Is it moral for God to punish us?

[hadit]

Try ruminating. According to scripture, God is incorporeal and has no visible shape or material form. If this is true then there never was and never will be a human being that was God or became God either before during or after their human existence.

Jesus said that he was taught by God and sent by God and that God was the source of his being.

Any being whose existence is caused by God cannot be God.

"But go and tell my brothers that I am ascending to my Father and your Father, my God and your God." John 20:17

By saying that his God is our God Jesus effectively eliminated any possibility that he thought of himself as God or claimed to be God.

His enemies tried to discredit Jesus by saying that he claimed to be God because even in the first century anyone who claimed to be God would be insane.

"According to scripture", which also has not been proven to be anything else than malarkey. No proof there.

So why would you think there was even a slight possibility that Jesus was God? Your search for proof is fruitless?

How is it illogical to reject that claim?

I'm very familiar with the bible and I don't find it to be proof of anything. It suggests that jesus is god. Okay. Could be. But the bible isn't proof.

It doesn't suggest, it comes right out and says it.

It's still not proof of anything.

Depends on what you're trying to prove.

 

[hobelim]

"According to scripture", which also has not been proven to be anything else than malarkey. No proof there.

So why would you think there was even a slight possibility that Jesus was God? Your search for proof is fruitless?

How is it illogical to reject that claim?

I'm very familiar with the bible and I don't find it to be proof of anything. It suggests that jesus is god. Okay. Could be. But the bible isn't proof.

It doesn't suggest, it comes right out and says it.

It's still not proof of anything.

Depends on what you're trying to prove.

If you are trying to prove that Jesus claimed to be God you might as well be trying to prove that Jesus was insane.

you will not find anything written to prove that Jesus ever claimed to be God that could not be interpreted in a more intelligent and rational way.

 

[Mudda]

"According to scripture", which also has not been proven to be anything else than malarkey. No proof there.

So why would you think there was even a slight possibility that Jesus was God? Your search for proof is fruitless?

How is it illogical to reject that claim?

I'm very familiar with the bible and I don't find it to be proof of anything. It suggests that jesus is god. Okay. Could be. But the bible isn't proof.

It doesn't suggest, it comes right out and says it.

It's still not proof of anything.

Depends on what you're trying to prove.

Try proving ANYTHING with the bible.

 

[hadit]

So why would you think there was even a slight possibility that Jesus was God? Your search for proof is fruitless?

How is it illogical to reject that claim?

I'm very familiar with the bible and I don't find it to be proof of anything. It suggests that jesus is god. Okay. Could be. But the bible isn't proof.

It doesn't suggest, it comes right out and says it.

It's still not proof of anything.

Depends on what you're trying to prove.

If you are trying to prove that Jesus claimed to be God you might as well be trying to prove that Jesus was insane.

you will not find anything written to prove that Jesus ever claimed to be God that could not be interpreted in a more intelligent and rational way.

Rationalize John 8:58,

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “beforeAbraham was born, I am!”

keeping in mind Exodus 3:14.

God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”

 

[mudwhistle]

Is it moral for God to punish us?

Is it moral for an all-knowing and all-powerful God to set in motion a history that he designs and then condemns others for?

We live in a history that God has set up and is fully responsible for. God, punishing man, who can do nothing but follow God’s plan and the nature God has put in us, is having innocent people suffer for the wrongs God himself has pre-destined and which cannot be altered.

For example.

God chose to have Jesus sacrificed. God, in his planning book would also have decided who would kill Jesus. There would be no way for that man to not kill Jesus or God’s plan would fall off the rails and in this case, we would not have a messiah or scapegoat to ride into heaven.

Some will say we have free will but as shown in the example above, Jesus’ killer could not refrain from killing Jesus without derailing God’s plan. Further, to pre-destine any one action or condition within a history changes all other conditions and pre-destines all conditions within the plan. Think the butterfly effect.

Having said the above and having shown that we have no free will if anything is pre-destined, I think it would be quite immoral for God to judge or punish us for being and doing exactly what he pre-ordained for us in his plan. We have no choice and to punish us is immoral.

Do you agree?

If not, why not?

Regards
DL

God doesn't punish us.

He tells us what to avoid.

If God tells you not to step in dogshit....and you do it anyway...why do you feel he's punishing you?

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Jesus Christ is God. The last book of the bible - titled - The Revelation of Jesus Christ - reveals Jesus Christ as God. People should read the bible.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Is it moral for God to punish us?

