Zone1 Is Jesus God?

[hadit]

No, it wouldn't. You haven't studied your Bible enough. I can show you how absolute statements and conditions in the Bible are extremely rare, and this isn't one of them. Everything that was created, was created through Christ, except Christ. Jesus can be of the category of that which is created, even with that seemingly, absolute statement. I can show you but I won't unless you press me. You have to convince me, that you're genuinely interested in this topic, otherwise, I'm not investing my precious time and effort in you. You'll have to remain in ignorance unless you request Biblical evidence.

Convince me that the Bible says Yeshua is a created being.

John 1:

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Note, it does not say "any thing made that was made, except for Himself". You have to add that in. Anything that was made is pretty definitive.

During Creation, who is creating?

Genesis 1:

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Now, if you are saying that Yeshua created everything, and Genesis is saying that GOD created everything, the conclusion is that Yeshua is God.

Also, in Revelation 19,

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Note the bold. Where else do we see the title, "Lord of Lords"? Also note that this is no angel, as we see them called angels when they're referenced, in the next verse.

From Deuteronomy 10:

17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

God doesn't give other people His own titles.

 

[hobelim]

Jesus is God

#1: You don't take anything away from the Father, by worshiping His glorified and exalted Son.

There has never been and there will never be a human being that was God or became God either before during or after their human existence

You would have to throw away the entire Law and every testimony of every single prophet in the Bible, including Jesus, to "believe" that Jesus was God or that Jesus claimed to be God.

Go and tell my brothers that I am ascending to my Father and your Father; my God and your God

By saying that his God is our God Jesus effectively eliminated any possibility that he either claimed to be or thought of himself as God in spite of the maybe three things that he said that were misrepresented as a claim to divinity. Even when Jesus said that he was the Son of God his enemies twisted that into him claiming equality with God because it would mean he was insane, which is simply and completely false.

 

[hobelim]

Convince me that the Bible says Yeshua is a created being.

"If God were your Father you would love me, FOR GOD IS THE SOURCE OF MY BEING, and from Him I come. I have not come of my own accord; He sent me." John 8:42

Any living being, including Jesus, whose source of existence is God cannot be God. Simple.

 

[hadit]

"If God were your Father you would love me, FOR GOD IS THE SOURCE OF MY BEING, and from Him I come. I have not come of my own accord; He sent me." John 8:42

Any living being, including Jesus, whose source of existence is God cannot be God. Simple.

I've noticed that you don't put the references when you claim to quote Scripture. Bad form there:

Philippians 2:

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Remember, that's what got Lucifer kicked out of heaven. Yeshua did not think there was anything wrong with being equal to God. You see, I've shown you multiple times the He lowered Himself to become one of us, and you keep ignoring it. I can't help you when you do that.

 

[TruthNotBS]

There has never been and there will never be a human being that was God or became God either before during or after their human existence

You would have to throw away the entire Law and every testimony of every single prophet in the Bible, including Jesus, to insist that Jesus was God or Jesus claimed to be God.

Go and tell my brothers that I am ascending to my Father and your Father; my God and your God

By saying that his God is our God Jesus effectively eliminated any possibility that he either claimed to be or thought of himself as God in spite of the maybe three things that he said that were misrepresented as a claim to divinity. Even when Jesus said that he was the Son of God his enemies twisted that into him claiming equality with God which is simply and completely false.

Jesus is God for us or a "YHWH agent" (the top official representative of YHWH), which bears the Name of YHWH. So he is for all intents and purposes, YHWH to us. God with us. I disagree with the Trinitarian position that asserts that Jesus is co-equal, co-eternal, consubstantial with the heavenly Father. I believe that YHWH Father, is uniquely God, but His Son bears His Name, and hence functions as God. So if you worship Jesus, you are not committing idolatry. You commit idolatry when you worship something or someone that YHWH Father has not chosen to be worshiped or honored.

 

[hobelim]

Jesus is God for us or a "YHWH agent" (the top official representative of YHWH), which bears the Name of YHWH. So he is for all intents and purposes, YHWH to us. God with us.

