.......Socialism.

You think that is how it works in Denmark, Iceland, Sweden, Norway and Finland?

lol

 

[JimBowie1958]

View attachment 236351

You show your consent by remaining in the nation that taxes you.

So if you dont like taxes, leave. Find a country that doesnt tax anyone.

Good luck with that.

 

[JimBowie1958]

There are many flavors of ice cream but at the end of the day it's still just ice cream

That is funny.

The left might respond that there is no difference between fascism, monarchism and Conservatism since they all want to protect oppressors.

That is the problem with ideologues; to them everything is a nail because all they have is a hammer.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I understand all of those and disagree with your assessment that the Nordic model is workable.

Not workable? When you look at the purchase parity average incomes, it is far more workable than what we have. Look at Iceland how well they handled the banking finance crisis or Finland Far better than the more capitalist countries of Europe like Germany or France. Compared to the Mediteranean sphere of the EU, capitalism there has been an unmitigated disaster.

American conservatives like to promote Venezuela as the epitome of socialism, but never bring up Greece or Argentina.

First of all, the most populace of those countries has the population approximately that of Minnesota...The most "successful" -Norway- has the nationalized North Sea oil patch to support its gigantic welfare state.....Sweden has run out of things to tax and its politicians have run out of free shit to bribe the masses with, in order to get elected.

Top 20 nations ranked by Nominal average incomes.

Iceland 61,787 90,662

Switzerland 62,283 88,159

Luxembourg 63,062 71,710

Norway 51,212 65,786

Denmark 51,466 65,674

Australia 49,126 61,620

United States 60,558 60,558

Ireland 47,653 53,112

Netherlands 52,877 52,705

Canada 47,622 50,033

Belgium 49,675 49,419

Austria 50,349 48,306

Sweden 42,393 47,783

New Zealand 40,043 46,917

Finland 42,964 46,772

United Kingdom 43,732 45,280

Germany 47,585 44,466

France 43,755 42,410

Israel 35,067 42,378

Japan 40,863 38,234

So, yeah, Norway has North Sea oil, but little Denmark has no huge natural resources, and yet performs almost as well as Norway does.

All the Nordic model nations are in the top 20 while many capitalist nations did not make the list at all. The worst, Finland, still did better than the UK, Germany orFrance and Japan.

The evidence suggests that Nordic model socialism works much better than capitalism on the average.

Laissez-faire brough Murica from near bankruptcy to its position as the globe's economic superpower in about a century....It's the ONLY way out now.

Lol, no, I disagree. Androids with Strong AI are coming out soon, and costs are estimated at around $2k per android.

As labor markets collapse slowly over the course of ten to twenty years, Nordic Model Socialism will stand out as the most humane and successful economic system by far as it does already.

Nordic model is based on the foundation of free market capitalism with a strong social state.

While businesses are low taxed, personal income are taxed among highest in the world.

On a $55,000 income in Denmark you would pay 60.2% to the state. In Norway, personal income tax border with 55%. Don't forget VAT of 25% in both countries.

You wan't that in US? No thanks... unlike Nordic countries, we have too many leeches and welfare parasites not willing to work or contribute to the economy in any way. They don't have that mentality there, and you start seeing how they cutting the benefits for immigrants they let in when their funds start drying out.

90% of Denmark are of Danish origin, and only 8% of others are already overwhelming the system.
83% of Norway are of Norwegian origin, 8% from other parts of Europe and 8% from elsewhere, and they too having a problem financing the welfare state. That too is changing, they learned the lesson.

By either nominal wage averages or PPP which looks at take-home purchasing power of income, Nordic Model Socialism beats the heck out of Wild West Capitalism. Period.

We have a similar system some call hybrid capitalism, half capitalist and half regulatory socialism. The only problem is that in the USA we still try to pretend that there is no socialism in our system to attribute our success to.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Actually, socialism is hard to define for at least a few of the extreme right wingers on this board. In another thread a week or so ago, a couple of them told me that the Nazis were socialists. Possibly not everyone understands the concept.

Dude, the Nazis were Socialists, as were the Communist Utopias. That does not mean that all forms of socialism are tainted with that dehumanizing label.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Socialism is lazy fat ass moochers who want other people to pay their bills for them.

Like retired veterans or people on Social Security retirement?

Yeah, lazy moochers, roflmao.

