Is homosexuality a choice, a mental illness or something simply inherent?

[RKMBrown]

That definitely shows that our bodies release hormones in response to stimuli (environment) that can affect our behavior. It doesn't show that our genes are pre-programmed with the instructions to make us heterosexual or homosexual.

It makes sense for female pheremones to prompt male attraction for breeding purposes. If there are/were male pheremones that prompt male attraction, what purpose could they serve genetically speaking?

I'm not a biologist, but there doesn't SEEM to be anything from a bilogical standpoint that could possibly explain a natural reason for anyone to be "genetically programmed" for homosexuality. From a natural selection point of view it would end any hereditary line that carried the gene because homosexuality is not "breedable."

It seems FAR more likely that post-birth external stimuli influence us to certain behaviors.

It does show that our genes are pre-programmed with the instructions to make us sexual. I have noted in quite a few males who are gay decidedly female speech, appearance, and behavior patterns. Learned through culture? Do females act as they do solely on culture? I think it's some combination.

To the question of are there any male pheromones that prompt male attraction, and if so what purpose could they serve genetically speaking?

Think Roman legions, think groups / packs of hunter's. Attraction does not have to be for sex alone. For example, it has been shown that even hetero males will have bias to vote for the better more viral looking male candidate.

Additionally, both males and females can easily achieve orgasm outside of coitus.

The psuedo-feminine behavior seems mostly an affectation to me, and not one that makes much sense. Logically speaking, why would a man who is attracted to men be attracted to a man who tries to act as much like a woman as he can?

Culture is not the only thing that influences feminine behavior. Culture is far from the only external influence on us. Something as simple as a bad smell or taste at a certain moment can taint our perceptions of that moment forever. Were we sad or happy in moment? Were we tired or alert? Were we distracted by other things or focused wholly on the moment? Our interactions with the world around us are hugely complex, and (it seems to me) have to have as complex an influence on our behavior.

Sexual attraction is, by definition, for sex. The only logical seeming argument for a genetic influence on sexual attraction would be finding the best mate for breeding (not something that can be satisfied by homosexuality.) For non-sexual attractions, such as you described, the argument might be survival. Teaming up with other physically fit and strong males should increase your chances of surviving in a dangerous world.

I'm not sure what the relevance is of your comment about orgasm outside of coitus. You'll have to explain. (If you want to.)

Yeah my point was that when groups of men or groups of women are in close proximity for extended periods of time... and more particularly when there is a decided lack of sexual contact of the opposite sex for extended periods of time, then non-sexual attractions may lead to dalliances, then the non-coitus orgasm can lead to addiction to the act. Not unlike addiction to cocaine.

One gay guy I know, a brother in law, started out dating girls, he was a bit odd if you will, and still is when it comes to social interactions. The girls picked on him for it. The gay guys found it attractive, and he reciprocated. He's had the same guy friend for a couple decades now.

I suspect, that if he had more successful interactions when dating girls he might have continued that way. But it was clear to me from the start and more so afterwards that there was something female about him from the start, even when he was dating girls.

 

[midcan5]

And the beat goes on.... Too funny that this issue isn't settled. But anyone who thinks sexuality is a choice can find out for themselves. Simply switch hit, try it, from today for a few days find attraction in the other gender. Boy, his/her ass is nice, jeez, I'd love to hug her/him and a kiss would be oh so wonderful. No need to jump right in physically, the mind is all you need. Good luck and let us all know how it goes. And please try hard even in your dreams of conquest. My post below is from 2007 - too funny.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/health-and-lifestyle/50615-know-what-really-causes-homosexuality.html

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...arding-islam-and-one-flesh-2.html#post8319649

http://www.usmessageboard.com/clean...something-simply-inherent-29.html#post9326144

Why are you afraid of freedom? Does the ability to chose scare you?

You once again miss the point, choice is freedom, so choose. Try it you may like it. Your freedom is granted to be all that you want to be.

Mathbud1, I think there are circumstances in which one can have sexual experiences but fundamentally we are one or the other along some continuum. My brother is gay and from an early age it was evident. Of course I can only look back and wonder why my girlie mags had little interest to him. Now I see it more clearly. My wife has taught for many years and says you can tell the boys very young, girls are much harder. Society though pushes us - at least when I grew up - to marriage and recently a close friend came out after many many years of marriage. For those who live in the world of people you can tell today and you accept today.

Take the test only a mind is required.