A top representative of God is not God. And if everything that Jesus made known to the intelligent he learned from God and repeated exactly as he heard it, it still does not make him God in any way. God is only in and with you if the teaching that Jesus received from God is in and with you, the same teaching from God that was in and with Jesus. If that divine teaching is in you it does not make you God or divine, just like the teaching from God in Jesus didn't make Jesus God even if he was the Messiah which I do believe, Son of God being just a relational metaphor

I disagree with the Trinitarian position that asserts that Jesus is co-equal, co-eternal, consubstantial with the heavenly Father.

OK. So do I.

I believe that YHWH Father, is uniquely God, but His Son bears His Name, and hence functions as God. So if you worship Jesus, you are not committing idolatry. You commit idolatry when you worship something or someone that YHWH Father has not chosen to be worshiped or honored.

Jesus never functioned as God. Thats absurd. He said and did what he was told by God to do as a Jewish man chosen by God to reveal the wisdom of God hidden in the figurative language used in the Divine commands so that the door to heaven and eternal life was opened again to all.

Yes he should be honored and received like any royal dignitary, but thats a far cry from worship

 

[hobelim]

Remember, that's what got Lucifer kicked out of heaven. Yeshua did not think there was anything wrong with being equal to God.

So you are worshipping Lucifer by just another name?? That explains everything! Thanks.

You should have paid attention "Just as Moses lifted up the serpent (during the time of testing) in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up" John 3:14. This was a warning of a test. Jesus knew he would become the object of Idolatry like the serpent in the wilderness.

So ask yourself. What would Hezekiah do? And then just do it.

 

[beautress]

All who can think for self reasonably will answer-NO to the question.

One greater than Jesus gave him all authority in heaven and on earth- Matt 28:18---Fact-God has always had the authority, none can give it to him.
One greater than Jesus gave him the judging duties-John 5:27--God was already judge.
God was king-1Chron 16:31--One greater than Jesus appointed him to a kingship( Dan 7:13-15)--But then Jesus must hand back the kingdom( 1Cor 15:24-28) to his God and Father and subject himself---God is in subjection to no one.
Jesus and his real teachers teach Jesus has a God=his Father-John 20:17, Rev 3:12--2Cor 1:3, Eph 1:3, Col 1:3--1Pet 1:3) God does not have a God.
Jesus teaches he can do 0 of his own( John 5:19, 30)--God did all the powerful works-THROUGH-Jesus( Acts 2:22, 1 Cor 8:5-6)--God created all things-99.9% -THROUGH- Jesus( Col 1:16)--He created Jesus first and last direct=The firstborn of all creation( Col 1:15) The only begotten son.

There is no capitol G God to the word at John 1:1 in the Greek lexicons- The true God called-Ton Theon=God, the word called Theon=god when in the same paragraph with Ton Theon as 2 Cor 4:4 clearly shows, its why there is a difference. translating works the same at both spots.

All being mislead into worshipping a non existent trinity created at the councils of Catholicism are breaking Gods #1 commandment daily. Not somewhere one wants to be standing.---Think about these facts, God warned all-GET OUT OF HER.

Isaiah prophesied the Messiah's identity, this: "And his name shall be called Wonderful, Councillor, The Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace," Handel's Messiah sings Isaiah's scripture so very beautifully. And legend has it that Handel was picky, picky, picky, picky about the translations being accurate to the nth degree. I've heard that from more than one choirmasters I had the privilege of singing the Messiah by Handel under their devoted-to-the-Lord praises-style Chorales.

As for himself, Jesus Christ insisted that the Apostles that when they prayed, they must pray to the Father. And as an example, he used the Lord's Prayer as the example. This is found in the book of Luke, Chapter 11, verses 2-4. Luke chapter 11 KJV (King James Version)

And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.

2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

3 Give us day by day our daily bread.

4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

​

 

[hobelim]

"And his name shall be called Wonderful, Councillor, The Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace,"

Hezekiah;

etymology

From (1) the verb חזק (hazaq), to be strong, and (2) יה (yah), the shortened name of the Lord.

(Hazaq yah) Hezekiah,

 

[beautress]

Hezekiah;

etymology

From (1) the verb חזק (hazaq), to be strong, and (2) יה (yah), the shortened name of the Lord.

