Is homosexuality a choice, a mental illness or something simply inherent?

[emilynghiem]

Hi [MENTION=49586]Inevitable[/MENTION]: Thanks this helps me to clarify your position.

1. I understand since [MENTION=46353]GreenBean[/MENTION] also does not follow this "Christian healing of abuse" that is why he uses the term "mental illness" because this other way of describing the process seems to draw a blank with him.

You don't call them homosexual, and in a way that is what they are saying also. They acknowledge it is not naturally who they are, so they cannot be the same as people who report they are naturally homosexual. He sees it is working for these people, but can't define it using secular terms besides "mental illness" which clearly falls short -- as these people do not use it themselves either to describe their experiences.

Because I agree GB has such problems with his posts, that is why I VALUE his effort to clarify (which I also used to try to explain to GISMYS about his posts as well).
At least what he posted was helpful in these ways, so I am thankful for that help.

2. I agree these experiences are TOTALLY DIFFERENT from what you are talking about with naturally born/not a choice.
These SHOULD be kept separate or it is harmful/dangerous to apply the wrong approach to the wrong people. It hurts both sides, and hurts additionally when they both blame the other for imposing.

I see you are saying the same thing from another angle: that these people are NOT the same as naturally born homosexual because they themselves AGREE they are naturally homosexual!

Inevitable I am PERFECTLY okay with you saying these people ARE heterosexual and there was "something else going on" but they were NOT "naturally homosexual."

That is close to saying the same thing, it acknowledges their NATURAL selves/orientation was always heterosexual. (The mistakes get made when anyone assumes that "all cases are like that" as GB was assuming; or saying these cases don't happen at all.)

I agree in general that you can neither take someone who is naturally homosexual and "make them or change them into heterosexual" nor can someone who is naturally heterosexual "make or change themselves into homosexual."

What is changing is the SEXUAL BEHAVIOR or attraction (or addiction in some cases) whether it is expressed as homosexual or heterosexual. if someone describes their OWN process as "changing their orientation" they mean the same as what you said they must be referring to their natural orientation and not anything false that isn't naturally them.

What we don't agree on is the distinction, process, and language describing people who went through changes. GB kept saying ALL cases are like these, and that isn't true: they even report that doesn't apply to all. It is on some level that it is best to let people describe their own process, and not put words in their mouths, and not try to speak for others.

3. I still think GreenBean made a great improvement by posting direct links for people to describe their own changes (in place of putting his words to it that they don't use either).

So that seemed to solve part of the problem at least.

Your way of describing what they went through is close enough, too, even though that's not how they say it either; neither your way or GB way, but it is still the same process.

If we all agree "their process is valid for them" that's good enough.
If we agree NOT ALL cases are like that, that's even better.

4. The part that neither GreenBean nor you may understand in full, are the really rare and distinct cases of "demonic" influences that cause some behaviors, and yes these can manifest as "mental illness" such as schizophrenia, but not all cases have this level of "demonic" entities. There is not LANGUAGE in the psychiatric system for that level, and Dr. Scott Peck recognized this need for a distinct diagnosis and process of managing/treating that level of demonic voices/personality that was manifesting as Schizophrenia.

Dr. Francis MacNutt denounces the "false faith healers" and others forcing judgment by assuming that "all homosexuality is caused by demons" and causing deeper injury and damage.

This level requires such discernment, that people who are not comfortable addressing that such a level exists are best to stay away.

In the meantime, it causes conflict over the language because there aren't adequate words to describe or distinguish these levels. the truly demonic cases are so rare, it is best to leave that to the experts. it is too dangerous for laypeople to think they have this knowledge and start imposing and harming people.

It really isn't fair to assume these things are all "mental illness" for lack of better terms, so that's why I prefer to pursue the research necessary to develop the spiritual therapy field in order to clarify these distinctions and reduce the risk of harm caused in the meantime.

