Zone1 Is Jesus God?

Information always corresponds to something physical or material otherwise you're simply arguing for the insensible (arguing for nonsense), which isn't logical or scientific at all. God can be both transcendent and eminent as the Bible says, "All in All". Nothing exists independent or outside of God, including the space-time continuum, where we live and find our being. It's quite RICH for a Trinitarian to start appealing to reason or ideological coherence when he believes Jesus is a finite man while also being the infinite God. It's quite funny actually.
C.S. Lewis responds:
Book II
What Christians Believe
1. The Rival Conceptions Of God

"I have been asked to tell you what Christians believe, and I am going to begin
by telling you one thing that Christians do not need to believe. If you
are a Christian you do not have to believe that all the other religions are
simply wrong all through. If you are an atheist you do have to believe that the
main point in all the religions of the whole world is simply one huge mistake.
If you are a Christian, you are free to think that all these religions, even the
queerest ones, contain at least some hint of the truth. When I was an atheist
I had to try to persuade myself that most of the human race have always
been wrong about the question that mattered to them most; when I became a
Christian I was able to take a more liberal view. But, of course, being a Christian
does mean thinking that where Christianity differs from other religions,
Christianity is right and they are wrong. As in arithmetic — there is only one
right answer to a sum, and all other answers are wrong: but some of the wrong
answers are much nearer being right than others.
The first big division of humanity is into the majority, who believe in some
kind of God or gods, and the minority who do not. On this point, Christianity
lines up with the majority — lines up with ancient Greeks and Romans,
modern savages, Stoics, Platonists, Hindus, Mohammedans, etc., against the
modern Western European materialist.
Now I go on to the next big division. People who all believe in God can be
divided according to the sort of God they believe in. There are two very different
ideas on this subject One of them is the idea that He is beyond good and
evil. We humans call one thing good and another thing bad. But according to
some people that is merely our human point of view. These people would say
that the wiser you become the less you would want to call anything good or
bad, and the more dearly you would see that everything is good in one way
and bad in another, and that nothing could have been different. Consequently,
these people think that long before you got anywhere near the divine point of
view the distinction would have disappeared altogether. We call a cancer bad,
they would say, because it kills a man; but you might just as well call a successful
surgeon bad because he kills a cancer. It all depends on the point of view.
The other and opposite idea is that God is quite definitely "good" or "righteous."
a God who takes sides, who loves love and hates hatred, who wants us
to behave in one way and not in another. The first of these views — the one
that thinks God beyond good and evil — is called Pantheism. It was held by
the great Prussian philosopher Hegel and, as far as I can understand them, by
the Hindus. The other view is held by Jews, Mohammedans and Christians.
And with this big difference between Pantheism and the Christian idea of
God, there usually goes another. Pantheists usually believe that God, so to
speak, animates the universe as you animate your body: that the universe almost
is God, so that if it did not exist He would not exist either, and anything
you find in the universe is a part of God. The Christian idea is quite different.
They think God invented and made the universe — like a man making a
picture or composing a tune. A painter is not a picture, and he does not die
if his picture is destroyed. You may say, "He's put a lot of himself into it," but
you only mean that all its beauty and interest has come out of his head. His
skill is not in the picture in the same way that it is in his head, or even in his
hands. expect you see how this difference between Pantheists and Christians
hangs together with the other one. If you do not take the distinction between
good and bad very seriously, then it is easy to say that anything you find in this
world is a part of God. But, of course, if you think some things really bad, and
God really good, then you cannot talk like that. You must believe that God is
separate from the world and that some of the things we see in it are contrary
to His will. Confronted with a cancer or a slum the Pantheist can say, "If you
could only see it from the divine point of view, you would realise that this also
is God." The Christian replies, "Don't talk damned nonsense."4
For Christianity is a fighting religion. It thinks God made the world — that
space and time, heat and cold, and all the colours and tastes, and all the animals
and vegetables, are things that God "made up out of His head" as a man
makes up a story. But it also thinks that a great many things have gone wrong
with the world that God made and that God insists, and insists very loudly, on
our putting them right again.