(Hazaq yah) Hezekiah,

So you have a contentious argument with those who interpreted the scriptures for those of us who speak in the English language, scripture written 3 or 4 thousand years ago? Eh, I'm sticking with my bible translations. I have several different versions of hte bible, but all of them say that Jesus upon their request, gave them the Lord's Prayer. And though you're having none of it, I still think that loves his followers including not only those who pored over scriptures to translate them accurately but also me. God is good, and he is to be trusted. I honor those who managed to translate the scripture as above at different times as being pretty close to the translations I have in my library at home.

 

[hobelim]

but all of them say that Jesus upon their request, gave them the Lord's Prayer.

So what is the will of God that Jesus taught people to pray to be done on earth?

If you don't know see Genesis 3:14 and then cast out whoever defiled your mind like a devil

 

[beautress]

So what is the will of God that Jesus taught people to pray to be done on earth?

If you don't know see Genesis 3:14 and then cast out whoever screwed up your mind like a demon

Jesus lives in my heart, hobelim, I hope you will please cease criticizing my religion and my love for Jesus, who is my Master.

 

[TruthNotBS]

I've noticed that you don't put the references when you claim to quote Scripture. Bad form there:

Philippians 2:

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Remember, that's what got Lucifer kicked out of heaven. Yeshua did not think there was anything wrong with being equal to God. You see, I've shown you multiple times the He lowered Himself to become one of us, and you keep ignoring it. I can't help you when you do that.

That's not what it says. It states that Christ was in His divine form or morphe (angelic, immortal body). YHWH Father and His angels are divine, immortal beings, but the Father is uniquely God because he is the original divinity. The non-contingent deity, unlike His angels. YHWH is a state of being, a pure infinite, transcendental consciousness, which brings all things into existence to embody and express YHWH's Nature (Name) and glory, adopting certain patterns of thought and behavior, that are conducive to life.

The pre-incarnate Christ, emptied Himself of his divine, immortal morphe or form, incarnating in the body of a mortal human being. He was stripped of His immortal, divine nature and began life in this world with all of the same vulnerabilities as a human being. He went from living in paradise, free of corruption, temptation, and death, to subjecting himself to all of the above. He passed the test and didn't just recover his position as commander of YHWH's armies and the firstborn, but took the keys of life and death away from His rival, Satan (Lucifer). He defeated Satan, embarrassing him before his fallen angels. Taking authority and power away from him.

He answered the question of Mika'EL. The name Mika'EL, is a question, directed at Satan and all of the angels, who doubted His authority and unique position as the firstborn of YHWH. His Name asks: "Who Is Like God?" A more literal translation is "Like God?", which is understood as the aforementioned question. Who is like God? The answer is, not Lucifer. Not Satan with his fallen angels.

The Sar Gadol (High Prince Of Heaven), mentioned in Daniel 12:1, is the pre-incarnate Christ and Firstborn of YHWH. He established His unique position, by stripping himself of His divine, immortal nature and adopting the lowly, earthly nature of a mortal man. The high-spirits or angels of YHWH's Kingdom had no doubt after witnessing what he did, essentially jumping into the pit of hell, on the edge of oblivion, that He was worthy to be their commander and chief, the Firstborn Son of YHWH. He could've sinned and fallen into corruption, just like us. He would've forfeited His divine, immortal state, becoming a mortal human being under condemnation, sentenced to death.
The secret that isn't being revealed to most Christians is that we are the fallen angels. We are now in hell. Hear this demon speak the truth:

​

"This is hell".

The Sar Gadol, the firstborn of YHWH, bears the Name of YHWH, in a unique and powerful way, unlike any other spirits in heaven. Lucifer tried to take the position of the Firstborn and failed. He was one of the angels on the crown of the Ark of the Covenant. He was a powerful high-ranking angel. He deceived us, and we fell with him.