 

[skews13]

“You Conservatives don’t even know what socialism is.”
That seems to be the common thing said among the LefTarded beggars these days....Have they created their own definitions?

so·cial·ism
/ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/
noun
noun: socialism

1. a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
   synonyms: leftism, welfarism; More
   radicalism, progressivism, social democracy;y
   communism, Marxism, labor movement
   "my appreciation for certain aspects of socialism does not mean I'm a socialist"
   • policy or practice based on the political and economic theory of socialism.
     synonyms: leftism, welfarism; More
     radicalism, progressivism, social democracy;
     communism, Marxism, labor movement
     "my appreciation for certain aspects of socialism does not mean I'm a socialist"
   • (in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of communism.

How quaint that your screen name is broke loser....eh?

 

[Oddball]

By either nominal wage averages or PPP which looks at take-home purchasing power of income, Nordic Model Socialism beats the heck out of Wild West Capitalism. Period.

We have a similar system some call hybrid capitalism, half capitalist and half regulatory socialism. The only problem is that in the USA we still try to pretend that there is no socialism in our system to attribute our success to.

"Western capitalism" has been bastardized for over a century, to the point where it's a mere ghost of its former self...So there's no credible frame of reference to claim that the Nordic model is better.

 

[Mac1958]

I understand all of those and disagree with your assessment that the Nordic model is workable.

Not workable? When you look at the purchase parity average incomes, it is far more workable than what we have. Look at Iceland how well they handled the banking finance crisis or Finland Far better than the more capitalist countries of Europe like Germany or France. Compared to the Mediteranean sphere of the EU, capitalism there has been an unmitigated disaster.

American conservatives like to promote Venezuela as the epitome of socialism, but never bring up Greece or Argentina.

First of all, the most populace of those countries has the population approximately that of Minnesota...The most "successful" -Norway- has the nationalized North Sea oil patch to support its gigantic welfare state.....Sweden has run out of things to tax and its politicians have run out of free shit to bribe the masses with, in order to get elected.

Top 20 nations ranked by Nominal average incomes.

Iceland 61,787 90,662

Switzerland 62,283 88,159

Luxembourg 63,062 71,710

Norway 51,212 65,786

Denmark 51,466 65,674

Australia 49,126 61,620

United States 60,558 60,558

Ireland 47,653 53,112

Netherlands 52,877 52,705

Canada 47,622 50,033

Belgium 49,675 49,419

Austria 50,349 48,306

Sweden 42,393 47,783

New Zealand 40,043 46,917

Finland 42,964 46,772

United Kingdom 43,732 45,280

Germany 47,585 44,466

France 43,755 42,410

Israel 35,067 42,378

Japan 40,863 38,234

So, yeah, Norway has North Sea oil, but little Denmark has no huge natural resources, and yet performs almost as well as Norway does.

All the Nordic model nations are in the top 20 while many capitalist nations did not make the list at all. The worst, Finland, still did better than the UK, Germany orFrance and Japan.

The evidence suggests that Nordic model socialism works much better than capitalism on the average.

Laissez-faire brough Murica from near bankruptcy to its position as the globe's economic superpower in about a century....It's the ONLY way out now.

Lol, no, I disagree. Androids with Strong AI are coming out soon, and costs are estimated at around $2k per android.

As labor markets collapse slowly over the course of ten to twenty years, Nordic Model Socialism will stand out as the most humane and successful economic system by far as it does already.

Nordic model is based on the foundation of free market capitalism with a strong social state.

While businesses are low taxed, personal income are taxed among highest in the world.

On a $55,000 income in Denmark you would pay 60.2% to the state. In Norway, personal income tax border with 55%. Don't forget VAT of 25% in both countries.

You wan't that in US? No thanks... unlike Nordic countries, we have too many leeches and welfare parasites not willing to work or contribute to the economy in any way. They don't have that mentality there, and you start seeing how they cutting the benefits for immigrants they let in when their funds start drying out.

90% of Denmark are of Danish origin, and only 8% of others are already overwhelming the system.
83% of Norway are of Norwegian origin, 8% from other parts of Europe and 8% from elsewhere, and they too having a problem financing the welfare state. That too is changing, they learned the lesson.

By either nominal wage averages or PPP which looks at take-home purchasing power of income, Nordic Model Socialism beats the heck out of Wild West Capitalism. Period.

We have a similar system some call hybrid capitalism, half capitalist and half regulatory socialism. The only problem is that in the USA we still try to pretend that there is no socialism in our system to attribute our success to.

Yep. The problem is that so many get their "news" and "information" from sources that avoid any kind of nuance, i.e., if you don't hate all government you must want us to be just like Venezuela.

The fact that socio-economic systems exist along a continuum is simply too complicated for them. You just can't get there from here.
.

 

[eagle1462010]

I understand all of those and disagree with your assessment that the Nordic model is workable.