I understand why people fault each other, because the descriptions we use are still not all inclusive of what is going on. It's close enough, I think your explanation is closer, but others here argue GB is closer. They are both in the grey area, and only the real experts in distinguishing these cases from each other can sort out black and white, including which ones are the demonic influences spread by abuse and which are something else.

That is causing so much confusion and imposed judgment, I can see why it is easier just to drop it and not try to discuss those cases, or people think all of them are like that.

Thanks to you both for your help to clarify as much as we can.
Yours truly,
Emily

Dear [MENTION=49586]Inevitable[/MENTION] thanks again for putting up with all of this and us on your thread.
if there is any therapy going on, this is what it looks like. not a pretty process.

Please let's give GreenBean some credit.
He did post links that included references to real people
who attribute some of their experiences to sexual abuse.

People Can Change - An alternative, healing response to unwanted homosexual desires.

[MENTION=22295]emilynghiem[/MENTION]First, no, I don't give greenbean any credit. He doesn't deserve any. He doesn't seem capable of posting an argument that isn't peppered with pathetic attempts to insult and childish name calling. Second I find the link to be dubious I will explain but first:

People Can Change exists to serve only the man who is dissatisfied with his homosexual feelings, dissatisfied with a homosexual life, and for whom pursuing change feels to him that it may be a healing path to his true self.

I don't believe sexual orientation is something that can be changed. As for those claiming to have changed, they are either one of three things: 1) lying to themselves. 2) they are bisexual. 3) heterosexuals that were simply experimenting.

If a short person was dissatisfied with feeling short, dissatisfied with short life and for whom pursuing change (getting taller) feels to him to be a healing path, can these people at "People can Change" make him taller? If not, I really don't buy thatthey can alter anything else. It's fraud.

I don't believe sexual abuse is at all a contributing factor to homosexuality in any case any more than the phase of the moon at the time of birth.

I don't buy thatsexual abuse is the slightest factor in any case with regard to sexual orientation.

For what, finding a link to quacks that claim that you can Change" your sexual orientation? No, all one needs is to type that into Google.

And when he compared with Native American tendency or susceptibility to alcohol
or other addiction patterns, there is a comparable process there but if so it is more of
a "spiritual process" than a mental disorder.
both AA refer to alcoholism as a disease, but it is in the spirit where it is healed
before the mind and body follow.

I agree, but we aren't discussing addiction oranything at all related to addiction. I don't believe people are gay because they are addicted to being gay. That is like saying somebody is addicted to being attracted to the opposite sex because they prefer romantic partners of the opposite sex. I don't wish to discuss sexual addiction because it in no way relates to sexual orientation.

and the Center for Healing of Racism refers to racism as a disease passed down in the spirit. they do not refer to it as a mental disorder.
and they see all people as affected on different levels, so nobody is labeled anything.
they also focus on healing it in spirit first, then the mind, then relations in the world.
Again the links GB provided seem to follow a more "spiritual process" like these,
where each person's path is different and does not define anyone else but them.

Racism is an idea that is taught by adults to children. I don't believe sexual orientation is taught to people any more than a tall person was taught to be tall. I don't believe spiritual healing has any effect what so ever on sexual orientation, Amy more thanspiritual healing can make a short person taller.

I am sorry, I just don't believe that sexual orientation is a symptom of sexual abuse in any case. I find the idea rather demeaning and preposterous. Sexual addictions, sexual proclivities, and sexual obsessions are all unrelated to sexual orientation and therefore have nothing to do with this discussion. To say somebody could spiritually heal from say a sexual obsession would not really have any effect on their orientation.