Is it moral for an all-knowing and all-powerful God to set in motion a history that he designs and then condemns others for?

We live in a history that God has set up and is fully responsible for. God, punishing man, who can do nothing but follow God’s plan and the nature God has put in us, is having innocent people suffer for the wrongs God himself has pre-destined and which cannot be altered.

For example.

God chose to have Jesus sacrificed. God, in his planning book would also have decided who would kill Jesus. There would be no way for that man to not kill Jesus or God’s plan would fall off the rails and in this case, we would not have a messiah or scapegoat to ride into heaven.

Some will say we have free will but as shown in the example above, Jesus’ killer could not refrain from killing Jesus without derailing God’s plan. Further, to pre-destine any one action or condition within a history changes all other conditions and pre-destines all conditions within the plan. Think the butterfly effect.

Having said the above and having shown that we have no free will if anything is pre-destined, I think it would be quite immoral for God to judge or punish us for being and doing exactly what he pre-ordained for us in his plan. We have no choice and to punish us is immoral.

Do you agree?

If not, why not?

Regards
DL

Is it moral for Satan to claim he is a god and that he has the power to make God's creation - man - into gods? Is it moral for Satan to pretend that Jesus Christ didn't defeat him at the cross 2,000 years ago and to hide the fact that everyone following him is going to suffer for all eternity in hell just as he is? Is it moral for you to think you have the right to question what God Almighty does with His own creation?

 

[hobelim]

I'm very familiar with the bible and I don't find it to be proof of anything. It suggests that jesus is god. Okay. Could be. But the bible isn't proof.

It doesn't suggest, it comes right out and says it.

It's still not proof of anything.

Depends on what you're trying to prove.

If you are trying to prove that Jesus claimed to be God you might as well be trying to prove that Jesus was insane.

you will not find anything written to prove that Jesus ever claimed to be God that could not be interpreted in a more intelligent and rational way.

Rationalize John 8:58,

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “beforeAbraham was born, I am!”

keeping in mind Exodus 3:14.

God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”

You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham! “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Context is important. By finding it ridiculous that Jesus had seen Abraham before he was fifty years old the pharisees implied that if Jesus was fifty years old he could have seen Abraham which shows that seeing Abraham was about understanding Abraham and knowing intimate things between Abraham and God..

The answer Jesus gave , before Abraham was born I am, is not a claim of being God. he was saying that even though he was so young he understood Abraham because God, I am, has existed since even before Abraham was born and was with him as corresponds to his claim being the awaited Messiah and Deuteronomy 18:18 which shows that the messiah would speak for God about things that only God could know.

 

[Mudda]

It doesn't suggest, it comes right out and says it.

It's still not proof of anything.

Depends on what you're trying to prove.

If you are trying to prove that Jesus claimed to be God you might as well be trying to prove that Jesus was insane.

you will not find anything written to prove that Jesus ever claimed to be God that could not be interpreted in a more intelligent and rational way.

Rationalize John 8:58,

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “beforeAbraham was born, I am!”

keeping in mind Exodus 3:14.

God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”

You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham! “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Context is important. By finding it ridiculous that Jesus had seen Abraham before he was fifty years old the pharisees implied that if Jesus was fifty years old he could have seen Abraham which shows that seeing Abraham was about understanding Abraham and knowing intimate things between Abraham and God..

The answer Jesus gave , before Abraham was born I am, is not a claim of being God. he was saying that even though he was so young he understood Abraham because God, I am, has existed since even before Abraham was born and was with him as corresponds to his claim being the awaited Messiah and Deuteronomy 18:18 which shows that the messiah would speak for God about things that only God could know.

Wow! There should be a prize for the Most Convoluted Explanation of the Bible I've ever heard at this board! And THAT'S saying something! Bravo!!!

 

[hobelim]

It's still not proof of anything.

Depends on what you're trying to prove.

If you are trying to prove that Jesus claimed to be God you might as well be trying to prove that Jesus was insane.

you will not find anything written to prove that Jesus ever claimed to be God that could not be interpreted in a more intelligent and rational way.

Rationalize John 8:58,

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “beforeAbraham was born, I am!”

keeping in mind Exodus 3:14.

God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”

You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham! “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Context is important. By finding it ridiculous that Jesus had seen Abraham before he was fifty years old the pharisees implied that if Jesus was fifty years old he could have seen Abraham which shows that seeing Abraham was about understanding Abraham and knowing intimate things between Abraham and God..

