Is it moral for God to punish us?

[hobelim]

Try ruminating. According to scripture, God is incorporeal and has no visible shape or material form. If this is true then there never was and never will be a human being that was God or became God either before during or after their human existence.

Jesus said that he was taught by God and sent by God and that God was the source of his being.

Any being whose existence is caused by God cannot be God.

"But go and tell my brothers that I am ascending to my Father and your Father, my God and your God." John 20:17

By saying that his God is our God Jesus effectively eliminated any possibility that he thought of himself as God or claimed to be God.

His enemies tried to discredit Jesus by saying that he claimed to be God because even in the first century anyone who claimed to be God would be insane.

"According to scripture", which also has not been proven to be anything else than malarkey. No proof there.

So why would you think there was even a slight possibility that Jesus was God? Your search for proof is fruitless?

How is it illogical to reject that claim?

I'm very familiar with the bible and I don't find it to be proof of anything. It suggests that jesus is god. Okay. Could be. But the bible isn't proof.

I didn't say that the bible was proof of anything. I said that beliefs that some people claim are based on the Bible, like Jesus is God, can easily be proven false if what they claim contradicts what is written, which it does..

And no, the bible does not suggest that Jesus was God. Even if it did why would you have any problem rejecting the claim that a human being was God incarnate?

If the bible isn't proof of anything then why did you quote it as a comeback to what I said earlier?

To show that even according to the very bible used a a basis for the belief, not to mention reality, there is no support for the claim that a human being was God incarnate. In fact the very words of Jesus that I posted from the Bible, not to mention the entire OT, irrefutably contradicts that claim whether the bible is malarky or not.

If a person claims that they believe that a three headed spaghetti monster diddled a virgin to become fully human without a human father because it says so in some book and if you read the book and find no support for such a claim then you have ample proof that they are either deceived or a deliberate deceiver, even if the book itself is not proof of anything.

If you point out the error and they do not repent, then you will know with 100% certainty that you are dealing with a deliberate deceiver, a direct descendant of that ever elusive talking serpent of old even if they are humble, wear fancy robes, embrace all faiths, and kiss little babies.

 

[Mudda]

"According to scripture", which also has not been proven to be anything else than malarkey. No proof there.

So why would you think there was even a slight possibility that Jesus was God? Your search for proof is fruitless?

How is it illogical to reject that claim?

I'm very familiar with the bible and I don't find it to be proof of anything. It suggests that jesus is god. Okay. Could be. But the bible isn't proof.

I didn't say that the bible was proof of anything. I said that beliefs that some people claim are based on the Bible, like Jesus is God, can easily be proven false if what they claim contradicts what is written, which it does..

And no, the bible does not suggest that Jesus was God. Even if it did why would you have any problem rejecting the claim that a human being was God incarnate?

If the bible isn't proof of anything then why did you quote it as a comeback to what I said earlier?

To show that even according to the very bible used a a basis for the belief, not to mention reality, there is no support for the claim that a human being was God incarnate. In fact the very words of Jesus that I posted from the Bible, not to mention the entire OT, irrefutably contradicts that claim whether the bible is malarky or not.

If a person claims that they believe that a three headed spaghetti monster diddled a virgin to become full human without a human father because it says so in some book and if you read the book and find no support for such a claim then you have ample proof that they are either deceived or a deliberate deceiver, even if the book itself is not proof of anything.

If you point out the error and they do not repent, then you will know with 100% certainty that you are dealing with a deliberate deceiver, a direct descendant of that ever elusive talking serpent of old even if they are humble, wear fancy robes, embrace all faiths, and kiss little babies.

It was actually PostModernPhophet who said that Jesus was god, I just didn't feel the need to debate that point, the bible is so convoluted, anyone can pretty well claim anything they feel like.
So you're saying he's a descendant of the talking snake? Ya, I can see that...

 

[hobelim]

So why would you think there was even a slight possibility that Jesus was God? Your search for proof is fruitless?

How is it illogical to reject that claim?

I'm very familiar with the bible and I don't find it to be proof of anything. It suggests that jesus is god. Okay. Could be. But the bible isn't proof.

I didn't say that the bible was proof of anything. I said that beliefs that some people claim are based on the Bible, like Jesus is God, can easily be proven false if what they claim contradicts what is written, which it does..

And no, the bible does not suggest that Jesus was God. Even if it did why would you have any problem rejecting the claim that a human being was God incarnate?

If the bible isn't proof of anything then why did you quote it as a comeback to what I said earlier?