 

[GISMYS]

ALMIGHTY GOD'S WORD ON HOMOSEXUALS LIVING IN SEXUAL PERVERSION==do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10==Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Romans 1:24-27

 

[emilynghiem]

I like that, MYOB. I do. Part of my business is being true to myself. Gays never hurt me, and are no threat to me I am aware of. I am being honest. But, neither have schizophrenics or voyeurs. Neither have fetishist for feet. I don't feel that Homosexuals either should be seen separate from the mentally ill nor should they be treated as a class of people devoid of civil rights, especially when it comes down to marriage. This makes a mockery of heterosexual unions that produce children that ACTUALY deserve sanctity.

Injustice concerns us all. MYOB is not a valid way to go about your life. Think back to the racial injustices of the 50s. Where would minding our own business have led?

For laws to be considered just and right they must be applied equally to all regardless of irrelevant differences. In the case of marriage, because all religious institutions (who have marriage) may perform them and those marriages be equally acknowledged under the law, a religion which may not object to same-0sex marriages must also receive that recognition by the government. To recognize some, but not all is unjust. Simple as that.

Hi [MENTION=46449]Delta4Embassy[/MENTION] this is a VERY Fair statement, but i see both sides think it applies to them and not to the other side.
the problem is if people with beliefs for gay marriage and the people with beliefs against gay marriage do not respect and include both beliefs equally,
then the laws written and voted on in this spirit do not respect equal inclusion.

I see both sides trying to INVALIDATE the other's beliefs as wrongful.

So either the laws need to be written by people who can respect and include all beliefs equally, or keep this out of govt altogether if they just cannot separate their beliefs from govt any other way.

For mediation to be neutral and all inclusive, it may need to be taken out of state hands,
worked out in an open all inclusive environment without the political pressures,
and then after agreements are reached that satisfy all sides on how to write or interpret laws then take those consensual solutions and implement those as policy.

Trying to decide the laws when both sides are fighting for political power to invalidate or overrule the other is as distracting and detrimental to the democratic process as two parents fighting over custody with guns in their hands, trying to force judges and legislators to favor their way. That is not going to lead to any orderly solution.

Going into the process, we already have extra problems and pressures where people on both sides do not see the other beliefs as valid, but only see their side is being imposed upon or discriminated against by the other. Of course each feels threatened, but to exclude the other views as invalid is not the solution either but makes the problem twice the mess!

A consensus is needed to resolve all conflicts and respect all views; but given the political and emotional pressures, that needs to be addressed and resolved first before the issues of law can be worked out in a mutually respecting and inclusive environment. We don't even have that right now, because of the entanglements causing such breach of trust.

 

[GISMYS]

little man's ideas,opinions,beliefs about sexual perversion count for nothing. ALMIGHTY GOD has the first and last WORD=ALMIGHTY GOD'S WORD ON HOMOSEXUALS LIVING IN SEXUAL PERVERSION==do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10==Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Romans 1:24-27

 

[Mad_Cabbie]

Gismys, this thread is not about the bible, thanks.

 

[Mad_Cabbie]

.

..have removed homosexuality from the lists of mental disorders even though there is clearly no psychosis caused by homosexuality,

False - repeatedly Refuted

Good one! Next time someone tries to pin me down ... and I REALLY don't feel like proving to folks that I JUST DON'T know - I'm using that puppy!

Thanks!

 

[Inevitable]

Hi [MENTION=49586]Inevitable[/MENTION]: Thanks this helps me to clarify your position.

1. I understand since [MENTION=46353]GreenBean[/MENTION] also does not follow this "Christian healing of abuse" that is why he uses the term "mental illness" because this other way of describing the process seems to draw a blank with him.

You don't call them homosexual, and in a way that is what they are saying also. They acknowledge it is not naturally who they are, so they cannot be the same as people who report they are naturally homosexual. He sees it is working for these people, but can't define it using secular terms besides "mental illness" which clearly falls short -- as these people do not use it themselves either to describe their experiences.

Because I agree GB has such problems with his posts, that is why I VALUE his effort to clarify (which I also used to try to explain to GISMYS about his posts as well).
At least what he posted was helpful in these ways, so I am thankful for that help.