And, of course, that raises a very big question. If a good God made the
world why has it gone wrong? And for many years I simply refused to listen
to the Christian answers to this question, because I kept on feeling "whatever
you say, and however clever your arguments are, isn't it much simpler and
easier to say that the world was not made by any intelligent power? Aren't all
your arguments simply a complicated attempt to avoid the obvious?" But then
that threw me back into another difficulty.
My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust.
But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line
crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this
universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless
from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show,
find myself in such violent reaction against it? A man feels wet when he falls
into water, because man is not a water animal: a fish would not feel wet.
Of course I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was nothing
but a private idea of my own. But if I did that, then my argument against
God collapsed too — for the argument depended on saying that the world
was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my private fancies.
Thus in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist — in other
words, that the whole of reality was senseless — I found I was forced to assume
that one part of reality — namely my idea of justice — was full of sense."
Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has
no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as,
if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we
should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.
 
C.S. Lewis responds:
Book II
What Christians Believe
1. The Rival Conceptions Of God

"I have been asked to tell you what Christians believe, and I am going to begin
by telling you one thing that Christians do not need to believe. If you
are a Christian you do not have to believe that all the other religions are
simply wrong all through. If you are an atheist you do have to believe that the
main point in all the religions of the whole world is simply one huge mistake.
If you are a Christian, you are free to think that all these religions, even the
queerest ones, contain at least some hint of the truth. When I was an atheist
I had to try to persuade myself that most of the human race have always
been wrong about the question that mattered to them most; when I became a
Christian I was able to take a more liberal view. But, of course, being a Christian
does mean thinking that where Christianity differs from other religions,
Christianity is right and they are wrong. As in arithmetic — there is only one
right answer to a sum, and all other answers are wrong: but some of the wrong
answers are much nearer being right than others.
The first big division of humanity is into the majority, who believe in some
kind of God or gods, and the minority who do not. On this point, Christianity
lines up with the majority — lines up with ancient Greeks and Romans,
modern savages, Stoics, Platonists, Hindus, Mohammedans, etc., against the
modern Western European materialist.
Now I go on to the next big division. People who all believe in God can be
divided according to the sort of God they believe in. There are two very different
ideas on this subject One of them is the idea that He is beyond good and
evil. We humans call one thing good and another thing bad. But according to
some people that is merely our human point of view. These people would say
that the wiser you become the less you would want to call anything good or
bad, and the more dearly you would see that everything is good in one way
and bad in another, and that nothing could have been different. Consequently,
these people think that long before you got anywhere near the divine point of
view the distinction would have disappeared altogether. We call a cancer bad,
they would say, because it kills a man; but you might just as well call a successful
surgeon bad because he kills a cancer. It all depends on the point of view.
The other and opposite idea is that God is quite definitely "good" or "righteous."
a God who takes sides, who loves love and hates hatred, who wants us
to behave in one way and not in another. The first of these views — the one
that thinks God beyond good and evil — is called Pantheism. It was held by
the great Prussian philosopher Hegel and, as far as I can understand them, by
the Hindus. The other view is held by Jews, Mohammedans and Christians.
And with this big difference between Pantheism and the Christian idea of
God, there usually goes another. Pantheists usually believe that God, so to
speak, animates the universe as you animate your body: that the universe almost
is God, so that if it did not exist He would not exist either, and anything
you find in the universe is a part of God. The Christian idea is quite different.
They think God invented and made the universe — like a man making a
picture or composing a tune. A painter is not a picture, and he does not die
if his picture is destroyed. You may say, "He's put a lot of himself into it," but
you only mean that all its beauty and interest has come out of his head. His
skill is not in the picture in the same way that it is in his head, or even in his
hands. expect you see how this difference between Pantheists and Christians
hangs together with the other one. If you do not take the distinction between
good and bad very seriously, then it is easy to say that anything you find in this
world is a part of God. But, of course, if you think some things really bad, and
God really good, then you cannot talk like that. You must believe that God is
separate from the world and that some of the things we see in it are contrary
to His will. Confronted with a cancer or a slum the Pantheist can say, "If you
could only see it from the divine point of view, you would realise that this also
is God." The Christian replies, "Don't talk damned nonsense."4
For Christianity is a fighting religion. It thinks God made the world — that
space and time, heat and cold, and all the colours and tastes, and all the animals
and vegetables, are things that God "made up out of His head" as a man
makes up a story. But it also thinks that a great many things have gone wrong
with the world that God made and that God insists, and insists very loudly, on
our putting them right again.