 

[Mathbud1]

And the beat goes on.... Too funny that this issue isn't settled. But anyone who thinks sexuality is a choice can find out for themselves. Simply switch hit, try it, from today for a few days find attraction in the other gender. Boy, his/her ass is nice, jeez, I'd love to hug her/him and a kiss would be oh so wonderful. No need to jump right in physically, the mind is all you need. Good luck and let us all know how it goes. And please try hard even in your dreams of conquest. My post below is from 2007 - too funny.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/health-and-lifestyle/50615-know-what-really-causes-homosexuality.html

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...arding-islam-and-one-flesh-2.html#post8319649

http://www.usmessageboard.com/clean...something-simply-inherent-29.html#post9326144

Why are you afraid of freedom? Does the ability to chose scare you?

You once again miss the point, choice is freedom, so choose. Try it you may like it. Your freedom is granted to be all that you want to be.

Mathbud1, I think there are circumstances in which one can have sexual experiences but fundamentally we are one or the other along some continuum. My brother is gay and from an early age it was evident. Of course I can only look back and wonder why my girlie mags had little interest to him. Now I see it more clearly. My wife has taught for many years and says you can tell the boys very young, girls are much harder. Society though pushes us - at least when I grew up - to marriage and recently a close friend came out after many many years of marriage. For those who live in the world of people you can tell today and you accept today.

Take the test only a mind is required.

Fundamentally how? What mechanism drives that fundamental state? Genetics? A soul? Experiences? Choice?

 

[Mathbud1]

Yeah my point was that when groups of men or groups of women are in close proximity for extended periods of time... and more particularly when there is a decided lack of sexual contact of the opposite sex for extended periods of time, then non-sexual attractions may lead to dalliances, then the non-coitus orgasm can lead to addiction to the act. Not unlike addiction to cocaine.

That's a perfect example of choice and experience altering behavior and attraction.

One gay guy I know, a brother in law, started out dating girls, he was a bit odd if you will, and still is when it comes to social interactions. The girls picked on him for it. The gay guys found it attractive, and he reciprocated. He's had the same guy friend for a couple decades now.

I suspect, that if he had more successful interactions when dating girls he might have continued that way. But it was clear to me from the start and more so afterwards that there was something female about him from the start, even when he was dating girls.

People say, "from the start" and I'm never really sure what they mean. As far as I know, at extremely young ages there is no major difference in male and female behavior. By the time it's possible to differentiate between typical male behavior and typical female behavior, our environment will have been influencing us for possibly years. So observations "from the start" don't seem likely to tell us much about genetic programming/influencing of sexual behavior.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

And the beat goes on.... Too funny that this issue isn't settled. But anyone who thinks sexuality is a choice can find out for themselves. Simply switch hit, try it, from today for a few days find attraction in the other gender. Boy, his/her ass is nice, jeez, I'd love to hug her/him and a kiss would be oh so wonderful. No need to jump right in physically, the mind is all you need. Good luck and let us all know how it goes. And please try hard even in your dreams of conquest. My post below is from 2007 - too funny.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/health-and-lifestyle/50615-know-what-really-causes-homosexuality.html

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...arding-islam-and-one-flesh-2.html#post8319649

http://www.usmessageboard.com/clean...something-simply-inherent-29.html#post9326144

Why are you afraid of freedom? Does the ability to chose scare you?

You once again miss the point, choice is freedom, so choose. Try it you may like it. Your freedom is granted to be all that you want to be.

Mathbud1, I think there are circumstances in which one can have sexual experiences but fundamentally we are one or the other along some continuum. My brother is gay and from an early age it was evident. Of course I can only look back and wonder why my girlie mags had little interest to him. Now I see it more clearly. My wife has taught for many years and says you can tell the boys very young, girls are much harder. Society though pushes us - at least when I grew up - to marriage and recently a close friend came out after many many years of marriage. For those who live in the world of people you can tell today and you accept today.

Take the test only a mind is required.

i did, idiot, which is why I know you are wrong when you tell me it isn't a choice, so tell me why you are afraid of freedom, and why you think Mathbud doesn't deserve his own response from you.

 

[AntiParty]

[MENTION=47936]AntiParty[/MENTION]
I agree with you if you mean only a gay person can answer for themselves, but
1. Even a gay person cannot speak for all other gay people.
Each person can speak for themselves, let others do the same,
and learn to deal with the fact that some answers are not going to match, even after reconciling, we can still disagree and not believe the same things.
2. If I cite what gay people said for themselves, I don't have to be gay to believe them and repeat them. As long as I don't project that as truth for "all people" (which is wrong even if a gay person makes a false generalization as well).
3. It's the projection and generalization that causes errors and conflicts.
You don't have to be gay to express the truth.
And gay people can make errors also with generalizations.