To show that even according to the very bible used a a basis for the belief, not to mention reality, there is no support for the claim that a human being was God incarnate. In fact the very words of Jesus that I posted from the Bible, not to mention the entire OT, irrefutably contradicts that claim whether the bible is malarky or not.

If a person claims that they believe that a three headed spaghetti monster diddled a virgin to become full human without a human father because it says so in some book and if you read the book and find no support for such a claim then you have ample proof that they are either deceived or a deliberate deceiver, even if the book itself is not proof of anything.

If you point out the error and they do not repent, then you will know with 100% certainty that you are dealing with a deliberate deceiver, a direct descendant of that ever elusive talking serpent of old even if they are humble, wear fancy robes, embrace all faiths, and kiss little babies.

It was actually PostModernPhophet who said that Jesus was god, I just didn't feel the need to debate that point, the bible is so convoluted, anyone can pretty well claim anything they feel like.
So you're saying he's a descendant of the talking snake? Ya, I can see that...

Then, if scripture is true, you can be sure that he will defiantly carry on the charade, preying on and poisoning the minds of the gullible, crawling on his belly and eating dust till kingdom come..

 

[hadit]

I believe that that is possible, but not proven to me yet. Therefore, it would seem illogical for me to reject outright your statement. My search for proof is ongoing, but so far fruitless.

Try ruminating. According to scripture, God is incorporeal and has no visible shape or material form. If this is true then there never was and never will be a human being that was God or became God either before during or after their human existence.

Jesus said that he was taught by God and sent by God and that God was the source of his being.

Any being whose existence is caused by God cannot be God.

"But go and tell my brothers that I am ascending to my Father and your Father, my God and your God." John 20:17

By saying that his God is our God Jesus effectively eliminated any possibility that he thought of himself as God or claimed to be God.

His enemies tried to discredit Jesus by saying that he claimed to be God because even in the first century anyone who claimed to be God would be insane.

"According to scripture", which also has not been proven to be anything else than malarkey. No proof there.

So why would you think there was even a slight possibility that Jesus was God? Your search for proof is fruitless?

How is it illogical to reject that claim?

I'm very familiar with the bible and I don't find it to be proof of anything. It suggests that jesus is god. Okay. Could be. But the bible isn't proof.

It doesn't suggest, it comes right out and says it.

 

[Mudda]

I believe that that is possible, but not proven to me yet. Therefore, it would seem illogical for me to reject outright your statement. My search for proof is ongoing, but so far fruitless.

Try ruminating. According to scripture, God is incorporeal and has no visible shape or material form. If this is true then there never was and never will be a human being that was God or became God either before during or after their human existence.

Jesus said that he was taught by God and sent by God and that God was the source of his being.

Any being whose existence is caused by God cannot be God.

"But go and tell my brothers that I am ascending to my Father and your Father, my God and your God." John 20:17

By saying that his God is our God Jesus effectively eliminated any possibility that he thought of himself as God or claimed to be God.

His enemies tried to discredit Jesus by saying that he claimed to be God because even in the first century anyone who claimed to be God would be insane.

"According to scripture", which also has not been proven to be anything else than malarkey. No proof there.

So why would you think there was even a slight possibility that Jesus was God? Your search for proof is fruitless?

How is it illogical to reject that claim?

I'm very familiar with the bible and I don't find it to be proof of anything. It suggests that jesus is god. Okay. Could be. But the bible isn't proof.

It doesn't suggest, it comes right out and says it.

It's still not proof of anything.

 

[Moonglow]

God had a perfect plan for us.
We rejected it.

We? I was not at the Garden of Eden....

 

[Bonzi]

God had a perfect plan for us.
We rejected it.

We? I was not at the Garden of Eden....

yeah but you still have to pay. I know, it sucks......

 

[Moonglow]

God had a perfect plan for us.
We rejected it.

We? I was not at the Garden of Eden....

yeah but you still have to pay. I know, it sucks......

Damn peer pressure...

 

[Bonzi]

God had a perfect plan for us.
We rejected it.

We? I was not at the Garden of Eden....

yeah but you still have to pay. I know, it sucks......

Damn peer pressure...

hey if you're happy, there is happiness for a season.
but then there is eternity to deal with.......

 

[Moonglow]

God had a perfect plan for us.
We rejected it.

We? I was not at the Garden of Eden....

yeah but you still have to pay. I know, it sucks......