2. I agree these experiences are TOTALLY DIFFERENT from what you are talking about with naturally born/not a choice.
These SHOULD be kept separate or it is harmful/dangerous to apply the wrong approach to the wrong people. It hurts both sides, and hurts additionally when they both blame the other for imposing.

I see you are saying the same thing from another angle: that these people are NOT the same as naturally born homosexual because they themselves AGREE they are naturally homosexual!

Inevitable I am PERFECTLY okay with you saying these people ARE heterosexual and there was "something else going on" but they were NOT "naturally homosexual."

That is close to saying the same thing, it acknowledges their NATURAL selves/orientation was always heterosexual. (The mistakes get made when anyone assumes that "all cases are like that" as GB was assuming; or saying these cases don't happen at all.)

I agree in general that you can neither take someone who is naturally homosexual and "make them or change them into heterosexual" nor can someone who is naturally heterosexual "make or change themselves into homosexual."

What is changing is the SEXUAL BEHAVIOR or attraction (or addiction in some cases) whether it is expressed as homosexual or heterosexual. if someone describes their OWN process as "changing their orientation" they mean the same as what you said they must be referring to their natural orientation and not anything false that isn't naturally them.

What we don't agree on is the distinction, process, and language describing people who went through changes. GB kept saying ALL cases are like these, and that isn't true: they even report that doesn't apply to all. It is on some level that it is best to let people describe their own process, and not put words in their mouths, and not try to speak for others.

3. I still think GreenBean made a great improvement by posting direct links for people to describe their own changes (in place of putting his words to it that they don't use either).

So that seemed to solve part of the problem at least.

Your way of describing what they went through is close enough, too, even though that's not how they say it either; neither your way or GB way, but it is still the same process.

If we all agree "their process is valid for them" that's good enough.
If we agree NOT ALL cases are like that, that's even better.

4. The part that neither GreenBean nor you may understand in full, are the really rare and distinct cases of "demonic" influences that cause some behaviors, and yes these can manifest as "mental illness" such as schizophrenia, but not all cases have this level of "demonic" entities. There is not LANGUAGE in the psychiatric system for that level, and Dr. Scott Peck recognized this need for a distinct diagnosis and process of managing/treating that level of demonic voices/personality that was manifesting as Schizophrenia.

Dr. Francis MacNutt denounces the "false faith healers" and others forcing judgment by assuming that "all homosexuality is caused by demons" and causing deeper injury and damage.

This level requires such discernment, that people who are not comfortable addressing that such a level exists are best to stay away.

In the meantime, it causes conflict over the language because there aren't adequate words to describe or distinguish these levels. the truly demonic cases are so rare, it is best to leave that to the experts. it is too dangerous for laypeople to think they have this knowledge and start imposing and harming people.

It really isn't fair to assume these things are all "mental illness" for lack of better terms, so that's why I prefer to pursue the research necessary to develop the spiritual therapy field in order to clarify these distinctions and reduce the risk of harm caused in the meantime.

I understand why people fault each other, because the descriptions we use are still not all inclusive of what is going on. It's close enough, I think your explanation is closer, but others here argue GB is closer. They are both in the grey area, and only the real experts in distinguishing these cases from each other can sort out black and white, including which ones are the demonic influences spread by abuse and which are something else.

That is causing so much confusion and imposed judgment, I can see why it is easier just to drop it and not try to discuss those cases, or people think all of them are like that.

Thanks to you both for your help to clarify as much as we can.
Yours truly,
Emily

Dear [MENTION=49586]Inevitable[/MENTION] thanks again for putting up with all of this and us on your thread.
if there is any therapy going on, this is what it looks like. not a pretty process.

Please let's give GreenBean some credit.
He did post links that included references to real people
who attribute some of their experiences to sexual abuse.

People Can Change - An alternative, healing response to unwanted homosexual desires.