Only a gay person can answer this question..............

I think the people trying to answer this without being gay are a hoot!

"Oh, It's certainly a choice because........." or "It's not a choice something ...."


Are you gay? Why are you answer questions for them? Why are you the professional of gay behavior? Ask a gay if it's a choice. Stop answering for them..

Unless of course you thought you were gay and you went through the religion anti-gay training camp that trains people who thought they were gay to be not gay..........etc...

You do realize that most Preists that raped young boys only did it because they were told they didn't have to "release the load". Puberty and not releasing your load makes your balls turn into your brains.

Just rub one out! Only specific versions of the Bible said don't jack off. It's not perverted, it's necessary. There should be a pressure valve.

Priests who raped nuns in Africa because they didn't want AIDS from natives
aren't going to be helped by just rubbing one out. they need deeper therapy for their sickness on a spiritual level not just placating symptoms.

Perhaps you should try no sex and no masturbation for a spell. Puberty was the period of your life, as a NEW adult, with no sex and no masturbation........

How did puberty go for you? (I'm assuming you are an adult and didn't have sex education to guide emotions and other things)

 

[Inevitable]

Why are you afraid of freedom? Does the ability to chose scare you?

You once again miss the point, choice is freedom, so choose. Try it you may like it. Your freedom is granted to be all that you want to be.

Mathbud1, I think there are circumstances in which one can have sexual experiences but fundamentally we are one or the other along some continuum. My brother is gay and from an early age it was evident. Of course I can only look back and wonder why my girlie mags had little interest to him. Now I see it more clearly. My wife has taught for many years and says you can tell the boys very young, girls are much harder. Society though pushes us - at least when I grew up - to marriage and recently a close friend came out after many many years of marriage. For those who live in the world of people you can tell today and you accept today.

Take the test only a mind is required.

i did, idiot,

Now now, there is no need to get your panties in a bunch ma'am, take a midol count to five and breath.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You once again miss the point, choice is freedom, so choose. Try it you may like it. Your freedom is granted to be all that you want to be.

Mathbud1, I think there are circumstances in which one can have sexual experiences but fundamentally we are one or the other along some continuum. My brother is gay and from an early age it was evident. Of course I can only look back and wonder why my girlie mags had little interest to him. Now I see it more clearly. My wife has taught for many years and says you can tell the boys very young, girls are much harder. Society though pushes us - at least when I grew up - to marriage and recently a close friend came out after many many years of marriage. For those who live in the world of people you can tell today and you accept today.

Take the test only a mind is required.

i did, idiot,

Now now, there is no need to get your panties in a bunch ma'am, take a midol count to five and breath.

Using sex as an insult, why is that? is it because you have aren't comfortable with your own sexuality, or is it because you believe that sex is dirty? Have you noticed that I am unimpressed with tactics like that?

 

[Slyhunter]

i did, idiot,

Now now, there is no need to get your panties in a bunch ma'am, take a midol count to five and breath.

Using sex as an insult, why is that? is it because you have aren't comfortable with your own sexuality, or is it because you believe that sex is dirty? Have you noticed that I am unimpressed with tactics like that?

Sounds to me like you only made it to 2.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Now now, there is no need to get your panties in a bunch ma'am, take a midol count to five and breath.

Using sex as an insult, why is that? is it because you have aren't comfortable with your own sexuality, or is it because you believe that sex is dirty? Have you noticed that I am unimpressed with tactics like that?

Sounds to me like you only made it to 2.

Why does it sound that way to you? I am not the one using sex as an insult, the poster I quoted is. Are you just confused because you disagree with me, and cannot reconcile the fact that I have never once used sexuality as an insult in my entire life?

 

[Slyhunter]

Using sex as an insult, why is that? is it because you have aren't comfortable with your own sexuality, or is it because you believe that sex is dirty? Have you noticed that I am unimpressed with tactics like that?

Sounds to me like you only made it to 2.

Why does it sound that way to you? I am not the one using sex as an insult, the poster I quoted is. Are you just confused because you disagree with me, and cannot reconcile the fact that I have never once used sexuality as an insult in my entire life?

3 comes after 2.