Damn peer pressure...

hey if you're happy, there is happiness for a season.
but then there is eternity to deal with.......

I doubt it.....

 

[Bonzi]

God had a perfect plan for us.
We rejected it.

We? I was not at the Garden of Eden....

yeah but you still have to pay. I know, it sucks......

Damn peer pressure...

hey if you're happy, there is happiness for a season.
but then there is eternity to deal with.......

I doubt it.....

.... are you happy?

 

[Moonglow]

We? I was not at the Garden of Eden....

yeah but you still have to pay. I know, it sucks......

Damn peer pressure...

hey if you're happy, there is happiness for a season.
but then there is eternity to deal with.......

I doubt it.....

.... are you happy?

As well as can be expected...

 

[Bonzi]

yeah but you still have to pay. I know, it sucks......

Damn peer pressure...

hey if you're happy, there is happiness for a season.
but then there is eternity to deal with.......

I doubt it.....

.... are you happy?

As well as can be expected...

.... contingent on age and health, things outside of your control?

 

[Moonglow]

Damn peer pressure...

hey if you're happy, there is happiness for a season.
but then there is eternity to deal with.......

I doubt it.....

.... are you happy?

As well as can be expected...

.... contingent on age and health, things outside of your control?

I am comfortable with my existence, as you get older you must accept your fate...

 

[Campbell]

Is it moral for God to punish us?

Is it moral for an all-knowing and all-powerful God to set in motion a history that he designs and then condemns others for?

We live in a history that God has set up and is fully responsible for. God, punishing man, who can do nothing but follow God’s plan and the nature God has put in us, is having innocent people suffer for the wrongs God himself has pre-destined and which cannot be altered.

For example.

God chose to have Jesus sacrificed. God, in his planning book would also have decided who would kill Jesus. There would be no way for that man to not kill Jesus or God’s plan would fall off the rails and in this case, we would not have a messiah or scapegoat to ride into heaven.

Some will say we have free will but as shown in the example above, Jesus’ killer could not refrain from killing Jesus without derailing God’s plan. Further, to pre-destine any one action or condition within a history changes all other conditions and pre-destines all conditions within the plan. Think the butterfly effect.

Having said the above and having shown that we have no free will if anything is pre-destined, I think it would be quite immoral for God to judge or punish us for being and doing exactly what he pre-ordained for us in his plan. We have no choice and to punish us is immoral.

Do you agree?

If not, why not?

Regards
DL

What difference does it make what we have? God has the final say and anytime someone prays about a problem or difficulty if it's not his will I don't imagine he's gonna change it. Why would he whip up an F5 tornado in someone's back yard then because those effected got in a quick prayer...change his mind?

I've personally observed the effects of billions of prayers and they were ignored.
When I was born in 1934 the average life expectancy of a White male in the United States was 61. If
someone survived their first heart attack they would mope around essentially disabled for a couple of years then die. Cancer was a death sentence. The only treatment was surgery and over half the time the tumor metastasized and spread. The afflicted usually lasted a year after that at the most.

Wednesday evening prayer meetings all over this country were crowded and prayer lists were a foot long. Every family either had a member or a close friend who was sick or dying. People prayed till their knees were bloody and the afflicted suffered and died anyway.

Now the average life expectancy of a White male at birth is 78. Thanks to the electronic spin offs from the moon landing in the late 60's we have sophisticated diagnostic systems, MRI, CTscans, ultrasound, echocardiogram, endoscopy, colonoscopy, heart catherization procedures, stents, bypasses, transplants, stem cell technology, chemo, radiation and limited invasive surgical procedures which produce much lower mortality statistics. What about the millions upon millions who died or suffered unmercifully before all this technology and research came about? Did anything the prayer group did have any effect at all? I think not!

 

[hobelim]

Is it moral for God to punish us?

Is it moral for an all-knowing and all-powerful God to set in motion a history that he designs and then condemns others for?

We live in a history that God has set up and is fully responsible for. God, punishing man, who can do nothing but follow God’s plan and the nature God has put in us, is having innocent people suffer for the wrongs God himself has pre-destined and which cannot be altered.

For example.

God chose to have Jesus sacrificed. God, in his planning book would also have decided who would kill Jesus. There would be no way for that man to not kill Jesus or God’s plan would fall off the rails and in this case, we would not have a messiah or scapegoat to ride into heaven.

Some will say we have free will but as shown in the example above, Jesus’ killer could not refrain from killing Jesus without derailing God’s plan. Further, to pre-destine any one action or condition within a history changes all other conditions and pre-destines all conditions within the plan. Think the butterfly effect.