[MENTION=22295]emilynghiem[/MENTION]First, no, I don't give greenbean any credit. He doesn't deserve any. He doesn't seem capable of posting an argument that isn't peppered with pathetic attempts to insult and childish name calling. Second I find the link to be dubious I will explain but first:I don't believe sexual orientation is something that can be changed. As for those claiming to have changed, they are either one of three things: 1) lying to themselves. 2) they are bisexual. 3) heterosexuals that were simply experimenting.

If a short person was dissatisfied with feeling short, dissatisfied with short life and for whom pursuing change (getting taller) feels to him to be a healing path, can these people at "People can Change" make him taller? If not, I really don't buy thatthey can alter anything else. It's fraud.

I don't believe sexual abuse is at all a contributing factor to homosexuality in any case any more than the phase of the moon at the time of birth.

I don't buy thatsexual abuse is the slightest factor in any case with regard to sexual orientation.

For what, finding a link to quacks that claim that you can Change" your sexual orientation? No, all one needs is to type that into Google.

I agree, but we aren't discussing addiction oranything at all related to addiction. I don't believe people are gay because they are addicted to being gay. That is like saying somebody is addicted to being attracted to the opposite sex because they prefer romantic partners of the opposite sex. I don't wish to discuss sexual addiction because it in no way relates to sexual orientation.

and the Center for Healing of Racism refers to racism as a disease passed down in the spirit. they do not refer to it as a mental disorder.
and they see all people as affected on different levels, so nobody is labeled anything.
they also focus on healing it in spirit first, then the mind, then relations in the world.
Again the links GB provided seem to follow a more "spiritual process" like these,
where each person's path is different and does not define anyone else but them.

Racism is an idea that is taught by adults to children. I don't believe sexual orientation is taught to people any more than a tall person was taught to be tall. I don't believe spiritual healing has any effect what so ever on sexual orientation, Amy more thanspiritual healing can make a short person taller.

I am sorry, I just don't believe that sexual orientation is a symptom of sexual abuse in any case. I find the idea rather demeaning and preposterous. Sexual addictions, sexual proclivities, and sexual obsessions are all unrelated to sexual orientation and therefore have nothing to do with this discussion. To say somebody could spiritually heal from say a sexual obsession would not really have any effect on their orientation.

[MENTION=22295]emilynghiem[/MENTION]
I don't think there is a such thing as a homosexual person who isn't naturally homosexual.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

I don't think anyone's homosexual. Or heterosexual, or anything else. I think we all simply have sex with agreeable persons when they're agreeable. When we find things we like having sex we seek that again. For "homosexual" people, they discovered they liked that early on and seek repeat experiences. For heterosexual same thing. But no gene is gonna short circuit our conscious minds and turn us into automotons forcing into a behaviour of any kind. Who we do things with be they sexual or otherwise is always the result of deliberate choice.

Until we see zoos and aquariums looking to buy heterosexual animals for breeding and get insurance against picking up homosexual ones I think sexuality thought of that way is inaccurate. Everyone's simply 'sexual.' None of us seeks sex that we don't enjoy, but let's face it, every man can do 2 of the 3 things women can in bed. So for some of us those two may well suffice. And others of us like that 3rd thing. And still others like it all and aren't overly interested in whether it's with men or women.

The 'sexual preference' is purely psychological. You're making yourself feel the attraction as in, if you closed your eyes or otherwise didn't know the sex, everyone's mouth and anus would feel identical. It's only when you know who you're with that your own preference and biases comes into play. How many assaults and murders have occured when 'heterosexual' men discovered the 'female' they were having sex with were in fact males? Until that discovery, everything was fine. Wasn't until the conscious mind realized who they were with that things took another shape.