And, of course, that raises a very big question. If a good God made the
world why has it gone wrong? And for many years I simply refused to listen
to the Christian answers to this question, because I kept on feeling "whatever
you say, and however clever your arguments are, isn't it much simpler and
easier to say that the world was not made by any intelligent power? Aren't all
your arguments simply a complicated attempt to avoid the obvious?" But then
that threw me back into another difficulty.
My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust.
But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line
crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this
universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless
from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show,
find myself in such violent reaction against it? A man feels wet when he falls
into water, because man is not a water animal: a fish would not feel wet.
Of course I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was nothing
but a private idea of my own. But if I did that, then my argument against
God collapsed too — for the argument depended on saying that the world
was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my private fancies.
Thus in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist — in other
words, that the whole of reality was senseless — I found I was forced to assume
that one part of reality — namely my idea of justice — was full of sense."
Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has
no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as,
if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we
should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.
I'm not going to read a wall of text written by some other author. Summarize his argument in your own words or you're not worth any more of my precious time and energy.
 
All who can think for self reasonably will answer-NO to the question.

One greater than Jesus gave him all authority in heaven and on earth- Matt 28:18---Fact-God has always had the authority, none can give it to him.
One greater than Jesus gave him the judging duties-John 5:27--God was already judge.
God was king-1Chron 16:31--One greater than Jesus appointed him to a kingship( Dan 7:13-15)--But then Jesus must hand back the kingdom( 1Cor 15:24-28) to his God and Father and subject himself---God is in subjection to no one.
Jesus and his real teachers teach Jesus has a God=his Father-John 20:17, Rev 3:12--2Cor 1:3, Eph 1:3, Col 1:3--1Pet 1:3) God does not have a God.
Jesus teaches he can do 0 of his own( John 5:19, 30)--God did all the powerful works-THROUGH-Jesus( Acts 2:22, 1 Cor 8:5-6)--God created all things-99.9% -THROUGH- Jesus( Col 1:16)--He created Jesus first and last direct=The firstborn of all creation( Col 1:15) The only begotten son.

There is no capitol G God to the word at John 1:1 in the Greek lexicons- The true God called-Ton Theon=God, the word called Theon=god when in the same paragraph with Ton Theon as 2 Cor 4:4 clearly shows, its why there is a difference. translating works the same at both spots.

All being mislead into worshipping a non existent trinity created at the councils of Catholicism are breaking Gods #1 commandment daily. Not somewhere one wants to be standing.---Think about these facts, God warned all-GET OUT OF HER.
John 1:1
 
Information always corresponds to something physical or material otherwise you're simply arguing for the insensible (arguing for nonsense), which isn't logical or scientific at all. God can be both transcendent and eminent as the Bible says, "All in All". Nothing exists independent or outside of God, including the space-time continuum, where we live and find our being. It's quite RICH for a Trinitarian to start appealing to reason or ideological coherence when he believes Jesus is a finite man while also being the infinite God. It's quite funny actually.
That's a very narrow way of looking at information. That's more of an atheistic view than a Christian view as you are literally arguing that the incorporeal can only proceed from the corporeal. And you say this despite your acknowledging that God is transcendent and incorporeal. So you are already contradicting yourself.

But since you seem to believe that what I am saying is unscientific, let me educate you on that because you are incorrect.

III. Mind and Matter

A few years ago it occurred to me -- albeit with some shock to my scientific sensibilities -- that my two problems, that of a life‑breeding universe, and that of consciousness that can neither be identified nor located, might be brought together. That would be with the thought that mind, rather than being a late development in the evolution of organisms, had existed always: that this is a life‑breeding universe because the constant presence of mind made it so.