The Son is like YHWH God, not Lucifer. Mika'El, who is like God? The Firstborn, not Lucifer. The Son proved it by coming down to hell to save us. We are in darkness, on the edge of the abyss (destruction). The Earth, under the control of Satan, is part of hell, we just don't realize it yet. The Son of YHWH essentially came down to hell and kept YHWH's laws perfectly, defeating death, through obedience to His Father's will.

Jesus is the firstborn of His kind. His disciples will one day be exactly like Him. We will be finally redeemed from this fallen condition and will reign with Him over the nations of a restored cosmos. A universe infused with divine glory, in such a way that all will be luminous and immortal. Free of corruption and death. Even science with its new James Webb Sattelite Telescope is discovering that what we thought was the universe is just a tiny part of it. There are fully developed galaxies that are older than what we thought was the universe. Some astrophysicists are considering the possibility that there is a mega-universe that is infinite, and we are just in a tiny area of that mega-infinite universe.

This region of the universe was created for us, to give us another chance. It's like a prison. Jesus saved us.

 

[ding]

Sure, fine. Where semantics enters the picture is asking whether there need be only one universe or many, and whether the many really still just constitute "the universe." How do we decide where one ends and another begins, especially from our puny position of observation?

Actually our position in the galaxy for observing the universe is quite good. I don't remember the specific statistics or why but many locations in our galaxy can't observe the universe. As for deciding the extent of our universe, does it matter? Models are in good agreement with observations. Everything points to a universe which popped into existence through paired particle production.

The Early Universe

 

[ding]

As to the corporeal statement, there is no reason not to believe that God cannot appear to us as a corporeal being or even AS a corporeal being as some plenary portion of himself.

I'm not really into limiting what God can or can't do. The nature of God is beyond our comprehension. The closest I can come is consciousness without form.

 

[ding]

All of the rules go straight out the window with God as, even if he should choose to appear as a corporeal being, it would be foolish to confuse him with any ordinary corporeal being and the limits therein. That is not to forget that some spark of his inner potency does not exist in all living things as the font of their living spirit.

Sure. About the only limitation that would make sense is that God can't oppose himself. My perception of God is that God is every extant attribute of reality. One of which is logic. So God wouldn't create an illogical universe as that would be opposing himself.

 

[ding]

If a passenger rides a bus, he can be said to be part of that bus, part of the ride, but the bus is not part of the passenger.
You are a subset or creation of God thus inexorably tied to God, but in an infinitesimal way; even if all of your being is part of God, it would be foolish to think you ARE God, with his capacities.

A grain of sand is all of itself part of the beach, but the beach can never be reduced to being only a grain of sand.

Is the passenger really part of the bus or is the passenger in the bus? Because the rest of your analogy makes sense that God is not in everything but is what connects everything without actually being everything.

 

[hobelim]

Jesus lives in my heart, hobelim, I hope you will please cease criticizing my religion and my love for Jesus, who is my Master.

You do know this is a thread exploring the question whether Jesus is God on a board set up to discuss religion and ethics. Many profess to believe that God is a trinity that became a human being, Jesus, and his torture and death was a sacrifice to God which exonerates "believers" from all accountability for their own sins, as if they were not subject to cause, sin, and effect , death.

How am I not supposed to respond to that addled tripe? Why shouldn't I question those ethics?

Im not questioning your "love" for Jesus. I see how easy it is for you to throw him under the bus.

 

[ding]

There are no incongruities, but sometimes truth appears to be contradictory to our ordinary human experience. That is the essence of a Zen koan.

I hope you don't mind if I disagree.

 

[ding]

This just shows that if even the most idiotic person out there runs their mouth for long enough eventually they will say something intelligent, even if they don't understand what they said at all.

Bravo!

What you might want to add to your speculations is how many species and types of God creatures are running amok on the earth. In the kingdom of God there are angels, demons, children of God, children of the devil, living beings, and the dead, wolves, dogs, swine that do not ruminate, teeming vermin that go down on all fours, sheep, goats, cattle, worms, parasites, bottom feeders, eagles, vultures, serpents, creepy things that creep, brown nose dorks, etc..

Pop quiz!

Of all those creatures which one, or hybrid of two, or hybrid of many, perfectly describes you?

Take your time.....

This is a textbook example of you feeding your ego.