The answer Jesus gave , before Abraham was born I am, is not a claim of being God. he was saying that even though he was so young he understood Abraham because God, I am, has existed since even before Abraham was born and was with him as corresponds to his claim being the awaited Messiah and Deuteronomy 18:18 which shows that the messiah would speak for God about things that only God could know.

Wow! There should be a prize for the Most Convoluted Explanation of the Bible I've ever heard at this board! And THAT'S saying something! Bravo!!!

All the pieces fit perfectly.

Thanka you very much. I'll take a bow.

 

[hadit]

It doesn't suggest, it comes right out and says it.

It's still not proof of anything.

Depends on what you're trying to prove.

If you are trying to prove that Jesus claimed to be God you might as well be trying to prove that Jesus was insane.

you will not find anything written to prove that Jesus ever claimed to be God that could not be interpreted in a more intelligent and rational way.

Rationalize John 8:58,

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “beforeAbraham was born, I am!”

keeping in mind Exodus 3:14.

God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”

You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham! “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Context is important. By finding it ridiculous that Jesus had seen Abraham before he was fifty years old the pharisees implied that if Jesus was fifty years old he could have seen Abraham which shows that seeing Abraham was about understanding Abraham and knowing intimate things between Abraham and God..

The answer Jesus gave , before Abraham was born I am, is not a claim of being God. he was saying that even though he was so young he understood Abraham because God, I am, has existed since even before Abraham was born and was with him as corresponds to his claim being the awaited Messiah and Deuteronomy 18:18 which shows that the messiah would speak for God about things that only God could know.

Yes, context is indeed important. Note the following verse:

At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

What was punishable by death in what Jesus said? Think it over.

 

[Mudda]

Yes, context is indeed important. Note the following verse:

At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

What was punishable by death in what Jesus said? Think it over.

He said he was gay?

 

[hobelim]

It's still not proof of anything.

Depends on what you're trying to prove.

If you are trying to prove that Jesus claimed to be God you might as well be trying to prove that Jesus was insane.

you will not find anything written to prove that Jesus ever claimed to be God that could not be interpreted in a more intelligent and rational way.

Rationalize John 8:58,

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “beforeAbraham was born, I am!”

keeping in mind Exodus 3:14.

God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”

You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham! “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Context is important. By finding it ridiculous that Jesus had seen Abraham before he was fifty years old the pharisees implied that if Jesus was fifty years old he could have seen Abraham which shows that seeing Abraham was about understanding Abraham and knowing intimate things between Abraham and God..

The answer Jesus gave , before Abraham was born I am, is not a claim of being God. he was saying that even though he was so young he understood Abraham because God, I am, has existed since even before Abraham was born and was with him as corresponds to his claim being the awaited Messiah and Deuteronomy 18:18 which shows that the messiah would speak for God about things that only God could know.

Yes, context is indeed important. Note the following verse:

At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

What was punishable by death in what Jesus said? Think it over.

Someone who they considered froward uttering the name of God would have been considered blasphemy. And according to scripture there was always some people who wanted to stone Jesus almost every time he said anything, and it wasn't because he was guilty of something.

His enemies were trying to discredit Jesus. Twisting what he said into a claim of divinity was one sure way to guarantee that every Jew would believe that he was insane and no one would take anything he said seriously.

By saying that Jesus claimed to be God you bring the name of Jesus into disrepute among all intelligent people and agree with what his enemies falsely accused him of..... being insane..

Think about that.

 

[Mudda]

Depends on what you're trying to prove.

If you are trying to prove that Jesus claimed to be God you might as well be trying to prove that Jesus was insane.

you will not find anything written to prove that Jesus ever claimed to be God that could not be interpreted in a more intelligent and rational way.

Rationalize John 8:58,

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “beforeAbraham was born, I am!”

keeping in mind Exodus 3:14.

God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”

You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham! “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Context is important. By finding it ridiculous that Jesus had seen Abraham before he was fifty years old the pharisees implied that if Jesus was fifty years old he could have seen Abraham which shows that seeing Abraham was about understanding Abraham and knowing intimate things between Abraham and God..

The answer Jesus gave , before Abraham was born I am, is not a claim of being God. he was saying that even though he was so young he understood Abraham because God, I am, has existed since even before Abraham was born and was with him as corresponds to his claim being the awaited Messiah and Deuteronomy 18:18 which shows that the messiah would speak for God about things that only God could know.