I have been in experimental science long enough to know that when you have done an experiment that comes out surprisingly well, the thing to do is enjoy it, because the next time you try it, it may not work. So when this idea struck me, I was elated, I enjoyed it immensely. But I was also embarrassed, because this idea violated all my scientific feelings. It took only a few weeks, however, for me to realize that I was in excellent company. That kind of thought is not only deeply embedded in millenia‑old Eastern philosophies; it is stated explicitly or strongly implied in the writings of a number of great and quite recent physicists.

Perhaps it was in part because I am a biologist that the idea at first seemed so strange to me. Biologists tend to be embarrassed by consciousness. As it is an attribute of some living organisms, they feel that they should know about it, and should indeed be in position to straighten out physicists about it, whereas exactly the opposite is true. Physicists live with the problem of consciousness day in and day out. Early in this century it became evident to all physicists that the observer is an intrinsic component of every physical observation. Physical reality is what physicists recognize to be real. One cannot separate the recognition of existence from existence. As Erwin Schrödinger put it: “The world is a construct of our sensations, perceptions, memories. It is convenient to regard it as existing objectively on its own. But it certainly does not become manifest by its mere existence.”

Let me give a simple example of the intervention of mind in physical observation: Most readers are probably aware that radiation -- light, indeed all elementary particles -- exhibits simultaneously the properties of waves and of particles, though those properties are altogether different -- indeed, mutually exclusive. This is the prime example of a widespread class of relationships that Neils Bohr brought together in his principle of complementarity, which notes that numbers of phenomena, in and out of physics, exhibit such mutually exclusive sets of properties; one just has to live with them.

Enter consciousness: the physicist, setting up an experiment on radiation, decides beforehand which of those sets of properties he will encounter. If he does a wave experiment, he gets a wave answer; from a particle experiment he gets a particle answer. To this degree, all physical observation is subjective.

It is primarily physicists who in recent times have expressed most clearly and forthrightly this pervasive relationship between mind and matter, and indeed at times the primacy of mind. Arthur Eddington in 1928 wrote, “the stuff of the world is mind‑stuff ... The mind‑stuff is not spread in space and time.... Recognizing that the physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness, we restore consciousness to the fundamental position . . .”

Von Weizsacker in 1971 states as “a new and, I feel, intelligible interpretation of quantum theory” what he calls his “Identity Hypothesis: Consciousness and matter are different aspects of the same reality.”

I like most of all Wolfgang Pauli’s formulation, from 1952: “To us . . . the only acceptable point of view appears to be the one that recognizes both sides of reality -- the quantitative and the qualitative, the physical and the psychical -- as compatible with each other, and can embrace them simultaneously . . . It would be most satisfactory of all if physis and psyche (i.e., matter and mind) could be seen as complementary aspects of the same reality.”

What this kind of thought means essentially is that one has no more basis for considering the existence of matter without its complementary aspect of mind, than for asking that elementary particles not also be waves.

As for this seeming a strange viewpoint for a scientist -- at least until one gets used to it -- as in so many other instances, what is wanted is not so much an acceptable concept as an acceptable rhetoric. If I say, with Eddington, “the stuff of the world is mind‑stuff,” that has a metaphysical ring. But if I say that ultimate reality is expressed in the solutions of the equations of quantum mechanics, quantum electrodynamics, and quantum field theory -- that sounds like good, modern physics. Yet what are those equations, indeed what is mathematics, but mind‑stuff? -- virtually the ultimate in mind‑stuff and for that reason deeply mysterious.


 
I'm not going to read a wall of text written by some other author. Summarize his argument in your own words or you're not worth any more of my precious time and energy.
You are free to remain ignorant. My obligation has been satisfied.
 
I'm not going to read a wall of text written by some other author. Summarize his argument in your own words or you're not worth any more of my precious time and energy.
You don't know who C.S. Lewis is? You've never read "Mere Christianity" or know the history of how that book came to be. It's a great book. Life changing.
 