Not workable? When you look at the purchase parity average incomes, it is far more workable than what we have. Look at Iceland how well they handled the banking finance crisis or Finland Far better than the more capitalist countries of Europe like Germany or France. Compared to the Mediteranean sphere of the EU, capitalism there has been an unmitigated disaster.

American conservatives like to promote Venezuela as the epitome of socialism, but never bring up Greece or Argentina.

First of all, the most populace of those countries has the population approximately that of Minnesota...The most "successful" -Norway- has the nationalized North Sea oil patch to support its gigantic welfare state.....Sweden has run out of things to tax and its politicians have run out of free shit to bribe the masses with, in order to get elected.

Top 20 nations ranked by Nominal average incomes.

Iceland 61,787 90,662

Switzerland 62,283 88,159

Luxembourg 63,062 71,710

Norway 51,212 65,786

Denmark 51,466 65,674

Australia 49,126 61,620

United States 60,558 60,558

Ireland 47,653 53,112

Netherlands 52,877 52,705

Canada 47,622 50,033

Belgium 49,675 49,419

Austria 50,349 48,306

Sweden 42,393 47,783

New Zealand 40,043 46,917

Finland 42,964 46,772

United Kingdom 43,732 45,280

Germany 47,585 44,466

France 43,755 42,410

Israel 35,067 42,378

Japan 40,863 38,234

So, yeah, Norway has North Sea oil, but little Denmark has no huge natural resources, and yet performs almost as well as Norway does.

All the Nordic model nations are in the top 20 while many capitalist nations did not make the list at all. The worst, Finland, still did better than the UK, Germany orFrance and Japan.

The evidence suggests that Nordic model socialism works much better than capitalism on the average.

Laissez-faire brough Murica from near bankruptcy to its position as the globe's economic superpower in about a century....It's the ONLY way out now.

Lol, no, I disagree. Androids with Strong AI are coming out soon, and costs are estimated at around $2k per android.

As labor markets collapse slowly over the course of ten to twenty years, Nordic Model Socialism will stand out as the most humane and successful economic system by far as it does already.

Nordic model is based on the foundation of free market capitalism with a strong social state.

While businesses are low taxed, personal income are taxed among highest in the world.

On a $55,000 income in Denmark you would pay 60.2% to the state. In Norway, personal income tax border with 55%. Don't forget VAT of 25% in both countries.

You wan't that in US? No thanks... unlike Nordic countries, we have too many leeches and welfare parasites not willing to work or contribute to the economy in any way. They don't have that mentality there, and you start seeing how they cutting the benefits for immigrants they let in when their funds start drying out.

90% of Denmark are of Danish origin, and only 8% of others are already overwhelming the system.
83% of Norway are of Norwegian origin, 8% from other parts of Europe and 8% from elsewhere, and they too having a problem financing the welfare state. That too is changing, they learned the lesson.

By either nominal wage averages or PPP which looks at take-home purchasing power of income, Nordic Model Socialism beats the heck out of Wild West Capitalism. Period.

We have a similar system some call hybrid capitalism, half capitalist and half regulatory socialism. The only problem is that in the USA we still try to pretend that there is no socialism in our system to attribute our success to.

Yep. The problem is that so many get their "news" and "information" from sources that avoid any kind of nuance, i.e., if you don't hate all government you must want us to be just like Venezuela.

The fact that socio-economic systems exist along a continuum is simply too complicated for them. You just can't get there from here.
.

Venezuela is a good example yep.............

Now can you say how California having the highest State Taxes in the country, very high property taxes, highest gas prices with the exception of Hawaii, some of the highest utility prices in the country...........HELPS THE POOR............

Maybe you'll answer that..........no other seems to be able to explain that properly.

If you can do that please tell me about the yellow vests while your at it.

 

[BluesLegend]

Socialism is lazy fat ass moochers who want other people to pay their bills for them.

Like retired veterans or people on Social Security retirement?

Yeah, lazy moochers, roflmao.

No, fat ass lazy mooching Dem welfare losers.

 

[Ame®icano]

Actually, socialism is hard to define for at least a few of the extreme right wingers on this board. In another thread a week or so ago, a couple of them told me that the Nazis were socialists. Possibly not everyone understands the concept.

Government solves all problems for the right wing.

 

[danielpalos]

look mom; the right wing still has nothing but memes, but complain about me asking for any rebuttal and the right wing, refusing.

 

[JimBowie1958]

"Western capitalism" has been bastardized for over a century, to the point where it's a mere ghost of its former self...So there's no credible frame of reference to claim that the Nordic model is better.

Wow, kind of like 'no true communism has never been tried?'