 

[Inevitable]

i did, idiot,

Now now, there is no need to get your panties in a bunch ma'am, take a midol count to five and breath.

Using sex as an insult, why is that? is it because you have aren't comfortable with your own sexuality, or is it because you believe that sex is dirty? Have you noticed that I am unimpressed with tactics like that?

Calling people idiot, seems you aren't interested in tactics our debate at all. Likely because you fail at logic.

 

[Inevitable]

Using sex as an insult, why is that? is it because you have aren't comfortable with your own sexuality, or is it because you believe that sex is dirty? Have you noticed that I am unimpressed with tactics like that?

Sounds to me like you only made it to 2.

Why does it sound that way to you? I am not the one using sex as an insult, the poster I quoted is. Are you just confused because you disagree with me, and cannot reconcile the fact that I have never once used sexuality as an insult in my entire life?

You use insults every chance you get. I have seen you do it at least a dozen times. I actually didn't use sexuality as an insult I simply implied that a poster was acting like an irrational, emotional person.

You choose to be offended, thus giving me control over the ability to offend you.

 

[RKMBrown]

Yeah my point was that when groups of men or groups of women are in close proximity for extended periods of time... and more particularly when there is a decided lack of sexual contact of the opposite sex for extended periods of time, then non-sexual attractions may lead to dalliances, then the non-coitus orgasm can lead to addiction to the act. Not unlike addiction to cocaine.

That's a perfect example of choice and experience altering behavior and attraction.

One gay guy I know, a brother in law, started out dating girls, he was a bit odd if you will, and still is when it comes to social interactions. The girls picked on him for it. The gay guys found it attractive, and he reciprocated. He's had the same guy friend for a couple decades now.

I suspect, that if he had more successful interactions when dating girls he might have continued that way. But it was clear to me from the start and more so afterwards that there was something female about him from the start, even when he was dating girls.

People say, "from the start" and I'm never really sure what they mean. As far as I know, at extremely young ages there is no major difference in male and female behavior. By the time it's possible to differentiate between typical male behavior and typical female behavior, our environment will have been influencing us for possibly years. So observations "from the start" don't seem likely to tell us much about genetic programming/influencing of sexual behavior.

The phrase "from the start," in this case refers to first introductions. He was about 15, in puberty but not exhibiting male behavior patterns. His younger brother was 6, and was exhibiting male behavior patterns.

I've had boys and a girl. From birth the differences between boys and girls is significant. Everything from mannerisms to the types of toys they choose, to how they play with the toys is completely different.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Any differences you notice in your kids gender stereotypes is coming from you. Raise boys with blue, girls with pink and you're from that moment giving them a gender stereotype to conform to. Chances are, you'rer giving they many others as well, thus what you now observe isn't their true natures so much as the natures you imposed onto them.

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear [MENTION=43831]RKMBrown[/MENTION]: For my friend I met online who identified as female, he/she reported being born with that female personality or "soul" -- predominantly female and responded to me when I addressed her as so. That was who that person naturally was.

If a person's persona is female, I understand that the "female brain" is identifiably distinct from the male brain, and in transgender studies the physical males did show key characteristics of having a larger hypothalamus of female brains (and also greater ability of gay men to cross over both sides of the brain, but still not at the level of women).

So what makes a certain "soul or personality" incarnate or develop physically in a body?

Does it start on a "spiritual level," then manifest in genetics and brain development, and then in how people interact physically in relations with others in the social environment?

When I frame it by spiritual determination first, then the genetic and physical factors after that, this seems to explain more of the situations, including whether or not people experienced change, and also what social factors and relations with people are involved. Even if we can't tell how much is genetic or environmental, isn't the common factor in whether or not people change, determined by their spiritual identity to begin with?

It does show that our genes are pre-programmed with the instructions to make us sexual. I have noted in quite a few males who are gay decidedly female speech, appearance, and behavior patterns. Learned through culture? Do females act as they do solely on culture? I think it's some combination.

To the question of are there any male pheromones that prompt male attraction, and if so what purpose could they serve genetically speaking?

Think Roman legions, think groups / packs of hunter's. Attraction does not have to be for sex alone. For example, it has been shown that even hetero males will have bias to vote for the better more viral looking male candidate.

Additionally, both males and females can easily achieve orgasm outside of coitus.

 

[GISMYS]

Dear [MENTION=43831]RKMBrown[/MENTION]: For my friend I met online who identified as female, he/she reported being born with that female personality or "soul" -- predominantly female and responded to me when I addressed her as so. That was who that person naturally was.