Blessed are the pure of mind for they shall see God.
Pure of mind means to be objective. And to be objective one must die to self. It's the only way to see reality. And God is reality... among other "things."
 
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All who can think for self reasonably will answer-NO to the question.
You don't think it is odd that you just equated people thinking for themselves with people agreeing with you?

So since I can think for myself, I'm going to have go with YES instead of NO.
 
Not at all. I think God created existence (aka our universe) and we eventually arose according to the laws of nature as predestined by the laws of nature.

Then you should consider Ding, that God created far more than just our universe, and that the universe we see and live in and measure and touch is just a small part of his total creation.
 
How is that not contradictory?

Really, Ding? First I try to help you understand, then you label me Fake News, and now you come to me with yet more questions?

Maybe you should really continue to go on believing that a man born just 2000 years ago was really God's first person or whatever was said here, despite hard physical proof to the contrary.
 
Then you should consider Ding, that God created far more than just our universe, and that the universe we see and live in and measure and touch is just a small part of his total creation.
Sure, I have no reason to believe that isn't true. I have never argued otherwise. It doesn't change my beliefs one iota whether God created one universe or infinite universes. My personal belief is that we (i.e. our universe and everything in it) exists in the mind of God but that God isn't a corporeal being. I don't see how a corporeal being can be eternal or an eternal source of creating existences.
 
Really, Ding? First I try to help you understand, then you label me Fake News, and now you come to me with yet more questions?
I didn't label YOU as fake news. I labeled this as fake news:
You really do have a very poor grasp of theology and words after all. I bet you suck at mathematics. No wonder people constantly argue with you, Ding, but don't drag me into your mental syzygys.
And I am asking questions because what you have claimed appears to be incongruent. So I am asking for you to clarify what you are saying so I can understand it better.
 
Maybe you should really continue to go on believing that a man born just 2000 years ago was really God's first person or whatever was said here, despite hard physical proof to the contrary.
That doesn't accurately describe my beliefs so I can't continue believing that because I don't believe that. I believe we are God's creatures. That we came from dust and will return to dust. I believe that we are material and spiritual beings. That at our death our material being dies and our spiritual being lives on. That our spiritual being - depending upon our ability to accept God's love - will either be eternally united with God or eternally separated from God. That our level of communion with God will be based upon how much of God's love we can accept. That not everyone who can accept God's love will experience the same level of communion with God. The more righteous will experience God at a higher level. The less righteous will experience God at a lesser level. Those with hardened hearts won't be able to accept any level of God's love and will ask God to remove it. And at that time they will discover what it's like to be separated from God.

I believe God willed the universe into being and that everything unfolded according to that will and required no further intervention on God's part. I believe our material and spiritual being is created at conception.
 
Except for himself, that's obvious. YHWH Father created all things through and for His Son.
Except that the text clearly emphasizes that He created EVERYTHING that was created. If He had been created, that statement would be false.
 
God gave him those titles.
Think for a moment about what you just said. First, there's absolutely nothing in Scripture to support that assertion. If you think there is, post it, don't just claim it. Second, where has God EVER given someone else one of His own titles or allowed them to claim it for themselves? Again, if you think Scripture supports it, post it.

Sorry, but you're just flailing to avoid an inescapable conclusion. We see Yeshua carrying both the name "Word of God", who created ALL things, and one of God's titles as He leads the armies of heaven. He is God.
 
And here is where your blasphemy is revealed. Note how cleverly you attempted to twist the actual words Yeshua uttered to mean something different. Here's a hint in case you forgot, He didn't say anything about "pure of mind". He went deeper than that.

Its not that he went deeper than that. Pay attention.

At the time of Jesus the belief was that consciousness was seated in the organ of the heart. It is now well known that consciousness is seated in the organ or the brain. It follows then that whenever Jesus said anything about whats going on in the heart the actual meaning is about whats going on in the mind.

Blasphemy revealed? Damn, you seem really desperate. Here's a hint. Your mind is broken.
 

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