 

[RKMBrown]

I don't think anyone's homosexual. Or heterosexual, or anything else. I think we all simply have sex with agreeable persons when they're agreeable. When we find things we like having sex we seek that again. For "homosexual" people, they discovered they liked that early on and seek repeat experiences. For heterosexual same thing. But no gene is gonna short circuit our conscious minds and turn us into automotons forcing into a behaviour of any kind. Who we do things with be they sexual or otherwise is always the result of deliberate choice.

Until we see zoos and aquariums looking to buy heterosexual animals for breeding and get insurance against picking up homosexual ones I think sexuality thought of that way is inaccurate. Everyone's simply 'sexual.' None of us seeks sex that we don't enjoy, but let's face it, every man can do 2 of the 3 things women can in bed. So for some of us those two may well suffice. And others of us like that 3rd thing. And still others like it all and aren't overly interested in whether it's with men or women.

The 'sexual preference' is purely psychological. You're making yourself feel the attraction as in, if you closed your eyes or otherwise didn't know the sex, everyone's mouth and anus would feel identical. It's only when you know who you're with that your own preference and biases comes into play. How many assaults and murders have occured when 'heterosexual' men discovered the 'female' they were having sex with were in fact males? Until that discovery, everything was fine. Wasn't until the conscious mind realized who they were with that things took another shape.

You are only partially correct. The physical body also reacts to stimuli irregardless of input from it's owner. For example, see autonomic nervous system. As another example see glands that excrete particular hormones in response to particular types of chemical stimuli.

Some decisions are made by the body for us. Some of which we can override.

 

[emilynghiem]

I don't think there is a such thing as a homosexual person who isn't naturally homosexual.

[MENTION=49586]Inevitable[/MENTION]
1. Yes, that's fine for me, I can see you are saying close enough to the same thing as others. The ones who changed, also say they are "naturally heterosexual." so that is why they are successful in healing because they are restoring their natural state, not changing into some orientation they are not. The ones who change are NOT homosexual and just "choosing not to act on it" or lying/suppressing what is natural for them, or "changing their orientation to heterosexual."

So I can see you and they agree on some level, even if the language for it varies.

2. When you speak with others who only argue this as "either/or, their way or your way":
Either all cases are natural and not a choice
or all cases are unnatural and a choice.

It sounds to me you DO believe in people dropping homosexual behavior "as a choice" but to you that means they weren't naturally born homosexual to begin with but heterosexual.

I think it would help to specify that kind of homosexual behavior you agree "is a choice" happens when the person is naturally born heterosexual even though they are acting otherwise.

At least you could find one area where you agree a choice is going on,
and then clarify what you mean. The other person can keep believing that
all cases are heterosexuals choosing behavior or relationships, but at least you are not excluding the cases where people did change their lives. You just explain it differently, but it seems to be consistent with the very people who changed who also say they were born to be heterosexual and that's how they were able to change.

Thanks Inevitable and good job with this thread!

 

[GISMYS]

Many people do not understand God , nor his holy Scriptures. Yes, to God sin is sin, and all manner of sin is all the same as it is Death.(James 1:15) But what we all must realize and respect is that God himself has spoken out concerning this type of sin(Homosexuality/gay) and has declared it as an Abomination! This means he hates all sin but this one is a sin that makes him very angry and displeased, to God it is detestable. God is the only one that can elevate the worstness of one sin over another.

Why does the bible say the words "natural and unnatural", if it doesnt mean anything to God. Dont fool yourselves, God has created all things by his divine will. He alone determines what is good and what is evil, also the same for what is natural and what is unnatural. These people that commit and live a unnatural lifestyle of this transgression need to be saved, so they can be free inside to live unto God the creator. They need salvation, they need to be delivered from these demons inside of them, thats leading them to their destruction, and are not in the body of Christ. They are the world that lies in wickedness, whose end is the Lake of Fire! The true church of Jesus Christ will NEVER accept nor agree with these demons or of any kind. Christ and satan are not one. You will either love God and obey his word or you will love satan and obey the inspirations of his devils! The bible says " Woe unto him that calleth good evil and evil good ". Woe is right and frightening. Salvation is the only solution, God has called all men everywhere to REPENT! AND TURN FROM HIS WICKED WAYS! Forsake all ungodliness and obey the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[emilynghiem]

I also believe we are meant to connect with certain soulmates in life,
and will be attracted or repelled by certain people.