Having said the above and having shown that we have no free will if anything is pre-destined, I think it would be quite immoral for God to judge or punish us for being and doing exactly what he pre-ordained for us in his plan. We have no choice and to punish us is immoral.

Do you agree?

If not, why not?

Regards
DL

What difference does it make what we have? God has the final say and anytime someone prays about a problem or difficulty if it's not his will I don't imagine he's gonna change it. Why would he whip up an F5 tornado in someone's back yard then because those effected got in a quick prayer...change his mind?

I've personally observed the effects of billions of prayers and they were ignored.
When I was born in 1934 the average life expectancy of a White male in the United States was 61. If
someone survived their first heart attack they would mope around essentially disabled for a couple of years then die. Cancer was a death sentence. The only treatment was surgery and over half the time the tumor metastasized and spread. The afflicted usually lasted a year after that at the most.

Wednesday evening prayer meetings all over this country were crowded and prayer lists were a foot long. Every family either had a member or a close friend who was sick or dying. People prayed till their knees were bloody and the afflicted suffered and died anyway.

Now the average life expectancy of a White male at birth is 78. Thanks to the electronic spin offs from the moon landing in the late 60's we have sophisticated diagnostic systems, MRI, CTscans, ultrasound, echocardiogram, endoscopy, colonoscopy, heart catherization procedures, stents, bypasses, transplants, stem cell technology, chemo, radiation and limited invasive surgical procedures which produce much lower mortality statistics. What about the millions upon millions who died or suffered unmercifully before all this technology and research came about? Did anything the prayer group did have any effect at all? I think not!

Maybe they didn't pray loud enough? Maybe God was sleeping? Maybe they were praying for the wrong thing? Maybe they were praying to the wrong God? Maybe biological death is good?

God didn't spare Jesus from facing what all human beings must face, physical decline, suffering, and death.

Technology will never spare anyone from that fate either.

If God ever did end physical death on earth for every moron who asked, life on earth would become hell for everyone else in a matter of minutes.

 

[Campbell]

Is it moral for God to punish us?

Is it moral for an all-knowing and all-powerful God to set in motion a history that he designs and then condemns others for?

We live in a history that God has set up and is fully responsible for. God, punishing man, who can do nothing but follow God’s plan and the nature God has put in us, is having innocent people suffer for the wrongs God himself has pre-destined and which cannot be altered.

For example.

God chose to have Jesus sacrificed. God, in his planning book would also have decided who would kill Jesus. There would be no way for that man to not kill Jesus or God’s plan would fall off the rails and in this case, we would not have a messiah or scapegoat to ride into heaven.

Some will say we have free will but as shown in the example above, Jesus’ killer could not refrain from killing Jesus without derailing God’s plan. Further, to pre-destine any one action or condition within a history changes all other conditions and pre-destines all conditions within the plan. Think the butterfly effect.

Having said the above and having shown that we have no free will if anything is pre-destined, I think it would be quite immoral for God to judge or punish us for being and doing exactly what he pre-ordained for us in his plan. We have no choice and to punish us is immoral.

Do you agree?

If not, why not?

Regards
DL

What difference does it make what we have? God has the final say and anytime someone prays about a problem or difficulty if it's not his will I don't imagine he's gonna change it. Why would he whip up an F5 tornado in someone's back yard then because those effected got in a quick prayer...change his mind?

I've personally observed the effects of billions of prayers and they were ignored.
When I was born in 1934 the average life expectancy of a White male in the United States was 61. If
someone survived their first heart attack they would mope around essentially disabled for a couple of years then die. Cancer was a death sentence. The only treatment was surgery and over half the time the tumor metastasized and spread. The afflicted usually lasted a year after that at the most.

Wednesday evening prayer meetings all over this country were crowded and prayer lists were a foot long. Every family either had a member or a close friend who was sick or dying. People prayed till their knees were bloody and the afflicted suffered and died anyway.

Now the average life expectancy of a White male at birth is 78. Thanks to the electronic spin offs from the moon landing in the late 60's we have sophisticated diagnostic systems, MRI, CTscans, ultrasound, echocardiogram, endoscopy, colonoscopy, heart catherization procedures, stents, bypasses, transplants, stem cell technology, chemo, radiation and limited invasive surgical procedures which produce much lower mortality statistics. What about the millions upon millions who died or suffered unmercifully before all this technology and research came about? Did anything the prayer group did have any effect at all? I think not!