You are thinking like an ideologue, not a free thinking rational adult

 

[JimBowie1958]

Actually, socialism is hard to define for at least a few of the extreme right wingers on this board. In another thread a week or so ago, a couple of them told me that the Nazis were socialists. Possibly not everyone understands the concept.

Government solves all problems for the right wing.

View attachment 236462

right-vrs-left is a very narrow, shallow dimensional analysis to problem solving.

That is all I am concerned with; how do we remove the oligarchs and put best of the American people in charge?

 

[JimBowie1958]

Socialism is lazy fat ass moochers who want other people to pay their bills for them.

Like retired veterans or people on Social Security retirement?
Yeah, lazy moochers, roflmao.

No, fat ass lazy mooching Dem welfare losers.

So no one on Social Security retirement or retired veterans are Dimocrats?

 

[Mac1958]

I understand all of those and disagree with your assessment that the Nordic model is workable.

Not workable? When you look at the purchase parity average incomes, it is far more workable than what we have. Look at Iceland how well they handled the banking finance crisis or Finland Far better than the more capitalist countries of Europe like Germany or France. Compared to the Mediteranean sphere of the EU, capitalism there has been an unmitigated disaster.

American conservatives like to promote Venezuela as the epitome of socialism, but never bring up Greece or Argentina.

First of all, the most populace of those countries has the population approximately that of Minnesota...The most "successful" -Norway- has the nationalized North Sea oil patch to support its gigantic welfare state.....Sweden has run out of things to tax and its politicians have run out of free shit to bribe the masses with, in order to get elected.

Top 20 nations ranked by Nominal average incomes.

Iceland 61,787 90,662

Switzerland 62,283 88,159

Luxembourg 63,062 71,710

Norway 51,212 65,786

Denmark 51,466 65,674

Australia 49,126 61,620

United States 60,558 60,558

Ireland 47,653 53,112

Netherlands 52,877 52,705

Canada 47,622 50,033

Belgium 49,675 49,419

Austria 50,349 48,306

Sweden 42,393 47,783

New Zealand 40,043 46,917

Finland 42,964 46,772

United Kingdom 43,732 45,280

Germany 47,585 44,466

France 43,755 42,410

Israel 35,067 42,378

Japan 40,863 38,234

So, yeah, Norway has North Sea oil, but little Denmark has no huge natural resources, and yet performs almost as well as Norway does.

All the Nordic model nations are in the top 20 while many capitalist nations did not make the list at all. The worst, Finland, still did better than the UK, Germany orFrance and Japan.

The evidence suggests that Nordic model socialism works much better than capitalism on the average.

Laissez-faire brough Murica from near bankruptcy to its position as the globe's economic superpower in about a century....It's the ONLY way out now.

Lol, no, I disagree. Androids with Strong AI are coming out soon, and costs are estimated at around $2k per android.

As labor markets collapse slowly over the course of ten to twenty years, Nordic Model Socialism will stand out as the most humane and successful economic system by far as it does already.

Nordic model is based on the foundation of free market capitalism with a strong social state.

While businesses are low taxed, personal income are taxed among highest in the world.

On a $55,000 income in Denmark you would pay 60.2% to the state. In Norway, personal income tax border with 55%. Don't forget VAT of 25% in both countries.

You wan't that in US? No thanks... unlike Nordic countries, we have too many leeches and welfare parasites not willing to work or contribute to the economy in any way. They don't have that mentality there, and you start seeing how they cutting the benefits for immigrants they let in when their funds start drying out.

90% of Denmark are of Danish origin, and only 8% of others are already overwhelming the system.
83% of Norway are of Norwegian origin, 8% from other parts of Europe and 8% from elsewhere, and they too having a problem financing the welfare state. That too is changing, they learned the lesson.

By either nominal wage averages or PPP which looks at take-home purchasing power of income, Nordic Model Socialism beats the heck out of Wild West Capitalism. Period.

We have a similar system some call hybrid capitalism, half capitalist and half regulatory socialism. The only problem is that in the USA we still try to pretend that there is no socialism in our system to attribute our success to.

Yep. The problem is that so many get their "news" and "information" from sources that avoid any kind of nuance, i.e., if you don't hate all government you must want us to be just like Venezuela.

The fact that socio-economic systems exist along a continuum is simply too complicated for them. You just can't get there from here.
.

Venezuela is a good example yep.............

Now can you say how California having the highest State Taxes in the country, very high property taxes, highest gas prices with the exception of Hawaii, some of the highest utility prices in the country...........HELPS THE POOR............

Maybe you'll answer that..........no other seems to be able to explain that properly.

If you can do that please tell me about the yellow vests while your at it.

And right on cue.
.

 

[danielpalos]

Government is socialism.