The relationships are unique to those souls, like a unique line connecting two unique points,
so the labels come afterwards where the generalizations are getting made based on those external labels.

Some spiritual attractions involve family and romantic relations, so that is where the sexual attractions come in.
(Some labels ARE important to identify karmic patterns in process of being resolved, like race relations between cultures
or religious issues between groups, so this is ALSO part of the spiritual process affecting certain souls.)

What I notice with all people is any patterns or issues we carry from our parents,
if we do not resolve conflicts there, we can repeat or project them onto other relations, particular romantic relations. This spiritual process ensures we resolve them since they affect our closest relationships. Whatever we don't resolve there can be projected collectively onto religious and political conflicts with "church state" authorities.

These projections are like collective reflections of "mommy issues" and "daddy issues" on a public scale. So we either clean up our laundry in private, in our own personal lives or relationships, or if we don't, our dirty laundry gets hung out in public until everyone agrees to clean up their own piles. (And when we don't agree whose pile is whose to clean up first, we all jump on the internet and use that for group therapy and networking to get help to sort out the laundry before it stinks up the place.)

I don't think anyone's homosexual. Or heterosexual, or anything else. I think we all simply have sex with agreeable persons when they're agreeable. When we find things we like having sex we seek that again. For "homosexual" people, they discovered they liked that early on and seek repeat experiences. For heterosexual same thing. But no gene is gonna short circuit our conscious minds and turn us into automotons forcing into a behaviour of any kind. Who we do things with be they sexual or otherwise is always the result of deliberate choice.

Until we see zoos and aquariums looking to buy heterosexual animals for breeding and get insurance against picking up homosexual ones I think sexuality thought of that way is inaccurate. Everyone's simply 'sexual.' None of us seeks sex that we don't enjoy, but let's face it, every man can do 2 of the 3 things women can in bed. So for some of us those two may well suffice. And others of us like that 3rd thing. And still others like it all and aren't overly interested in whether it's with men or women.

The 'sexual preference' is purely psychological. You're making yourself feel the attraction as in, if you closed your eyes or otherwise didn't know the sex, everyone's mouth and anus would feel identical. It's only when you know who you're with that your own preference and biases comes into play. How many assaults and murders have occured when 'heterosexual' men discovered the 'female' they were having sex with were in fact males? Until that discovery, everything was fine. Wasn't until the conscious mind realized who they were with that things took another shape.

 

[emilynghiem]

Many people do not understand God , nor his holy Scriptures. Yes, to God sin is sin, and all manner of sin is all the same as it is Death.(James 1:15) But what we all must realize and respect is that God himself has spoken out concerning this type of sin(Homosexuality/gay) and has declared it as an Abomination! This means he hates all sin but this one is a sin that makes him very angry and displeased, to God it is detestable. God is the only one that can elevate the worstness of one sin over another.

Why does the bible say the words "natural and unnatural", if it doesnt mean anything to God. Dont fool yourselves, God has created all things by his divine will. He alone determines what is good and what is evil, also the same for what is natural and what is unnatural. These people that commit and live a unnatural lifestyle of this transgression need to be saved, so they can be free inside to live unto God the creator. They need salvation, they need to be delivered from these demons inside of them, thats leading them to their destruction, and are not in the body of Christ. They are the world that lies in wickedness, whose end is the Lake of Fire! The true church of Jesus Christ will NEVER accept nor agree with these demons or of any kind. Christ and satan are not one. You will either love God and obey his word or you will love satan and obey the inspirations of his devils! The bible says " Woe unto him that calleth good evil and evil good ". Woe is right and frightening. Salvation is the only solution, God has called all men everywhere to REPENT! AND TURN FROM HIS WICKED WAYS! Forsake all ungodliness and obey the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Yes, as we cast out demonic spirit of fear, then more of God's love and truth
can be heard and received.