Maybe they didn't pray loud enough? Maybe God was sleeping? Maybe they were praying for the wrong thing? Maybe they were praying to the wrong God? Maybe biological death is good?

God didn't spare Jesus from facing what all human beings must face, physical decline, suffering, and death.

Technology will never spare anyone from that fate either.

If God ever did end physical death on earth for every moron who asked, life on earth would become hell for everyone else in a matter of minutes.

There are 8.74 Million Species of some form of life on Earth. Why don't you just admit that we are just like those? Everything is born or hatched. Everything is dependent upon something or someone else till it matures. Everything ages and dies. That's the problem with the early species of mankind....they were trying to deal with the concept of death and trying to control a developing imagination at the same time. Every form of life will die and then it goddam sure ain't going anywhere else. Those who believe anything else just can't handle the truth. Flying off to Pearly Gates on gossamer wings? LMAO!!!

 

[hobelim]

There are 8.74 Million Species of some form of life on Earth. Why don't you just admit that we are just like those? Everything is born or hatched. Everything is dependent upon something or someone else till it matures. Everything ages and dies.

I agree. So? Maybe you didn't notice that I was being facetious. Maybe you didn't notice that I suggested that there was a good reason or the point that technology has not and will never solve the problem of suffering even if if it were possible to end the reality of physical mortality,.. which it isn't.

That's the problem with the early species of mankind....they were trying to deal with the concept of death and trying to control a developing imagination at the same time. Every form of life will die and then it goddam sure ain't going anywhere else. Those who believe anything else just can't handle the truth. Flying off to Pearly Gates on gossamer wings? LMAO!!!

When Moses said that the law presented a choice between life and death, he was not speaking about biological life or physical death.

The problem is not that people who believe in an afterlife can't handle the truth, the problem is that they have been deceived about what the truth is.

 

[Campbell]

There are 8.74 Million Species of some form of life on Earth. Why don't you just admit that we are just like those? Everything is born or hatched. Everything is dependent upon something or someone else till it matures. Everything ages and dies.

I agree. So? Maybe you didn't notice that I was being facetious. Maybe you didn't notice that I suggested that there was a good reason or the point that technology has not and will never solve the problem of suffering even if if it were possible to end the reality of physical mortality,.. which it isn't.

That's the problem with the early species of mankind....they were trying to deal with the concept of death and trying to control a developing imagination at the same time. Every form of life will die and then it goddam sure ain't going anywhere else. Those who believe anything else just can't handle the truth. Flying off to Pearly Gates on gossamer wings? LMAO!!!

When Moses said that the law presented a choice between life and death, he was not speaking about biological life or physical death.

The problem is not that people who believe in an afterlife can't handle the truth, the problem is that they have been deceived about what the truth is.

You know.....when folks begin to tell me they're gonna live on in bliss while the ones who disagree with what they believe burn in eternal hell fire they can all kiss my big orange, east TN Volunteer, Coon Dawg arse!!

 

[hobelim]

There are 8.74 Million Species of some form of life on Earth. Why don't you just admit that we are just like those? Everything is born or hatched. Everything is dependent upon something or someone else till it matures. Everything ages and dies.

I agree. So? Maybe you didn't notice that I was being facetious. Maybe you didn't notice that I suggested that there was a good reason or the point that technology has not and will never solve the problem of suffering even if if it were possible to end the reality of physical mortality,.. which it isn't.

That's the problem with the early species of mankind....they were trying to deal with the concept of death and trying to control a developing imagination at the same time. Every form of life will die and then it goddam sure ain't going anywhere else. Those who believe anything else just can't handle the truth. Flying off to Pearly Gates on gossamer wings? LMAO!!!

When Moses said that the law presented a choice between life and death, he was not speaking about biological life or physical death.

The problem is not that people who believe in an afterlife can't handle the truth, the problem is that they have been deceived about what the truth is.

You know.....when folks begin to tell me they're gonna live on in bliss while the ones who disagree with what they believe burn in eternal hell fire they can all kiss my big orange, east TN Volunteer, Coon Dawg arse!!

I feel sorry for them. You may not believe in hell, but for them hell is all too real.

By believing in things that never actually happened and waiting for things that will never occur they are doomed to fuck up their own experience of the only reality that actually exists.

I see it as confirmation of the teachings in the bible. The wages of sin are death and all that. They lie in the name of God, set aside the divine commands, and teach others to do the same.

They have their reward already.