Yes, context is indeed important. Note the following verse:

At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

What was punishable by death in what Jesus said? Think it over.

Someone who they considered froward uttering the name of God would have been considered blasphemy. And according to scripture there was always some people who wanted to stone Jesus almost every time he said anything, and it wasn't because he was guilty of something.

His enemies were trying to discredit Jesus. Twisting what he said into a claim of divinity was one sure way to guarantee that every Jew would believe that he was insane and no one would take anything he said seriously.

By saying that Jesus claimed to be God you bring the name of Jesus into disrepute among all intelligent people and agree with what his enemies falsely accused him of..... being insane..

Think about that.

Anyone who thinks that the bible is factual is insane.

Think about that.

 

[hobelim]

Anyone who thinks that the bible is factual is insane.

Think about that.

Now thats a scary thought.

If its true then there are a legion of people out there who have infiltrated all levels of local, state and federal government usurping authority and establishing and enforcing laws and customs that favor believers and punish unbelievers according to the wisdom and morality of the insane.

 

[Bonzi]

I think the question is dumb.

(1) If there IS a God, he DEFINES morality, and it's impossible for Him to be immoral
(2) If there IS NO God, it's self defined (think Ayn Rand)

 

[hadit]

Depends on what you're trying to prove.

If you are trying to prove that Jesus claimed to be God you might as well be trying to prove that Jesus was insane.

you will not find anything written to prove that Jesus ever claimed to be God that could not be interpreted in a more intelligent and rational way.

Rationalize John 8:58,

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “beforeAbraham was born, I am!”

keeping in mind Exodus 3:14.

God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”

You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham! “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Context is important. By finding it ridiculous that Jesus had seen Abraham before he was fifty years old the pharisees implied that if Jesus was fifty years old he could have seen Abraham which shows that seeing Abraham was about understanding Abraham and knowing intimate things between Abraham and God..

The answer Jesus gave , before Abraham was born I am, is not a claim of being God. he was saying that even though he was so young he understood Abraham because God, I am, has existed since even before Abraham was born and was with him as corresponds to his claim being the awaited Messiah and Deuteronomy 18:18 which shows that the messiah would speak for God about things that only God could know.

Yes, context is indeed important. Note the following verse:

At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

What was punishable by death in what Jesus said? Think it over.

Someone who they considered froward uttering the name of God would have been considered blasphemy. And according to scripture there was always some people who wanted to stone Jesus almost every time he said anything, and it wasn't because he was guilty of something.

His enemies were trying to discredit Jesus. Twisting what he said into a claim of divinity was one sure way to guarantee that every Jew would believe that he was insane and no one would take anything he said seriously.

By saying that Jesus claimed to be God you bring the name of Jesus into disrepute among all intelligent people and agree with what his enemies falsely accused him of..... being insane..

Think about that.

You're stretching, because it was only AFTER Jesus identified Himself as I AM that they tried to kill Him. While you're digesting that, think about this one:

From Mark 2

5When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man,“Son, your sins are forgiven.”

6Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7“Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

8Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? 9Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’? 10But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.

 

[Mudda]

I think the question is dumb.

(1) If there IS a God, he DEFINES morality, and it's impossible for Him to be immoral
(2) If there IS NO God, it's self defined (think Ayn Rand)

Why would god have to define morality? He could have created us and just let us go on our own way to see what happens.

 

[Bonzi]

I think the question is dumb.

(1) If there IS a God, he DEFINES morality, and it's impossible for Him to be immoral
(2) If there IS NO God, it's self defined (think Ayn Rand)

Why would god have to define morality? He could have created us and just let us go on our own way to see what happens.

The Creator by default sets the rules.

I would not consider a being a "God" if he created people that was flawed or where beings could become better than Himself.

Our minds can conjure up all kinds of things - maybe if you believe God as perhaps someone like us, yet, superior in intellect, but also fallible.....?

 

[hadit]

Anyone who thinks that the bible is factual is insane.

Think about that.

Now thats a scary thought.

If its true then there are a legion of people out there who have infiltrated all levels of local, state and federal government usurping authority and establishing and enforcing laws and customs that favor believers and punish unbelievers according to the wisdom and morality of the insane.

To say nothing of the millions, if not billions throughout history that, while supposedly insane, lived wonderful, giving, loving lives. To claim belief = insanity is, to put it mildly, insane.