Thank you [MENTION=42952]GISMYS[/MENTION] I can hear you much better now. I can hear more of your natural voice and the love of God when you do not yell unnaturally. Amen and keep praying that all demons of doubt and fear, unbelief and division, are removed from this thread so we can all hear what each other is saying in our natural voices and love of God's truth. Thanks

 

[Misty]

I think homosexuality is sometimes born in people and sometimes people choose it.

One thing I do think is a stereotype is that gays are funny.

They are hilarious. Great sense of humor. They truly are gay.

 

[Mathbud1]

There are more options than "It is a choice" and "They are born that way." A lot of people seem to think those are the only two options. Just because you are not "born that way" does not mean that you consciously chose to be that way. You are the product of a LOT of external and internal influences. The complexity of those influences makes it virtually impossible to predict how an individual will develop. One single experience in our lives can change our lives completely. That's why I lean towards environmental being the largest deciding factor in our behavior.

 

[RKMBrown]

There are more options than "It is a choice" and "They are born that way." A lot of people seem to think those are the only two options. Just because you are not "born that way" does not mean that you consciously chose to be that way. You are the product of a LOT of external and internal influences. The complexity of those influences makes it virtually impossible to predict how an individual will develop. One single experience in our lives can change our lives completely. That's why I lean towards environmental being the largest deciding factor in our behavior.

Given that humans do not have the ability to reproduce a-sexually, I would argue genetics through natural selection as the largest factor in our sexual behavior.

 

[Mathbud1]

There are more options than "It is a choice" and "They are born that way." A lot of people seem to think those are the only two options. Just because you are not "born that way" does not mean that you consciously chose to be that way. You are the product of a LOT of external and internal influences. The complexity of those influences makes it virtually impossible to predict how an individual will develop. One single experience in our lives can change our lives completely. That's why I lean towards environmental being the largest deciding factor in our behavior.

Given that humans do not have the ability to reproduce a-sexually, I would argue genetics through natural selection as the largest factor in our sexual behavior.

Please explain how you think genetics would affect behavior.

 

[brandonisi]

The APA lists no known causes for homosexual, thoughthere are some hypotheses. What do you think and why?

Well, I can tell you from first hand experience that whatever "causes" it is something that can't be prevented. I'm gay. I never made the choice to "be gay". I just never had an attraction to women.

 

[GISMYS]

The APA lists no known causes for homosexual, thoughthere are some hypotheses. What do you think and why?

Well, I can tell you from first hand experience that whatever "causes" it is something that can't be prevented. I'm gay. I never made the choice to "be gay". I just never had an attraction to women.

THE CHOICE IS WILL YOU DO ACTS OF SEXUAL PERVERSION OR NOT =THAT IS THE CHOICE!!and you??

 

[RKMBrown]

There are more options than "It is a choice" and "They are born that way." A lot of people seem to think those are the only two options. Just because you are not "born that way" does not mean that you consciously chose to be that way. You are the product of a LOT of external and internal influences. The complexity of those influences makes it virtually impossible to predict how an individual will develop. One single experience in our lives can change our lives completely. That's why I lean towards environmental being the largest deciding factor in our behavior.

Given that humans do not have the ability to reproduce a-sexually, I would argue genetics through natural selection as the largest factor in our sexual behavior.

Please explain how you think genetics would affect behavior.

For example, pheromone induced behavior.

Human Physiology/The endocrine system - Wikibooks, open books for an open world

There are genetically encoded reasons, or biases if you will, that most men are sexually attracted to women and vice verse. Additionally, when a man and a woman sleep together there are chemicals exchanged that aid in said attraction so they will stay together.