Is it really free will, If you only have one option?

[Fort Fun Indiana]

You know, if anyone has a chance to get a copy of a book called "The Tao is Silent", you should read chapter 20 of that book.

It talks a great deal about free will and why we have it. A man is talking to God and is asking for his free will to be removed so he will no longer be able to sin.

Rather interesting take on the whole concept of free will. According to the author, the reason we have it is so that we don't kill everyone around us, because we see the value in having others around and cooperation is much more valuable than confrontation.

That sounds like ants have free will too, then.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Are you exercising free will if all the activities in your brain are deterministic?

I would say no, insomuch as that means you are the conscious agent of your actions.

 

[dblack]

Are you exercising free will if all the activities in your brain are deterministic?

I would say no, insomuch as that means you are the conscious agent of your actions.

Why can't a conscious agent be bound by cause and effect, like everything else? And if it's not bound by cause and effect, how is that any different than random?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Are you exercising free will if all the activities in your brain are deterministic?

I would say no, insomuch as that means you are the conscious agent of your actions.

Why can't a conscious agent be bound by cause and effect, like everything else? And if it's not bound by cause and effect, how is that any different than random?

It can, but you will have to modify how you look at "conscious agent", then. Because the evidence shows we make our choices before we wmare aware we have made them.

Why would this be random? Your body has structure. The electrochemical.pulses have pathways, and they follow them. "Random" is a tonic-clonic seizure. Why not that? Because we wouldnt be able to live and reproduce in that state.

 

[ding]

That all depends on your level of competence.

No it doesn't. It depends on the evidence. And you would be a fool to try the trick of "argument to authority" against this, when these are lifelong scientists performing these experiments. Oh, and all are producing the same results. Every time, without fail.

You literally have to have conscious thought about things you don’t know like the back of your hand.

Nobody is denying that the conscious mind doesn't take in and process information. Surely you don't think you just outsmarted people who have dedicated their lives to this science, and have thought of something they have not. Or, maybe you do ... that's another bad habit of yours, actually. Which, of course, is used to support another bad habit of yours: dismissing evidence so you don't have to account for it.

You are literally saying all choices are made subconsciously. That is an absolute statement and it is bullshit.

I am not denying evidence. I am denying your faulty interpretation of their findings.

Sorry but competence and knowledge do play a role in processing information as well as timing of information. I don’t know how your mind works but the way my mind works is that I am constantly challenging my choices and seeking new information that will aide in making my choices. Many times the new information is acquired because I am challenging my choices. So it really isn’t possible for me to do those things subconsciously nor is it possible for me to make a final selection subconsciously until I consciously decide that I have the pertinent information to make a decision.

Now go ahead and wave your arms so more and say evidence without presenting any or explaining it.

 

[Blues Man]

Discuss.....

There is almost always more than one option.

Not without consequences.

.

don't all options have consequences?

 

[ding]

Now let me say that the logical conclusion of believing that one does not have free will is fatalism.

If one believes he has no choice then one must believe he has no control. If one believes he has no control then one must believe that all events are beyond his control. If one believes that all events are beyond his control then one must believe that nothing he does matters. That is the definition of fatalism.

No wonder there are so many idiots who believe they aren’t accountable for their actions. Nothing can be their fault because they never had a choice in the matter.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

You are literally saying all choices are made subconsciously.

Correct! All of them.

I am denying your faulty interpretation of their findings.

No you arent. You are denying the conclusions of the researchers, while also presenting no alternative interpretation of your own. That is now 4 times you have tried to attribute the research and its conclusions to me. Because you are a quack, and you desperately want to make your argument about me instead od the evidence.

This is because you can't make any informed comments about the research. And this is because you have never read word one about any of this, despite your claim to the contrary.

 

[dblack]

Why can't a conscious agent be bound by cause and effect, like everything else? And if it's not bound by cause and effect, how is that any different than random?

It can, but you will have to modify how you look at "conscious agent", then. Because the evidence shows we make our choices before we are aware we have made them.

Does anything besides the presumption that consciousness is non-deterministic need to be modified?

Why would this be random? Your body has structure. The electrochemical.pulses have pathways, and they follow them.

And that sounds like cause and effect to me. I'm offering "random" as the opposite of deterministic. Most people seem to define free will as some kind of middle ground between deterministic and random, which I find incoherent. They seem to want to hold onto cause and effect (determinism) when describing the workings of the brain, yet be "free" from it in certain instances. But which instances? And what does it mean to be free from cause and effect?

To me, free will is simply the ability to think and make decisions. That doesn't mean you'll be free from your past, or free from outside influence. It just means you can consider and choose what you do.

 

[Indeependent]

Breathing...no free will.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Does anything besides the presumption that consciousness is non-deterministic need to be modified?

Probably not, for most people. For philosophers and psychologists, yes.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Most people seem to define free will as some kind of middle ground between deterministic and random, which I find incoherent. They seem to want to hold onto cause and effect (determinism) when describing the workings of the brain, yet be "free" from it in certain instances. But which instances?

No instances.

 

[ding]

You are literally saying all choices are made subconsciously.

Correct! All of them.

I am denying your faulty interpretation of their findings.

No you arent. You are denying the conclusions of the researchers, while also presenting no alternative interpretation of your own. That is now 4 times you have tried to attribute the research and its conclusions to me. Because you are a quack, and you desperately want to make your argument about me instead od the evidence.

This is because you can't make any informed comments about the research. And this is because you have never read word one about any of this, despite your claim to the contrary.

No. I’m am pretty sure I am denying your interpretation of their findings. That you are misapplying their findings.

You don’t know what I have and have not read.

Decision-making May Be Surprisingly Unconscious Activity

Now you know at least one thing I have read. Would you like for me to point out your errors?

 

[james bond]

"Free will", as we have generally come to describe it, is an illusion anyway.

No, it isn't. It's not free will if you only have one option. The stupidest dumb farks in the world like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens only believe there is one option. Maybe there is only one option about listening to them. Don't.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

"Free will", as we have generally come to describe it, is an illusion anyway.

No, it isn't. It's not free will if you only have one option. The stupidest dumb farks in the world like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens only believe there is one option. Maybe there is only one option about listening to them. Don't.

Literally not one word of any of that has anything to do with any point I made.

 

[harmonica]

.....if there is total free will, how come males commit 85% of murders?--how come females '''choose''' ''''better''''??
or how come blacks murder at FOUR times the rate of whites?
there is not total free will

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

.....if there is total free will, how come males commit 85% of murders?--how come females '''choose''' ''''better''''??
or how come blacks murder at FOUR times the rate of whites?
there is not total free will

You tell us. I am especially interested in your hypothesis on blacks. By the way, you forgot to say, "in the united states". If you keep forgetting your words, someone might misunderstand what you are.

 

[james bond]

"Free will", as we have generally come to describe it, is an illusion anyway.

No, it isn't. It's not free will if you only have one option. The stupidest dumb farks in the world like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens only believe there is one option. Maybe there is only one option about listening to them. Don't.

Literally not one word of any of that has anything to do with any point I made.

Hahahahahahaha, you made a point? Please explain.

Sorry, but Hitchens has gone to meet his maker, so no need to discuss him anymore although he made some poor choices with his life. "A man reaps what he sows." Galatians 6:7

Jesus said in regards to free will, "You refuse to come to me to have life” John 5:40.

 

[BreezeWood]

- If you only have one option?

"to be or not to be"

To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them: to die, to sleep
No more; and by a sleep, to say we end

 

[james bond]

- If you only have one option?

"to be or not to be"

"In the next life." Are you up for it or not? Your choice.