If a person's persona is female, I understand that the "female brain" is identifiably distinct from the male brain, and in transgender studies the physical males did show key characteristics of having a larger hypothalamus of female brains (and also greater ability of gay men to cross over both sides of the brain, but still not at the level of women).

So what makes a certain "soul or personality" incarnate or develop physically in a body?

Does it start on a "spiritual level," then manifest in genetics and brain development, and then in how people interact physically in relations with others in the social environment?

When I frame it by spiritual determination first, then the genetic and physical factors after that, this seems to explain more of the situations, including whether or not people experienced change, and also what social factors and relations with people are involved. Even if we can't tell how much is genetic or environmental, isn't the common factor in whether or not people change, determined by their spiritual identity to begin with?

It does show that our genes are pre-programmed with the instructions to make us sexual. I have noted in quite a few males who are gay decidedly female speech, appearance, and behavior patterns. Learned through culture? Do females act as they do solely on culture? I think it's some combination.

To the question of are there any male pheromones that prompt male attraction, and if so what purpose could they serve genetically speaking?

Think Roman legions, think groups / packs of hunter's. Attraction does not have to be for sex alone. For example, it has been shown that even hetero males will have bias to vote for the better more viral looking male candidate.

Additionally, both males and females can easily achieve orgasm outside of coitus.

IT IS THE ABOMINATION ""ACTS"" OF SEXUAL PERVERSION THAT GOD'S WORD CONDEMNS. Try to think! CONDEMNS

 

[emilynghiem]

Now now, there is no need to get your panties in a bunch ma'am, take a midol count to five and breath.

Using sex as an insult, why is that? is it because you have aren't comfortable with your own sexuality, or is it because you believe that sex is dirty? Have you noticed that I am unimpressed with tactics like that?

Calling people idiot, seems you aren't interested in tactics our debate at all. Likely because you fail at logic.

Hi [MENTION=49586]Inevitable[/MENTION],
from [MENTION=23420]Quantum Windbag[/MENTION]'s other posts and conversations I find QW is more than capable of carrying on intelligent debates in depth and detail without resorting to any side jabs at people personally. And so are you.

I know the personal jabs happen online as "part of the social and environmental influences."

I believe your "natural default selves" are normally "oriented" toward
making rational and articulate points,
whereas this "externalized behavior" going on "can be changed."

As you said, "it is a choice" to focus on that to take exception or offense,
which goes for both of you:
Had I not seen both of you communicate quite effectively, demonstrating astute levels of perception and discernment, far above petty levels of personal cracks, I would not ask you both to knock it off and please focus on content. Thank you, Gentlemen. Do carry on!

 

[emilynghiem]

IT IS THE ABOMINATION ""ACTS"" OF SEXUAL PERVERSION THAT GOD'S WORD. Try to think! CONDEMNS

[MENTION=42952]GISMYS[/MENTION]
And of all the people who have successfully recovered and healed of past perverse behavior, NOT ONE got there by being preached at in this way. They already knew they had a problem, so more preaching about it did not change that. (What they didn't know is that their problems could be healed, so that was the help they needed, not preaching about the problems but offering the solutions.)

GISMYS who are you addressing?
Which particular person or issue/action are you trying to correct?

If you are trying to address Gentiles, would you agree with the focus on proving how spiritual healing and recovery works using Science and Medicine, demonstrating laws of science and nature back up what people claim about being healed of disease and mental addictions, INCLUDING the "sexual perversions" you are so concerned about.

Which is more effective, preaching where people argue back and "don't listen"?
Or focusing on scientific proof of the spiritual process so people can understand it is true?

GISMYS since you know how close we are to the truth being revealed for all the world,
doesn't it make sense that science will be used more and more to prove these things are real and natural? Wouldn't that bring the knowledge out for the public to see in plain sight?

If you can see that, as part of the vision of truth established, I totally support that approach. If every eye is going to see, it makes sense to use science to show all people.

 

[GISMYS]

THE FIRST STEP WE SINNERS NEED TO WHEN SEEKING FORGIVNESS IS TO CONFESS OUR SIN IS SIN AND REPENT. BUT SEXUAL PERVERTS TRY TO SAY THEIR SIN IS NOT SIN THUS THEY COMPOUND THEIR SIN BY DENYING THE TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD. GPD loves the sinner but GOD hates their sin. and you??